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Rehzon![]() Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 9,798 |
Subject: Justice League vs Eternals Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 11:07:41 am EST (Viewed 505 times) |
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Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Cyborg Vs Makkari, Thena, Gilgamesh, Ikaris, Ajak, Sersi, Ultimus Who wins?
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Bk Ray![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 8,730 |
Subject: Re: Justice League vs Eternals [Re: Rehzon] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 11:23:00 am EST (Viewed 380 times) |
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Superman overpowers Gilgamesh Flash beats Makkeri, as the latter will try and make this a speedster fight Wonder Woman beats Thena Martian Manhunter and Sersi stalemate, with Sersi transmuting him and Manhunter changing himself back Ikaris wins a good fight against Aquaman Ultimus takes Cyborg quite handily Superman and Ultimus fight into the next round Wonder Woman takes down Sersi whilst still engaging with Manhunter Flash and Ikaris goes into the next round Manhunter and Wonder Woman help Superman and Flash beat the remaining Eternals. Moderator: Star Trek Board ''He stood alone at Gjallerbru... and that answer is enough.''
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RodimusPrime![]() Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008 Posts: 3,200 |
Subject: I don't know... [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 11:56:42 am EST (Viewed 369 times) |
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... I have a hard time going against the JLA in any team battle, but that Eternals group is roughly equivalent to the Hyperclan, and there's no weakness to exploit. I'm honestly not sure if there's any team that beats this group head on.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: If Flash or Sersi have a top end showing, they win on their own... [Re: Rehzon] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 11:56:47 am EST (Viewed 346 times) |
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Sersi's top showings could win the fight on her own. Flash stealing kinetic energy could potentially do the same...other than that... Other than that, however, the Eternals have too much depth, and their top guys can at least fight Superman for a long time. A couple JLA members are the first to go down, then numbers rule
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motifian![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,077 |
Subject: Re: If Flash or Sersi have a top end showing, they win on their own... [Re: Braugi] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 12:28:22 pm EST (Viewed 366 times) |
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Quote: Sersi's top showings could win the fight on her own.Like what? Quote: Flash stealing kinetic energy could potentially do the same...other than that...Flash has never been shown that powerful. Quote: Other than that, however, the Eternals have too much depth, and their top guys can at least fight Superman for a long time. A couple JLA members are the first to go down, then numbers ruleNot really. The only one near Superman is Ultimus from Thor 209. Rest are pretty much low top tiers.
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motifian![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,077 |
Subject: Re: I don't know... [Re: RodimusPrime] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 12:30:09 pm EST (Viewed 389 times) |
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Quote: ... I have a hard time going against the JLA in any team battle, but that Eternals group is roughly equivalent to the Hyperclan, and there's no weakness to exploit.Hyperclan were all Superman level beings. These aren't. Quote: I'm honestly not sure if there's any team that beats this group head on.The League has more power and team coordination.
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Bk Ray![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 8,730 |
Subject: There is no team cohesiveness [Re: RodimusPrime] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 12:49:45 pm EST (Viewed 351 times) |
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Ikaris and Thena don't particularly like each other. Gilgamesh basically operates as a standard brick. Makkeri is obsessed with speed so much, he has actually taken a loss on his other powers. He WILL attempt to match Flash speed for speed, which isn't going to help him. This will be similar to the Zum fight. Sersi doesn't really have an advantage over Manhunter. In theory Eternals are high end level beings, in reality they have around Class 25 strength, they are NOT class 100 powerhouses, apart from Gilgamesh and Ultimus, who has never operated with the rest of the team. Moderator: Star Trek Board ''He stood alone at Gjallerbru... and that answer is enough.''
