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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989


This is a reply to Jesusfan, following a discussion on the Doctor Who board, which has turned into a discussion on religion.

Apologies for any confusion caused.




    Quote:
    So you claim to be smarter than God?



    Quote:
    Nice trick!


Well, I only actually claimed to be smarter than Jesus. But now you come to mention it...

Yes, I'm smarter than the god too.

The bible is basically a list of god's failures. Just take a look at his three 'greatest hits': First, the creation itself. He makes the universe, makes the world, then tops it with his greatest creation...man. And man was supposed to live in paradise - Eden -forever. Didn't end well.

A few thousand years later, god sees his creation isn't going the way he wants, and comes up with plan B: To become the greatest mass murderer in history by sending a flood. But the 8 people he lets live will have offspring who will be as good as them and put the world to rights, right?

Wrong. Failure #2.

God's last attempt to sort things out happens 2000 years ago. The great plan? To send himself to Earth disguised as a man so that he can sacrifice himself TO himself so that he can forgive us.

However, he decides to materialise not in the most powerful country on the planet, not in the most prosperous, or populous, or most civilised, but in one of the most backwards and brutal countries in the middle east. And 'proclaims' his message through authority, personal revelation and prophecy. Basically in ways that absolutely guarantee that whole swathes of humanity won't believe it.

At this point, god's 0 for 3 and swinging wildly.


But his failure goes deeper than that.

Imagine that you are god. Standing in a time before the creation. You can do anything you want. Create whatever you want in whichever way you want. NOTHING is beyond you.

Wouldn't you create a better world than the one we've got? Wouldn't you make humans better than they are? Put them in a universe that's not 99.9% lethal to them? Create a world without bone cancer for children (Or cancer at all, come to that), without diseases that cause terrible, painful deaths? Where there are no predators that can kill you? Where food is plentiful for everyone?

No, sorry, but the Christian god shows an incredible lack of imagination.

And yes, I can outthink him at every turn.

Am I smarter than god? You bet. By a country mile.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Well...

God created the entire Universe from NOTHING, as he only is ternal, and so can you do that, or can science explain how that the matter and energy that can never be destroyed/created really came forth from nothing then?

And God gave to manking free will, so any and all failure would be due to our choices, and not to do with God...

His ONLY plan has always been to have the sin of all of mankind dealt with, as that was provided for us in the death of the Son of God jesus Himself...

God will one day judge all evil and sin, so we all shoiudl be glad that Hitler and jack the ripper did not jsut get away with their crines period.

The resurrection of jesus is perhaps the single most attested to nd documented event of the historical past, for what cause a band of misfits become bold enough to stand up to the might of Rome, unless they actually believed that they had seen the risen Jesus?

And why did a fervent enemy of Jesus, Saul of tarsus become his greatest follower overnight? n of being smart enough, its being willing to look at all ofthe facts in an honest and objective manner!





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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091


I consider myself to be Christian most of the time but there are issues.


    Quote:
    Well...



    Quote:
    God created the entire Universe from NOTHING, as he only is ternal, and so can you do that, or can science explain how that the matter and energy that can never be destroyed/created really came forth from nothing then?



    Quote:
    And God gave to manking free will, so any and all failure would be due to our choices, and not to do with God...


Job. One could also argue storms and make the general arguments about the existence of evil.


    Quote:
    His ONLY plan has always been to have the sin of all of mankind dealt with, as that was provided for us in the death of the Son of God jesus Himself...



    Quote:
    God will one day judge all evil and sin, so we all shoiudl be glad that Hitler and jack the ripper did not jsut get away with their crines period.


Hitler killed himself watching his empire fall around him in paranoia and despair. He was not officially tried but it is not like he just went off either.


    Quote:
    The resurrection of jesus is perhaps the single most attested to nd documented event of the historical past, for what cause a band of misfits become bold enough to stand up to the might of Rome, unless they actually believed that they had seen the risen Jesus?


Is it? Part of the issue is much of the evidence for the Bible is the Bible. So if one accepts it as true than they are good with it. From an academic verification of any given event outside sources would be better.

They may exist but I am not aware of them.


    Quote:
    And why did a fervent enemy of Jesus, Saul of tarsus become his greatest follower overnight? n of being smart enough, its being willing to look at all ofthe facts in an honest and objective manner!



