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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861


I noticed something I never saw before, but in the DC/Marvel crossover, there's actually a small art piece showing Darkseid and Thanos matching eye beam for eye beam, neither having any advantage. Their fight is mostly off panel but throughout the series, it was unquestionably implied that their fight was more than just some brief encounter. People point out that Orion's loss to Surfer carries weight because it represents an author's (John Byrne's) interpretation of how the fight would really happen despite not being canon, yet we see here that the same logic points to Darkseid and Thanos being evenly matched.

I don't know why people point out Orion's loss to Surfer, are they willing to accept the logical consequences?




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Man-Beast


Member Since: Wed Jul 09, 2014
Posts: 352



    Quote:
    willing to accept the logical consequences


I'm not sure what you're implying the logical consequences are here.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831



Some people will come up with some of the most "interesting" excuses. And I am being nice by saying "interesting".

Some of them include things like what you said, plus:

"That feat occurred 30 years ago, it no longer counts."

Of course, I've used that too and this excuse "does" have at least some merit, but it doesn't work for every character nor for all debates. I've also heard:

"Is the character's feats consistent? They aren't? They don't count."

"This character is not a team buster, he's only done it once. It's an outlier and to be ignored."

"This character has no lifting feats so he is NOT stronger than my favorite character." (Despite the fact, said character has beaten other characters capable of beating his favorite character, with the scans to prove it).

"Does this character do this kind of feat consistently over the course of time? They don't? They don't count." (This excuse makes people justified in claiming Superman cannot fight or does not know how when he CAN fight)

"She demolished that guy!"

"No she didn't, all she did was hold him by the throat."

"Did you read the issue? She BEAT him!"

*Shows Scan that clearly shows otherwise* "No, she didn't. She did not win that fight!"

"SHE DEMOLISHED HIM!"

I can go on and on with the endless excuses but you get the point. So, it sounds like these guys with Orion and Silver Surfer are just trying to make excuses here.

Now, to answer your question: Thanos DEMOLISHES Darkseid in a real fight. No ifs, ands or buts about it.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 429


n/t


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UName


Member Since: Tue Mar 10, 2015
Posts: 900


That is, a fight that is taking place in a sanctioned and actually published comic book (but a movie or tv-show would do just as well I guess), I think the probability they will be portrayed as equals, or close enough to it, is pretty good.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517





    Quote:
    Now, to answer your question: Thanos DEMOLISHES Darkseid in a real fight. No ifs, ands or buts about it.


Uh-huh.

Darkseid wins easily.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831



Uh-huh.

That's not what happened in DC Vs. Marvel. They fought to a stalemate and had to be prevented from finishing their fight because it lasted so long. ;\)





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:
    That is, a fight that is taking place in a sanctioned and actually published comic book (but a movie or tv-show would do just as well I guess), I think the probability they will be portrayed as equals, or close enough to it, is pretty good.


I don’t think anyone would dispute this, Busiek even implied Darkseid was superior in JLA/Avengers because there’s an interview where he directly answered someone and said the imitation is never as good as the original.




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861


Tried responding to your question but it said SPAM and was detected and prevented me. Anyway, the logical consequences where pretty straight forward - that you cannot isolate Orion vs Surfer with any level of authority if you’re not willing to accept the bad parts of the ‘96 Dc/Marvel Crossover, namely Darkseid and Thanos fighting to a standstill, Batman KO’ing Carnage, Venom beatingSuperman.... those weren’t voted outcomes. You either accept the whole, discard the whole, but never isolate fights when it suits you.

It was explained to me that there are different levels of hierarchy when deciding battle outcomes - what is canon, handbooks, author Q/A’s, crossover battles, etc., and that Surfer vs Orion could be used as evidence of a likely outcome because John Byrne wrote it and the story was agreed by both companies. So okay, fine, but there’s Batman, Carnage, venom, Superman, etc. that are equally arguable by those standards. This logic allows Batman to beat up Carnage with his mere fists every time. Further, it’s then likely he could do the same to Venom or Spider-Man since they’re all so similar. Spider-Man also beats up on Scorpion, he’s an arachnid, too so... Lots of consequences.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



    Quote:
    I noticed something I never saw before, but in the DC/Marvel crossover, there's actually a small art piece showing Darkseid and Thanos matching eye beam for eye beam, neither having any advantage. Their fight is mostly off panel but throughout the series, it was unquestionably implied that their fight was more than just some brief encounter. People point out that Orion's loss to Surfer carries weight because it represents an author's (John Byrne's) interpretation of how the fight would really happen despite not being canon, yet we see here that the same logic points to Darkseid and Thanos being evenly matched.



    Quote:
    I don't know why people point out Orion's loss to Surfer, are they willing to accept the logical consequences?


Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account. This is just one showing. I agree that Darkseid should be positioned as an equal to Thanos as the consummate teambuster, but until the New 52, that hasn't often been the case. Even here as you point out, we see that Thanos' eye blasts are seen as equal to Darkseid's omegas. Thanos' eye blasts are just a typical attack for him. Darkseid's omegas represent the pinnacle of his power.

Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.

Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I noticed something I never saw before, but in the DC/Marvel crossover, there's actually a small art piece showing Darkseid and Thanos matching eye beam for eye beam, neither having any advantage. Their fight is mostly off panel but throughout the series, it was unquestionably implied that their fight was more than just some brief encounter. People point out that Orion's loss to Surfer carries weight because it represents an author's (John Byrne's) interpretation of how the fight would really happen despite not being canon, yet we see here that the same logic points to Darkseid and Thanos being evenly matched.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I don't know why people point out Orion's loss to Surfer, are they willing to accept the logical consequences?



    Quote:
    Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account. This is just one showing. I agree that Darkseid should be positioned as an equal to Thanos as the consummate teambuster, but until the New 52, that hasn't often been the case. Even here as you point out, we see that Thanos' eye blasts are seen as equal to Darkseid's omegas. Thanos' eye blasts are just a typical attack for him. Darkseid's omegas represent the pinnacle of his power.



    Quote:
    Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.



    Quote:
    Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.


