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Urban Cowboy


Member Since: Tue Sep 14, 2010
Posts: 591


I recently saw that saying used in a youtube match-up where the speaker compared two marvel characters. In my opinion Batman as more fight (in this sense of the word) in him than Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc. In recent times Aquaman has come close.

But using Batman as a baseline, him being with him being 100, where would you put other DC or Marvel characters?


For example,

Batman: 100

Aquaman: 95

Nightwing: 90
Wonder Woman: 90

Superman: 75
(I'd have Captain America near here too.)

Cyborg: 70



How about the Flash, Thor, Iron Man, Black Panther, Spiderman, Hawkeye, X-Men, Fantastic Four, JSA, rest of JL, etc.?

This isn't who would win in a fight, or who has the most fighting skill, just who has most "fight" in them.




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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 362


Given the batman factor, we will give him 100. On your scores, I would definitely bump wonder woman to a 95. The others I agree with. On the marvel side:

Thor, wolverine, Thing, Captain America - 95
spiderman, black panther, hawkeye - 90
iron man, sue richards - 70
reed richards - 45


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123


Member Since: Fri Jul 21, 2017
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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,860


Assuming Batman is a 100:

Wonder Woman - 100, she is the god-created warrior.

Superman - 80, he would never quite but deep down he doesn't have the warrior/fighter mindset.

Wolverine - 105, given all the crap he has been through and keeps going.

Ben Grimm/The Thing - 105, as the Champion noted he will never give up.

Hulk - 110, due to rage and too stubborn.

Thor - 110, having every bone in his body broken, ground to paste, and staring down Ragnarok

Hercules - 95, tough but as some issues.

Marvel Ares - 90, he loves to fight but tends to run when things get tough.

Martian Manhunter - 85

Iron Man - 75

Spider-Man - 70

Starfire - 100

Orion of the New Gods - 115

Captain America - 100

Black Panther - 100

Doctor Doom - 100

Conan - 95

Red Sonja - 100

Kull - 90

Black Widow - 95





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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 362


Thor is my guy, by a long shot. I agree with you and dont like it either. But this is comics. Batman always get the Batman factor.


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Marv


Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 3,926


There are few warriors with as much tenacity, and that kind of leads him to his character flaw, his arrogance. Maybe Wolverine or Frank Castle can be considered similarly tenacious and long lasting in their will to fight. Bats has his parent induced trauma, sure, and his will to fight is solid, but he is driven by his pursuit of justice, which makes him very tenacious, but usually not arrogant enough or ferocious enough to mantain a fight if he doesnt have to. He can and does retreat to fight another day. Those 3, would most likely fight the fight untill they either win, or are dead on the ground.

Of course there are exceptions, but i figure on an average those 3 would be between 150 and 200 to Batman's 100


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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 362


Like I said, Thor is my favorite. But put it a different way. Take away all of Thor's powers, all of both of their weapons, costumes, etc. Just normal human strength and all of their skills and throw them in a cage with proper motivation in a fight to the death. Who wins?


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


and I think the set up of the question gets a bit complicated. How you want to call these things is a little loaded.

Do heroes like Thor or Superman have to try? There are instances of them going further than nearly anybody. Thor against the Celestials or Galactus and so on. He has done this before and often.

That said, they are also top tier guys. In most situations they are not threatened by the more standard villain or criminal. Do they need to try or have that uphill battle their where grit alone will win the day. Hard to say that when they can win by flicking the guy on the nose.

If one consider a Batman or Punisher than those day to day guys are more of a threat. A stray bullet will do the job. Every fight they have is uphill so to speak and it is a comment on their determination and will that they can swing out of their weight classes (I am not saying Batman and Punisher are equal either, just an example).

IMO, it is not hard to point out that Thor and the like are full of whatever you want to call determination. However, not every situation demands that they do so. It is rarer that they would than other guys.

I feel conversations like this are meant to highlight the lower tier guys as opposed to poop on the higher tier guys. It is like when somebody says someone is pound for pound the strongest or whatever.




