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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


I'm so used to putting spoilers in my posts, that I almost did this time as well. Lol. But this pertains to the recent controversies regarding Kathy Griffin and Bill Maher. As many of us know, the two of them have taken quite a lot of flack regarding some choice words that the two of them have said. And they got in trouble for it, and you have people coming out of the woodwork saying that this is a threat to free speech, or what about free speech? First of all, I agree that our culture has become too PC, and I hate it. I really don't have a problem with what Bill Maher said, especially since it's a joke. Bill and I are on opposite sides politically, but I still like him and watch the show. But people were uncomfortable with it, and he suffered some backlash. Fine! That is not a free speech issue, that's just other people using THEIR own Free Speech back.

The Kathy Griffin thing was different, as that's not really SPEECH, per se! Now I hate Trump too, and I hope that he gets impeached. But it was still a stupid and inappropriate thing to do. There's a BIIIIIG difference between making fun of Trump (Stephen Colbert.), or insulting and mocking him (Robert De Niro.), and what she did. It's not just pertaining to the President, it would pertain to ANY person! So she's suffering the consequences for that, as she should. And she got fired from her job at CNN and a few other gigs (I believe.). But of course there are some people out there who are saying that free speech is under attack, and that this is a Free Speech issue. Businesses also have freedom of ASSOCIATION, as do most employers. That means that they can disassociate from paying someone whose views they don't care for, or who will cause them negative publicity. It's really not to difficult to understand, but for some reason, everytime something like this happens (I remember this happening with Dr. Laura, I believe.), you have the usual ignorant people come out and do this. Sigh!


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Superman's Pal

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,751




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,774


Mostly agreed, but I really don't see a big difference in what she did. Yes, it was extreme, but not really different. It was still performance art. It just wasn't funny, or at best dark humour.

But yes, part of the whole free speech thing is that you have to suffer the consequences of your speech.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:
    I'm so used to putting spoilers in my posts, that I almost did this time as well. Lol. But this pertains to the recent controversies regarding Kathy Griffin and Bill Maher. As many of us know, the two of them have taken quite a lot of flack regarding some choice words that the two of them have said. And they got in trouble for it, and you have people coming out of the woodwork saying that this is a threat to free speech, or what about free speech? First of all, I agree that our culture has become too PC, and I hate it. I really don't have a problem with what Bill Maher said, especially since it's a joke. Bill and I are on opposite sides politically, but I still like him and watch the show. But people were uncomfortable with it, and he suffered some backlash. Fine! That is not a free speech issue, that's just other people using THEIR own Free Speech back.



    Quote:
    The Kathy Griffin thing was different, as that's not really SPEECH, per se! Now I hate Trump too, and I hope that he gets impeached. But it was still a stupid and inappropriate thing to do. There's a BIIIIIG difference between making fun of Trump (Stephen Colbert.), or insulting and mocking him (Robert De Niro.), and what she did. It's not just pertaining to the President, it would pertain to ANY person! So she's suffering the consequences for that, as she should. And she got fired from her job at CNN and a few other gigs (I believe.). But of course there are some people out there who are saying that free speech is under attack, and that this is a Free Speech issue. Businesses also have freedom of ASSOCIATION, as do most employers. That means that they can disassociate from paying someone whose views they don't care for, or who will cause them negative publicity. It's really not to difficult to understand, but for some reason, everytime something like this happens (I remember this happening with Dr. Laura, I believe.), you have the usual ignorant people come out and do this. Sigh!


I disagree some. And it really is a matter of how far one wants to take the first amendment. Many of those complaining about the later case now were happy to ignore some pretty bad images against Obama in the past. That does not make it ok, just hypocritical. I disliked what Griffin did but that does not make it against free speech.

Whatever art or whatever she wants to call what she was doing would be protected. Hate speech itself is protected. Unless it insights violence (which is hard to draw the line at times).

I think what we lose track of is what the First Amendment means. It is protection of speech (and other things) from government censorship. That means the government cannot retaliate to hearing things that they do not like. People are allowed to object and object in the worst way. It would not stop a secret service visit if somebody does something though for questioning etc.

The other things we lose track of is that people have a right to free speech in the sense of freedom of governmental reproach in the majority of cases. They also have the right to the backlash their speech would cause.

Politically, one side is always ignoring one or the other at their convenience.

