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Author
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892


Can someone help me with the comic where a celestial once turned Thor into a frog at the snap of its fingers? Maybe it was 10 years ago or so, the celestial was in humanoid form, Thor mouthed off, and snap, he was a frog. I believe it was a celestial that did this but it was a while back and I can’t remember exactly anymore. And it definately wasn’t Loki.




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UName


Member Since: Tue Mar 10, 2015
Posts: 521


or somewhere around that anyway.

Maybe one these:

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Ashema_(Earth-616)/Appearances



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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892


Awesome, thanks! I can’t believe it was that long ago...

And to Visitor who issued this challenge, you just got served, boiiiiiiiii visitation rights are over




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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,865



Challenge? And how does Visitor issuing some kind of challenge, where you have been provided an answer means he had been owned?

Honestly curious.





Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

    Challenge? And how does Visitor issuing some kind of challenge, where you have been provided an answer means he had been owned?



    Quote:
    Honestly curious.


http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018030121011987&layout=portable

Sure, he asked if someone could help me out so I asked. His terms, not mine. And what does it matter who finds the source of my “proclamation”? Truth is truth.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:

      Quote:

      Challenge? And how does Visitor issuing some kind of challenge, where you have been provided an answer means he had been owned?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Honestly curious.



    Quote:
    http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018030121011987&layout=portable



    Quote:
    Sure, he asked if someone could help me out so I asked. His terms, not mine. And what does it matter who finds the source of my “proclamation”? Truth is truth.


I honestly wanted an answer which is why I asked if someone could help us out.

I still don't see evidence of this via the link. Please provide thanks. ;\)




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892


It’s all over for me now, you got me here. I don’t have the evidence you require. I admit I lied about the whole thing, and somebody else just happened to remember the same thing in precise detail but we’re both wrong. You win.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:
    It’s all over for me now, you got me here. I don’t have the evidence you require. I admit I lied about the whole thing, and somebody else just happened to remember the same thing in precise detail but we’re both wrong. You win.


Huh? It's not about winning or losing. It's not that I didn't believe you, I just wanted to see and read it for myself to find out the circumstances surrounding what happened was all.

It's not a competition on here my friend. I'm here to find out and learn things I don't know or didn't read for myself which was why I asked if anyone else could provide a reference.

Trust me, I've been wrong before and will inevitably be wrong again in the future.

But in the end it's all about everyone having a good rapport on here and being friends. \(wink\)


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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,994



\:\-D



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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

      Quote:
      It’s all over for me now, you got me here. I don’t have the evidence you require. I admit I lied about the whole thing, and somebody else just happened to remember the same thing in precise detail but we’re both wrong. You win.



    Quote:
    Huh? It's not about winning or losing. It's not that I didn't believe you, I just wanted to see and read it for myself to find out the circumstances surrounding what happened was all.



    Quote:
    It's not a competition on here my friend. I'm here to find out and learn things I don't know or didn't read for myself which was why I asked if anyone else could provide a reference.



    Quote:
    Trust me, I've been wrong before and will inevitably be wrong again in the future.



    Quote:
    But in the end it's all about everyone having a good rapport on here and being friends. \(wink\)


Ummmmm.... ok






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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

    \:\-D


Yesssssss, thanks!





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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:

    \:\-D



    Quote:
    Yesssssss, thanks!


Did a little research on my own. It appears the Heroes Reborn saga takes places in an alternate universe therefore isn't 616.




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892


And?




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744


And they are not considered cannon.


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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,994



...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.



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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:

    ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.


The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.

I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.




Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

      Quote:

      ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.



    Quote:
    The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.



    Quote:
    I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.


But Ashema was from the 616 universe, and I thought it was also the true Thor she turned into a frog.




Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

        ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.



    Quote:
    But Ashema was from the 616 universe, and I thought it was also the true Thor she turned into a frog.


FF and Avengers were from the 616 universe too. And she did turn Thor into a frog.....in Franklin's pocket non-cannon universe.




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

          ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        But Ashema was from the 616 universe, and I thought it was also the true Thor she turned into a frog.



    Quote:
    FF and Avengers were from the 616 universe too. And she did turn Thor into a frog.....in Franklin's pocket non-cannon universe.


So be clear then. Did a 616 celestial turn a 616 Thor into a frog or not?






Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:

            ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          But Ashema was from the 616 universe, and I thought it was also the true Thor she turned into a frog.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        FF and Avengers were from the 616 universe too. And she did turn Thor into a frog.....in Franklin's pocket non-cannon universe.



