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Author
Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,207



Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Cyborg

Vs

Makkari, Thena, Gilgamesh, Ikaris, Ajak, Sersi, Ultimus

Who wins?



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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,773



Superman overpowers Gilgamesh
Flash beats Makkeri, as the latter will try and make this a speedster fight
Wonder Woman beats Thena
Martian Manhunter and Sersi stalemate, with Sersi transmuting him and Manhunter changing himself back
Ikaris wins a good fight against Aquaman
Ultimus takes Cyborg quite handily

Superman and Ultimus fight into the next round
Wonder Woman takes down Sersi whilst still engaging with Manhunter
Flash and Ikaris goes into the next round

Manhunter and Wonder Woman help Superman and Flash beat the remaining Eternals.





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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


... I have a hard time going against the JLA in any team battle, but that Eternals group is roughly equivalent to the Hyperclan, and there's no weakness to exploit.

I'm honestly not sure if there's any team that beats this group head on.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


Sersi's top showings could win the fight on her own.

Flash stealing kinetic energy could potentially do the same...other than that...

Other than that, however, the Eternals have too much depth, and their top guys can at least fight Superman for a long time. A couple JLA members are the first to go down, then numbers rule


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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,544



    Quote:
    Sersi's top showings could win the fight on her own.


Like what?


    Quote:
    Flash stealing kinetic energy could potentially do the same...other than that...


Flash has never been shown that powerful.


    Quote:
    Other than that, however, the Eternals have too much depth, and their top guys can at least fight Superman for a long time. A couple JLA members are the first to go down, then numbers rule


Not really. The only one near Superman is Ultimus from Thor 209. Rest are pretty much low top tiers.



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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,544



    Quote:
    ... I have a hard time going against the JLA in any team battle, but that Eternals group is roughly equivalent to the Hyperclan, and there's no weakness to exploit.


Hyperclan were all Superman level beings. These aren't.


    Quote:
    I'm honestly not sure if there's any team that beats this group head on.


The League has more power and team coordination.




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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,773



Ikaris and Thena don't particularly like each other.

Gilgamesh basically operates as a standard brick.

Makkeri is obsessed with speed so much, he has actually taken a loss on his other powers. He WILL attempt to match Flash speed for speed, which isn't going to help him. This will be similar to the Zum fight.

Sersi doesn't really have an advantage over Manhunter.

In theory Eternals are high end level beings, in reality they have around Class 25 strength, they are NOT class 100 powerhouses, apart from Gilgamesh and Ultimus, who has never operated with the rest of the team.





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Primetime


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 701



    Quote:

    Ikaris and Thena don't particularly like each other.


Does that really matter? They have all known each other for millions of years.


    Quote:
    Gilgamesh basically operates as a standard brick.


Gilgamesh has flight and energy projection (eye beams) that he uses often. He is trained in ancient combats and has called lightning down.


    Quote:
    Makkeri is obsessed with speed so much, he has actually taken a loss on his other powers. He WILL attempt to match Flash speed for speed, which isn't going to help him. This will be similar to the Zum fight.


He is still around class 50 in strength along with that speed.


    Quote:
    Sersi doesn't really have an advantage over Manhunter.


Why not?


    Quote:
    In theory Eternals are high end level beings, in reality they have around Class 25 strength, they are NOT class 100 powerhouses, apart from Gilgamesh and Ultimus, who has never operated with the rest of the team.


Two of the others are around class 50 and Ikaris has a variety of powers.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


showed he could easily dump almost anyone into the speed force, and was so good at manipulating kinetic energy he could even overcome a high end speedster (the evil version of impulse) in such a way as to suck all of his kinetic energy away and trap him as a statue.

High end showings for him could literally freeze all his enemies in place by stealing their kinetic energy, or dumping them all in the speed force.

Sersi during her Avengers run had some of the best showings in comics. She was able to casually transmute whole teams even overcoming effortlessly Iron Man's tech that specifically protected against transmutation. She turned Eternals into Aardvarks casually, leaving them powerless. She created illusory versions of Ikaris that weren't as powerful as Ike himself, but were able to fight independently.

