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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 735


Based on the comments in the battle of the week and the 'size of fight in the dog' discussion, I thought this would be an interesting topic.

In general, I think Captain Marvel (Billy) would have performed almost exactly like Superman did in the fight with Death of Superman, up to the very end, where he would have been unconscious, and Doomsday would still be alive, but in bad enough shape that almost any relatively powerful guy could finish him.

It goes to the 'size of the fight in the dog', as this was Superman's ultimate Rocky Balboa moment, and I don't think Billy has the level of mental toughness Superman does....I think he could have fought about as well, but at the end of the day, Supes willpower had DD dead and left him dying.

Oddly enough, going down easier might mean that Marvel would have survived...

Thoughts?


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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,085



Superman nearly out of gas decided to go all-out, and took DD out with him.



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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,794



Make this in Billy's home town and put his loved ones in danger (they die if he loses) and I'd say Billy would give it his all to win just as Superman did. And Billy would have died, just as Superman did. But at least Doomsday would be dead too. See, the thing about the Death of Superman was that Clark was highly motivated to win. To be fair to Billy, he'd need to be put in a situation where he'd be highly motivated to win as well.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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makkari1


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,647



    Quote:
    Based on the comments in the battle of the week and the 'size of fight in the dog' discussion, I thought this would be an interesting topic.



    Quote:
    In general, I think Captain Marvel (Billy) would have performed almost exactly like Superman did in the fight with Death of Superman, up to the very end, where he would have been unconscious, and Doomsday would still be alive, but in bad enough shape that almost any relatively powerful guy could finish him.



    Quote:
    It goes to the 'size of the fight in the dog', as this was Superman's ultimate Rocky Balboa moment, and I don't think Billy has the level of mental toughness Superman does....I think he could have fought about as well, but at the end of the day, Supes willpower had DD dead and left him dying.



    Quote:
    Oddly enough, going down easier might mean that Marvel would have survived...



    Quote:
    Thoughts?


If this were a Captain Marvel centered book  then CM would win. I not sure if he would die because the Wizard could mostly bring him back.





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timgagnonorg@gmail.com


Member Since: Fri Jun 24, 2016
Posts: 82


In the story, Superman wasn't "out for the kill" until he realized it was truly, "kill or kill be killed". By the time he realized the threat Doomsday represented Superman was already severely damaged himself. Had he gone for blood from the start like a Black Adam character would have, he would have IMO, finished Doomsday faster and survived the battle.

But the story was "The Death of Superman" and it would have also been extremely out of character for Superman to go for the kill right away.


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Bk Ray

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,552



but with the combined power of Guy Gardner, Maxima and Bloodwynd they could get majority wins.





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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659



    Quote:
    Based on the comments in the battle of the week and the 'size of fight in the dog' discussion, I thought this would be an interesting topic.

    In general, I think Captain Marvel (Billy) would have performed almost exactly like Superman did in the fight with Death of Superman, up to the very end, where he would have been unconscious, and Doomsday would still be alive, but in bad enough shape that almost any relatively powerful guy could finish him.

    It goes to the 'size of the fight in the dog', as this was Superman's ultimate Rocky Balboa moment, and I don't think Billy has the level of mental toughness Superman does....I think he could have fought about as well, but at the end of the day, Supes willpower had DD dead and left him dying.

    Oddly enough, going down easier might mean that Marvel would have survived...

    Thoughts?


I more or less agree. I doubt Billy would have lasted as long against Doomsday as Superman did, or put him down in the end, since he's no more inclined to kill than Clark is. And that was Superman's moment to shine, arguably the point at which the post-Crisis Superman first began to nudge out ahead of the other DC top-tiers in a high profile way. I'm doubtful that Dan Jurgens in particular would've given Billy equal credit (it's possible Jerry Ordway would have if it were solely his decision, but there's no way to be sure).

It's also worth noting that according to the novelisation of DOS, Superman's power level actually rose in the final moments of the battle. The narration indicates that he basically did what Iron Man has done on occasion, and channeled more of his power reserves to his strength and EP output than he would normally. That'd help explain why Superman's attacks were suddenly so much more effective than they had been prior to that. I don't know whether the novelisation is official canon or not, but it makes sense, and it was written by Roger Stern, one of the four authors who co-wrote the comic version.