    Quote:
    So be clear then. Did a 616 celestial turn a 616 Thor into a frog or not?




At the end of Heroes Reborn saga, FF and Avengers were returned to the mainstream Marvel universe. So yes, it's a story that happened but it's not considered to be cannon.

Remember heroes origins and histories were changed in Franklin's universe. Once they returned, 616 origins were restored. So there was no truth to begin with in Franklin's universe. In fact there were "two Thors" in Franklin's universe.

Now if you want to say a celestial has the power to change someone to a frog in 616 universe, I won't refute it.





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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:

              ...this "Franklin universe" was part of 616 canon.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              The Franklin universe itself was a part of 616 canon but not the events which transpired within it. Original hero origins and histories/events were changed which never took place in 616. Upon completion of the story, the FF and Avengers were returned back to the mainstream Marvel universe.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                I now remember this event as I still have all...edit: most of the original stories.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            But Ashema was from the 616 universe, and I thought it was also the true Thor she turned into a frog.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          FF and Avengers were from the 616 universe too. And she did turn Thor into a frog.....in Franklin's pocket non-cannon universe.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        So be clear then. Did a 616 celestial turn a 616 Thor into a frog or not?



    Quote:



    Quote:
    At the end of Heroes Reborn saga, FF and Avengers were returned to the mainstream Marvel universe. So yes, it's a story that happened but it's not considered to be cannon.



    Quote:
    Remember heroes origins and histories were changed in Franklin's universe. So there was no truth to begin with.



    Quote:
    Now if you want to say a celestial has the power to change someone to a frog in 616 universe, I won't refute it.



    Quote:



So...

From Ashema’s perspective and the celestial’s, nothing ever happened then? She went into a non-canon pocket universe, conducted an experiment, and reported the results to the other celestials. But the part where she turned the 616 Thor into a frog got erased from her report because...?

I’m glad that you don’t doubt a celestial can turn Thor into a frog but I feel your rationale that it never happened in a canon story or canonical sense is just untrue.






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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744


You do realize there were two identical Thor's in the Heroes Reborn Saga who fought one another correct?

That in of itself makes all of the events that transpired in Franklin's pocket universe not true.

I can provide a scan upon request.


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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:
    You do realize there were two identical Thor's in the Heroes Reborn Saga who fought one another correct?



    Quote:
    That in of itself makes all of the events that transpired in Franklin's pocket universe not true.



    Quote:
    I can provide a scan upon request.


http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Thor_Odinson_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)

They were not identical, one was a Thor construct created by Franklin, the other was the true Thor.

Dude, a 616 celestial turned a 616 Thor into a frog in a canonical sense. Get over it. The celestials would remember it and we the readers remember it. Whether Thor recalls because that part of his history changed or did not change, I don’t know, but it hardly matters. If Thor’s history changed, then relative to him, it didn’t happen. But relative to the celestials and we the readers, it did.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:
    You do realize there were two identical Thor's in the Heroes Reborn Saga who fought one another correct?

    Quote:

      Quote:
      That in of itself makes all of the events that transpired in Franklin's pocket universe not true.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I can provide a scan upon request.



    Quote:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Thor_Odinson_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)



    Quote:
    They were not identical, one was a Thor construct created by Franklin, the other was the true Thor.



    Quote:
    Dude, a 616 celestial turned a 616 Thor into a frog in a canonical sense. Get over it. The celestials would remember it and we the readers remember it. Whether Thor recalls because that part of his history changed or did not change, I don’t know, but it hardly matters. If Thor’s history changed, then relative to him, it didn’t happen. But relative to the celestials and we the readers, it did.


Get over it? Your tone now sounds like you should. I thought we were working as a team to get to the bottom of this.

Ok, I guess my memory is foggy then. I remember two Thors being in the story and was going to pull the issues out of my attic.

Regardless, it doesn't refute my assertion Avengers and FF origins had been changed from it's 616 histories. Why would 616 origins still be credible today and not Hero Reborn?

I never denied Hero Reborn saga was not canon just the events that transpired in Franklin pocket universe which was never 616 for reason stated above.






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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744


Like it's a win or lose competition of who's right or wrong here.

Please read the last paragraph under LEGACY from the link I've provided. I don't know how to explain better than what's stated there.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)




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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:
    Like it's a win or lose competition of who's right or wrong here.



    Quote:
    Please read the last paragraph under LEGACY from the link I've provided. I don't know how to explain better than what's stated there.



