Community >> View Thread

Author
TheForgottenOne




I just read this truly FASCINATING article about Sweden-

http://socialistworld.net/eng/2009/10/2601.html

and it seems that in the early 90's they went through what appears to be the same exact (or close enough) economic crisis we are experiencing today. It lasted for 6-10 years before they finally got back on track and part of the reason is they became more socialistic in nature.

They also started started exporting a lot of stuff but I don't see that happening for America as we don't really produce anything that others want anymore other than tobacco (we don't even make TV's).

Socialism has become a dirty word these days with all of the inane Obama hatred, but it seems to have served Sweden, the most democratic country in the world, pretty well...

Food for thought.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
Casey Jones




Is to hold people accountable for their actions!

No more bailouts for auto companies that should've kept pace with their competitors.

No more bailouts for businesses that waste taxpayer money on first-class trips to beach or ski resorts.

No more media bias.

No more protection to illegal aliens who refuse to follow the proper channels to become a citizen of the United States of America.

No more college and university professors who brainwash our young people into thinking the United States of America is a vile country to live in.

No more politicans who put their careers or agendas ahead of the security of America and the lives of our soldiers.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000
TheForgottenOne




"No more college and university professors who brainwash our young people into thinking the United States of America is a vile country to live in."

I take offense to that. As a college student right now I assure that none of my teachers have ever tried to paint America as being bad. The simple truth is that reality is a lot different from the rose colored picture that nationalistic people have painted of America. The flip side of that coin is that America isn't as draconian or arrogant as some foreigners have made us out to be.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
glibby3




Personally, I think we already have too much socialism in the States and don't see adding more as being a good thing. What's wrong with working hard and getting rewarded for it. Nobody should be allowed to have the occupation of "walk to mailbox on 1st of the month". Unfortunately, I have relatives with that job description.

For me to jump on board the socialism train these are some of the things that would need to take place:

1. Everyone contributes to the pot equally whether it be financially or thru works/deeds. Exceptions can be made for seniors of little means and the "truly" disabled.

2. Our government, State and Federal, no longer waste our money worthless projects/programs.

3. No person of able body is allowed to sit on the couch watching Oprah and live off the labors of the rest of the populace.

4. Assistance is actually restricted to the amount that is necessary to live. If someone has enough money to get beer, cigarettes, a new tat, DVD's, and a pedicure then they are receiving too much assistance.

Some complain of class warfare in this country and I think an expansion of socialism in this country would only escalate the situation.

I'll share an anecdote for the type of thing that needs to be put to an end in this country:

A relative was complaining that they were unable to buy a bday cake for another young relative (under 10) because they were out of money. The bday fell at the end of the month. However, on Dec 2 they went shopping and posted pics of the new inflatable x-mas decorations they put in their yard.

When you drive around this holiday season take pride in the decorations you see because you may have helped pay for them.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
TheForgottenOne




People seem to think that socialism is when the government regulates everything and everybody gets treated exactly the same and made the same amount of money. This is patently false.

If you examine the history of socialism, which came about during the Industrial Revolution along with capitalism (although Marx would argue that some form of Capitalism, whether it be an Oligarchy or Feudalism, has always been around) you'll see that it doesn't make any sense for socialism to equate government control. The Industrial Revolution was one of several revolutions (American Revolution, French Revolution) that took power away from government control. Socialism and Capitalism were a response to how society was going to manage industry. Would only certain people be in charge (capitalism) or would everybody who works at the factory get a piece of the pie (socialism). That's what socialism is, workers having control over a means of production (unless you read Websters or American College dictionary but they are WRONG).

The money people make in Socialism is determined on how well the you the company you work at does. So if I work at McDonalds, and you work Burger King, and Burger King sells more food than you'll get paid more than I do. So in a way hard work matters more in socialism (because optimumly speaking the harder you work the better your company will do than it does in capitalism where your wages are determined by the whims of a boss.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
mjyoung




I couldn't even make it through the first paragraph. I'm not even sure what the point of the post was. What exactly are you advocating for? Are there political and economic ideas from Sweden that you think would be good for America?

Keep in mind that America and Sweden are vastly different countries with two very different cultures today.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.5 on Windows XP
TheForgottenOne




I'm not sure what's got you so confused. I'm not really advocating anything so much as pointing out that I thought it was interesting that Sweden went through something similiar. Obvioulsy all countries have had financial issues at one time, but reading that article made me think that lightning has struck twice.