When fighting Atlanteans, she easily turned half of them to GI's and had them fight the other Atlanteans.

Sprite, who specifically isn't as good at transmutation as Sersi, transmuted all the eternals to normal, powerless humans, across the entire planet.

Here are a couple scans
http://i.imgur.com/f515V5b.png
http://i.imgur.com/9MPXvza.png



Here's where she owns Hercules:
http://i.imgur.com/P34GYwc.jpg

So, a top end Sersi just transmutes all of the opponents to something powerless, and even top transmuters have not shown the ability to resist high end eternal transmutation. Fight over before it starts.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


he's clearly behind Thor and Gilgamesh, I'd put him at Thing level, despite his lower listing...he's a peer to Firelord overall IMO.

Thena's greatest power is her EP, Ikaris is the Jack of all trades. Sersi is best at transmutation and illusion. Ultimus is top tier overall.

Sersi's EP is the equivalent of a 'class 100' energy producer.

Aside from Sersi, Superman would be the favorite against any of them head to head IMO, but all of them are at or near top end in terms of EP, psi, and overall durability, with enough strength to be a threat to anyone but top end bricks...oh, and they can amp their strength too...

BUT this group isn't going to have the best group cohesion, which does make them vulnerable.


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,773



Gilgamesh is traditionally shown to be a peer of Hercules.

Makkari's body is significantly weaker than the other eternals, he is no where near Class 50. He is no where near Class 20 the default setting for Eternals.

Sersi has transmutation, which Manhunter can counter. He's stronger, faster and is at least the telepath she is is.

Gilgamesh and Ultimus are the muscle. Thena and Ikaris are around Class 25.





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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


It might have come back with some of the Eternals stories in the past 10-15 years, but he gave up most of his high end eternals powers in favor of speed...now, he did get SO fast at one point, and stuck that way that only the Flash knockoff could interact with him...

Sped up Makkari functions at top end Flash speeds, and with greater strength and durability, but without speed tricks and speed force abilities...the way Flash often fights, he'd be in trouble, but use of speed force would give him the win, or I could see a double KO.

Without his speed up (not sure if its a real powerup), he's fast enough to make the flash work for it, but also getting into strength levels and versatility that makes him a tough fight for Flash...a lot like Zum (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread)....


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,773



A high end Sersi vs high end Flash, favours Flash in my opinion. A low end Sersi vs low end Flash, favours Sersi. However, I think a more natural fight would be:

Thena vs Wonder Woman (the female warriors of the group)
Sersi vs Manhunter (the versatile guys)
Flash vs Makkari (the speedsters)

In general high end showings will favour the JLA.





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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


In the oldest showings, he did fight Hercules evenly in hand to hand.

In another old showing, he was powered up by the Celestials and still got beaten by Thor (but that same comic noted that while Ikaris wasn't as powerful as Thor or the Forgotten one, that it was the difference between mighty mammoths, putting Ike in a similar class, if a clear step down).

The Avengers run consistently showed him as a peer to Thor, and had him using his EP frequently, as well as some of the other Eternal abilities. He used his psi to compensate for blindness when he was blinded (I don't remember why he couldn't heal at the time though) for instance.

I'd say overall he's class 100 but not at the top of the level, despite the Hercules match, he doesn't seem to have been quite as strong as Thor, top end fighting ability, flight, and EP. A good match for early post crisis Superman, but outmatched physically certainly by post DOS Supes, though he'd make it a real fight IMO, because ANY class 100 is a threat IMO.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


is fast enough that if he went for it from the start, yeah, he could take on anyone.

BUT, Sersi operated at the higher end of her showings pretty consistently, with only a couple of lower end showings.

In general, the way they all fight, in head to head matchups, I would probably favor Diana vs. Thena (though I think Thena is more powerful...I just don't think she'd be able to bring her most powerful ability to bear effectively in the fight), Sersi vs. MM is a tossup (though Sersi is more likely to have a 'better' showing, in which case she wins), and the way any Flash usually fights against either version of Makkari puts him at a disadvantage. In the rematch, of course, Flash uses speed force to beat the faster version of Makkari or uses an IM punch to beat the classic version like he did Zum...but in the first fight, I think Flash is the underdog.