    Quote:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)


You were rude to me first, issued a challenge, and now you’re trying to manipulate and say we’re all friends here. To save face rather than owning up, you pour your efforts into researching Heroes Reborn and try to construct a philosophical argument of why you weren’t wrong, a very stubborn argument that hides behind generalities and ambiguity but you don’t tackle my pinpointed questions. You’re not reasonable and your continued attempts to debate just show how important being seen as right instead of owning up to you is.




Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:
    You were rude to me first, issued a challenge, and now you’re trying to manipulate and say we’re all friends here. To save face rather than owning up, you pour your efforts into researching Heroes Reborn and try to construct a philosophical argument of why you weren’t wrong, a very stubborn argument that hides behind generalities and ambiguity but you don’t tackle my pinpointed questions. You’re not reasonable and your continued attempts to debate just show how important being seen as right instead of owning up to you is.


Issuing a challenge is considered rude on here? They need to update the board post ethics because I was honestly unaware of this....my apologies.

Although personally I didn't perceive it as a challenge. I was working with you to find your source remember? Per my quote below to you--

"UMmmmm....what's hoarding all of your google search results and images is probably my reference, Loki turning Thor into a frog. Like yourself, I goggled Thor being turned into a frog and the only reference is Loki as the source. Is there anyone out there to validate/confirm Hammertime's proclamation Thor was turned into a frog other than by Loki?"

But you became frustrated and sarcastic when you couldn't find the source on your own--

"It’s all over for me now, you got me here. I don’t have the evidence you require. I admit I lied about the whole thing, and somebody else just happened to remember the same thing in precise detail but we’re both wrong. You win."

To which I replied:

"Huh? It's not about winning or losing. It's not that I didn't believe you, I just wanted to see and read it for myself to find out the circumstances surrounding what happened was all. It's not a competition on here my friend. I'm here to find out and learn things I don't know or didn't read for myself which was why I asked if anyone else could provide a reference.

Trust me, I've been wrong before and will inevitably be wrong again in the future. But in the end it's all about everyone having a good rapport on here and being friends."

Afterwards you made a new post to the forum asking for the source. Would-Be-Watcher responded and found it for both of us. BTW Thanks Watcher most appreciated!

You thanked Watcher and responded to him:

Awesome, thanks! I can’t believe it was that long ago...

And to Visitor who issued this challenge, you just got served, boiiiiiiiii visitation rights are over."

I had already addressed it wasn't a challenge to you above. I even asked the forum for help prior to your post asking for assistance.

Even BK Ray thought your response was inappropriate and wrote--

"Challenge? And how does Visitor issuing some kind of challenge, where you have been provided an answer means he had been owned? Honestly curious."

You took things personal from the start and I don't know why. You were right a Celestial turned Thor into a frog. I stated the Heroes Reborn Saga event was cannon and a Celestial has the power to turn Thor into a frog. The only point I didn't agree on was the events occurring in an alternate universe being 616 continuity.

That was it. I provided a link to support my case here but the entire link didn't copy over so I'll copy and paste a part of the info to you.

Please read the last paragraph in particular:

Legacy

Upon the heroes return to Earth-616, the Avengers would re-establish themselves on that Earth[46], as the group had been disbanded since the Onslaught incident. Of the Avengers who were shunted to Counter-Earth, Captain America, Iron Man, Vision, and the Scarlet Witch remained part of the active roster with everyone else going on reserve status[47]. Upon their return form Counter-Earth, Iron Man was be restored as an adult, retaining memories of his Earth-616, Earth-96020, and Counter-Earth counterparts[48]. The Wasp was also be restored to her human form, retaining her original powers prior to her mutation previous to the Onslaught incident[46]. Any enhancement that Falcon received from his exposure to the Counter-Earth variant of the Super-Soldier serum appear to have also been reversed.

On Counter-Earth, the Avengers left behind a legacy and bring new champions to defend that world from continuing chaos. Rebel O'Reilly obtained a suit of Iron Man's Promethian Armor and join a rebellion against Master Man's dominance of the west coast[49]. Stark's Iron Man technology was also be co-opted by SHIELD and used for their Iron Men army[50].

Swordsman contracted cancer and went insane and becoming the masked mercenary Deadpool. However before his descent into madness he encouraged Henry Pym's former janitor Ernest Sanger to start a group of heroes to replace those lost. They become the Remnants, Ernest wore Pym's Ant-Man armor, calling himself Mant. They failed to stopping Deadpool from unleashing a nuclear explosion that tore a hole in the fabric of time and space[51].