According to the article Sweden had a very similiar culture in the early 90's when their economic issues started. So yes, I will indeed keep it in mind, but it doesn't change anything.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
mjyoung





    Quote:
    I'm not sure what's got you so confused. I'm not really advocating anything so much as pointing out that I thought it was interesting that Sweden went through something similar. Obviously all countries have had financial issues at one time, but reading that article made me think that lightning has struck twice.


You were advocating that socialism was a "cure of America", or at least wanted to discuss it.

So spoil me, how are the situations similar, as opposed to the fact that both had financial issues? Did Sweden have a great reduction of manufacturing due to the emergence of transforming into a service based economy? Did they have massive regulation and deregulation in major financial fields (banking, housing, etc)?


    Quote:
    According to the article Sweden had a very similiar culture in the early 90's when their economic issues started. So yes, I will indeed keep it in mind, but it doesn't change anything.


What? How was the Swedish culture in the 90s similar to the American one in the 90s? Talk specifics. Your statement there seems to be a complete contradiction.

I'm just asking you to talk with more detail.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.5 on Windows XP
TheForgottenOne




"You were advocating that socialism was a "cure of America", or at least wanted to discuss it."

No, I was pondering if it was a cure. But if you are so certain that that's what I'm advocating then why waste your time asking what I'm advocating?

Honestly I don't know what I was expecting. I just thought the article was interesting and decided to share it. You've decided to challenge me on the subject, which is the article, without reading it which seems peculiar. Do you just not like socialism?

"So spoil me, how are the situations similar, as opposed to the fact that both had financial issues? Did Sweden have a great reduction of manufacturing due to the emergence of transforming into a service based economy? Did they have massive regulation and deregulation in major financial fields (banking, housing, etc)?"

It's been a few days since I read it but the part that stuck out in my mind the most was how capitalism rotted out the system and business started...imploding.

"What? How was the Swedish culture in the 90s similar to the American one in the 90s? Talk specifics. Your statement there seems to be a complete contradiction."

There's no contradiction. In the 90's they were very capitalistic, as we are now, and after their financial crisis they became more socialistic which is where they are now. Actually they are a "social democracy" according to the article but they're certainly more socialist than they were in the 90's.

" I'm just asking you to talk with more detail."

I don't know how much more detail I can go into than providing the article that I'm talking about? If you don't want to read the article that's fine but...I don't see the point in continuing this conversation with somebody who's not really interested thinking about the basis of the conversation. Which is the article.





Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
TheForgottenOne




I thought you might find this part about banks to be interesting

"This right-wing policy of the social democracy paved the way for a crushing election defeat in September 1991. This coincided with the most severe crisis for Swedish capitalism since the 1920-30s. All the main crisis measures adopted by the conservative government of 1991-1994 were supported by the social democratic party, including the beginning of selling out state-owned companies. However, the crisis got worse, and in November 1992 not even a hike in the central bank's benchmark interest rates to 500 percent could stop the flight of speculative capital from the country. The government was forced to abandon the fixed exchange rate and carry out a devalutation. This was the dictatorship of the market. "The bank crisis was upon us. To prevent the system from collapsing, the central government was forced to rapidly intervene with a general, overall blanket guarantee that promised that all of the Swedish banks would meet all of their obligations, existing and future, towards all lenders." (A speech delivered by the central bank deputy governor, Lars Nyberg , March 2006). Several banks were nationalised or compelled to ask for public money to stay afloat.

The government spent four percent of gross domestic product, or at least 65-70 billion krona - 20 billion in today's U.S. dollars according to the New York Times - to save the banks. A budget surplus in 1990-91 was turned into a budget deficit of 10 percent of GDP in 1993-94 and gross public debt jumped from 43 percent of GDP in 1990 to 78 percent in 1994. However, when the social democrats returned to power in 1994, the debts and fiscal deficits became an excuse for a savage programme of spending cuts, tax increases and market orientated reforms. This programme was in main supported by the Left Party (the former Communist Party)."

Company's being nationalized is sort of familiar as well.



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
mjyoung





    Quote:
    No, I was pondering if it was a cure. But if you are so certain that that's what I'm advocating then why waste your time asking what I'm advocating?