    Quote:








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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


There are several historians who validated the existence of Jesus, that he was tried and executed by Pontius Pilte...

The things about the resurrection are: Where is His body, if all of the Apostles knew it was just a lie/myth, NONE cracked and give it up? And why have women has being the first eyewitnesses to that event, as they meant little as testimonies at that time, and again, why did paul change and die for sake of Jesus?


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:
    There are several historians who validated the existence of Jesus, that he was tried and executed by Pontius Pilte...


Or a figure that is like Jesus.


    Quote:
    The things about the resurrection are: Where is His body, if all of the Apostles knew it was just a lie/myth, NONE cracked and give it up? And why have women has being the first eyewitnesses to that event, as they meant little as testimonies at that time, and again, why did paul change and die for sake of Jesus?


1. The first one is not good evidence. As even if one assumes he existed it does not promise finding a body after that many years or being able to tell it apart if you did.

2. Who said it was a lie or a myth? The Bible itself was written a fair bit after the events it describes.

3. I do not follow the woman thing.

I find that some things one has to take more on faith myself.






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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    Well...



    Quote:
    God created the entire Universe from NOTHING, as he only is ternal, and so can you do that, or can science explain how that the matter and energy that can never be destroyed/created really came forth from nothing then?


How do you know the universe came from nothing?

Our physics can only take us back to a split second after the big bang, and even then can only describe what happened IN this universe. But nature never to our knowledge makes anything in ones. Why only one universe? We may well live in an eternal multiverse, which may in itself be part of an even bigger structure.

So you can't definitively say the universe came from nothing.

    Quote:
    And God gave to manking free will, so any and all failure would be due to our choices, and not to do with God...


If you give people free will, and then get pissy because you don't like the choices they make, and threaten them with eternal agony if they don't do exactly as you say, then they don't have free will. That's a dictatorship.


    Quote:
    His ONLY plan has always been to have the sin of all of mankind dealt with, as that was provided for us in the death of the Son of God jesus Himself...



    Quote:
    God will one day judge all evil and sin, so we all shoiudl be glad that Hitler and jack the ripper did not jsut get away with their crines period.


How do we know that? Maybe Hitler and Jack truly repented before their deaths. Now, your religion tells us that if that's the case, they're in paradise today. So, they really did get away with it.

That's about as far removed from a just system as I can possibly imagine.


    Quote:
    The resurrection of jesus is perhaps the single most attested to nd documented event of the historical past, for what cause a band of misfits become bold enough to stand up to the might of Rome, unless they actually believed that they had seen the risen Jesus?


Rubbish. it's attested to a grand total of three times (Matthew, Luke and John), and as at least two of those used the same source, the number of independent attestations may be as low as...one, and even that not a first-hand eyewitness testimony.


    Quote:
    And why did a fervent enemy of Jesus, Saul of tarsus become his greatest follower overnight? n of being smart enough, its being willing to look at all ofthe facts in an honest and objective manner!


A combination of sunstroke, and probably a huge guilt trip at being a murderer. No mystery there.

The REAL question is: If Saul's story is true, why did god choose ONLY to reveal himself to him? Why not to his travelling companions too? Come to that, why not to everyone one Earth? THAT would solve the question of belief in seconds.

Aaaaaand...I've just out-thought god again!




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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    There are several historians who validated the existence of Jesus, that he was tried and executed by Pontius Pilte...


Not one historian anywhere can validate the existence of Jesus. There are no records of his birth, death, trial and execution...nothing. No one - no one at all - wrote about him during his lifetime. All we have are a handful of Christian writings by someone who never met him (Paul), and four gospels produced long after his death, again produced by people who didn't know him.

So his existence can't be definitively validated.

However, for various technical reasons concerning the gospels themselves the majority of historians (Even the atheist ones) think that it's probable that he did exist. What they DON'T think though, is that he was anything more than a man. They don't think he was divine at all.


    Quote:
    The things about the resurrection are: Where is His body, if all of the Apostles knew it was just a lie/myth, NONE cracked and give it up? And why have women has being the first eyewitnesses to that event, as they meant little as testimonies at that time, and again, why did paul change and die for sake of Jesus?


Where is his body?

Buried in a mass grave somewhere in the vicinity of Golgotha.

