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Bk Ray

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I think it is clear that Thor is slightly stronger, this was mentioned in the Korvac saga, where he couldn't quite lift Thor's deadlift.

However in the same arc, he mentioned he was tougher than Thor and his speed and strength combo made Ultron fear he was had the best solo chance against him (bearing in mind Thor actually finished the job).





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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659



    Quote:
    I think it is clear that Thor is slightly stronger, this was mentioned in the Korvac saga, where he couldn't quite lift Thor's deadlift.

    However in the same arc, he mentioned he was tougher than Thor and his speed and strength combo made Ultron fear he was had the best solo chance against him (bearing in mind Thor actually finished the job).


I'd say Wonder Man is faster on average (although neither character's speed is showcased very often), and more invulnerable in the sense that he's harder to cut (and I mean his simulated flesh form, not his pure ionic form). Thor can arguably take more of a beating though.




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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,457


Better hard durability: Wonder Man
Better damage soak: Thor


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 734


and its highlighted about as often as Thor gets a speed showing...so I'm not sure of any advantage either way.

As to durability, Thor is overall substantially more durable IMO. That said, Wondy has pretty substantially higher 'hard' durability. As I've described before, its a lot like materials hardness vs. strength. Exceed Wonder Man's hard durability, and he goes down a lot more easily than Thor...in other words, something hard and relatively brittle. Hit Thor at a lower level and he 'dents' or 'deforms' showing damage, but overall can take a lot of damage before reaching breakage.

The old RPG Mutants and Masterminds modeled this with different powers...Invulnerability vs. Toughness. Toughness gave you a bonus to save vs. damage, while invulnerability ignored damage lower than its level, and gave a bonus to save for damage above. In those terms, I'd give Wonder Man something like Invulnerability +10 and Thor Toughness +15


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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
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Bk Ray

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,547



Wonder Man had a body armour of Amazing (50) which absorbed that amount of damage. He had Monstrous (75) Endurance which is his ability to handle attacks which hurt him and he now has a Health of 225, which when reduced to 0, calls on his Endurance to prevent from dying.

Thor, on the other hand has natural body armour of Excellent (20). His Endurance is Unearthly (100) and he now has health of 340.

So going by these statistics, Wonder Man could safely ignore punches from Luke Cage, Loki and classic Rogue with no ill effect, whilst Thor could completely ignore punches from Captain America and the Kingpin. In theory, Kraven, Tigra or The Beast could beat Thor to death if they hand long enough and Thor didn't defend himself.

Thing with his Monstrous (75) damage would hurt Thor more - hitting each time for 55 points of damage, but doing 25 points of damage to Wonder Man, so Thor's greater health would diminish more quickly. Although his Endurance would allow him better success against getting ko'd or dying (but he would be doing more rolls than Wonder Man).

An enraged Hulk on the other hand, with say Shift X damage (150), would badly hurt either Wonder Man (100 points of his 225 pool) or 130 points to Thor's 340 pool. Whilst both would be overwhealmed by 3 punches (based on game mechanics and ignoring evading (which Thor would be better at or Karma -which Thor has more of). Thor's Endurance would allow to stay on his feet longer. It should also be noted that Thor's armour provides Incredible (40) armour, making the advantage Simon has more negligible).





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Sir PoetTree


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,802



At least, Simon's skin is tougher than Thor's. But that's about it. Thor is overall more durable, harder to put down, and has a greater ability to damage-soak. But Wonder Man's skin is nigh-invulnerable. Thor's "flesh" isn't notably dense by superhuman standards & he often repels attacks that might otherwise rend his skin by deflecting them with his ostensibly indestructible hammer.

Thor is also capable of "moving like the lightning he casts" when he really needs to.


Other than skin density, Simon is surpassed in every way...

\(rasta\)












Sir PoetTree ~
First Knight, Church of Hulk




"And when his anger is incalculable, the Hulk is simply the strongest one there is." --Greg Pak
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Marvelfan


Member Since: Tue Aug 15, 2017
Posts: 598


that there are several portrayals where he severely struggles against quick/agile opponents. e.g. Captain America, Cobra, Mongoose, Spiderman (although this was Masterson Thor), Gladiator (also Masterson).

So, it is unclear which portrayals are the 'correct' ones.




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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,186


Yeah, Simon has better "hard" durability... but in the long game, I don't see him being able to handle anywhere near the amount of punishment that Thor can and still continue to fight.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,686


While fun, some of these do not seem to reflect the comics too much. Thor has taken some beatings from Hulk and still gotten up, although looking dinged up.

That said, it is a fun enough game for what it is trying to do. And one of the most complete in terms of scope.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,686


Thor is faster in terms of flight speed. In terms of combat reflexes I may edge him too, just because I do not recall many speed feats for Simon.

Given his ionic energy form, I would give WM the invulnerability edge. Although I would say the durability overall would be pretty close and edge Thor if we include his ability to block with Mjolnir (classically anyway).