Well, he has but they we’re retconned away. Lost to Masterson Thor and Ka-Zar. Had those not been retconned, would Thanos really look all that superior? I’m not sure if the loss to Squirrel Girl was indisputably retconned but most ignore it because it’s too silly. And Drax did punch a hole through his chest. Was never impressed with his durability feats like withstanding a black hole because top tiers do that too. The Surfer series made it clear that he doesn’t think of Norrin as much more than a gnat. That’s impressive. But Norrin is an extreme pacifist, and by design, really shouldn’t have more powerful than the smallest fraction of Galactus’ power who views his heralds as worms in comparison and actually transformed Terrax into one to prove that. Norrin’s durability has been highly inconsistent, so when he gets smacked around, it’s not the same feel when it happens to Thor. And would a writer dare conceive of a Thor or Gladiator getting armbarred by Black Panther - doubt it, but strangely it wasn’t as obvious to writers when it came to Surfer. Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue? He he done this to Gladiator, Hyperion, Thor, Sentry, or Hulk? I see things impressive lately like pulverizing Abomination who just got through decimating an Avengers team including She-Thor, but it turned out to only be a dream reality. Can he really do that to Abomination? I don’t know... but I’ll say that it feels like a lot of his impressive feats are marked with some context not explained by fans like his fight with Tyrant, or how he defeated Maker Beyonder without informing that Maker has only a fraction of true form Beyonder power and was a mortal form willingly allowing it to suffer much more damage. Thanos does not have a counter team so eager to dispute his accomplishments and scrutinize him like super hero’s have. Yeah, he gave Odin a tough time... but so did She-Thor who pissed off Odin waaaay worse, like, I’m going to kill you bitch! Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I noticed something I never saw before, but in the DC/Marvel crossover, there's actually a small art piece showing Darkseid and Thanos matching eye beam for eye beam, neither having any advantage. Their fight is mostly off panel but throughout the series, it was unquestionably implied that their fight was more than just some brief encounter. People point out that Orion's loss to Surfer carries weight because it represents an author's (John Byrne's) interpretation of how the fight would really happen despite not being canon, yet we see here that the same logic points to Darkseid and Thanos being evenly matched.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I don't know why people point out Orion's loss to Surfer, are they willing to accept the logical consequences?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account. This is just one showing. I agree that Darkseid should be positioned as an equal to Thanos as the consummate teambuster, but until the New 52, that hasn't often been the case. Even here as you point out, we see that Thanos' eye blasts are seen as equal to Darkseid's omegas. Thanos' eye blasts are just a typical attack for him. Darkseid's omegas represent the pinnacle of his power.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.



    Quote:
    Well, he has but they we’re retconned away. Lost to Masterson Thor and Ka-Zar. Had those not been retconned, would Thanos really look all that superior? I’m not sure if the loss to Squirrel Girl was indisputably retconned but most ignore it because it’s too silly. And Drax did punch a hole through his chest. Was never impressed with his durability feats like withstanding a black hole because top tiers do that too. The Surfer series made it clear that he doesn’t think of Norrin as much more than a gnat. That’s impressive. But Norrin is an extreme pacifist, and by design, really shouldn’t have more powerful than the smallest fraction of Galactus’ power who views his heralds as worms in comparison and actually transformed Terrax into one to prove that. Norrin’s durability has been highly inconsistent, so when he gets smacked around, it’s not the same feel when it happens to Thor. And would a writer dare conceive of a Thor or Gladiator getting armbarred by Black Panther - doubt it, but strangely it wasn’t as obvious to writers when it came to Surfer. Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue? He he done this to Gladiator, Hyperion, Thor, Sentry, or Hulk? I see things impressive lately like pulverizing Abomination who just got through decimating an Avengers team including She-Thor, but it turned out to only be a dream reality. Can he really do that to Abomination? I don’t know... but I’ll say that it feels like a lot of his impressive feats are marked with some context not explained by fans like his fight with Tyrant, or how he defeated Maker Beyonder without informing that Maker has only a fraction of true form Beyonder power and was a mortal form willingly allowing it to suffer much more damage. Thanos does not have a counter team so eager to dispute his accomplishments and scrutinize him like super hero’s have. Yeah, he gave Odin a tough time... but so did She-Thor who pissed off Odin waaaay worse, like, I’m going to kill you bitch! Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?


Also, I do think Darkseid defeating Zeus counts for a lot. High Father is so powerful that he can simply stop time to defeat Superman. There is no power in Marvel that can stop time like that below a skyfather.





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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




    Quote:
    Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account.


Exactly! And this is what I do when I think on who would win. I like Darkseid a whole lot more than I do Thanos. And originally, I did say Darkseid wins this fight until someone corrected me with proof that Thanos wins. Then I did research on the two characters and compared their feats. And frankly, Thanos has more impressive feats than Darkseid does.


    Quote:
    Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.


Until the New 52, Darkseid was only marginally more powerful than Superman in turns of raw power and strength. And he was like that for decades. One of many reasons why I rate Darkseid below Thanos.


    Quote:
    Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.


Couldn't agree more. Especially your last sentence.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



    Quote:
    Well, he has but they we’re retconned away. Lost to Masterson Thor and Ka-Zar. Had those not been retconned, would Thanos really look all that superior?


Thanos has never lost to Masterson Thor. He's been injured by Masterson Thor, but that's not the same thing. And what are you saying here anyway? That retcons shouldn't count? Because that's what you're implying.


    Quote:
    I’m not sure if the loss to Squirrel Girl was indisputably retconned but most ignore it because it’s too silly.


Really? Squirrel Girl is comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously.


    Quote:
    And Drax did punch a hole through his chest.


Drax was created by a skyfather-level being, Kronos, to be Thanos' magical weakness. Drax was also attacking Thanos while Thanos was distracted, and in Thanos Annual #1, Starlin even retconned this to Thanos being in a "very weakened state." And in their history, Thanos has beaten Drax many times. Again, you need to take the full context into account.


    Quote:
    Was never impressed with his durability feats like withstanding a black hole because top tiers do that too.


Thanos took Black Bolt's scream. Black Bolt then hit Thanos with subsequent screams that were weaker that Thanos completely shrugged off. There are few durability feats better than surviving a full Black Bolt scream. Also when Thanos fought the Fallen One, Thanos ignited a gas giant planet which completely exploded around him. Thanos wasn't terribly affected but it ko'd the Fallen One.


    Quote:
    The Surfer series made it clear that he doesn’t think of Norrin as much more than a gnat. That’s impressive. But Norrin is an extreme pacifist, and by design, really shouldn’t have more powerful than the smallest fraction of Galactus’ power who views his heralds as worms in comparison and actually transformed Terrax into one to prove that. Norrin’s durability has been highly inconsistent, so when he gets smacked around, it’s not the same feel when it happens to Thor. And would a writer dare conceive of a Thor or Gladiator getting armbarred by Black Panther - doubt it, but strangely it wasn’t as obvious to writers when it came to Surfer.


You're just rambling here. Pointing to outliers in Surfer showings isn't relevant. Should we reduce the Hulk to Princess Python's snake level or Superman's durability to a gas station explosion? Characters have very low showings sometimes. It shouldn't define them and neither should their very highest showings.


    Quote:
    Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue?


In the very DC/Marvel crossover you were citing, Thanos beats Terrax easily and the observation is made that Thanos is "a hell of a lot more powerful" than Terrax. Also Thanos beat Beta Ray Bill in a fight leaving no room for doubt about his superiority. Right after that, he two-shots Ronan the Accuser.














    Quote:
    how he defeated Maker Beyonder without informing that Maker has only a fraction of true form Beyonder power and was a mortal form willingly allowing it to suffer much more damage.


The Maker had the nigh infinite power of the Beyonder, she was just in a physical form. Thanos is able to exchange several energy blasts with her before using psi to destroy her mind.


    Quote:
    Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?