If we accept that that's what actually happened, then Billy probably couldn't have matched the power level Superman was operating at at the end there, especially not after such a long and wearying battle. Still, I think Billy could have fared about as well as Superman did in the early stages.




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Bk Ray

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,552



I always thought Superman and Doomsday got less powerful, due to the strain.

I remember Superman making a comment that when he came back, it was as his power levels had diminished due to the fighting and beating he sustained.

In theory Billy has magical stamina, he's not dependent on solar energies.





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timgagnonorg@gmail.com


Member Since: Fri Jun 24, 2016
Posts: 82


I saw Doomsday and Superman as pretty much equals with Doomsday being slightly more durable and stronger. I believe Superman could have killed Doomsday and survived to tell the tale had he fought smarter by going for the kill right away. He took waaaaay too much damage in the initial stages because he was trying to hold onto his "no kill code". That was a huge mistake that cost him his life. Had he been out for the kill right away, he most likely would have survived.


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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


Cap's wisdom would've probably made him handle the early stages of the fight differently, which I think makes a difference. Superman didn't go for the kill quick enough.


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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,191


Doomsday was getting stronger throughout the fight. Towards the end, Superman had to dig into his energy reserves in ways he had never done before, which allowed him to put Doomsday down, but also drained himself to the point of death in the process.


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659



    Quote:
    I always thought Superman and Doomsday got less powerful, due to the strain.


Superman was clearly faltering due to his injuries, and the narration suggested Doomsday was tiring as well. But if you accept the notion that Superman could crank up the rate at which he accessed his remaining power reserves, then it follows that he could've had a burst of increased strength at the end, despite his otherwise weakened condition. I've posted scans from the DOS novelisation so you can read them for yourself.
https://imgur.com/a/WF0EH


    Quote:
    I remember Superman making a comment that when he came back, it was as his power levels had diminished due to the fighting and beating he sustained.


There's also the fact that the Eradicator had been leeching solar energy from his body while he was healing in the Fortress. The Eradicator couldn't absorb ambient solar rays directly, so he needed Superman's body as a conduit. And since he was getting all his juice from Superman, that means he probably took quite alot.
https://imgur.com/a/W1R3x

I think Superman was actually less powerful when he initially returned in the black costume (he said he had about a tenth of his normal power level at that point) than he was immediately after his death. When Project Cadmus had his corpse (before the Eradicator got hold of it), Director Westfield said they couldn't "scrape a cell sample off that indestructible stiff".
https://imgur.com/a/tH8QK

That's why they couldn't clone Superman directly like they wanted, and were forced to genetically engineer a clone of Westfield instead to make it as Kryptonian-like as they could (resulting in Superboy and his tactile-telekinesis). This was retconned years later by Geoff Johns, who established that Kon-El was 50% cloned from Superman and 50% cloned from Luthor. But the original idea was that Superboy was totally human in terms of his base DNA, and just genetically engineered to resemble Superman.


    Quote:
    In theory Billy has magical stamina, he's not dependent on solar energies.


But he can be weakened by cumulative injuries. The punishment he took during his first fight with an Eclipso-possessed Superman (during the Eclipso: The Darkness Within storyline) was enough to keep him out of action for the rest of the arc.




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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 384




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,722


Probably similarly. He adds some ep and generally the same sort of power level. I could see arguments that he would not stop DD, but I think it probably would be similar in the end.




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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,552



I seem to recall something similar.

Funnily enough, I thought the Eradicator had just cloned the body, but it would make sense if Steel could hurt him with a simple grip and yet Cadmus couldn't get a cell sample.

Although, I thought the Eradicator's energies was the reason he was powered up again in the first place....





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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 735


but IIRC it was returning the solar energy to him that brought him to full power so he could take down Cyborg Superman


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,552



Parasite had to leech off some off his excess power. Superman had increased in size and his heat vision had to be contained.





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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 735


He exiled himself to space....it's when Massacre was introduced...


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659


In the final chapter of the Reign of the Supermen arc, the weakened, black costumed Superman confronted the Cyborg Superman, Hank Henshaw, who attempted to kill him with a huge blast of Kryptonite radiation.
https://imgur.com/a/irRmR

The Eradicator leaped in-between them and used his body to convert those Kryptonite rays into something Professor Hamilton later dubbed "Kryptonite X".
https://imgur.com/a/8QeKm

Superman was bathed in this radiation, which had the effect of restoring his lost power, and permanently increasing the rate at which his body absorbed solar radiation, allowing his body to metabolise other forms of energy as well. So not only was Superman back to full power in an instant, but his power continued to slowly increase during the weeks and months that followed.