Thor also has the edge in basically every other category you want to look into though.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
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    Quote:
    that there are several portrayals where he severely struggles against quick/agile opponents. e.g. Captain America, Cobra, Mongoose, Spiderman (although this was Masterson Thor), Gladiator (also Masterson).



    Quote:
    So, it is unclear which portrayals are the 'correct' ones.


Well remember he generally holds back against mortal foes too.




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Vidar


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,518


Thor moved to hyper speed, like an entire shift to match Gladiator in that old FF run featuring the dreaming Celestial. There's no way Wondy could do that. But he has shown almost instantaneous reflexes. I'd say Wondy can access his speed quicker than Thor, but Thor can tap into greater speed. For me, Thor has several levels above Wondy that he can access. Classic Wonderman was merely a brick. Thor can fly through space. The demands of that pretty much inform everything else. Remember when he was 'cracked' by Hulk in that alternate timeline story by Peter David.
Vidar


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makkari1


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,645



    Quote:
    Thor moved to hyper speed, like an entire shift to match Gladiator in that old FF run featuring the dreaming Celestial. There's no way Wondy could do that. But he has shown almost instantaneous reflexes. I'd say Wondy can access his speed quicker than Thor, but Thor can tap into greater speed. For me, Thor has several levels above Wondy that he can access. Classic Wonderman was merely a brick. Thor can fly through space. The demands of that pretty much inform everything else. Remember when he was 'cracked' by Hulk in that alternate timeline story by Peter David.
    Vidar


You have the FF/Thor/Gladiator story backwards. The Dreaming Celestial put the entire future era that they traveled to in a dilated time bubble which stretched out time and caused people to move at a very slow rate almost as if they were stuck in amber. Reed Richards created portable vest that countered this effect thus Thor was wearing one of these vest. These vest allowed the team to move at their normal speed relative to the slow speed the the rest of the universe was in. To the naked eye they moved so fast that they were invisible. Future Gladiator who was coming back from a mission was able to see the FF/Thor team moving at the incredible speed they were at. Gladiator was able to accelerate his speed to match theirs so he could interact with them. If anything this shows that Gladiator has some crazy speed feats. I miss Walt Simonson's writing because this was a great series.




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Vidar


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,518



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Thor moved to hyper speed, like an entire shift to match Gladiator in that old FF run featuring the dreaming Celestial. There's no way Wondy could do that. But he has shown almost instantaneous reflexes. I'd say Wondy can access his speed quicker than Thor, but Thor can tap into greater speed. For me, Thor has several levels above Wondy that he can access. Classic Wonderman was merely a brick. Thor can fly through space. The demands of that pretty much inform everything else. Remember when he was 'cracked' by Hulk in that alternate timeline story by Peter David.
      Vidar



    Quote:
    You have the FF/Thor/Gladiator story backwards. The Dreaming Celestial put the entire future era that they traveled to in a dilated time bubble which stretched out time and caused people to move at a very slow rate almost as if they were stuck in amber. Reed Richards created portable vest that countered this effect thus Thor was wearing one of these vest. These vest allowed the team to move at their normal speed relative to the slow speed the the rest of the universe was in. To the naked eye they moved so fast that they were invisible. Future Gladiator who was coming back from a mission was able to see the FF/Thor team moving at the incredible speed they were at. Gladiator was able to accelerate his speed to match theirs so he could interact with them. If anything this shows that Gladiator has some crazy speed feats. I miss Walt Simonson's writing because this was a great series.


Ok, lol, it was over 20 years ago and I was going from memory! I have to admit I don't remember Thor wearing a vest though. I remember they were loading a huge weapons cache. I'll have to check this out, as yes, it was a great arc.
Vidar




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Vidar


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,518



    Quote:
    Thor is faster in terms of flight speed. In terms of combat reflexes I may edge him too, just because I do not recall many speed feats for Simon.



    Quote:
    Given his ionic energy form, I would give WM the invulnerability edge. Although I would say the durability overall would be pretty close and edge Thor if we include his ability to block with Mjolnir (classically anyway).



    Quote:
    Thor also has the edge in basically every other category you want to look into though.


Agree. Hyperion smashing Simon through a planet seemed about right to me. Hyperion, Gladiator and Thor are just a level above Simon in classic form. I think once the usual 'I hit harder than Thor's hammer' had settled down his place in the hierarchy was pretty consistent....until Busiek.
Vidar


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,659



    Quote:

      Quote:
      You have the FF/Thor/Gladiator story backwards. The Dreaming Celestial put the entire future era that they traveled to in a dilated time bubble which stretched out time and caused people to move at a very slow rate almost as if they were stuck in amber. Reed Richards created portable vest that countered this effect thus Thor was wearing one of these vest. These vest allowed the team to move at their normal speed relative to the slow speed the the rest of the universe was in. To the naked eye they moved so fast that they were invisible. Future Gladiator who was coming back from a mission was able to see the FF/Thor team moving at the incredible speed they were at. Gladiator was able to accelerate his speed to match theirs so he could interact with them. If anything this shows that Gladiator has some crazy speed feats. I miss Walt Simonson's writing because this was a great series.