Thanos and Adam Warlock beat the Annihilators (Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Ikon, Quasar, Ronan the Accuser, Silver Surfer). While Thanos was weakened by Death, he was beating the entire Imperial Guard minus Gladiator until Gladiator showed up. The narration later stated it would have been "impossible" for the Imperial Guard to have won had Thanos not been weakened. Thanos was winning against the Ultimates (Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel in Binary form, Miss America, and Spectrum) until Blue Marvel came up with a plot device machine that beat Thanos. The only time a single top tier has beaten Thanos (though it was really a Thanos clone) one on one was when Thor was powered up by enchanted armor and his belt of strength against an also powered up Thanos (clone).





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account.



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    Exactly! And this is what I do when I think on who would win. I like Darkseid a whole lot more than I do Thanos. And originally, I did say Darkseid wins this fight until someone corrected me with proof that Thanos wins. Then I did research on the two characters and compared their feats. And frankly, Thanos has more impressive feats than Darkseid does.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.



    Quote:
    Until the New 52, Darkseid was only marginally more powerful than Superman in turns of raw power and strength. And he was like that for decades. One of many reasons why I rate Darkseid below Thanos.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardiahttps://m.imgur.com/a/QDyPdns of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.



    Quote:
    Couldn't agree more. Especially your last sentence.


I don’t know, dude. What feats and victories have you been seeing? I find they’re often exaggerated, like backhanding In-Betweener and drawing blood... without informing everyone of minor details like in-betweener was literally powerless within the vicinity of the prison Thanos freed him from. “Powerful enough to draw In-betweener’s blood” I’ve seen, but why let details get in way..

His durability? is that his flesh can melt inside Ego’s stomach? Surely that can’t be hotter than the sun or earth’s core which a handful of top tiers can withstand.

https://m.imgur.com/a/QDyPd

Do you seriously see a writer ever writing Superman’s flesh as capable of burning like this?









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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Well, he has but they we’re retconned away. Lost to Masterson Thor and Ka-Zar. Had those not been retconned, would Thanos really look all that superior?





    Quote:
    Thanos has never lost to Masterson Thor. He's been injured by Masterson Thor, but that's not the same thing. And what are you saying here anyway? That retcons shouldn't count? Because that's what you're implying.


Probably me confusing this:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yh3UoMSV-sI/WNMa9t7i4HI/AAAAAAAA4eI/kUVNbeGSAnQYCP_nsrUEkoDWoRqAajB8QCLcB/s1600/ig4_28.jpg

With:

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsThanos09.jpg.html

Not saying retcons shouldn’t count, just that if you lump non-retconned Thanos events alongside Darkseid, perhaps the portrayals are more balanced. What I’m really getting at, though, is that DC could easily within one page similarly retcon Darkseid losses and attribute them to avatars like Thanos and his clones. Dc just hasn’t done this, but the fix would be simple, and suddenly, portrayals would be comparable again.


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      I’m not sure if the loss to Squirrel Girl was indisputably retconned but most ignore it because it’s too silly.



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    Really? Squirrel Girl is comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously.


Yeah, I know. But just asking, is the story canon regardless?


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      And Drax did punch a hole through his chest.



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    Drax was created by a skyfather-level being, Kronos, to be Thanos' magical weakness. Drax was also attacking Thanos while Thanos was distracted, and in Thanos Annual #1, Starlin even retconned this to Thanos being in a "very weakened state." And in their history, Thanos has beaten Drax many times. Again, you need to take the full context into account.


Well, weakened state doesn’t mean a hole punch suddenly goes through your chest, just that you’re exhausted. Yeah, I know about Kronos, but Drax and Thanos fought many times before and it never happened until it did. Maybe Thanos does have a magical weakness, strange how that never prevented him from withstanding prior Drax blows. His arms were green imbued, I’ll give that, but still... I’m certain ive seen Drax elsewhere drclare he was made to be Thanos’ destroyer and then get tatted and feathered.


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      Was never impressed with his durability feats like withstanding a black hole because top tiers do that too.



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    Thanos took Black Bolt's scream. Black Bolt then hit Thanos with subsequent screams that were weaker that Thanos completely shrugged off. There are few durability feats better than surviving a full Black Bolt scream. Also when Thanos fought the Fallen One, Thanos ignited a gas giant planet which completely exploded around him. Thanos wasn't terribly affected but it ko'd the Fallen One.


Yeah, and to be honest, I lost all respect for Blackbolt’s scream, that’s the trade off. It was a total job or a new lowered standard. In fact, if Thor were to now withstand I’d be like yawn. It just doesn’t hold that same regard anymore than when Sentry said a battle between them would end everything. Obviously, everything as we know it didn’t end when he ejected on Thanos, what happened?

Do you think it’s outside some expectation to read that random top tier hero survives an exploding sun? I’m feeling lazy now (texting on iPhone is no fun) but I guess I could google for examples when I feel more up to it.


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      The Surfer series made it clear that he doesn’t think of Norrin as much more than a gnat. That’s impressive. But Norrin is an extreme pacifist, and by design, really shouldn’t have more powerful than the smallest fraction of Galactus’ power who views his heralds as worms in comparison and actually transformed Terrax into one to prove that. Norrin’s durability has been highly inconsistent, so when he gets smacked around, it’s not the same feel when it happens to Thor. And would a writer dare conceive of a Thor or Gladiator getting armbarred by Black Panther - doubt it, but strangely it wasn’t as obvious to writers when it came to Surfer.



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    You're just rambling here. Pointing to outliers in Surfer showings isn't relevant. Should we reduce the Hulk to Princess Python's snake level or Superman's durability to a gas station explosion? Characters have very low showings sometimes. It shouldn't define them and neither should their very highest showings.


It’s not rambling, it’s demonstrating that we don’t perceive Surfer in the same regard which is why Surfer seems to have more outliers. Surfer is the main top tier people point to when differentiating Thanos vs top tier level. When he first met Loki, Loki was blasting and harassing him, and instead of fighting back, Surfer literally sulked on his board, flew away, and Loki had to chase him to continue a provocation. He’s a pacifist, not a warrior. And so when he jumps into Thanos’ face, I’m immediately thinking he’s only half hearted, not really channeling what he can truly do.

Hulk and snake, shoes and fas station, come on, not comparable. Especially dupes, he’s battling doomsday and boom! Gas station explosion. I didn’t even notice the significance until people made a big deal. But what if black panther sneaked behind dupes and arm barred him? I would have noticed, and I just can’t see an author writing the absurdity.



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      Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue?



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    In the very DC/Marvel crossover you were citing, Thanos beats Terrax easily and the observation is made that Thanos is "a hell of a lot more powerful" than Terrax. Also Thanos beat Beta Ray Bill in a fight leaving no room for doubt about his superiority. Right after that, he two-shots Ronan the Accuser.


I don’t consider Terrax a top tier.... maybe others do because yes he’s a herald, but still. Surfer is the most powerful herald, Terrax a notch below. And do you remember who Kyle called upon to save him from Terrax? Superman, but Thanos showed up instead.