On the aside, Trump will never be impeached with his party in both houses of Congress. Not just him, but historically the party of the president in power will defend. There would need to be something pretty obvious. Even with the latest obstruction of justice allegations. Even if they would or would not stand in a court the president has to be politically removed. So it is arbitrary.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,274



    Quote:
    I'm so used to putting spoilers in my posts, that I almost did this time as well. Lol. But this pertains to the recent controversies regarding Kathy Griffin and Bill Maher. As many of us know, the two of them have taken quite a lot of flack regarding some choice words that the two of them have said. And they got in trouble for it, and you have people coming out of the woodwork saying that this is a threat to free speech, or what about free speech? First of all, I agree that our culture has become too PC, and I hate it. I really don't have a problem with what Bill Maher said, especially since it's a joke. Bill and I are on opposite sides politically, but I still like him and watch the show. But people were uncomfortable with it, and he suffered some backlash. Fine! That is not a free speech issue, that's just other people using THEIR own Free Speech back.



    Quote:
    The Kathy Griffin thing was different, as that's not really SPEECH, per se! Now I hate Trump too, and I hope that he gets impeached. But it was still a stupid and inappropriate thing to do. There's a BIIIIIG difference between making fun of Trump (Stephen Colbert.), or insulting and mocking him (Robert De Niro.), and what she did. It's not just pertaining to the President, it would pertain to ANY person! So she's suffering the consequences for that, as she should. And she got fired from her job at CNN and a few other gigs (I believe.). But of course there are some people out there who are saying that free speech is under attack, and that this is a Free Speech issue. Businesses also have freedom of ASSOCIATION, as do most employers. That means that they can disassociate from paying someone whose views they don't care for, or who will cause them negative publicity. It's really not to difficult to understand, but for some reason, everytime something like this happens (I remember this happening with Dr. Laura, I believe.), you have the usual ignorant people come out and do this. Sigh!


...don't get me wrong the RIGHT I usually find more often in the wrong. But there seems to be a case of the overly left being overly PC and actually trying to tell others what they can and cannot say (recent College riots for example), but they have no problem when one of their own gets out of line.

Bill is fine...he really gets rough but nothing to really take a closer look at. What she dis was over the line...it wasn't hate speech it was more and hence she got a visit from the Secret Service. No legal action will be taken against her most likely because she wasn't truly calling for his death...but she has to face the executioner herself now and accept she has been "axed" from her job.

I know Obama suffered a lot of slander and even some hate speech...but I am not sure there were actual networks and comedians on the tv dismembering him.


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,165


to me, the problem was her "apology".

I don't really know who she is, but I saw that she did the bloody trump head thing. I dislike Trump as much as anyone, but obviously this was really dumb. But not illegal. But she does need to suffer the consequences socially for her choice (which is worse than a speech gaff, she clearly had time to think about what she was doing. It was only after people disliked it that she "apologised"")

Her apology was probably more insulting than anything. That she refused any responsibility and blamed Trump of all people, constantly repeating the "Its all the fault of old white men" trope. That she can blame phantom white men for her idiocy is even stupider that her stunt.

Its time idiots take some bloody responsibility for their free speech. I didn't see any old white men holding up a bloody severed head. Her tears are only that she got called out and her career should be over, not because she thinks there was anything wrong.

I recognise her right to hold up a severed head so she should recognise the fact it was her choice and not blame anyone but herself. And recognise that no one wants to be associated with her any more.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


Self-disclosure: I am a hardcore Libertarian, so I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of expression. However, a lot of those comments don't seem to understand (Or overlook.) that OTHER people have free speech also, some of those other people being executives and studio presidents. Besides, if CNN HAS to keep her on just because she has free speech, that would be FORCING them to pay and associate with her. Now whether CNN, etc, SHOULD can Kathy is a different issue (I think that they should. If for no other reason than that she seems to be blaming other people.), but I'm still baffled that we have the same people come out and throw out "Free Speech" and the "First Amendment." whenever a celebrity gets in trouble for saying or doing something controversial. And the sad thing is that I think that the majority of people don't understand how free speech works either.

As for Bill Maher, I saw the clip of the segment/show, and he was clearly joking. So, people are really getting worked up over nothing. Still, it was not an appropriate word to use, and hopefully Maher will be more careful in the future. HBO will hopefully keep his show. If they do cancel him because of that (And it's a safe bet that they won't.), well, it is still their network. So, yes, it's being overblown, but that's just the kind of stuff that happens when you speak in public.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


I actually watched the press conference that she gave on You Tube yesterday (Ah, to have a day or two off when you have 2-3 jobs.), and that whole thing about "Old white men" was kind of strange. The heck was that about? She acknowledged that what she did was inappropriate (Even Anderson Cooper and Chelsea Clinton said that.), and she should have just taken responsibility for it. Instead, she holds a press conference and talks about some (Nameless.) old white men giving her trouble. I don't think that she did herself ANY favors!