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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,229


Aren't all heroes depicted as being willing to take on impossible odds? Don't they all suffer excruciating pain and loss? Aren't they all willing to sacrifice their very lives? It's not like you're going to see any hero run away in fear and leave innocents to die.


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,229


Is he not as heroic as any of the others?


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Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,991




    Quote:
    I recently saw that saying used in a youtube match-up where the speaker compared two marvel characters. In my opinion Batman as more fight (in this sense of the word) in him than Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc. In recent times Aquaman has come close.




    Quote:
    But using Batman as a baseline, him being with him being 100, where would you put other DC or Marvel characters?


As far as who has the most fight in them, shouldn't the Hulk be at 1000? Isn't that his thing?

And yes, like some have already said, Thor has a lot of fight in him. In both the movie and the Lee/Kirby comic, it played a part of why he was banished to earth in the first place. (Odin thought that his son should have more balance with humility and wisdom.)



    Quote:

    For example,



    Quote:
    Batman: 100



    Quote:
    Aquaman: 95



    Quote:
    Nightwing: 90
    Wonder Woman: 90



    Quote:
    Superman: 75
    (I'd have Captain America near here too.)



    Quote:
    Cyborg: 70



    Quote:
    How about the Flash, Thor, Iron Man, Black Panther, Spiderman, Hawkeye, X-Men, Fantastic Four, JSA, rest of JL, etc.?



    Quote:
    This isn't who would win in a fight, or who has the most fighting skill, just who has most "fight" in them.


First let me put aside who has the most fight in them, and start with who has the least. IMHO that would be Reed Richards. That's partly because he's more intellectual than emotional, but even among smart guys (and Marvel has a plethora of smart heroes), he's less of a "fighter" than Doom, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, T'Challa, Hank McCoy, Peter Parker, Lex Luthor, Angus Mcgyver, Mr Spock, and if course Bruce Wayne. He can beat every one of those people intellectually, but whose got a fighting heart, he'll come in last. As smart as he his, he need his best friend to tell him when "it's clobbern time".

BTW, this doesn't mean he's less heroic than anyone else. Pacificts can be heroic people, and expert fighters can be bullies.

Reed wife Sue has more fight in her. I'm actually surprised that I didn't see her mentioned in any of the posts. She'd probably take out the Hulk if she believed he was endangering her children! (Not even saying that she's a better fighter, just that she can take him out if she's motivated enough!)








Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,195



Both WW and Thor were willing to blind themselves to achieve success.

Buffy in the meantime has gone against multiple more powerful beings, including a God. She's sacrificed her redeemed boyfriend, sacrificed herself, taken on the Master despite knowing the prophecy would mean her death, multiple times she's fought when powerless or injured etc.

Batman would use his mind to try and win any fight. Buffy would put herself through hell to win.







Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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Thurisaz


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,996



    Quote:
    Is he not as heroic as any of the others?


He's had some 'incidents.' One More Day and his deal with Mephisto is certainly enough to knock him down a few points.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,787



A case can be made to give Superman a 100 as well. He never gives up and just keeps going, no matter what hits him. When John Henry Irons died, he went through a LOT just to make sure the man got resurrected. And Clark would do anything for Lois, no matter what he has to go through to get it. He even fought for 1,000 years in Valhalla with Wonder Woman against a demonic horde, never giving up even though he thought Lois was long dead. I've seen him literally be able to endure that which broke Batman (See The Emperor Joker storyline for more details...or ask me and I'll tell you). Of course, it all depends on the story and what the writer intends as I have seen Superman give up too easily.






It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 721


To me it isn't about going up against overwhelming odds...every superhero does that...but its about after you've taken a beating, and anyone else would be KO'd, unable to rise, etc. and you keep coming.

OR, its about being in the thick of combat and using the battlefield to your advantage.

I don't think Bats is the highest in this. Batman is good at removing himself from combat and prepping vs. a weakness, but without that plan, Killer Croc is really dangerous...
So, by that criteria, I put Cap ahead of Bats....some others to note...