Initially, this was a good thing; it allowed him to do things he wasn't capable of before, like throw a space vessel the size of a small moon, and comfortably remain in space for days with no air in his lungs.
https://imgur.com/a/NczR5

But eventually, his powers grew to the point where he started to lose control of them, and his body began to Hulk up in size as well.
https://imgur.com/xlQYv7e.jpg

He ultimately solved this problem by allowing the excess power to be leeched off during a fight with Parasite.
https://imgur.com/a/qYYy1

According to Hamilton, all traces of Kryptonite X were removed from his system in the process, meaning he was finally back to normal for the first time since his death.
https://imgur.com/jakRQEH.jpg




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Zeeder


Member Since: Wed Dec 13, 2017
Posts: 408


So I agree with Rodimus Prime on that.

Billy might have realized sooner than superman what really had to be done.

Other than that about the same, except Billy might have lived due to the whole magic body thing.




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,686



    Quote:
    Based on the comments in the battle of the week and the 'size of fight in the dog' discussion, I thought this would be an interesting topic.



    Quote:
    In general, I think Captain Marvel (Billy) would have performed almost exactly like Superman did in the fight with Death of Superman, up to the very end, where he would have been unconscious, and Doomsday would still be alive, but in bad enough shape that almost any relatively powerful guy could finish him.



    Quote:
    It goes to the 'size of the fight in the dog', as this was Superman's ultimate Rocky Balboa moment, and I don't think Billy has the level of mental toughness Superman does....I think he could have fought about as well, but at the end of the day, Supes willpower had DD dead and left him dying.



    Quote:
    Oddly enough, going down easier might mean that Marvel would have survived...



    Quote:
    Thoughts?


I don’t get that same sense, I feel that Doomsday would have killed him and then continued his rampage with some but not extensive damage. Superman has always been a special character that can seemingly lay harness more power if the situation is dire enough, like leveling up to This is a job for Superman is a power of its own. Like when he fought pre-crisis Mongolia, he always got outclassed and smacked until the situation was so dire that had he not lost his focus he would have defeated Mongol. Has Billy ever demonstrated this capacity? Theresa sense that there’s more to this than size of fight in the dog, like Superman has an uncommonly tapped reserve that can be harnessed in the utmost emergencies. Problem is, I think that got abused for non dire situations like lifting weight of plant for 5 days that it muddies up everything. Bottom line, billy dies.




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Thurisaz


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,128


If DOS Doomsday had encountered magic by that time? If not, he should be very vulnerable to the lightning and it would make for a much, much easier fight for Billy.


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659



    Quote:
    If DOS Doomsday had encountered magic by that time?


I don't think he had. He'd fought and killed a New God, but hadn't been struck by magical energy so far as we know.


    Quote:
    If not, he should be very vulnerable to the lightning and it would make for a much, much easier fight for Billy.


I don't see any reason to think he'd be very vulnerable to Billy's lightning. He may not have encountered magic, but he had no established weakness to it, and seemed more durable overall than Superman. It;s hard to picture a being that could stand up to combined energy blasts from Superman, Bloodwynd, Guy Gardner, Fire and Booster Gold reeling in pain from Billy's Shazam bolts.

Not to mention that Billy wasn't in the habit of using his lightning as an offensive weapon at the time. That didn't become a thing until years later, post-KINGDOM COME. And even then, it was mostly used against Superman due to his specific weakness to magic. Superboy Prime, who had no such weakness, laughed off Black Adam's lightning-charged punches.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,036


>


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 2,251


Cap will die. Jurgens always had a motivated Superman above Cap. Recently shown in convergence where Superman thrashed Captain Thunder, Flashpoint version of Captain Marvel who he specifically states as reminds him of captain marvel.

https://imgur.com/gallery/jstmT


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 19,867


How would Cap Magical lihnting do on DD, and think that in the end, Cap's restrainst and lack of killing mode has him beaten down and killed off...

NOW how would BA, someone a spowerful as Supes/Cap, but much more ruthless, had fared?


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