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,274



    Quote:
    Self-disclosure: I am a hardcore Libertarian, so I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of expression. However, a lot of those comments don't seem to understand (Or overlook.) that OTHER people have free speech also, some of those other people being executives and studio presidents. Besides, if CNN HAS to keep her on just because she has free speech, that would be FORCING them to pay and associate with her. Now whether CNN, etc, SHOULD can Kathy is a different issue (I think that they should. If for no other reason than that she seems to be blaming other people.), but I'm still baffled that we have the same people come out and throw out "Free Speech" and the "First Amendment." whenever a celebrity gets in trouble for saying or doing something controversial. And the sad thing is that I think that the majority of people don't understand how free speech works either.



    Quote:
    As for Bill Maher, I saw the clip of the segment/show, and he was clearly joking. So, people are really getting worked up over nothing. Still, it was not an appropriate word to use, and hopefully Maher will be more careful in the future. HBO will hopefully keep his show. If they do cancel him because of that (And it's a safe bet that they won't.), well, it is still their network. So, yes, it's being overblown, but that's just the kind of stuff that happens when you speak in public.


Agree Free-Speech does not mean not being held accountable for what one says. And if you cannot handle the reactions (as long as they arnt breaking the law themselves) maybe they should think before speaking them. By they I mean ANYONE. \:\)


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,774


Heck, it's even their main argument for discriminating against people.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,274



    Quote:
    Heck, it's even their main argument for discriminating against people.


We are seeing it more and more from the left. Comedians that cant tell their jokes because they are not PC, this Griffen chick playing the "victim card" because she is a woman. Attempting to turn it into a PC thing to allow her to get away with things without any responsibility and so on.

And nothing will improve until one side realizes this...until then its tribalism and terrible behaviors.

Trump is terrible...but this kind of behavior from the left is just helping him.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm so used to putting spoilers in my posts, that I almost did this time as well. Lol. But this pertains to the recent controversies regarding Kathy Griffin and Bill Maher. As many of us know, the two of them have taken quite a lot of flack regarding some choice words that the two of them have said. And they got in trouble for it, and you have people coming out of the woodwork saying that this is a threat to free speech, or what about free speech? First of all, I agree that our culture has become too PC, and I hate it. I really don't have a problem with what Bill Maher said, especially since it's a joke. Bill and I are on opposite sides politically, but I still like him and watch the show. But people were uncomfortable with it, and he suffered some backlash. Fine! That is not a free speech issue, that's just other people using THEIR own Free Speech back.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        The Kathy Griffin thing was different, as that's not really SPEECH, per se! Now I hate Trump too, and I hope that he gets impeached. But it was still a stupid and inappropriate thing to do. There's a BIIIIIG difference between making fun of Trump (Stephen Colbert.), or insulting and mocking him (Robert De Niro.), and what she did. It's not just pertaining to the President, it would pertain to ANY person! So she's suffering the consequences for that, as she should. And she got fired from her job at CNN and a few other gigs (I believe.). But of course there are some people out there who are saying that free speech is under attack, and that this is a Free Speech issue. Businesses also have freedom of ASSOCIATION, as do most employers. That means that they can disassociate from paying someone whose views they don't care for, or who will cause them negative publicity. It's really not to difficult to understand, but for some reason, everytime something like this happens (I remember this happening with Dr. Laura, I believe.), you have the usual ignorant people come out and do this. Sigh!



    Quote:
    ...don't get me wrong the RIGHT I usually find more often in the wrong. But there seems to be a case of the overly left being overly PC and actually trying to tell others what they can and cannot say (recent College riots for example), but they have no problem when one of their own gets out of line.


The later point applies to the right as much as the left. Maybe moreso given those on the right were likely to blast those on the left for things that now seem minor compared to what is happening. But it is ok because it is their guy.

I just do not see it as unique. It is not ok either way.

I also disagree a little depending on the riot example you are talking about. Rioting is not ok, but Ihave seen some use a freedom of speech while saying hateful things as almost a freedom from criticism or response. If statements are hateful and attacking others than it will draw a response. Rightly or wrongly.


    Quote:
    Bill is fine...he really gets rough but nothing to really take a closer look at. What she dis was over the line...it wasn't hate speech it was more and hence she got a visit from the Secret Service. No legal action will be taken against her most likely because she wasn't truly calling for his death...but she has to face the executioner herself now and accept she has been "axed" from her job.


Really folks like Ted Nugent and others have called for death before. Not much happens to them either. But it needs to be looked into.