Despite the gospel accounts, there is no ancient source that says anyone was ever let down from the cross. Whenever crucifixion was used as a method of execution, the bodies were always left there until they rotted as a warning to anyone thinking about taking on Rome.

The gospel accounts of Jesus' body being removed within hours and placed in a tomb are without doubt fictions.

Why were women used as the first witnesses?

Because there was no way around it. Women were traditionally the ones to prepare bodies after death. If the gospel authors had used men - the disciples for example - it would have cast suspicion on the story.

This Saul thing again...

Yes, he came to believe in Jesus, and yes, he died for his faith. But that's meaningless. Please understand it's not a good argument. Just because someone THINKS something is true, that doesn't mean it IS true, no matter how convinced they are.

The muslims who destroyed the Twin Towers were all convinced that Jesus was only a prophet and not divine, that Christianity is wrong and Islam is the one true religion. And THEY were so convinced of it that THEY died for it.

Does that make their beliefs true?

Of course not. But by your argument, it does.


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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989




    Quote:
    I find that some things one has to take more on faith myself.


The only part of everything you've said that I disagree with. Faith is far and away one of the least reliable paths to truth and knowledge that was ever invented.

You can test it yourself in two minutes flat, just using religion.

Assuming Christianity is the one true religion, Christians get to their position primarily on faith. So far so good. faith has a 100% success rate.

But what about Islam? Moslems get to their position primarily on faith too. And if Christianity is right, then they MUST be wrong.

Now faith isn't doing too well. It's success rate is down to only 50%. And we've only plugged in one other religion. But there have been thousands of religions over the millennia. If Christianity is the only correct one, then all the others are wrong, and the success rate of faith falls to a fraction of one per cent. So it's very, very unreliable as a method of deciding what's true.

And that's going on the assumption that Christianity is true. If it isn't, then faith falls to a 0% success rate.

So how do we determine whether Christianity is true? How do we determine whether the Christian's faith is justified?

We certainly can't use faith to do it. We need other methods. Proper, scientific methods.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    God created the entire Universe from NOTHING, as he only is ternal, and so can you do that, or can science explain how that the matter and energy that can never be destroyed/created really came forth from nothing then?


The original question was whether Ancient One is smarter than God, not whether he's more powerful. Don't move the goal posts. Also, there's no proof that God created the universe or that there even is a God. Whenever I get into debates over the proposition, "God exists," I don't focus on the "exists" part but on the "God" part. Try to define "God" in something more than vague generalities. You can't. How can you know something exists when you don't even know what that something is? Is He physical? Is He somewhere in the universe such that you can locate Him? What does He look like? Smell like? Is He composed of atoms? Is He something else? If so, what? You don't know. What does it mean for something undefinable to exist? It means nothing.


    Quote:
    And God gave to manking free will, so any and all failure would be due to our choices, and not to do with God...


What makes you think we have free will? Certainly our genes contribute to our attributes and thus to our decision making. Certainly the environment in which we grew up affects our preferences. If you want an ice cream after seeing a commercial, is that your free will doing the choosing? Companies pay millions of dollars for ads. If those ads didn't work, then they wouldn't exist. If you're taught by birth to be Muslim, it's highly unlikely you would choose Christianity as your religion. Isn't that really, really unfair for God to hold an Iranian to the same standards as someone born in the United States and condemn them to Hell for being an unbeliever? But if you don't think biology or environment affects your choices, then what does it mean to choose? It's either a causal determination or it's random. If it's random, is that really a choice either? No.


    Quote:
    His ONLY plan has always been to have the sin of all of mankind dealt with, as that was provided for us in the death of the Son of God jesus Himself...


That couldn't have been his ONLY plan. The Bible is filled with tons of other stuff too, and as Ancient One notes, several of God's failures.


    Quote:
    God will one day judge all evil and sin, so we all shoiudl be glad that Hitler and jack the ripper did not jsut get away with their crines period.


Didn't Jesus say not to judge? Aren't you judging right here and therefore being un-Christian-like?


    Quote:
    The resurrection of jesus is perhaps the single most attested to nd documented event of the historical past, for what cause a band of misfits become bold enough to stand up to the might of Rome, unless they actually believed that they had seen the risen Jesus?