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Primetime![]() Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009 Posts: 797 |
Subject: Re: There is no team cohesiveness [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 01:41:48 pm EST (Viewed 365 times) |
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Quote: Ikaris and Thena don't particularly like each other. Does that really matter? They have all known each other for millions of years. Quote: Gilgamesh basically operates as a standard brick.Gilgamesh has flight and energy projection (eye beams) that he uses often. He is trained in ancient combats and has called lightning down. Quote: Makkeri is obsessed with speed so much, he has actually taken a loss on his other powers. He WILL attempt to match Flash speed for speed, which isn't going to help him. This will be similar to the Zum fight.He is still around class 50 in strength along with that speed. Quote: Sersi doesn't really have an advantage over Manhunter.Why not? Quote: In theory Eternals are high end level beings, in reality they have around Class 25 strength, they are NOT class 100 powerhouses, apart from Gilgamesh and Ultimus, who has never operated with the rest of the team.Two of the others are around class 50 and Ikaris has a variety of powers.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Wally West Flash [Re: motifian] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:24:37 pm EST (Viewed 469 times) |
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showed he could easily dump almost anyone into the speed force, and was so good at manipulating kinetic energy he could even overcome a high end speedster (the evil version of impulse) in such a way as to suck all of his kinetic energy away and trap him as a statue. High end showings for him could literally freeze all his enemies in place by stealing their kinetic energy, or dumping them all in the speed force. Sersi during her Avengers run had some of the best showings in comics. She was able to casually transmute whole teams even overcoming effortlessly Iron Man's tech that specifically protected against transmutation. She turned Eternals into Aardvarks casually, leaving them powerless. She created illusory versions of Ikaris that weren't as powerful as Ike himself, but were able to fight independently. When fighting Atlanteans, she easily turned half of them to GI's and had them fight the other Atlanteans. Sprite, who specifically isn't as good at transmutation as Sersi, transmuted all the eternals to normal, powerless humans, across the entire planet. Here are a couple scans http://i.imgur.com/f515V5b.png http://i.imgur.com/9MPXvza.png Here's where she owns Hercules: http://i.imgur.com/P34GYwc.jpg So, a top end Sersi just transmutes all of the opponents to something powerless, and even top transmuters have not shown the ability to resist high end eternal transmutation. Fight over before it starts.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: They aren't class 100 powerhouses in general, though Ikaris has some good showings [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:29:21 pm EST (Viewed 333 times) |
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he's clearly behind Thor and Gilgamesh, I'd put him at Thing level, despite his lower listing...he's a peer to Firelord overall IMO. Thena's greatest power is her EP, Ikaris is the Jack of all trades. Sersi is best at transmutation and illusion. Ultimus is top tier overall. Sersi's EP is the equivalent of a 'class 100' energy producer. Aside from Sersi, Superman would be the favorite against any of them head to head IMO, but all of them are at or near top end in terms of EP, psi, and overall durability, with enough strength to be a threat to anyone but top end bricks...oh, and they can amp their strength too... BUT this group isn't going to have the best group cohesion, which does make them vulnerable.
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Bk Ray![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 8,730 |
Subject: Re: There is no team cohesiveness [Re: Primetime] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:31:03 pm EST (Viewed 355 times) |
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Gilgamesh is traditionally shown to be a peer of Hercules. Makkari's body is significantly weaker than the other eternals, he is no where near Class 50. He is no where near Class 20 the default setting for Eternals. Sersi has transmutation, which Manhunter can counter. He's stronger, faster and is at least the telepath she is is. Gilgamesh and Ultimus are the muscle. Thena and Ikaris are around Class 25. Moderator: Star Trek Board ''He stood alone at Gjallerbru... and that answer is enough.''
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Makkari's strength dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after his training with Fastforward (Buried Alien) [Re: Primetime] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:33:28 pm EST (Viewed 334 times) |
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It might have come back with some of the Eternals stories in the past 10-15 years, but he gave up most of his high end eternals powers in favor of speed...now, he did get SO fast at one point, and stuck that way that only the Flash knockoff could interact with him... Sped up Makkari functions at top end Flash speeds, and with greater strength and durability, but without speed tricks and speed force abilities...the way Flash often fights, he'd be in trouble, but use of speed force would give him the win, or I could see a double KO. Without his speed up (not sure if its a real powerup), he's fast enough to make the flash work for it, but also getting into strength levels and versatility that makes him a tough fight for Flash...a lot like Zum (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread)....
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Bk Ray![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 8,730 |
Subject: I think you have to be consistent [Re: Braugi] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:35:18 pm EST (Viewed 360 times) |
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A high end Sersi vs high end Flash, favours Flash in my opinion. A low end Sersi vs low end Flash, favours Sersi. However, I think a more natural fight would be: Thena vs Wonder Woman (the female warriors of the group) Sersi vs Manhunter (the versatile guys) Flash vs Makkari (the speedsters) In general high end showings will favour the JLA. Moderator: Star Trek Board ''He stood alone at Gjallerbru... and that answer is enough.''