Some, of whatever stripe, do get very angry about things. The question that should matter, at least to me, is why people are so angry. And does it seem reasonable that they are?


    Quote:
    I know Obama suffered a lot of slander and even some hate speech...but I am not sure there were actual networks and comedians on the tv dismembering him.


Not sure you paid much attention to Obama's presidency. Fox News is the obvious example and right wing media galvanized under him.

The main stream media also ran with many of the things that the GOP did and normalized behavior that apparently is now the standard in politics. It was hardly a love affair.

About anything is compared to what Trump is getting, but at the same time. Vast majority of that is his own fault.






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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:
    Self-disclosure: I am a hardcore Libertarian, so I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of expression. However, a lot of those comments don't seem to understand (Or overlook.) that OTHER people have free speech also, some of those other people being executives and studio presidents. Besides, if CNN HAS to keep her on just because she has free speech, that would be FORCING them to pay and associate with her. Now whether CNN, etc, SHOULD can Kathy is a different issue (I think that they should. If for no other reason than that she seems to be blaming other people.), but I'm still baffled that we have the same people come out and throw out "Free Speech" and the "First Amendment." whenever a celebrity gets in trouble for saying or doing something controversial. And the sad thing is that I think that the majority of people don't understand how free speech works either.


That is true. Although the First Amendment is more about protection from government censorship. It extends into other areas but they can generally retaliate differently. I find the whole thing gets pretty merky and arbitrary at times. But I guess one has the right to the consequences their speech brings.

Free speech is still ok if somebody says something offensive. Does not make what they say correct or ok though but legally they are allowed to say it. It is not a defense from accountability though. There are just limits on who can do that and they are not that strict.

IMO, the biggest danger with free speech in current society has more to do with everybody thinking freedom of expression or speech meaning that every opinion is equally valid. That is outright wrong. One can say something but it does not give them equal weight in a dialogue. Some things may be more open but there are large numbers of people that think it is ok to believe whatever and ignore truths.

And that to me is scarier than the other stuff.


    Quote:
    As for Bill Maher, I saw the clip of the segment/show, and he was clearly joking. So, people are really getting worked up over nothing. Still, it was not an appropriate word to use, and hopefully Maher will be more careful in the future. HBO will hopefully keep his show. If they do cancel him because of that (And it's a safe bet that they won't.), well, it is still their network. So, yes, it's being overblown, but that's just the kind of stuff that happens when you speak in public.







Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,274



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Self-disclosure: I am a hardcore Libertarian, so I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of expression. However, a lot of those comments don't seem to understand (Or overlook.) that OTHER people have free speech also, some of those other people being executives and studio presidents. Besides, if CNN HAS to keep her on just because she has free speech, that would be FORCING them to pay and associate with her. Now whether CNN, etc, SHOULD can Kathy is a different issue (I think that they should. If for no other reason than that she seems to be blaming other people.), but I'm still baffled that we have the same people come out and throw out "Free Speech" and the "First Amendment." whenever a celebrity gets in trouble for saying or doing something controversial. And the sad thing is that I think that the majority of people don't understand how free speech works either.



    Quote:
    That is true. Although the First Amendment is more about protection from government censorship. It extends into other areas but they can generally retaliate differently. I find the whole thing gets pretty merky and arbitrary at times. But I guess one has the right to the consequences their speech brings.



    Quote:
    Free speech is still ok if somebody says something offensive. Does not make what they say correct or ok though but legally they are allowed to say it. It is not a defense from accountability though. There are just limits on who can do that and they are not that strict.



    Quote:
    IMO, the biggest danger with free speech in current society has more to do with everybody thinking freedom of expression or speech meaning that every opinion is equally valid. That is outright wrong. One can say something but it does not give them equal weight in a dialogue. Some things may be more open but there are large numbers of people that think it is ok to believe whatever and ignore truths.



    Quote:
    And that to me is scarier than the other stuff.


"The right to free speech is not the right to be taken seriously."

So definitely agree a lot is said that is utter malarkey.

P.S. Malarky is a bird? I forget its origination. \:\)


    Quote:

      Quote:
      As for Bill Maher, I saw the clip of the segment/show, and he was clearly joking. So, people are really getting worked up over nothing. Still, it was not an appropriate word to use, and hopefully Maher will be more careful in the future. HBO will hopefully keep his show. If they do cancel him because of that (And it's a safe bet that they won't.), well, it is still their network. So, yes, it's being overblown, but that's just the kind of stuff that happens when you speak in public.



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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,774


No one really knows where "malarkey" comes from, beyond the mind of 1920s cartoonist T A Doran. There is a similar Irish name, but no link is established.


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