And Beta Ray Bill? Come on! I’m asking for a non-expendable top tier character, not somebody with a jobber ready contract in place. Otherwise Superman goes toe to toe wiling Skyfather level beings like cythonna who could fight sun god rap on fairly equal terms.


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      how he defeated Maker Beyonder without informing that Maker has only a fraction of true form Beyonder power and was a mortal form willingly allowing it to suffer much more damage.



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    The Maker had the nigh infinite power of the Beyonder, she was just in a physical form. Thanos is able to exchange several energy blasts with her before using psi to destroy her mind.


A fraction is my claim, not nigh omnipotent. I could look into that though, but that’s what I’m gathering - that the power level was substantially less.


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      Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?



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    Thanos and Adam Warlock beat the Annihilators (Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Ikon, Quasar, Ronan the Accuser, Silver Surfer). While Thanos was weakened by Death, he was beating the entire Imperial Guard minus Gladiator until Gladiator showed up. The narration later stated it would have been "impossible" for the Imperial Guard to have won had Thanos not been weakened. Thanos was winning against the Ultimates (Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel in Binary form, Miss America, and Spectrum) until Blue Marvel came up with a plot device machine that beat Thanos. The only time a single top tier has beaten Thanos (though it was really a Thanos clone) one on one was when Thor was powered up by enchanted armor and his belt of strength against an also powered up Thanos (clone).


Did Thanos actually choose to fight Gladiator or teleport him 200 miles away? I guess some believe BFR counts as a win but I’m not sure I do.





Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517



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    Uh-huh.



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    That's not what happened in DC Vs. Marvel. They fought to a stalemate and had to be prevented from finishing their fight because it lasted so long. ;\)


And he was going to win against Thanos according to Peter David who wrote the scene.


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    We didn’t do Thanos vs. Darkseid the way I wanted. My notion was to have Thanos and Darkseid confront each other, simply say, “So,” to each other, and stand there, staring. This would start toward the beginning of issue #1. Every so often we’d cut back to them, still standing, still staring. And toward the end of issue #4, without a word, Thanos would fall over. End of battle. My notion was that they were battling on a plane of reality/existence that we couldn’t even begin to conceive.


http://www.peterdavid.net/2014/09/05/on-writing-dc-vs-marvel/

Doesn't lends credence to what you are saying.


Posted with Opera 9.80
motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517



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      I noticed something I never saw before, but in the DC/Marvel crossover, there's actually a small art piece showing Darkseid and Thanos matching eye beam for eye beam, neither having any advantage. Their fight is mostly off panel but throughout the series, it was unquestionably implied that their fight was more than just some brief encounter. People point out that Orion's loss to Surfer carries weight because it represents an author's (John Byrne's) interpretation of how the fight would really happen despite not being canon, yet we see here that the same logic points to Darkseid and Thanos being evenly matched.

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        I don't know why people point out Orion's loss to Surfer, are they willing to accept the logical consequences?



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    Sure. The thing is that when you're trying to measure Darkseid vs. Thanos, you have to take everything into account. This is just one showing. I agree that Darkseid should be positioned as an equal to Thanos as the consummate teambuster, but until the New 52, that hasn't often been the case. Even here as you point out, we see that Thanos' eye blasts are seen as equal to Darkseid's omegas. Thanos' eye blasts are just a typical attack for him. Darkseid's omegas represent the pinnacle of his power.



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    Both characters have had showings all over the place, but certainly some showings are more memorable and prominent than others. Darkseid has both beaten and lost to Superman, DC's most prominent or second most prominent character. In two cases, Superman flat out beat Darkseid cleanly with Darkseid admitting he lost. Another time, Superman got a save from Wonder Woman's vambraces against Darkseid's omegas, but after that, Superman went on to beat Darkseid convincingly. Given all of these instances and that Doomsday also humiliated Darkseid, it's hard to see Darkseid as significantly more powerful than Superman.



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    Thanos has also had good and bad showings. He's shown he can beat Adam Warlock easily, that he could probably take down Thor and Thing simultaneously (and this was before he got a notable power up upon his resurrection), that he could keep up with Odin for a time, and he's beaten the Annihilators. On the lower end, he struggled against Drax, Nova, and Peter Quill in the Cancerverse, he's lost to the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy combined, and while in a weakened state, Thanos lost to the Shi'ar Imperial Guard. Thanos has never lost to a Superman-level foe in a straight fight though and that should count for something.


Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.

Darkseid was injured by his own omega energies when he lost to Superman. Incidentally Thanos actually died when he blasted his head with his own blasts.


Posted with Opera 9.80
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



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    Not saying retcons shouldn’t count, just that if you lump non-retconned Thanos events alongside Darkseid, perhaps the portrayals are more balanced. What I’m really getting at, though, is that DC could easily within one page similarly retcon Darkseid losses and attribute them to avatars like Thanos and his clones. Dc just hasn’t done this, but the fix would be simple, and suddenly, portrayals would be comparable again.


That's just a really weird way of making a point that's not making a point at all. You're saying that if the comics were written differently, we would have a different interpretation of events. Well, of course, except they weren't written differently, so you have to take them as they are, not what you clearly want them to be.


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      Really? Squirrel Girl is comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously.
    Yeah, I know. But just asking, is the story canon regardless?


I think Marvel is leaving that up to the reader.


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        And Drax did punch a hole through his chest.
      Drax was created by a skyfather-level being, Kronos, to be Thanos' magical weakness. Drax was also attacking Thanos while Thanos was distracted, and in Thanos Annual #1, Starlin even retconned this to Thanos being in a "very weakened state." And in their history, Thanos has beaten Drax many times. Again, you need to take the full context into account.
    Well, weakened state doesn’t mean a hole punch suddenly goes through your chest, just that you’re exhausted.


That's not necessarily the interpretation to take in comics. In a world of super powers, not having your usual powers, in this case Thanos' full durability, is a weakened state. Starlin doesn't clarify on the specifics here, but his clear intent is to say that this wouldn't have happened to a normal Thanos.


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    Yeah, I know about Kronos, but Drax and Thanos fought many times before and it never happened until it did. Maybe Thanos does have a magical weakness, strange how that never prevented him from withstanding prior Drax blows. His arms were green imbued, I’ll give that, but still... I’m certain ive seen Drax elsewhere drclare he was made to be Thanos’ destroyer and then get tatted and feathered.


So what's your point? Drax attacks a Thanos who is both in a "very weakened state" and distracted, and you want this to indicate that Thanos is not very powerful?


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      Thanos took Black Bolt's scream. Black Bolt then hit Thanos with subsequent screams that were weaker that Thanos completely shrugged off. There are few durability feats better than surviving a full Black Bolt scream. Also when Thanos fought the Fallen One, Thanos ignited a gas giant planet which completely exploded around him. Thanos wasn't terribly affected but it ko'd the Fallen One.
    Yeah, and to be honest, I lost all respect for Blackbolt’s scream, that’s the trade off. It was a total job or a new lowered standard. In fact, if Thor were to now withstand I’d be like yawn. It just doesn’t hold that same regard anymore than when Sentry said a battle between them would end everything. Obviously, everything as we know it didn’t end when he ejected on Thanos, what happened?


