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Author
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634


They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,764


Per Wikipedia (haven't had much time to research them otherwise), they're definitely violent (if not deadly), and using violence to stymie opinions you don't agree with is itself one of the defining traits of fascism.

Still, I can't quite get behind calling them terrorists. From what I've read about the Berkeley protests and Charlottesville, Antifa seems less concerned with pushing an agenda, and more concerned with opposing far-right supremacism, which itself is steeped in deadly intolerance. There's nothing wrong with fighting that kind of intolerance with intolerance.



Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.101 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:
    They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?



I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?


Antifa is definitely controversial, but perhaps you want to read up on them in this interview with someone who has written a book on antifa:

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/25/16189064/antifa-charlottesville-activism-mark-bray-interview



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,525


No need to single-out Fascism. It's part of any violent extremist group.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 54.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:
    No need to single-out Fascism. It's part of any violent extremist group.


It does seem to be the case.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:

      Quote:
      They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?



    Quote:

    I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.



    Quote:
    By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.



    Quote:
    They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?



    Quote:
    Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?



    Quote:
    Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.



    Quote:
    It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.


I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

Essentially:

They are a Hate group.
Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

      Quote:

        Quote:

        I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.



    Quote:
    I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.



    Quote:
    Essentially:



    Quote:
    They are a Hate group.
    Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.



    Quote:
    Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.


I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

        Quote:

          Quote:

          I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Essentially:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            They are a Hate group.
            Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.



    Quote:
    I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.



    Quote:
    It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.



    Quote:
    Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.



    Quote:
    Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.



    Quote:
    One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.


Criminal behavior without a doubt.
Hate...well....

https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

          Quote:

            Quote:

            I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Essentially:

            Quote:

              Quote:
              They are a Hate group.
              Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.



    Quote:
    Criminal behavior without a doubt.
    Hate...well....



    Quote:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904



    Quote:
    Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.



    Quote:
    There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.



    Quote:
    Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?


Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.

I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.

I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.

Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.

I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.

Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.

At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.

We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.

All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.

Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.

And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,764



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:
              They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

            Quote:

              Quote:

              I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Essentially:

              Quote:

                Quote:
                They are a Hate group.
                Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Criminal behavior without a doubt.
        Hate...well....

        Quote:

          Quote:
          https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?



    Quote:
    Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.



    Quote:
    I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.



    Quote:
    I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.


Eh. Personally I think "White Pride" sounds blatantly racist. White is a race, not a culture.


    Quote:
    Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.



    Quote:
    I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.



    Quote:
    Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.



    Quote:
    At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.



    Quote:
    We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.



    Quote:
    All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.



    Quote:
    Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.



    Quote:
    And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.






Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:

                Quote:
                They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

              Quote:

                Quote:

                I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Essentially:

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  They are a Hate group.
                  Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Criminal behavior without a doubt.
          Hate...well....

          Quote:

            Quote:
            https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.



    Quote:
    Eh. Personally I think "White Pride" sounds blatantly racist. White is a race, not a culture.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.


                  And what is purple pride? Or black? or pink? or green? or red or yellow or...etc...Is that also racist.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



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              They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

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              I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

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                By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

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                  They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

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                    Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

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                      Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

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                        It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

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            I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

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              Essentially:

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                They are a Hate group.
                Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

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                  Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

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          I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

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            It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

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              Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

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                Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

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                  One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

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        Criminal behavior without a doubt.
        Hate...well....

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          https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

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            Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

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              There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

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                Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?



    Quote:
    Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.



    Quote:
    I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.



    Quote:
    I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.



    Quote:
    Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.



    Quote:
    I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.



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    Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.



    Quote:
    At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.



    Quote:
    We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.



    Quote:
    All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.



    Quote:
    Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.



    Quote:
    And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.


I suppose I just ascribe more to Martin Luther Kings peaceful way of approaching a problem and using discourse and was very much against violence. He brought change and made many think and didn't promote violence.

Agree, many groups do need to be demonized...antifa imo seems to be a cure that is just not much better than the illness.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,764



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                  They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

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                  I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

                  Quote:

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                    By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

                    Quote:

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                      They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

                      Quote:

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                        Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

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                          Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

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                            It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

              Quote:

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                I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

                Quote:

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                  Essentially:

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                    They are a Hate group.
                    Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

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                      Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

            Quote:

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              I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

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                It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

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                  Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

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                    Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

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                      One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

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            Criminal behavior without a doubt.
            Hate...well....