Its one of the challenges when dealing with characters like Flash, Sersi, or others like Surfer or Adam Warlock with the soul gem...they pulled out weird powers often enough that are game ending if used so they take away potential for dramatic effect...so they become plot devices and break suspension of disbelief.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


Hyperclan were all Martians, does that mean Superman level...I don't think any but the strongest martians are really as strong as Supes, for instance.

Zum was likely faster, but in general, I'd put them all physically inferior to Superman...though likely superior in strength to all but Ultimus, Gilgamesh, and maybe a powerfully written Ikaris

Yet, Thena's EP could well be among the best in the MU. Eternals can survive being blown apart and atomized. Sersi showed her psi was on par with an amped Exodus (who was still able to withstand a blindside telpathic assault from Professor X), and her transmutation and illusion were better than her psi. She was able to amp her strength to handle Hercules (though he may not have been immortal at the time...the timeline of when he was at half strength eludes me).

Ultimus is certainly top tier overall. Gilgamesh as well, and probably more durable than any of the Hyperclan. Sersi more powerful as well, though not a physical powerhouse. Makkari pre speedup vs. Zum would be a pretty even fight IMO...post speedup he'd have the speed advantage, but still lose IMO.



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Primetime


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 701


Not sure what he is today. The scan below is fairly recent and it does show him using EP as well as punching out constructs. His blows seem to do as much damage as Tanalth's hammer shots.

https://i.imgur.com/ThqdtzS.jpg


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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


... Wally completely annihilated Anti-Monitor faster than any of the assembled heroes at the first Crisis could even see.

So yes, he has actually been shown to be that powerful.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,466


Is he that Kree guy that showed up in the Operation Galactic Storm crossover from the 90's? If it is, he's an Eternal?

I think that DC takes this because of Superman, The Flash and Martian Manhunter. The Eternals are gods, but they're not on the same power level as Odin, Zeus, etc. Cyborg and Aquaman are the weakest links for the DC team, but I think that they can pull it off.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,466


Between MM AND Aquaman, it might be too much for them.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,466


If so, that might do it against the JLA.


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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


They've all got psi powers and resistances to one degree or another. I think J'onn probably tops any of them individually, but they can boost their abilities with cosmic power and shield each other as well.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,645


Round 1:
Superman beats Gilgamesh
Wonder Woman beats Thena
Makkari beats Flash (Barry) due to greater strength and durability; this fight happens in seconds
Green Lantern (Hal) beats Ikaris
Sersi and Martian Manhunter would fight for a while but Makkari helps Sersi out for the win
Ultimus beats Aquaman
Ajak beats Cyborg

Round 2:
Superman fights Ultimus and Ajak simultaneously for a while
Sersi beats Wonder Woman, who had a rougher first round
Green Lantern (Hal) beats Makkari

Round 3:
Ultimus and Ajak beat Superman but Ajak goes down
Green Lantern (Hal) edges Sersi

Round 4:
Green Lantern (Hal) edges Ultimus, but given the damage both have sustained, it could easily go either way





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,544



    Quote:
    ... Wally completely annihilated Anti-Monitor faster than any of the assembled heroes at the first Crisis could even see.



    Quote:
    So yes, he has actually been shown to be that powerful.


That's one showing out of a thousand or so and Wally was supercharged by speed force.

It's hardly an average showing.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,544



    Quote:
    Hyperclan were all Martians, does that mean Superman level...I don't think any but the strongest martians are really as strong as Supes, for instance.


In that arc, Martians were specifically stated to be as fast and strong as Superman. It's not true for every appearance though.


    Quote:
    Zum was likely faster, but in general, I'd put them all physically inferior to Superman...though likely superior in strength to all but Ultimus, Gilgamesh, and maybe a powerfully written Ikaris


That's not what the comic showed.

https://i.imgur.com/KL3qDtD.jpg


    Quote:
    Yet, Thena's EP could well be among the best in the MU. Eternals can survive being blown apart and atomized. Sersi showed her psi was on par with an amped Exodus (who was still able to withstand a blindside telpathic assault from Professor X), and her transmutation and illusion were better than her psi. She was able to amp her strength to handle Hercules (though he may not have been immortal at the time...the timeline of when he was at half strength eludes me).