Uh, virtually all of actual history is better attested to and documented than the resurrection of Jesus. Basically no non-Christian historian considers Jesus' resurrection to be fact and there's some question as to whether Jesus even existed.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903





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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:


      Quote:
      I find that some things one has to take more on faith myself.



    Quote:
    The only part of everything you've said that I disagree with. Faith is far and away one of the least reliable paths to truth and knowledge that was ever invented.


I did not make it as a claim of knowledge really. More for spirituality. Which I admit is illogical. I usually flip between agnostic or Christian but the version of Christianity I would follow is different than most views I know of. So, a heretic either way.


    Quote:
    You can test it yourself in two minutes flat, just using religion.



    Quote:
    Assuming Christianity is the one true religion, Christians get to their position primarily on faith. So far so good. faith has a 100% success rate.



    Quote:
    But what about Islam? Moslems get to their position primarily on faith too. And if Christianity is right, then they MUST be wrong.



    Quote:
    Now faith isn't doing too well. It's success rate is down to only 50%. And we've only plugged in one other religion. But there have been thousands of religions over the millennia. If Christianity is the only correct one, then all the others are wrong, and the success rate of faith falls to a fraction of one per cent. So it's very, very unreliable as a method of deciding what's true.



    Quote:
    And that's going on the assumption that Christianity is true. If it isn't, then faith falls to a 0% success rate.



    Quote:
    So how do we determine whether Christianity is true? How do we determine whether the Christian's faith is justified?



    Quote:
    We certainly can't use faith to do it. We need other methods. Proper, scientific methods.


I sort of laid out above my sort of thoughts on this, start of the post.

I mean the fact that there are so many offshoots and views of the Bible alone makes it worthy of skepticism. And I dislike that folks use religion to oppress other people.

That said, I do go back and forth with it in my own mind. Usually it does not come up much. As I am opposed to religion having much sway in really any public sphere and more importantly academic sphere. To me spirituality is an intensely personal matter. For that matter, for some spirituality may have nothing to do with spirit but simply establishing their own guiding philosophy. I am cool with that. To each their own. Whatever one wants to call it is fine by me.





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Paul used the phrase that had Jesus beiung in the very form of God, and deciding to come to Earth as a servant in Phillipians, and historians trace that held belief to with 2 years of the actual time of the death of jesus. So within a few years there was already theolgy agreed upon that Jesus was divine, and was the sent Messiah, who was raised from the dead. All of the Gospels also were written by either direct eyewitneeses to all of those facts recorded down, as well as interviewing those who were right there.

Again, all you have to do is to raise the dead, heal illnesses, and get raised back from certifierd death in order to disprove this!

Jesus saw Himself as nbeing the Son of Mna/God, and that ones eternal destiny was tied into how you viewed Him...




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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    Paul used the phrase that had Jesus beiung in the very form of God, and deciding to come to Earth as a servant in Phillipians, and historians trace that held belief to with 2 years of the actual time of the death of jesus. So within a few years there was already theolgy agreed upon that Jesus was divine, and was the sent Messiah, who was raised from the dead. All of the Gospels also were written by either direct eyewitneeses to all of those facts recorded down, as well as interviewing those who were right there.


Again...Paul believed what Paul believed, but that doesn't automatically make it true. Or do you believe everything that Mohammed said too? How about Joseph Smith? Do you think he really saw an angel in upstate New York who instructed him to form the Mormon faith? What about L Ron Hubbard? Was he right to believe in Thetans?

I'm betting you don't believe in any of the latter, while happy to believe in Paul. But that's cherry picking. All of them are just argument from authority, and that's crummy evidence.

All four gospels were written anonymously. The names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are nothing but guesswork by the early church. We don't know WHO wrote those books.

Who was right there? Who?

Who was standing in the room when Mary became pregnant by god? Did she have an audience? Did she sell tickets?

Who was present at Jesus' birth? Did the shepherds give interviews? How about the three kings? And most tellingly, why didn't those three kings proclaim this miracle far and wide in their own lands?

Why do ONLY two gospels even bother to report the birth? Wasn't it important enough for Mark and John? (Clue: It wasn't).

Who was present to record Jesus' words and deeds when he went into the desert and was tempted by Satan? Or when he prayed ALONE in the garden before his arrest? No one.

Did Pilate give an interview regarding Jesus' trial? Are there transcripts? Did the guards give interviews?

Many of these stories must, by definition, be stories. Conjecture.