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              https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

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                Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

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                  There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

                  Quote:

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                    Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?

        Quote:

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          Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.

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        Eh. Personally I think "White Pride" sounds blatantly racist. White is a race, not a culture.

        Quote:

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            Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.

              Quote:

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                Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.

                Quote:

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                  At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.

                    Quote:

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                      All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.

                      Quote:

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                        Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.



                    Quote:
                    And what is purple pride? Or black? or pink? or green? or red or yellow or...etc...Is that also racist.


                  No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.





Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634




    Quote:
    No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.


You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,764



    Quote:


      Quote:
      No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.



    Quote:
    You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
    To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.


White Pride sounds racist because it's race-based. It's about pride in one's race, whereas Black Pride is about black culture in the US. Also, as far as I know the etymology of White Pride is based on the idea of white supremacy, particularly over blacks.


    Quote:
    We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?


Of course. Don't really see what this has to do with what I said though.


    Quote:
    So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?


Why are we segregating ourselves? Personally, I'm as against black separatism as I am against any form of supremacy, and in today's world I'd protest ideas of black supremacy till I'm blue in the face. Like all other cultures, I believe ours should be distinct, but also celebrated by all. Unfortunately not everyone feels this way; for instance, St. Patrick's Day (distinctly Irish) is celebrated by all, while large swaths of the population refuse to recognize distinctly black holidays like MLK's Birthday. While it's unfortunate, I imagine that the bitterness over this reality has a lot to do with why some blacks want to keep black culture separate.

To answer your question, Black Pride as a culture began as a direct response to predominant white supremacy, to sentiments of black inferiority, and to separate but equal doctrine. In short, we did not segregate ourselves.


    Quote:
    IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.


There's your answer right there. People are promoting their culture precisely because their culture has been held back; it has nothing to do with thinking our way is better or right. Some of us realize this. I'm straight as straight can get, but I applaud Gay Pride in part because of all the contempt it's forced to endure.





Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 7
Mikel Midnight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,319



    Quote:
    To answer your question, Black Pride as a culture began as a direct response to predominant white supremacy, to sentiments of black inferiority, and to separate but equal doctrine. In short, we did not segregate ourselves.



    Quote:
    There's your answer right there. People are promoting their culture precisely because their culture has been held back; it has nothing to do with thinking our way is better or right. Some of us realize this. I'm straight as straight can get, but I applaud Gay Pride in part because of all the contempt it's forced to endure.


I second both of these statements, emphatically.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 544



    Quote:


      Quote:
      No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.



    Quote:
    You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
    To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.



    Quote:
    We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?



    Quote:
    So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?



    Quote:
    IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.


You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:

      Quote:
      To answer your question, Black Pride as a culture began as a direct response to predominant white supremacy, to sentiments of black inferiority, and to separate but equal doctrine. In short, we did not segregate ourselves.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        There's your answer right there. People are promoting their culture precisely because their culture has been held back; it has nothing to do with thinking our way is better or right. Some of us realize this. I'm straight as straight can get, but I applaud Gay Pride in part because of all the contempt it's forced to endure.



    Quote:
    I second both of these statements, emphatically.


That may be what the terms mean. But just the words taken exactly as they are meant.

Black pride
White Pride

The difference is ONLY White and Black. If it has become something else in daily use then ok. But just taken as they are...should be seen as essentially the same thing. Pride for White or Black.

I find it somewhat telling that there seems to be an issue when someone asks me what I am and I say an American/US Citizen. But others are Fill in the blank-American.

WTHeck is wrong with just being an American? That people put "Fill-in-the-blank"-American is segregationist.

Be it a color or a state or a religion...I don't think it should matter if we want to be a unified country accepting of the differences is others.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



    Quote:

      Quote:


        Quote:
        No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
        To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

          Quote:

            Quote:
            So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.



    Quote:
    You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.



    Quote:
    So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.


You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 544



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:


          Quote:
          No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
          To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

              Quote:

                Quote:
                IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.