Carrying on the Avenger's legacy best was Captain America's former partner Bucky, who formed a group of young super-powered heroes together to become the Young Allies[52].

Lastly, following the events of M-Day, Onslaught would be reborn and seek to terrorize Franklin Richards anew. In order to escape Onslaught, Franklin would create another pocket dimension that would be an exact duplicate of Counter-Earth prior to the heroes departure. On this world, Franklin would create another team of Avengers based on the ones formed on Counter Earth[53].

I hope we can still remain friends on here. And I do appreciate you enlightening me on the event.

You need to copy and paste below line to your internet search bar to read everything in full.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)






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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


So, in the 616 universe, Onslaught happened, Franklin created an alternate universe where things seemed very different, but many mainstream Marvel characters went to that universe and existed, though in many cases their histories appeared different. Later, they came back to the mainstream, 616 universe.

I think we all agree on that much.

Then the question is, what is a real showing. When you use terms like 'all the events that transpired are not true', I absolutely disagree. They happened. Just like the events in What If's 'happened' at least within the context of their own universe. Whether they can be used to analyze 616 characters is a different thing and generally not useful.

That said, Age of Apocalypse gave us Xman, who interacted with 616 characters in the 616 universe, and his perspective may give us some insight into relative characters in both of those universes, though Nate's showings don't necessarily give us insight as to his own 616 counterpart's capabilities.

Now, we have a 616 character that went to Franklin's universe. There was another Thor there too. A 616 Celestial went to the pocket universe as well. That Celestial changed Thor into a frog. Yes, all that happened. There MAY be questions around it though.

Was it the 616 Thor that was changed? If so, was that Thor altered by Franklin in power level or function? How about the Celestial?

If it was indisputably the 616 Thor, then yes, a Celestial turned him into a frog. This would be true if it happened in the Marvel vs. DC crossover, or if Thor and the celestial traveled to the Ultimate Universe, or any other universe.

Likewise, if Spider Man and Thor are magically transported to one of the other universes referenced in Exiles and other comics, and there, those 616 characters faced off, and Spidey beat Thor, especially if it were written in the mainstream 616 comic, then Spider Man would have beaten Thor, and the showing would be canon.

In this case, to summarize, you may raise the question over whether Ashema changed Thor or a Thor construct created by Franklin into a frog, but at the end of the day, that it happened in a different setting does not negate that it happened, barring a retcon of some sort.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 7
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 892



    Quote:

      Quote:
      You were rude to me first, issued a challenge, and now you’re trying to manipulate and say we’re all friends here. To save face rather than owning up, you pour your efforts into researching Heroes Reborn and try to construct a philosophical argument of why you weren’t wrong, a very stubborn argument that hides behind generalities and ambiguity but you don’t tackle my pinpointed questions. You’re not reasonable and your continued attempts to debate just show how important being seen as right instead of owning up to you is.



    Quote:
    Issuing a challenge is considered rude on here? They need to update the board post ethics because I was honestly unaware of this....my apologies.



    Quote:
    Although personally I didn't perceive it as a challenge. I was working with you to find your source remember? Per my quote below to you--



    Quote:
    "UMmmmm....what's hoarding all of your google search results and images is probably my reference, Loki turning Thor into a frog. Like yourself, I goggled Thor being turned into a frog and the only reference is Loki as the source. Is there anyone out there to validate/confirm Hammertime's proclamation Thor was turned into a frog other than by Loki?"



    Quote:
    But you became frustrated and sarcastic when you couldn't find the source on your own--



    Quote:
    "It’s all over for me now, you got me here. I don’t have the evidence you require. I admit I lied about the whole thing, and somebody else just happened to remember the same thing in precise detail but we’re both wrong. You win."



    Quote:
    To which I replied:



    Quote:
    "Huh? It's not about winning or losing. It's not that I didn't believe you, I just wanted to see and read it for myself to find out the circumstances surrounding what happened was all. It's not a competition on here my friend. I'm here to find out and learn things I don't know or didn't read for myself which was why I asked if anyone else could provide a reference.



    Quote:
    Trust me, I've been wrong before and will inevitably be wrong again in the future. But in the end it's all about everyone having a good rapport on here and being friends."



    Quote:
    Afterwards you made a new post to the forum asking for the source. Would-Be-Watcher responded and found it for both of us. BTW Thanks Watcher most appreciated!