That's hardly their average showings. Super skrull has straight up beaten Sersi. She was totally useless against Hulk.


    Quote:
    Ultimus is certainly top tier overall. Gilgamesh as well, and probably more durable than any of the Hyperclan. Sersi more powerful as well, though not a physical powerhouse. Makkari pre speedup vs. Zum would be a pretty even fight IMO...post speedup he'd have the speed advantage, but still lose IMO.


How is Gilgamesh any more durable than Hyperclan? For that he needs to be tougher than Superman too.

Sersi isn't more powerful than J'onn.


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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


You said never.


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123


Member Since: Fri Jul 21, 2017
Posts: 114


Sersi is the wild card.

These 4 go on for a while:
Superman / Gilgamesh
Wonder Woman / Thena
Flash / Makkari
Manhunter / Ultimus

These are quicker victories
Ikaris beats Cyborg
Ajak beats Aquaman
Sersi beats Green Lantern

Then the numbers win for the Eternals


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


Though presumably, Mentor (Alars) is the only one who is a level 5.

Sersi is not particularly noted as a powerful psi among Eternals (and Thena is probably more powerful in that regard) but she has showed planetary psi (able to scan the entire planet), mind control, and free others from mind control. She also fought Exodus at his most powerful in a psi only battle...she lost, but he was one of the most powerful psychics on the MU Earth at the time (and resisted a surprise attack by Prof X). She was rattled when the charged energy from their fight caused an explosion, and he left. She got up and was ready to fight again, but did lose.

http://i.imgur.com/Ch4HmDX.jpg

She's more powerful than Ikaris in psi, but all Eternals have at least mid tier psi capability, and Sersi showed more than once that she is a top tier psi power, with both telekinesis and telepathy, as well as resistance and the ability to protect others.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


not his equal. I know bio's don't mean much, but they consistently noted Protex was the closest to being a physical peer to Superman.

As to 'Average showings' actually its not far off. Its true that one of Super Skrull's best showings was when he and Surfer fought multiple Eternals effectively, but that is one of their lower showings as a group, and they DID take them captive IIRC.

When did she fight Hulk? Are you talking about the cosmic powered Hulk robot that was just as strong as the Hulk (but later reanimated by Doom and beaten by Pineapple Thing)? She wasn't ineffective there, and Ikaris was able to fight that Hulk fairly well, even if it was a losing fight.

Sersi was able to turn him to stone for a time as well.



As to gilgamesh vs. Hyperclan in durability: At base, Gilgamesh is about equal to Immortal Hercules, at least in the same ballpark, but as an eternal, with complete control over his molecules, he can reform from complete atomization, create force fields, etc. that makes him overall more durable.

As to Sersi vs. Jonn...she's able to increase her strength with TK so as to own Hercules. Her psi is every bit as impressive as his. Transmutation at her level is absurd, and has owned very powerful opponents. Her EP is well beyond his.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


so there's a planetary feat
And here he seems at least on par with Thor physically

His eyebeams and Thor's hammer together bounce off, but then Gil goes after it and punches it into submission

http://i.imgur.com/y406X8D.png

http://i.imgur.com/JyUmTNZ.png

IMO, Ikaris is Firelord level.

Thena's best skill showings are more recent, and top tier, and probably is roughly Firelord level as well, and vs. Forgotten One has seemed stronger than a 25 ton listing (but then Firelord is listed as 50 and never really seemed like class 50...I put him and Ikaris more in classic Thing ballpark in terms of strength)

Thena's combat skill should not be underrated either...see how a depowered Thena can function with tableware...

http://i.imgur.com/wXMSUvO.png

Makkari probably should be a bit lower, but is faster than the others.

Gilgamesh is at least a solid class 100 with decent EP, some good speed showings (with very few showings overall), and enough psi to use it to compensate for blindness.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 786


I don't know if he's retained lightspeed reaction and perception he had during his prominence in the Quasar years though...


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