I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing. Got it.


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      You're just rambling here. Pointing to outliers in Surfer showings isn't relevant. Should we reduce the Hulk to Princess Python's snake level or Superman's durability to a gas station explosion? Characters have very low showings sometimes. It shouldn't define them and neither should their very highest showings.
    It’s not rambling, it’s demonstrating that we don’t perceive Surfer in the same regard which is why Surfer seems to have more outliers. Surfer is the main top tier people point to when differentiating Thanos vs top tier level. When he first met Loki, Loki was blasting and harassing him, and instead of fighting back, Surfer literally sulked on his board, flew away, and Loki had to chase him to continue a provocation. He’s a pacifist, not a warrior. And so when he jumps into Thanos’ face, I’m immediately thinking he’s only half hearted, not really channeling what he can truly do.


Wow, way to distort the context. When Surfer first met Loki, Surfer didn't know who he was. Surfer was in a hopeless and anguished state being trapped on Earth and didn't care about living in that moment. That is totally not what Surfer is normally like for the vast majority of his existence. There have been many instances in which Surfer goes into battle fervently. His battle with and loss to Thanos is one of those instances. But I see. For you anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing or not putting his full effort into it. Got it.


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        Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue?
      In the very DC/Marvel crossover you were citing, Thanos beats Terrax easily and the observation is made that Thanos is "a hell of a lot more powerful" than Terrax. Also Thanos beat Beta Ray Bill in a fight leaving no room for doubt about his superiority. Right after that, he two-shots Ronan the Accuser.
    I don’t consider Terrax a top tier.... maybe others do because yes he’s a herald, but still. Surfer is the most powerful herald, Terrax a notch below.


I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. Terrax has beaten virtually all the other heralds outside of Morg and Surfer. Terrax has destroyed a whole planet with one swing of his axe. Terrax is no weakling.


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    And Beta Ray Bill? Come on! I’m asking for a non-expendable top tier character, not somebody with a jobber ready contract in place. Otherwise Superman goes toe to toe wiling Skyfather level beings like cythonna who could fight sun god rap on fairly equal terms.


I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. See, anyone could argue like you, i.e., completely rationalize and then dismiss every example brought up, but what you're doing is no longer using reason to choose, you're just choosing your reasons.


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      The Maker had the nigh infinite power of the Beyonder, she was just in a physical form. Thanos is able to exchange several energy blasts with her before using psi to destroy her mind.
    A fraction is my claim, not nigh omnipotent. I could look into that though, but that’s what I’m gathering - that the power level was substantially less.


I was being generous. But I'll save you from looking into it and show you exactly what the comic says: "His inquiries have led him to one being of infinite power. They call her the Maker - but once she was known as the Beyonder." But I know, I know, it doesn't count because the Maker was jobbing.








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        Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?
      Thanos and Adam Warlock beat the Annihilators (Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Ikon, Quasar, Ronan the Accuser, Silver Surfer). While Thanos was weakened by Death, he was beating the entire Imperial Guard minus Gladiator until Gladiator showed up. The narration later stated it would have been "impossible" for the Imperial Guard to have won had Thanos not been weakened. Thanos was winning against the Ultimates (Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel in Binary form, Miss America, and Spectrum) until Blue Marvel came up with a plot device machine that beat Thanos. The only time a single top tier has beaten Thanos (though it was really a Thanos clone) one on one was when Thor was powered up by enchanted armor and his belt of strength against an also powered up Thanos (clone).
    Did Thanos actually choose to fight Gladiator or teleport him 200 miles away? I guess some believe BFR counts as a win but I’m not sure I do.

So are you going to concede that Thanos has team busted some powerful teams or are they all jobbers to you (again)?





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



    Quote:

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      Not saying retcons shouldn’t count, just that if you lump non-retconned Thanos events alongside Darkseid, perhaps the portrayals are more balanced. What I’m really getting at, though, is that DC could easily within one page similarly retcon Darkseid losses and attribute them to avatars like Thanos and his clones. Dc just hasn’t done this, but the fix would be simple, and suddenly, portrayals would be comparable again.



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    That's just a really weird way of making a point that's not making a point at all. You're saying that if the comics were written differently, we would have a different interpretation of events. Well, of course, except they weren't written differently, so you have to take them as they are, not what you clearly want them to be.


Well, the point I made is that Thanos simply has authors, namely Starlin, dead set on retconning any bad showings where Darkseid has no such advantage. Minus the retcons, they’re similar IMO. It’s not that they were written differently, it’s that one character has a routine fix-up todesperately erase another author’s true intention of Thanos losing cleanly. I’m pretty sure they stole the Darkseid avatar concept, just like they stole the IG glove from Darkseid’s killing glove,. It’s why some consider a Thanos a cheap imitation, apparentlyBusiek did and even Darkseid himself somehow knew.


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        Really? Squirrel Girl is comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously.
      Yeah, I know. But just asking, is the story canon regardless?



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    I think Marvel is leaving that up to the reader.


In that case, by your own words, it’s okay for me to accept it as canon. I don’t even think squirrel girl is top tier, is she? What are her feats, and in your opinion, has Darkeid ever been KO’d by someone so lowly? Surely it can’t be near as bad as losing to dc icon Superman, right? Has darkseid ever lost to someone sub-Superman level?


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          And Drax did punch a hole through his chest.
        Drax was created by a skyfather-level being, Kronos, to be Thanos' magical weakness. Drax was also attacking Thanos while Thanos was distracted, and in Thanos Annual #1, Starlin even retconned this to Thanos being in a "very weakened state." And in their history, Thanos has beaten Drax many times. Again, you need to take the full context into account.
      Well, weakened state doesn’t mean a hole punch suddenly goes through your chest, just that you’re exhausted.



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    That's not necessarily the interpretation to take in comics. In a world of super powers, not having your usual powers, in this case Thanos' full durability, is a weakened state. Starlin doesn't clarify on the specifics here, but his clear intent is to say that this wouldn't have happened to a normal Thanos.


But I thought it was Drax’s skyfather punch, not Thanos weakened state, that caused the chest hole punch. The only reason for a retcon would be an admission that there was nothing special about Drax’s punch, that Thanos was indeed weakened. So when weakened, his molecular structure loses density and is susceptible to body hole punches. Interesting...



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      Yeah, I know about Kronos, but Drax and Thanos fought many times before and it never happened until it did. Maybe Thanos does have a magical weakness, strange how that never prevented him from withstanding prior Drax blows. His arms were green imbued, I’ll give that, but still... I’m certain ive seen Drax elsewhere drclare he was made to be Thanos’ destroyer and then get tatted and feathered.



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    So what's your point? Drax attacks a Thanos who is both in a "very weakened state" and distracted, and you want this to indicate that Thanos is not very powerful?


Sorta, or at least not as powerful as commonly esteemed.

And whether he was distracted or not now has an impact on his durability against body hole punches?