    Ok, lol, it was over 20 years ago and I was going from memory! I have to admit I don't remember Thor wearing a vest though. I remember they were loading a huge weapons cache. I'll have to check this out, as yes, it was a great arc.
    Vidar


It wasn't vests Thor, Iron Man and the FF were wearing, more like satchels. Thor's was notably visible in some panels and not in others. Some posters took this to mean that Thor's device was destroyed during his fight with Gladiator, and that he was compensating for the time dilation effect on his own from that point forward. But Walt Simonson was asked about this on the Thor board, and he said: "if Thor had a magical appearing and disappearing belt, the lousy artist probably forgot to draw the damn thing in all the panels."

https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=thor-2004041806285000




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 951



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Thor is faster in terms of flight speed. In terms of combat reflexes I may edge him too, just because I do not recall many speed feats for Simon.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Given his ionic energy form, I would give WM the invulnerability edge. Although I would say the durability overall would be pretty close and edge Thor if we include his ability to block with Mjolnir (classically anyway).

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Thor also has the edge in basically every other category you want to look into though.



    Quote:
    Agree. Hyperion smashing Simon through a planet seemed about right to me. Hyperion, Gladiator and Thor are just a level above Simon in classic form. I think once the usual 'I hit harder than Thor's hammer' had settled down his place in the hierarchy was pretty consistent....until Busiek.
    Vidar


Actually Wondy asserted his fists hit ALMOST as hard or as hard as Thor's hammer.

I always thought his statement was most unusual.

I mean if what he said was true then how hard does Thor's fists hit then?

Less than Wondys?




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makkari1


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,645



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You have the FF/Thor/Gladiator story backwards. The Dreaming Celestial put the entire future era that they traveled to in a dilated time bubble which stretched out time and caused people to move at a very slow rate almost as if they were stuck in amber. Reed Richards created portable vest that countered this effect thus Thor was wearing one of these vest. These vest allowed the team to move at their normal speed relative to the slow speed the the rest of the universe was in. To the naked eye they moved so fast that they were invisible. Future Gladiator who was coming back from a mission was able to see the FF/Thor team moving at the incredible speed they were at. Gladiator was able to accelerate his speed to match theirs so he could interact with them. If anything this shows that Gladiator has some crazy speed feats. I miss Walt Simonson's writing because this was a great series.

      Ok, lol, it was over 20 years ago and I was going from memory! I have to admit I don't remember Thor wearing a vest though. I remember they were loading a huge weapons cache. I'll have to check this out, as yes, it was a great arc.
      Vidar



    Quote:
    It wasn't vests Thor, Iron Man and the FF were wearing, more like satchels. Thor's was notably visible in some panels and not in others. Some posters took this to mean that Thor's device was destroyed during his fight with Gladiator, and that he was compensating for the time dilation effect on his own from that point forward. But Walt Simonson was asked about this on the Thor board, and he said: "if Thor had a magical appearing and disappearing belt, the lousy artist probably forgot to draw the damn thing in all the panels."



    Quote:
    https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=thor-2004041806285000
That's funny because Walt was the artist Lol.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 951



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          You have the FF/Thor/Gladiator story backwards. The Dreaming Celestial put the entire future era that they traveled to in a dilated time bubble which stretched out time and caused people to move at a very slow rate almost as if they were stuck in amber. Reed Richards created portable vest that countered this effect thus Thor was wearing one of these vest. These vest allowed the team to move at their normal speed relative to the slow speed the the rest of the universe was in. To the naked eye they moved so fast that they were invisible. Future Gladiator who was coming back from a mission was able to see the FF/Thor team moving at the incredible speed they were at. Gladiator was able to accelerate his speed to match theirs so he could interact with them. If anything this shows that Gladiator has some crazy speed feats. I miss Walt Simonson's writing because this was a great series.

        Ok, lol, it was over 20 years ago and I was going from memory! I have to admit I don't remember Thor wearing a vest though. I remember they were loading a huge weapons cache. I'll have to check this out, as yes, it was a great arc.
        Vidar

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It wasn't vests Thor, Iron Man and the FF were wearing, more like satchels. Thor's was notably visible in some panels and not in others. Some posters took this to mean that Thor's device was destroyed during his fight with Gladiator, and that he was compensating for the time dilation effect on his own from that point forward. But Walt Simonson was asked about this on the Thor board, and he said: "if Thor had a magical appearing and disappearing belt, the lousy artist probably forgot to draw the damn thing in all the panels."

        Quote:

          Quote:
          https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=thor-2004041806285000
        That's funny because Walt was the artist Lol.






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