And the stories vary from gospel to gospel. Jesus' birth is reported differently in both of the gospels that tell it, and differ in important ways that can't be reconciled. Jesus has four different death scenes. His words and attitude, and the events themselves are different in each gospel.


    Quote:
    Again, all you have to do is to raise the dead, heal illnesses, and get raised back from certifierd death in order to disprove this!


Really? That's your criteria? Then you should believe that Appolonius of Tyana is the true son of god too. Because he was a real person who lived at the same time as Jesus who's followers claimed that he (Appolonius) cast out demons, healed the sick and, yes, he even raised the dead. Oh, and was the one true son of god.

And what do you mean 'certified' death? Can you produce Lazarus' death certificate? Of course you can't. So nothing about any story of Jesus raising someone from the dead can possibly be substantiated historically. Nothing can be 'certified' It's all just anecdotal evidence, which again, is not good evidence.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


The 4 Gospels were all wriiten by those who were either ewyewitness to the time and life of Jesus, or has access to direct eyewitnesses...

Jesus held to Himself as being sent here on a divine mission from God, and more than that, identified Himself as being the very God the the Jewish people, as the One whop spoke to Abraham/moses...

Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of Allah, but jesus claimed to be that very God...

ALL it took was someone to produce the still dead body of Jesus, and there goes Christianity down the drain...

You think NONE had access to that body if was still deak in the tomb?

And that person that you mentioned, there was NO eyewitness confirmation of any of his miracles, nor ANY actual historical evidnce to back any of his stories up, unlike Jesus, who was attested too by the Jewish leaders as being a miracle worker, who claimed to be Messiah, and his own followers, and Roamn historians who could care less about Him and Christianity, but who attested to jesus being a person held to be the Messiah and as a "god" from the very stat of Christianity.

The followers of Jesus were strict believers in One God, as the Muslims are, can you imagine what event it would take to have them all affirm that this man was alkso God?




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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    The 4 Gospels were all wriiten by those who were either ewyewitness to the time and life of Jesus, or has access to direct eyewitnesses...


They were written anonymously. There were no names on the original manuscripts, nor on any of the earliest copies. The authors themselves don't tell us who they are. It's all guesswork on the part of the early church.


    Quote:
    Jesus held to Himself as being sent here on a divine mission from God, and more than that, identified Himself as being the very God the the Jewish people, as the One whop spoke to Abraham/moses...



    Quote:
    Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of Allah, but jesus claimed to be that very God...


Mohammed also claimed that Jesus wasn't divine. So what? Claims are EASY to make. Proving them is much harder.


    Quote:
    ALL it took was someone to produce the still dead body of Jesus, and there goes Christianity down the drain...


Do we have the bodies of Mary? Joseph? Any of Jesus' brothers and sisters? His grandparents? We don't have ANY of those bodies, and they weren't all physically resurrected.

The lack of Jesus' body is quite trivial. If the gospels are true, his body doesn't exist on Earth anymore. If they're false, then his body is lying in a mass, unmarked grave and is impossible to identify. Even DNA couldn't help unless we could verify that we have DNA from other members of his family to compare it with.

But archaeologists have uncovered some of these graves. We may already have Jesus' bones. There's no way of telling.


    Quote:
    You think NONE had access to that body if was still deak in the tomb?


Once again, it's incredibly unlikely that his body was ever placed in a tomb. It just didn't happen (Victims being taken from the cross and returned to their families).


    Quote:
    And that person that you mentioned, there was NO eyewitness confirmation of any of his miracles, nor ANY actual historical evidnce to back any of his stories up, unlike Jesus, who was attested too by the Jewish leaders as being a miracle worker, who claimed to be Messiah, and his own followers, and Roamn historians who could care less about Him and Christianity, but who attested to jesus being a person held to be the Messiah and as a "god" from the very stat of Christianity.


Oh yes, there most certainly was.

His followers claimed to have witnessed these miracles. His life was recorded primarily by Philostratus, but also by others such as Cassius Dio mention him and reference his miracles. He's mentioned in Islamic texts. Early Christians met with and argued with followers of Appolonius over who was the true son of god.

There's basically exactly the same kind of evidence for Appolonius as there is for Jesus: Anecdotal evidence, and argument from authority. None of which is very credible.