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        Thanos took Black Bolt's scream. Black Bolt then hit Thanos with subsequent screams that were weaker that Thanos completely shrugged off. There are few durability feats better than surviving a full Black Bolt scream. Also when Thanos fought the Fallen One, Thanos ignited a gas giant planet which completely exploded around him. Thanos wasn't terribly affected but it ko'd the Fallen One.
      Yeah, and to be honest, I lost all respect for Blackbolt’s scream, that’s the trade off. It was a total job or a new lowered standard. In fact, if Thor were to now withstand I’d be like yawn. It just doesn’t hold that same regard anymore than when Sentry said a battle between them would end everything. Obviously, everything as we know it didn’t end when he ejected on Thanos, what happened?



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    I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing. Got it.


No, it’s just that he waded through a Blackbolt blast that didnt destroy half the planet, end reality, nothing as intense as the magnitude readers have been led to believe BB is capable of. Very minor surrounding damage, a huge letdown. Had BB’s scream destroyed the planet in the process, okay, I’m with you. but nothing like that happened.


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        You're just rambling here. Pointing to outliers in Surfer showings isn't relevant. Should we reduce the Hulk to Princess Python's snake level or Superman's durability to a gas station explosion? Characters have very low showings sometimes. It shouldn't define them and neither should their very highest showings.
      It’s not rambling, it’s demonstrating that we don’t perceive Surfer in the same regard which is why Surfer seems to have more outliers. Surfer is the main top tier people point to when differentiating Thanos vs top tier level. When he first met Loki, Loki was blasting and harassing him, and instead of fighting back, Surfer literally sulked on his board, flew away, and Loki had to chase him to continue a provocation. He’s a pacifist, not a warrior. And so when he jumps into Thanos’ face, I’m immediately thinking he’s only half hearted, not really channeling what he can truly do.



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    Wow, way to distort the context. When Surfer first met Loki, Surfer didn't know who he was. Surfer was in a hopeless and anguished state being trapped on Earth and didn't care about living in that moment. That is totally not what Surfer is normally like for the vast majority of his existence. There have been many instances in which Surfer goes into battle fervently. His battle with and loss to Thanos is one of those instances. But I see. For you anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing or not putting his full effort into it. Got it.


Im not arguing that it doesn’t count, just that considerations have to be made. Surfer to me is like a captain Picard with fighting skills. Even if he appears fervent, it’s still captain Picard. Norrin radd by nature is a pacifist, not a warrior. I’m not convinced that he engages in battle with the same determination or intensity, which might even impact his durability.


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          Outside of the clear gap between Thanos and Surfer, when has he demolished a top tier that led no doubt? And I don’t mean one shot backhands or knocking heads together as suggestive evidence - Darkseid does that to Suuperman all the time - but a true butt kicking where the other is decimated and cant continue?
        In the very DC/Marvel crossover you were citing, Thanos beats Terrax easily and the observation is made that Thanos is "a hell of a lot more powerful" than Terrax. Also Thanos beat Beta Ray Bill in a fight leaving no room for doubt about his superiority. Right after that, he two-shots Ronan the Accuser.
      I don’t consider Terrax a top tier.... maybe others do because yes he’s a herald, but still. Surfer is the most powerful herald, Terrax a notch below.



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    I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. Terrax has beaten virtually all the other heralds outside of Morg and Surfer. Terrax has destroyed a whole planet with one swing of his axe. Terrax is no weakling.


Terrax to me is low top tier, like Steppenwolf or Wonder Woman. Strong, but no match for a real top tier. Have you seen the recent JLA movie? Steppenwolf was beating up on Wonder Woman and Aquaman but was nothing but a rag doll to Superman. Steppenwolf once drove his axe on Superman’s shoulder and Superman was completely unfazed. “Hello, invulnerable?” Is what Superman said, in fact.


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      And Beta Ray Bill? Come on! I’m asking for a non-expendable top tier character, not somebody with a jobber ready contract in place. Otherwise Superman goes toe to toe wiling Skyfather level beings like cythonna who could fight sun god rap on fairly equal terms.



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    I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. See, anyone could argue like you, i.e., completely rationalize and then dismiss every example brought up, but what you're doing is no longer using reason to choose, you're just choosing your reasons.


BRB has been beaten by Surfer just as bad. “You are no match for me” said a very mellow and pacifist Surfer trying to talk out of a fight.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/superman-vs-silversurfer-19863/


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        The Maker had the nigh infinite power of the Beyonder, she was just in a physical form. Thanos is able to exchange several energy blasts with her before using psi to destroy her mind.
      A fraction is my claim, not nigh omnipotent. I could look into that though, but that’s what I’m gathering - that the power level was substantially less.



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    I was being generous. But I'll save you from looking into it and show you exactly what the comic says: "His inquiries have led him to one being of infinite power. They call her the Maker - but once she was known as the Beyonder." But I know, I know, it doesn't count because the Maker was jobbing.


I still insist onlooking into this. I certain there is missing context.


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          Why is it so indisputable that he’s substantially more powerful than a top tier? When has he team busted a team that had more than one or two top tiers?
        Thanos and Adam Warlock beat the Annihilators (Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Ikon, Quasar, Ronan the Accuser, Silver Surfer). While Thanos was weakened by Death, he was beating the entire Imperial Guard minus Gladiator until Gladiator showed up. The narration later stated it would have been "impossible" for the Imperial Guard to have won had Thanos not been weakened. Thanos was winning against the Ultimates (Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel in Binary form, Miss America, and Spectrum) until Blue Marvel came up with a plot device machine that beat Thanos. The only time a single top tier has beaten Thanos (though it was really a Thanos clone) one on one was when Thor was powered up by enchanted armor and his belt of strength against an also powered up Thanos (clone).
      Did Thanos actually choose to fight Gladiator or teleport him 200 miles away? I guess some believe BFR counts as a win but I’m not sure I do.

    So are you going to concede that Thanos has team busted some powerful teams or are they all jobbers to you (again)?


Powerful teams, sure. But not like he teambusted anything eye opening that I couldn’t see Darkseid doing. He boom tubes Gladiator away first and then handles himself.




Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



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    Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.



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    Darkseid was injured by his own omega energies when he lost to Superman. Incidentally Thanos actually died when he blasted his head with his own blasts.


All of your examples are misleading, but then that's what you do best. As for Darkseid getting injured by his own omegas, that's due to Superman leading them back to Darkseid. That's Superman's doing and a perfectly fair and smart tactic in a fight. Besides, this has happened to Darkseid so many times that he'd see it coming by now. Anyway, by your logic, any time an opponent turns someone's own powers on them, it doesn't count. That's ridiculous.




THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



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      That's just a really weird way of making a point that's not making a point at all. You're saying that if the comics were written differently, we would have a different interpretation of events. Well, of course, except they weren't written differently, so you have to take them as they are, not what you clearly want them to be.
    Well, the point I made is that Thanos simply has authors, namely Starlin, dead set on retconning any bad showings where Darkseid has no such advantage. Minus the retcons, they’re similar IMO. It’s not that they were written differently, it’s that one character has a routine fix-up todesperately erase another author’s true intention of Thanos losing cleanly.