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: on Gilgamesh [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:38:34 pm EST (Viewed 396 times) |
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In the oldest showings, he did fight Hercules evenly in hand to hand. In another old showing, he was powered up by the Celestials and still got beaten by Thor (but that same comic noted that while Ikaris wasn't as powerful as Thor or the Forgotten one, that it was the difference between mighty mammoths, putting Ike in a similar class, if a clear step down). The Avengers run consistently showed him as a peer to Thor, and had him using his EP frequently, as well as some of the other Eternal abilities. He used his psi to compensate for blindness when he was blinded (I don't remember why he couldn't heal at the time though) for instance. I'd say overall he's class 100 but not at the top of the level, despite the Hercules match, he doesn't seem to have been quite as strong as Thor, top end fighting ability, flight, and EP. A good match for early post crisis Superman, but outmatched physically certainly by post DOS Supes, though he'd make it a real fight IMO, because ANY class 100 is a threat IMO.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: High end Flash.... [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:44:24 pm EST (Viewed 330 times) |
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is fast enough that if he went for it from the start, yeah, he could take on anyone. BUT, Sersi operated at the higher end of her showings pretty consistently, with only a couple of lower end showings. In general, the way they all fight, in head to head matchups, I would probably favor Diana vs. Thena (though I think Thena is more powerful...I just don't think she'd be able to bring her most powerful ability to bear effectively in the fight), Sersi vs. MM is a tossup (though Sersi is more likely to have a 'better' showing, in which case she wins), and the way any Flash usually fights against either version of Makkari puts him at a disadvantage. In the rematch, of course, Flash uses speed force to beat the faster version of Makkari or uses an IM punch to beat the classic version like he did Zum...but in the first fight, I think Flash is the underdog. Its one of the challenges when dealing with characters like Flash, Sersi, or others like Surfer or Adam Warlock with the soul gem...they pulled out weird powers often enough that are game ending if used so they take away potential for dramatic effect...so they become plot devices and break suspension of disbelief.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: debatable.... [Re: motifian] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 02:49:37 pm EST (Viewed 359 times) |
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Hyperclan were all Martians, does that mean Superman level...I don't think any but the strongest martians are really as strong as Supes, for instance. Zum was likely faster, but in general, I'd put them all physically inferior to Superman...though likely superior in strength to all but Ultimus, Gilgamesh, and maybe a powerfully written Ikaris Yet, Thena's EP could well be among the best in the MU. Eternals can survive being blown apart and atomized. Sersi showed her psi was on par with an amped Exodus (who was still able to withstand a blindside telpathic assault from Professor X), and her transmutation and illusion were better than her psi. She was able to amp her strength to handle Hercules (though he may not have been immortal at the time...the timeline of when he was at half strength eludes me). Ultimus is certainly top tier overall. Gilgamesh as well, and probably more durable than any of the Hyperclan. Sersi more powerful as well, though not a physical powerhouse. Makkari pre speedup vs. Zum would be a pretty even fight IMO...post speedup he'd have the speed advantage, but still lose IMO.
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Primetime![]() Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009 Posts: 797 |
Subject: Re: Makkari's strength dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after his training with Fastforward (Buried Alien) [Re: Braugi] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 03:21:47 pm EST (Viewed 389 times) |
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Not sure what he is today. The scan below is fairly recent and it does show him using EP as well as punching out constructs. His blows seem to do as much damage as Tanalth's hammer shots. https://i.imgur.com/ThqdtzS.jpg
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RodimusPrime![]() Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008 Posts: 3,200 |
Subject: About Flash... [Re: motifian] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 05:57:33 pm EST (Viewed 363 times) |
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... Wally completely annihilated Anti-Monitor faster than any of the assembled heroes at the first Crisis could even see. So yes, he has actually been shown to be that powerful.