    Quote:
    The followers of Jesus were strict believers in One God, as the Muslims are, can you imagine what event it would take to have them all affirm that this man was alkso God?


Yes, of course I can imagine. The credulous will believe anything on poor or no evidence. If you already believe in sky fairies, it's not much of a leap to believe in a half-human sky fairy.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


The basic problem here is that there is indeed historical proofs for Jesus , and for Christianity, but its not a lack of facts, its a lack of faith!


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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    The basic problem here is that there is indeed historical proofs for Jesus , and for Christianity, but its not a lack of facts, its a lack of faith!


Yes indeed. But not one shred of historical proof of his divinity, nor that a god exists.

A lack of faith is a wonderful thing to have. Or, to put it another way, faith is a dumb thing to have. See my reply to bd2999 at the bottom of this thread.

We need FAR better methods of discovering the truth of scripture than faith. And we have them. Proper, tried and tested scientific methods that really do tell us the truth about the world and the universe we live in.

Faith is nothing but a barrier to people's knowledge.

Fact: The Earth is much older than 10,000 years old. The universe is far older again.

Fact: Genesis didn't happen. Evolution did.

Fact: There was no worldwide flood.

Science and scholarship has told us many other facts about the bible that prove whole swathes of it to be nothing more than myth. It's historically inaccurate. It has many, many errors. It contradicts itself in many other places.

Faith stops many Christians from accepting these facts as truth. And that's okay. That's cool. The world will keep turning and knowledge will keep increasing whether they participate or not. Doesn't matter. The facts aren't going to go away, not all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to make that happen. Christians have been trying for a century and a half to disprove Darwin. Not going to happen. All that's happening is that Christians are getting more and more out of touch with current knowledge.

Forget the rapture. If you truly want to get 'left behind'...

Have faith.


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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,589




    Quote:

      Quote:
      God created the entire Universe from NOTHING, as he only is ternal, and so can you do that, or can science explain how that the matter and energy that can never be destroyed/created really came forth from nothing then?



    Quote:
    The original question was whether Ancient One is smarter than God, not whether he's more powerful. Don't move the goal posts. Also, there's no proof that God created the universe or that there even is a God. Whenever I get into debates over the proposition, "God exists," I don't focus on the "exists" part but on the "God" part. Try to define "God" in something more than vague generalities. You can't. How can you know something exists when you don't even know what that something is? Is He physical? Is He somewhere in the universe such that you can locate Him? What does He look like? Smell like? Is He composed of atoms? Is He something else? If so, what? You don't know. What does it mean for something undefinable to exist? It means nothing.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      And God gave to manking free will, so any and all failure would be due to our choices, and not to do with God...



    Quote:
    What makes you think we have free will? Certainly our genes contribute to our attributes and thus to our decision making. Certainly the environment in which we grew up affects our preferences. If you want an ice cream after seeing a commercial, is that your free will doing the choosing? Companies pay millions of dollars for ads. If those ads didn't work, then they wouldn't exist. If you're taught by birth to be Muslim, it's highly unlikely you would choose Christianity as your religion. Isn't that really, really unfair for God to hold an Iranian to the same standards as someone born in the United States and condemn them to Hell for being an unbeliever? But if you don't think biology or environment affects your choices, then what does it mean to choose? It's either a causal determination or it's random. If it's random, is that really a choice either? No.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      His ONLY plan has always been to have the sin of all of mankind dealt with, as that was provided for us in the death of the Son of God jesus Himself...



    Quote:
    That couldn't have been his ONLY plan. The Bible is filled with tons of other stuff too, and as Ancient One notes, several of God's failures.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      God will one day judge all evil and sin, so we all shoiudl be glad that Hitler and jack the ripper did not jsut get away with their crines period.



    Quote:
    Didn't Jesus say not to judge? Aren't you judging right here and therefore being un-Christian-like?

That was a message to men with skeletons in the closet about to stone a woman. You're always supposed to make judgements though.

https://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The resurrection of jesus is perhaps the single most attested to nd documented event of the historical past, for what cause a band of misfits become bold enough to stand up to the might of Rome, unless they actually believed that they had seen the risen Jesus?



    Quote:
    Uh, virtually all of actual history is better attested to and documented than the resurrection of Jesus. Basically no non-Christian historian considers Jesus' resurrection to be fact and there's some question as to whether Jesus even existed.