    Quote:
    You thanked Watcher and responded to him:



    Quote:
    Awesome, thanks! I can’t believe it was that long ago...



    Quote:
    And to Visitor who issued this challenge, you just got served, boiiiiiiiii visitation rights are over."



    Quote:
    I had already addressed it wasn't a challenge to you above. I even asked the forum for help prior to your post asking for assistance.



    Quote:
    Even BK Ray thought your response was inappropriate and wrote--



    Quote:
    "Challenge? And how does Visitor issuing some kind of challenge, where you have been provided an answer means he had been owned? Honestly curious."



    Quote:
    You took things personal from the start and I don't know why. You were right a Celestial turned Thor into a frog. I stated the Heroes Reborn Saga event was cannon and a Celestial has the power to turn Thor into a frog. The only point I didn't agree on was the events occurring in an alternate universe being 616 continuity.



    Quote:
    That was it. I provided a link to support my case here but the entire link didn't copy over so I'll copy and paste a part of the info to you.



    Quote:
    Please read the last paragraph in particular:



    Quote:
    Legacy



    Quote:
    Upon the heroes return to Earth-616, the Avengers would re-establish themselves on that Earth[46], as the group had been disbanded since the Onslaught incident. Of the Avengers who were shunted to Counter-Earth, Captain America, Iron Man, Vision, and the Scarlet Witch remained part of the active roster with everyone else going on reserve status[47]. Upon their return form Counter-Earth, Iron Man was be restored as an adult, retaining memories of his Earth-616, Earth-96020, and Counter-Earth counterparts[48]. The Wasp was also be restored to her human form, retaining her original powers prior to her mutation previous to the Onslaught incident[46]. Any enhancement that Falcon received from his exposure to the Counter-Earth variant of the Super-Soldier serum appear to have also been reversed.



    Quote:
    On Counter-Earth, the Avengers left behind a legacy and bring new champions to defend that world from continuing chaos. Rebel O'Reilly obtained a suit of Iron Man's Promethian Armor and join a rebellion against Master Man's dominance of the west coast[49]. Stark's Iron Man technology was also be co-opted by SHIELD and used for their Iron Men army[50].



    Quote:
    Swordsman contracted cancer and went insane and becoming the masked mercenary Deadpool. However before his descent into madness he encouraged Henry Pym's former janitor Ernest Sanger to start a group of heroes to replace those lost. They become the Remnants, Ernest wore Pym's Ant-Man armor, calling himself Mant. They failed to stopping Deadpool from unleashing a nuclear explosion that tore a hole in the fabric of time and space[51].



    Quote:
    Carrying on the Avenger's legacy best was Captain America's former partner Bucky, who formed a group of young super-powered heroes together to become the Young Allies[52].



    Quote:
    Lastly, following the events of M-Day, Onslaught would be reborn and seek to terrorize Franklin Richards anew. In order to escape Onslaught, Franklin would create another pocket dimension that would be an exact duplicate of Counter-Earth prior to the heroes departure. On this world, Franklin would create another team of Avengers based on the ones formed on Counter Earth[53].



    Quote:
    I hope we can still remain friends on here. And I do appreciate you enlightening me on the event.



    Quote:
    You need to copy and paste below line to your internet search bar to read everything in full.



    Quote:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_(Heroes_Reborn)_(Earth-616)



    Quote:


All right, it’s all good. No hard feelings on my part anymore. Take care.






Posted with Apple iPhone 11.0
Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 744



    Quote:
    So, in the 616 universe, Onslaught happened, Franklin created an alternate universe where things seemed very different, but many mainstream Marvel characters went to that universe and existed, though in many cases their histories appeared different. Later, they came back to the mainstream, 616 universe.


Thanks for your reply!


    Quote:
    I think we all agree on that much.


Indeed we do.


    Quote:
    Then the question is, what is a real showing. When you use terms like 'all the events that transpired are not true', I absolutely disagree. They happened. Just like the events in What If's 'happened' at least within the context of their own universe. Whether they can be used to analyze 616 characters is a different thing and generally not useful.


What I'm saying is events which transpired there occurred in an entirely different time-line. That time-line does not align with 616 continuity.


    Quote:
    That said, Age of Apocalypse gave us Xman, who interacted with 616 characters in the 616 universe, and his perspective may give us some insight into relative characters in both of those universes, though Nate's showings don't necessarily give us insight as to his own 616 counterpart's capabilities.