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Comicguy1![]() Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017 Posts: 1,511 |
Subject: Re: I Was Wondering About This Fight, Too. Who Is Ultimus? [Re: Rehzon] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 07:57:02 pm EST (Viewed 373 times) |
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Is he that Kree guy that showed up in the Operation Galactic Storm crossover from the 90's? If it is, he's an Eternal? I think that DC takes this because of Superman, The Flash and Martian Manhunter. The Eternals are gods, but they're not on the same power level as Odin, Zeus, etc. Cyborg and Aquaman are the weakest links for the DC team, but I think that they can pull it off.
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Comicguy1![]() Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017 Posts: 1,511 |
Subject: Re: Are Any Of The Eternals Resistant To Telepathy Or Mind Control? [Re: Braugi] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 07:58:33 pm EST (Viewed 362 times) |
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Between MM AND Aquaman, it might be too much for them.
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Comicguy1![]() Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017 Posts: 1,511 |
Subject: Re: Can The Eternals Form A Uni-Mind In This Fight? [Re: Bk Ray] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 07:59:46 pm EST (Viewed 278 times) |
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If so, that might do it against the JLA.
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RodimusPrime![]() Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008 Posts: 3,200 |
Subject: Re: Are Any Of The Eternals Resistant To Telepathy Or Mind Control? [Re: Comicguy1] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 08:16:51 pm EST (Viewed 381 times) |
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They've all got psi powers and resistances to one degree or another. I think J'onn probably tops any of them individually, but they can boost their abilities with cosmic power and shield each other as well.
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zvelf![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 12,415 |
Subject: Re: Justice League vs Eternals [Re: Rehzon] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 09:08:07 pm EST (Viewed 349 times) |
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Round 1: Superman beats Gilgamesh Wonder Woman beats Thena Makkari beats Flash (Barry) due to greater strength and durability; this fight happens in seconds Green Lantern (Hal) beats Ikaris Sersi and Martian Manhunter would fight for a while but Makkari helps Sersi out for the win Ultimus beats Aquaman Ajak beats Cyborg Round 2: Superman fights Ultimus and Ajak simultaneously for a while Sersi beats Wonder Woman, who had a rougher first round Green Lantern (Hal) beats Makkari Round 3: Ultimus and Ajak beat Superman but Ajak goes down Green Lantern (Hal) edges Sersi Round 4: Green Lantern (Hal) edges Ultimus, but given the damage both have sustained, it could easily go either way How to make an entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfMiOlIUGQw
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motifian![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,077 |
Subject: Re: About Flash... [Re: RodimusPrime] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 10:04:02 pm EST (Viewed 350 times) |
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Quote: ... Wally completely annihilated Anti-Monitor faster than any of the assembled heroes at the first Crisis could even see.Quote: So yes, he has actually been shown to be that powerful.That's one showing out of a thousand or so and Wally was supercharged by speed force. It's hardly an average showing.
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motifian![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,077 |
Subject: Re: debatable.... [Re: Braugi] Posted Thu Dec 28, 2017 at 10:12:34 pm EST (Viewed 402 times) |
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Quote: Hyperclan were all Martians, does that mean Superman level...I don't think any but the strongest martians are really as strong as Supes, for instance. In that arc, Martians were specifically stated to be as fast and strong as Superman. It's not true for every appearance though. Quote: Zum was likely faster, but in general, I'd put them all physically inferior to Superman...though likely superior in strength to all but Ultimus, Gilgamesh, and maybe a powerfully written IkarisThat's not what the comic showed. https://i.imgur.com/KL3qDtD.jpg Quote: Yet, Thena's EP could well be among the best in the MU. Eternals can survive being blown apart and atomized. Sersi showed her psi was on par with an amped Exodus (who was still able to withstand a blindside telpathic assault from Professor X), and her transmutation and illusion were better than her psi. She was able to amp her strength to handle Hercules (though he may not have been immortal at the time...the timeline of when he was at half strength eludes me).That's hardly their average showings. Super skrull has straight up beaten Sersi. She was totally useless against Hulk. Quote: Ultimus is certainly top tier overall. Gilgamesh as well, and probably more durable than any of the Hyperclan. Sersi more powerful as well, though not a physical powerhouse. Makkari pre speedup vs. Zum would be a pretty even fight IMO...post speedup he'd have the speed advantage, but still lose IMO.How is Gilgamesh any more durable than Hyperclan? For that he needs to be tougher than Superman too. Sersi isn't more powerful than J'onn.