Because I have a fascination with both economics, the American political system, and I even like Sweden just because of their relationships with guns.


    Quote:
    Honestly I don't know what I was expecting. I just thought the article was interesting and decided to share it. You've decided to challenge me on the subject, which is the article, without reading it which seems peculiar. Do you just not like socialism?


You are asking people to read a 4500 word document and for them to discuss it with you. At least provide some bullet points.

I have yet to discuss socialism at all really. And "socialism" is such a vague term, it's an ideal economic system, just like capitalism. There are many socialistic ideas I like, and many I dislike. Hence the reasons why I was asking for specifics to discuss.


    Quote:
    "What? How was the Swedish culture in the 90s similar to the American one in the 90s? Talk specifics. Your statement there seems to be a complete contradiction."



    Quote:
    " I'm just asking you to talk with more detail."



    Quote:
    I don't know how much more detail I can go into than providing the article that I'm talking about? If you don't want to read the article that's fine but...I don't see the point in continuing this conversation with somebody who's not really interested thinking about the basis of the conversation. Which is the article.


I don't think many people are going to read the article.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.5 on Windows XP
TheForgottenOne




"You are asking people to read a 4500 word document and for them to discuss it with you."

Yes? So? It's not exactly the 12 labors of Hercules. Would you be taking exception to me discussing a movie that takes 2 hours to watch as opposed to a article that takes maybe 20 minutes to read?

"I have yet to discuss socialism at all really. And "socialism" is such a vague term, it's an ideal economic system, just like capitalism. There are many socialistic ideas I like, and many I dislike. Hence the reasons why I was asking for specifics to discuss."

It's hard to go into detail about socialism since the biggest problem with socialism is that socialists can never agree on what socialism is. So the only thing that can really be said about socialism is that it's not as evil as people think it is and it's more complicated than capitalism.

"I don't think many people are going to read the article."

That's too bad. It's interesting.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
EcMan




First, I think it's great you found something you're interested in. I would offer a couple of cautions.

There are lots of different flavors of socialism and capitalism. I always laugh a little when people say we should be more socialist like Sweden. Of course they don't say we should be more socialist like Venezuela. Again, lots of different flavors.

Also, Sweden has moved somewhat in a more capitalist direction not a socialist direction, so the article is off there. Taxes have been lowered a little, they've deregulated some, etc.

Also, the article attributes Sweden's success to socialism. But of course, there are lots of other more compelling reasons Sweden is successful (generally free markets, property rights protections, highly educated workforce, etc.).

Finally, it is difficult to do in the US what Sweden does if for no other reason than the vast difference in size between the two countries.

-EcMan



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows XP
Incriptus


Location: Incriptus
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,738






Only Drax the Legend can quote Drax the Legend. NT · Drax the Legend
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista
TheForgottenOne




NT


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows Vista
Gernot 

Manager

Location: St. Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,418


We'll all be dead before it's anywhere near repaired enough to be called strong again.

Jobs are lost that will never be regained, and wages have taken so many hits that it'll be a L-O-N-G time before our corporate masters deign to pay the majority of the citizenry that work for them living wages.



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0; on Windows XP
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    We'll all be dead before it's anywhere near repaired enough to be called strong again.



    Quote:
    Jobs are lost that will never be regained, and wages have taken so many hits that it'll be a L-O-N-G time before our corporate masters deign to pay the majority of the citizenry that work for them living wages.


Heh I just got a raise ($5,000 more a year) and a 600 dollar christmas bonus. I'll be honest the rest of the world may be in the crapper but my financial status is better today than it ever has been.

Go economic ruin!!!!


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.16 on Windows Vista
Incriptus


Location: Incriptus
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,738






Only Drax the Legend can quote Drax the Legend. NT · Drax the Legend
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows Vista
Gernot 

Manager

Location: St. Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,418


Seriously, Rev, I'm happy for you. I just wish A-B would pay LIVING wages instead of MINIMUM wages. \:\(



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows XP
atalkingdog




Economic growth and prosperity in the United States has historically been higher when there were both higher tariffs or higher taxes on the rich and big corporations.

Sweden may have "private management" of new schools, railroads, etc, but those things are frequently publicly funded or indirectly subsidized through more elaborate regulations.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.20 on Windows Vista

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2022 Powermad Software