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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Yes, as jesus point was not to judge others without first showing the same standard upon yourself first!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Evolution has NO realcientific proof/truths behind it, as it was created in order to fit a worldvirew that denies there is a God.

Where and how did first life originate gere on earth?

Has there EVER been observed/shown a change from obne species/kind into another one?

And how and what would cause the Dna to add extra data in order to make that change, as there is NO known way to have that done in the wild?

And do you see mankind as just another animal,no different than apes and other primates, or are we different and unique in some fashion?





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Christianity all holds up is falls down based upon the person of jesus Christ!


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    Evolution has NO realcientific proof/truths behind it, as it was created in order to fit a worldvirew that denies there is a God.


Evolution is one of the best proven scientific theories there is.


    Quote:
    Where and how did first life originate gere on earth?


Science has many hypotheses regarding that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis


    Quote:
    Has there EVER been observed/shown a change from obne species/kind into another one?


Yes, extensively, throughout the fossil record.


    Quote:
    And how and what would cause the Dna to add extra data in order to make that change, as there is NO known way to have that done in the wild?


You don't know much about evolution, do you? Because one of the main components of evolution is mutation and genetic variation. Not knowing one of the most basic foundations of the theory means you're hardly qualified to judge it.


    Quote:
    And do you see mankind as just another animal,no different than apes and other primates, or are we different and unique in some fashion?


Answering this question requires some qualifications, but humans are indeed animals. Of course homo sapiens are different from other primates or there would be no species distinction.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    Yes, as jesus point was not to judge others without first showing the same standard upon yourself first!


Which you haven't done given your take on the Charlottesville incident.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    Christianity all holds up is falls down based upon the person of jesus Christ!


This reminds me of a somewhat off-tangent story. My neighbor John was born in 1950 and was a big hippie in the late 60s/early 70s and he would hitchhike around the country. He’s Jewish and said he had a giant Jew fro at the time. In one of his most memorable hitchhiking experiences, he was with a friend who was in the process of becoming a Born Again Christian. He and the friend got picked up and the friend kept reading passages from the Bible. The driver said, “Hey, guy, I bet you my Bible is better than your Bible,” and he had them open his glove compartment. Inside was a book of blank pages. John and his friend were puzzled until they realized each page was filled with LSD strips. So John and his friend went tripping while the driver continued to drive and afterward, he asked the Christian guy, “So who has the better Bible?” John’s friend answered, “You do.”




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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    Evolution has NO realcientific proof/truths behind it, as it was created in order to fit a worldvirew that denies there is a God.


It has mountains of solid evidence, and from a dozen different scientific disciplines. It's - literally - everywhere, including in your own body.

But you're a perfect example of what I say about faith denying you real truth.


    Quote:
    Where and how did first life originate gere on earth?


No one knows - yet. But don't worry, we've got our best people working on it.


    Quote:
    Has there EVER been observed/shown a change from obne species/kind into another one?


YES! We have many, many transitional fossils. Tiktaalik (a fish with legs), Archaeopteryx (a feathered, flying reptile). Literally hundreds of them.


    Quote:
    And how and what would cause the Dna to add extra data in order to make that change, as there is NO known way to have that done in the wild?


Good grief! You don't have to add extra data.

DNA splits in half to replicate itself. The four nucleotides that make up the 'rungs' of the spiral ladder you always see dna represented as then need to be rebuilt in exactly the same order.

Occasionaly, an error occurs. That's a mutation. A genetic change.


    Quote:
    And do you see mankind as just another animal,no different than apes and other primates, or are we different and unique in some fashion?


We are unique in the sense that we have higher cognitive processes.

But we are just mammals. And there's plenty of very real evidence of that too.


Jesusfan...are you lactating at the moment? Are you producing breast milk? Have you ever done so? Ever likely to?

Then why do you have nipples?



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Ancient One


Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 4,989



    Quote:
    Yes, as jesus point was not to judge others without first showing the same standard upon yourself first!


How do you know that?

Please give me chapter and verse.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


How so> As there were indeed BOTH extreme right and left wingers there trying to kill each other off!


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:
    Evolution has NO realcientific proof/truths behind it, as it was created in order to fit a worldvirew that denies there is a God.


Yes it does. It is one of the most well supported theories in all of science. It has nothing to do with God or proving or disproving there is one.