But again, it's totally irrelevant because that is how the comics have been written. If DC wanted to depict Darkseid as well as Thanos, they could easily make the choice to do so. Instead they've had him lose repeatedly to Superman, to Doomsday, and at least once to Orion.


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          Really? Squirrel Girl is comedy. You're not supposed to take it seriously.
        Yeah, I know. But just asking, is the story canon regardless?
      I think Marvel is leaving that up to the reader.
    In that case, by your own words, it’s okay for me to accept it as canon. I don’t even think squirrel girl is top tier, is she? What are her feats, and in your opinion, has Darkeid ever been KO’d by someone so lowly? Surely it can’t be near as bad as losing to dc icon Superman, right? Has darkseid ever lost to someone sub-Superman level?


Squirrel Girl is above top tier. She beats everyone. The title of her comic is the UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. But really, you've got to be pretty desperate to resort to a comedy showing that is intentionally not to be taken seriously.


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    But I thought it was Drax’s skyfather punch, not Thanos weakened state, that caused the chest hole punch.


They are not mutually exclusive.


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    The only reason for a retcon would be an admission that there was nothing special about Drax’s punch, that Thanos was indeed weakened. So when weakened, his molecular structure loses density and is susceptible to body hole punches. Interesting...


I think Starlin is so protective of Thanos and sees him as so far above Drax that even with Drax's special advantage against Thanos, Starlin thought that was an inappropriate depiction. But your missing the point, Starlin created an in-canon excuse that this would not have happened to a normal Thanos.


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    And whether he was distracted or not now has an impact on his durability against body hole punches?


Being distracted has an impact on his ability to play defense certainly.


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    No, it’s just that he waded through a Blackbolt blast that didnt destroy half the planet, end reality, nothing as intense as the magnitude readers have been led to believe BB is capable of. Very minor surrounding damage, a huge letdown. Had BB’s scream destroyed the planet in the process, okay, I’m with you. but nothing like that happened.


This is nitpicking in the extreme. This type of thing happens all the time in comics in which immense collateral damage would upend the plot and so is ignored, especially when cosmic being fight.


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      Wow, way to distort the context. When Surfer first met Loki, Surfer didn't know who he was. Surfer was in a hopeless and anguished state being trapped on Earth and didn't care about living in that moment. That is totally not what Surfer is normally like for the vast majority of his existence. There have been many instances in which Surfer goes into battle fervently. His battle with and loss to Thanos is one of those instances. But I see. For you anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing or not putting his full effort into it. Got it.
    Im not arguing that it doesn’t count, just that considerations have to be made. Surfer to me is like a captain Picard with fighting skills. Even if he appears fervent, it’s still captain Picard. Norrin radd by nature is a pacifist, not a warrior. I’m not convinced that he engages in battle with the same determination or intensity, which might even impact his durability.


But your reasoning is flawed. Just because Surfer sometimes holds back doesn't mean he's always holding back, and there's no indication that he was holding back against Thanos.


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      I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. Terrax has beaten virtually all the other heralds outside of Morg and Surfer. Terrax has destroyed a whole planet with one swing of his axe. Terrax is no weakling.
    Terrax to me is low top tier, like Steppenwolf or Wonder Woman. Strong, but no match for a real top tier. Have you seen the recent JLA movie? Steppenwolf was beating up on Wonder Woman and Aquaman but was nothing but a rag doll to Superman. Steppenwolf once drove his axe on Superman’s shoulder and Superman was completely unfazed. “Hello, invulnerable?” Is what Superman said, in fact.


Except I gave you reasons for considering Terrax as very powerful and you gave me none and went into a non sequitur on the Justice League movie.


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      I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. See, anyone could argue like you, i.e., completely rationalize and then dismiss every example brought up, but what you're doing is no longer using reason to choose, you're just choosing your reasons.
    BRB has been beaten by Surfer just as bad. “You are no match for me” said a very mellow and pacifist Surfer trying to talk out of a fight.


So you will only accept Thanos' prowess if he defeats a top tier, by which you mean about 5 characters but Surfer doesn't count. Gotcha.


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      I was being generous. But I'll save you from looking into it and show you exactly what the comic says: "His inquiries have led him to one being of infinite power. They call her the Maker - but once she was known as the Beyonder." But I know, I know, it doesn't count because the Maker was jobbing.
    I still insist onlooking into this. I certain there is missing context.


Well, I didn't expect you to accept it just like you didn't accept anything else despite it being right there in the comic.






THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,923


Not really disagreeing with you but that whole Annihilators thing was just bad. Poorly written in my view. Thanos should beat them one on one for sure but that whole thing was just a humiliation fest for no real reason.





Look Raist bunnies...
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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,614



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    Not really disagreeing with you but that whole Annihilators thing was just bad. Poorly written in my view. Thanos should beat them one on one for sure but that whole thing was just a humiliation fest for no real reason.







THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,861



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    Squirrel Girl is above top tier. She beats everyone. The title of her comic is the UNBEATABLE Squirrel Girl. But really, you've got to be pretty desperate to resort to a comedy showing that is intentionally not to be taken seriously.


Do you say she's above top tier in jest or were you making a serious argument? Her respect thread is here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/61ikf2/respect_the_unbeatable_squirrel_girl_marvel_616/

She's strong but far from top tier.

And I was clear with you, is the story canon (canon = reality) and you said it's up to the reader. So you can ring the bells of desperation all you want, but it won't overcome that the story has an argument for reality by your own admission.


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      But I thought it was Drax’s skyfather punch, not Thanos weakened state, that caused the chest hole punch.



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    They are not mutually exclusive.



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      The only reason for a retcon would be an admission that there was nothing special about Drax’s punch, that Thanos was indeed weakened. So when weakened, his molecular structure loses density and is susceptible to body hole punches. Interesting...



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    I think Starlin is so protective of Thanos and sees him as so far above Drax that even with Drax's special advantage against Thanos, Starlin thought that was an inappropriate depiction. But your missing the point, Starlin created an in-canon excuse that this would not have happened to a normal Thanos.



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      And whether he was distracted or not now has an impact on his durability against body hole punches?



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    Being distracted has an impact on his ability to play defense certainly.


Exactly. To play defense, not to warp physiology and molecular structure from hard as steel to soft as tissue paper. We're beating a dead horse - I concede any further point as I can't be clearer on my view and we've both established our reasons for disagreeing.


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      No, it’s just that he waded through a Blackbolt blast that didnt destroy half the planet, end reality, nothing as intense as the magnitude readers have been led to believe BB is capable of. Very minor surrounding damage, a huge letdown. Had BB’s scream destroyed the planet in the process, okay, I’m with you. but nothing like that happened.



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    This is nitpicking in the extreme. This type of thing happens all the time in comics in which immense collateral damage would upend the plot and so is ignored, especially when cosmic being fight.


Fine. Play it your way. How strong then do you believe Black Bolt's yell is and how strong was it when he used it against Thanos? Please be as precise as possible.