The whole Champion vs. Thing boxing match highlighted Thing as the top of the heap there.

Superman's fight with Doomsday was a good example, and Thor has more than his fair share of these showings.

Actually, for about 4 years, I'd have put Green Arrow above Bats...when he was gritty and tough, but that was a short lived phenomenon.

For some reason, I see Wildcat above Bats in this regard as well.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 721


when most anyone else would quit, either because they physically can't go on or because they give up.

Even under immense odds, most heroes don't 'give up', but when they get beaten down, they may not get up where the guys with the most 'fight' or mental toughness don't.

Thor's functioning while under Hela's curse is a pretty impressive example, as is both Thor and Superman's performances under Jurgens vs. Destroyer and Doomsday respectively.




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Oliva


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,471


People tend to forget that Thor is really old.. LITERALLY Centuries before the likes of Batman, Superman, Captain America, etc. were born Thor was fighting Demons of all kinds, Trolls, Storm Giants that measures over 300 feet tall, Aliens with sophisticated technology ahead of our present day tech. by thousands if not millions of years more advanced. Every possible scenario you could practically think of, Thor has had the experience. His heart would be practically still under such threats; if not, why would he talk down on a Celestial (Arishen) that has the power to conceivably destroy worlds with but a gesture; never mind the ONE Above All- who he attacked. It's extremely hard to stop someone like him when he's really ticked off.. Batman, captain America and others should be asking Thor for advice.. I think that if someone like Thanos wouldn't use his innate powers and especially siphoning energies from some mysterious source; likewise Thor would not use his hammer and his innate powers- in such a physical confrontation to the death- Thanos would not last a minute. I don't care how some would say that Thanos could take a beaten and such- Thor would kill him, and he would do this quickly...

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Skill_Capi.jpg

Here, Grog is vastly superior in strength and durability- and he's virtually no match against a seriously ticked off Thor.. Remember, a weak and mortal Thor was physically tortured for days non-stop before this confrontation..

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Grog_6.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Grog_7.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Grog_8.jpg

Like I said, it's hard to stop someone that supposed to fight months non-stop in the day of Ragnorak, and no futuristic advanced fighting skills could stop him.

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Man-Beast_2.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Man-Beast_3.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Man-Beast_4.jpg

80 days and night non-stop w/o food or water- no problem for someone who is so determine to stop his enemies.. Tell me, how can you stop someone with that kind of such vast experience, will power and resolution?


http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Skill-2.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Skill-3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/58897/1703055-thorsuperspeed18a428.jpg




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Urban Cowboy


Member Since: Tue Sep 14, 2010
Posts: 591


Yeah, I was thinking of all those things, fighting skill and spirit, ability to take punishment, all the rest.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


My intent is not to diminish Thor. It is just to remind of context. Even the example you gave is about significant odds. We usually judge this sort of thing in that context.

Your are right that the ability to fight through despite all of that is key. However, I would still argue that this is more an exercise to play up lower tier characters than to diminish more powerful ones. They have to push harder in general that the more top tier guys in each situation.

Of course all superheroes have that gut check moment, some have many if they have been around in comics long enough.

I am just trying to explain my thoughts on what is meant. I do not think it is a knock on Thor, Superman or whomever else. It is more a matter of admiring the determination to heroes that may not even have powers in the first place.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 721


applies regardless of 'level'. Lower level characters have more opportunities to showcase the ability, but aren't necessarily higher on the scale.

Mockingbird, for instance, in Emperor Doom, didn't have the willpower to resist Purple Man's influence...she didn't have the will to fight it or the mental fortitude....she's nowhere near top tier in that regard.




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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,229


If you're facing superior odds, you're facing superior odds. What does it matter how powerful you are if the odds you're facing are still superior to you?

Superior to Daredevil might be one of Spiderman's rogues. Superior to Superman might be a cosmically powerful being. But if Daredevil is fighting on in the face of probable death against the Spiderman villain, and Superman is fighting on in the face of probable death against the cosmically powerful villain, what's the difference?


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