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RodimusPrime![]() Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008 Posts: 3,200 |
Subject: Re: About Flash... [Re: motifian] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 05:18:33 am EST (Viewed 340 times) |
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You said never.
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123![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 21, 2017 Posts: 114 |
Subject: Re: Justice League vs Eternals [Re: Rehzon] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 01:03:25 pm EST (Viewed 340 times) |
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Sersi is the wild card. These 4 go on for a while: Superman / Gilgamesh Wonder Woman / Thena Flash / Makkari Manhunter / Ultimus These are quicker victories Ikaris beats Cyborg Ajak beats Aquaman Sersi beats Green Lantern Then the numbers win for the Eternals
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Actually, many of their powers are psi based, and it is one of their core disciplines [Re: Comicguy1] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 01:17:21 pm EST (Viewed 395 times) |
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Though presumably, Mentor (Alars) is the only one who is a level 5. Sersi is not particularly noted as a powerful psi among Eternals (and Thena is probably more powerful in that regard) but she has showed planetary psi (able to scan the entire planet), mind control, and free others from mind control. She also fought Exodus at his most powerful in a psi only battle...she lost, but he was one of the most powerful psychics on the MU Earth at the time (and resisted a surprise attack by Prof X). She was rattled when the charged energy from their fight caused an explosion, and he left. She got up and was ready to fight again, but did lose. http://i.imgur.com/Ch4HmDX.jpg She's more powerful than Ikaris in psi, but all Eternals have at least mid tier psi capability, and Sersi showed more than once that she is a top tier psi power, with both telekinesis and telepathy, as well as resistance and the ability to protect others.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Yeah, but consistently martians and daxamites have been 'near' Superman [Re: motifian] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 01:32:24 pm EST (Viewed 359 times) |
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not his equal. I know bio's don't mean much, but they consistently noted Protex was the closest to being a physical peer to Superman. As to 'Average showings' actually its not far off. Its true that one of Super Skrull's best showings was when he and Surfer fought multiple Eternals effectively, but that is one of their lower showings as a group, and they DID take them captive IIRC. When did she fight Hulk? Are you talking about the cosmic powered Hulk robot that was just as strong as the Hulk (but later reanimated by Doom and beaten by Pineapple Thing)? She wasn't ineffective there, and Ikaris was able to fight that Hulk fairly well, even if it was a losing fight. Sersi was able to turn him to stone for a time as well. As to gilgamesh vs. Hyperclan in durability: At base, Gilgamesh is about equal to Immortal Hercules, at least in the same ballpark, but as an eternal, with complete control over his molecules, he can reform from complete atomization, create force fields, etc. that makes him overall more durable. As to Sersi vs. Jonn...she's able to increase her strength with TK so as to own Hercules. Her psi is every bit as impressive as his. Transmutation at her level is absurd, and has owned very powerful opponents. Her EP is well beyond his.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Also, he mentioned having lifted the Earth and others thinking he was Atlas [Re: Braugi] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 01:49:05 pm EST (Viewed 380 times) |
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so there's a planetary feat And here he seems at least on par with Thor physically His eyebeams and Thor's hammer together bounce off, but then Gil goes after it and punches it into submission http://i.imgur.com/y406X8D.png http://i.imgur.com/JyUmTNZ.png IMO, Ikaris is Firelord level. Thena's best skill showings are more recent, and top tier, and probably is roughly Firelord level as well, and vs. Forgotten One has seemed stronger than a 25 ton listing (but then Firelord is listed as 50 and never really seemed like class 50...I put him and Ikaris more in classic Thing ballpark in terms of strength) Thena's combat skill should not be underrated either...see how a depowered Thena can function with tableware... http://i.imgur.com/wXMSUvO.png Makkari probably should be a bit lower, but is faster than the others. Gilgamesh is at least a solid class 100 with decent EP, some good speed showings (with very few showings overall), and enough psi to use it to compensate for blindness.
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Braugi![]() Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017 Posts: 855 |
Subject: Yeah, reviewing the more recent stuff, he seems to be back to his classic capabilities [Re: Primetime] Posted Fri Dec 29, 2017 at 01:51:32 pm EST (Viewed 327 times) |
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I don't know if he's retained lightspeed reaction and perception he had during his prominence in the Quasar years though...
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