    Quote:
    Now, we have a 616 character that went to Franklin's universe. There was another Thor there too. A 616 Celestial went to the pocket universe as well. That Celestial changed Thor into a frog. Yes, all that happened. There MAY be questions around it though.


Like you stated, The Heroes Reborn Saga is no different than the old What-IF stories. They both utilized original 616 characters and placed them into a alternate reality with tweaks to origins, histories, and decisions/events that did not occur in our time=line therefore it is not true history as we know it. Did What-IF stories occur? Yes they did. Are they considered cannon in the sense these stories actually happened? Yes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, because they did happen. Are What-IF stories considered a part of 616 continuity. No they are not because outcomes were changed from 616 our time-stream.

Heroes Reborn and What-IF stories are also not 616 future which are true untainted cannon/continuity. They are an alternate universe/time-line which means ANYTHING can occur from the beginning. In the case of Heroes Reborn that is precisely what happened. As opposed to 616 time stream possibilities that change history due to a past/present decision, chance anomaly that changes a character(s)/Earth's future.


    Quote:
    Was it the 616 Thor that was changed? If so, was that Thor altered by Franklin in power level or function? How about the Celestial?


Good question. Hammer-time informed me of a Franklin created Thor construct. From the Heroes Reborn website -

"While most heroes were reborn instantly on this new world (later dubbed Counter-Earth), Thor was not. Instead Franklin constructed Counter-Earth's own version of Thor. The reason behind this is unknown, but it could be possible that Thor's godly nature prevented Franklin from transporting him to Counter-Earth right away and in order to maintain the reality he created, subconsciously created a Thor construct."

Why couldn't Franklin transport Thor initially along with everyone else? We don't know. Was his person, powers, abilities, mental state, etc the exact duplicate of his original self? We don't know for sure because Franklin couldn't do it the first time. Maybe Franklin had to modify something within Thor to make his appearance happen. All pure speculation because we don't know and will never know the answer to that.

Another question is, did Franklin universe compel Thor or other characters to act differently than they normally would? In other words was Franklin pulling any strings here or manipulating events? Were all of their actions of their own free will? Especially with their memories erased from the beginning?


    Quote:
    If it was indisputably the 616 Thor, then yes, a Celestial turned him into a frog. This would be true if it happened in the Marvel vs. DC crossover, or if Thor and the celestial traveled to the Ultimate Universe, or any other universe.


Do we know for certain all the laws and physics of other universes will always be the same as ours? There have been other stories in Marvel and DC in which universes/dimensions work on different set of laws. Some apparent and obvious others subtle but differences still exist. I've always been leery of other pocket dimensions but I see the need for it to create stories of course. And I'm not trying to come up with any excuses here, that's my own take on it.


    Quote:
    Likewise, if Spider Man and Thor are magically transported to one of the other universes referenced in Exiles and other comics, and there, those 616 characters faced off, and Spidey beat Thor, especially if it were written in the mainstream 616 comic, then Spider Man would have beaten Thor, and the showing would be canon.


If there were absolutely no changes to them to include histories, origins, or plot devices I would agree. Heck Spidey beat Firelord straight up in 616. Has that been retconned?


    Quote:
    In this case, to summarize, you may raise the question over whether Ashema changed Thor or a Thor construct created by Franklin into a frog, but at the end of the day, that it happened in a different setting does not negate that it happened, barring a retcon of some sort.


Ashema changed Thor into a frog. The scan has shown her doing so in an alternate universe. She has the power to change just about everyone in 616 as well.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


What if's are almost universally using characters from alternate universes. Regardless of what universe it happens in, they are alternate versions of a character.

In this situation, it could well be that they ARE the 616 character i.e. they are the same character. Yes, it happened in another universe, but it involves the same characters.

It IS possible the laws of physics in that universe are different, though we have nothing indicating that.

IMO, for the characters actually transported to the HR universe, showings between them are no different than showings in the 616 universe. The location doesn't matter and it is the equivalent of them fighting on the Shi'ar homeworld or whatever.


Or, are you saying that if 616 Thor and Hulk join Exiles, then travel to earth 167, get angry at each other and fight, then the result of that fight is non canon, just because it happened in another location, especially if there is no indication of 'differing laws of physics' or whatever? Even if there were different laws of physics, that the fight would happen between the two 616 versions of the character makes it canon....but, like when Hulk was hampered with Savage Banner, there may be mitigating circumstances.

Now, if it was the Thor construct that it happened to, its more in question, and more likely a non showing.





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