It simply is.


    Quote:
    Where and how did first life originate gere on earth?


This is not evolution but abiogenesis. Evolution depends on life already existing. Nobody totally knows how life came about. There are multiple hypothesis out there. Some with more proof than others.


    Quote:
    Has there EVER been observed/shown a change from obne species/kind into another one?


Yes. It is just going to depend if you would believe it when I told you about it.

Defining species is a tricky thing and we see that sort of stuff all of the time. Or fairly commonly. In terms of the Bible, kind is not well defined. Different creationists or ID proponents all define it differently.

There are loads of transitional forms in the fossil record itself and there are instances of evolution observed in modern times as well. So much so that even creationists anymore will acknowledge what they term microevolution. But by accepting that it really becomes kind of goofy to say it is not occuring. As at the genetic level is the force behind evolution.


    Quote:
    And how and what would cause the Dna to add extra data in order to make that change, as there is NO known way to have that done in the wild?


What do you mean by data? To give a simple example, gaining DNA is easy. Particularly for microbes. Conjugation, transduction or viral infection, transposons. These sorts of things can transfer useful genes and then become trapped.

Evolution generally modifies what is there. Chromosomal duplication events (gene duplication), insertions and various mutatons can change what a gene codes for and greatly change the nature of the organism.

It really does not require extra DNA but changes what is there but mechanisms are available for new DNA to become present. The cool thing is how these systems become regulated together. At least to me. That sort of thing does not happen overnight.


    Quote:
    And do you see mankind as just another animal,no different than apes and other primates, or are we different and unique in some fashion?


Why does it matter? It has no impact on the Theory of Evolution. It should not on ones beliefs either.






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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692


Again, Evolution has NO answer to ultimate Origin of life
NO real transition fossils have ever been found
NO species change has ever been onserved
The Dating Methods used are historical very inaccurate

And Humans are of a quality unlike any other animal on earth...

We are fully self aware....






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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:
    Again, Evolution has NO answer to ultimate Origin of life
    NO real transition fossils have ever been found
    NO species change has ever been onserved
    The Dating Methods used are historical very inaccurate



    Quote:
    And Humans are of a quality unlike any other animal on earth...



    Quote:
    We are fully self aware....


1. Evolution is not about the origin's of life. It is about the change of life. That is all it is. The mechanisms of change and common ancestory. Abiogenesis is a separate field. Life could come from any source and Evolution would still hold.

2. They have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

That is a quick overview but not complete. Keep in mind there are numerous fossils with features that are later seen in other forms.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

I wish I had the time to pull from some better sources but the wiki page gives some of the links. There are many transitional forms present.

3. They have. But what is your definition of changes?

E. coli could be altered to utilize citrate for instance, it normally could not. And in fairly short time. Studies of antibiotic resistance in microbes demonstrate how fast it can be too.

Speciation is a hot topic in biology and definitions can be hard at times.

"For example, there were the two new species of American goatsbeards (or salsifies, genus Tragopogon) that sprung into existence in the past century. In the early 1900s, three species of these wildflowers - the western salsify (T. dubius), the meadow salsify (T. pratensis), and the oyster plant (T. porrifolius) - were introduced to the United States from Europe. As their populations expanded, the species interacted, often producing sterile hybrids. But by the 1950s, scientists realized that there were two new variations of goatsbeard growing. While they looked like hybrids, they weren't sterile. They were perfectly capable of reproducing with their own kind but not with any of the original three species - the classic definition of a new species."

There is much more microbial material because humans live a fairly short period but we have seen it, that was just a quick example.

In fact, if you want to get down to it we have breed new species of animals and plants over human generations using the same general selection tools.

4. They are pretty accurate. There is error to them but you would need to provide some evidence of that. As most ID claims of them being wrong turn out to be fairly incorrect and misleading.

I have seen reports of hammers being dated millions of years old but either the data for this is not shared or is false.


What do you mean quality?

Animals can feel and think to degrees that we did not think possible for quite a while. Humans are unique to animals in some ways but that does not in and of itself prove anything of religious import. As we also have many of the same tendencies that animals do.

Are humans special? In our ability to adapt to numerous environments they are. And in the ability to understand the long term consequences of actions taken. But these have been of mixed value. WE still even carry many responses of our ancestors.




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