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        Wow, way to distort the context. When Surfer first met Loki, Surfer didn't know who he was. Surfer was in a hopeless and anguished state being trapped on Earth and didn't care about living in that moment. That is totally not what Surfer is normally like for the vast majority of his existence. There have been many instances in which Surfer goes into battle fervently. His battle with and loss to Thanos is one of those instances. But I see. For you anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is jobbing or not putting his full effort into it. Got it.
      Im not arguing that it doesn’t count, just that considerations have to be made. Surfer to me is like a captain Picard with fighting skills. Even if he appears fervent, it’s still captain Picard. Norrin radd by nature is a pacifist, not a warrior. I’m not convinced that he engages in battle with the same determination or intensity, which might even impact his durability.



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    But your reasoning is flawed. Just because Surfer sometimes holds back doesn't mean he's always holding back, and there's no indication that he was holding back against Thanos.


I didn't say he's always holding back, just that it's often enough to leave a shadow of doubt I can't ignore. Whether he doesn't focus enough, isn't evil enough to do what he's capable of, I don't know. But that's my opinion.


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        I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. Terrax has beaten virtually all the other heralds outside of Morg and Surfer. Terrax has destroyed a whole planet with one swing of his axe. Terrax is no weakling.
      Terrax to me is low top tier, like Steppenwolf or Wonder Woman. Strong, but no match for a real top tier. Have you seen the recent JLA movie? Steppenwolf was beating up on Wonder Woman and Aquaman but was nothing but a rag doll to Superman. Steppenwolf once drove his axe on Superman’s shoulder and Superman was completely unfazed. “Hello, invulnerable?” Is what Superman said, in fact.


Okay, well this is why I don't consider him a true top tier. Absolute no-sell.

https://orig00.deviantart.net/fe8a/f/2011/363/8/b/sentry_vs_terrax_by_chicho234-d4kn968.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67330/1932699-sentry_terrax_2.jpg

Not to open up another debate, but Sentry and Superman, the similarities and comparability, you get where this would go if we continued and I really don't care to do that.


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    Except I gave you reasons for considering Terrax as very powerful and you gave me none and went into a non sequitur on the Justice League movie.


Fair enough. See above on why I feel as I do.


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        I see. So anytime Thanos looks good, it doesn't count because whoever he looks good against is a jobber. Got it. See, anyone could argue like you, i.e., completely rationalize and then dismiss every example brought up, but what you're doing is no longer using reason to choose, you're just choosing your reasons.
      BRB has been beaten by Surfer just as bad. “You are no match for me” said a very mellow and pacifist Surfer trying to talk out of a fight.



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    So you will only accept Thanos' prowess if he defeats a top tier, by which you mean about 5 characters but Surfer doesn't count. Gotcha.


I'm willing to revisit this - I just found his original fight with abomination and despite his pacifism he still fought hard and won.


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        I was being generous. But I'll save you from looking into it and show you exactly what the comic says: "His inquiries have led him to one being of infinite power. They call her the Maker - but once she was known as the Beyonder." But I know, I know, it doesn't count because the Maker was jobbing.
      I still insist onlooking into this. I certain there is missing context.



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    Well, I didn't expect you to accept it just like you didn't accept anything else despite it being right there in the comic.


Because I like to check for context and not blindly accept your word for it. Someone could be uber powerful and not know how to apply it. Nebula with the IG was getting REAMED at first by the cosmic beings before something clicked and she demolished them. You have to take into account experience, mental stability, and awareness of one even has those omnipotent powers. That's why you shouldn't expect me to immediately accept your arguments, you must have a high opinion of yourself.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




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    And he was going to win against Thanos according to Peter David who wrote the scene.


Originally, yes. But that's not what happened. They fought to a stalemate during the entire event.


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      We didn’t do Thanos vs. Darkseid the way I wanted. My notion was to have Thanos and Darkseid confront each other, simply say, “So,” to each other, and stand there, staring. This would start toward the beginning of issue #1. Every so often we’d cut back to them, still standing, still staring. And toward the end of issue #4, without a word, Thanos would fall over. End of battle. My notion was that they were battling on a plane of reality/existence that we couldn’t even begin to conceive.



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    http://www.peterdavid.net/2014/09/05/on-writing-dc-vs-marvel/



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    Doesn't lends credence to what you are saying.


Actually, it's the other way around. ;\) What David conceived didn't happen in the comic. What a write conceives of when the event happened differently in the comic is not evidence that supports your case. As always, your grasping at straws.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




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    Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.


Let this go, Motifian. I already proved this false with scans to back it up and I'm not the only who disagrees with you. As Zvelf pointed out, all your examples are misleading. It's either that or you trying to give a feat to a character in which they never accomplished. But that's what you do best and now I finally know why. Your from Comic Vine and they do it all the time over there.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




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    I don’t know, dude. What feats and victories have you been seeing? I find they’re often exaggerated, like backhanding In-Betweener and drawing blood... without informing everyone of minor details like in-betweener was literally powerless within the vicinity of the prison Thanos freed him from. “Powerful enough to draw In-betweener’s blood” I’ve seen, but why let details get in way..


For your comparison:

Darkseid: https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3fq2aj/respect_darkseid_preflashpoint/

Thanos: https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3mln0t/respect_thanos_the_mad_titan/

As you can plainly see, Thanos has the better feats.


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    His durability? is that his flesh can melt inside Ego’s stomach? Surely that can’t be hotter than the sun or earth’s core which a handful of top tiers can withstand.



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    https://m.imgur.com/a/QDyPd



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    Do you seriously see a writer ever writing Superman’s flesh as capable of burning like this?



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One feat isn't enough to convince me Darkseid would win against Thanos.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517



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      Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.



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    Let this go, Motifian. I already proved this false with scans to back it up and I'm not the only who disagrees with you. As Zvelf pointed out, all your examples are misleading. It's either that or you trying to give a feat to a character in which they never accomplished. But that's what you do best and now I finally know why. Your from Comic Vine and they do it all the time over there.


You proved it false? Where?

Kindly share the link which has this proof?


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motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517



    Quote:


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      Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.



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    Let this go, Motifian. I already proved this false with scans to back it up and I'm not the only who disagrees with you. As Zvelf pointed out, all your examples are misleading. It's either that or you trying to give a feat to a character in which they never accomplished. But that's what you do best and now I finally know why. Your from Comic Vine and they do it all the time over there.


You proved it false? Where?

Kindly share the link which has this proof?


Posted with Opera 9.80 on Windows 7
motifian


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,517



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Thanos has straight up lost to Kyle Rayner when Thanos was amped on Oan energies to boot.



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    Let this go, Motifian. I already proved this false with scans to back it up and I'm not the only who disagrees with you. As Zvelf pointed out, all your examples are misleading. It's either that or you trying to give a feat to a character in which they never accomplished. But that's what you do best and now I finally know why. Your from Comic Vine and they do it all the time over there.


You proved it false? Where?

Kindly share the link which has this proof?


Posted with Opera 9.80 on Windows 7
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