    Quote:
    You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P



    Quote:
    I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.



    Quote:
    I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.



    Quote:
    I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.


Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



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        Quote:

          Quote:


            Quote:
            No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
            To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

              Quote:

                Quote:
                So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

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          You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

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            So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

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        You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

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          I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

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            I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

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              I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.



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    Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?


Yes. I hope it does.

Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.

Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



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    That may be what the terms mean. But just the words taken exactly as they are meant.



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    Black pride
    White Pride



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    The difference is ONLY White and Black. If it has become something else in daily use then ok. But just taken as they are...should be seen as essentially the same thing. Pride for White or Black.


No, these words should not be "seen as essentially the same thing" precisely because words ALWAYS have to be taken in context. Actually, words have no meaning divorced from context. Take the words "gay" and "queer" which mean something very different from what they meant in a different context, say the first half of the 20th century. "Black Pride" is about signifying the importance of a black culture that has experienced a long history of oppression. "White Pride" is about promoting white supremacy over other races. In contrast, "Black Pride" does not say black people are better than white people, just that black people are not the stereotypes whites have long cast them as.


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    I find it somewhat telling that there seems to be an issue when someone asks me what I am and I say an American/US Citizen. But others are Fill in the blank-American.



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    WTHeck is wrong with just being an American? That people put "Fill-in-the-blank"-American is segregationist.


Nothing is wrong with just being an American, but identifying as a certain demographic of the U.S.A. is not in any way segregationist. I know many Italian-Americans who take pride in their Italian culture. That pride isn't saying they are better than other Americans nor is it saying they no longer want to be Americans nor is it saying they don't want to associate with other Americans. All it's saying is that they take pride in their Italian heritage. So in what sense is it segregationist?


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    Be it a color or a state or a religion...I don't think it should matter if we want to be a unified country accepting of the differences is others.


It shouldn't and it doesn't matter, at least to most people, but it seems to matter to you. There is nothing mutually exclusive between accepting differences and acknowledging or even celebrating differences.




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 544



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              No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

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              You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
              To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

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                We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

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                  So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

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                    IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

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            You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

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              So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

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          You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

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            I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

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              I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

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                I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.

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        Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?



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    Yes. I hope it does.


Yes, you hope it does what...?


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    Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.



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    Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?


But isn't the issue that certain groups feel like they aren't being included? Shouldn't these groups fight to feel more included?

The problem I have is it seems like instead of trying to fix problems, you'd rather throw away the measuring stick so that we no longer see that these problems exist. If we all just view ourselves as American, then there is no longer a problem with African-Americans being overrepresented in our prisons and underrepresented in our media.

On the other hand, that means that you can't complain when they cast a black actor in a traditionally white role. After all, you just see them as Americans, right? If you complain, that means you believe in segregating black actors to black roles.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



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                They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

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                I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

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                  By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

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                    They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

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                      Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

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                        Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

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                          It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

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              I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

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                Essentially:

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                  They are a Hate group.
                  Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

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                    Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

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            I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

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              It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

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                Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

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                  Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

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                    One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

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          Criminal behavior without a doubt.
          Hate...well....

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            https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

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              Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

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                There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

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                  Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?

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        Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.

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          I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.

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            I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.

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              Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.

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                I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.

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                  Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.

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                    At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.

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                      We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.

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                        All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.

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                          Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.

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                            And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.



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    I suppose I just ascribe more to Martin Luther Kings peaceful way of approaching a problem and using discourse and was very much against violence. He brought change and made many think and didn't promote violence.


I do not support violence either, but I just disagreed with the labels. As, at the moment at least, it is not entirely clear what they are.

That said, violence can be the answer on some occasions. It is hard to tell what they are until retrospect but it does not seem to be useful at the moment. Keep in mind that MLK was not well regarded in the South or those supporting what he marched against either.

It is not like those individuals were well received either and even then the people arguing against them just wanted a dialogue. To me, the criticism from the speech angle just runs hollow in many respects.


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    Agree, many groups do need to be demonized...antifa imo seems to be a cure that is just not much better than the illness.


I do not disagree with that. I will say that I do not really oppose the ideology I hear though, just their methods. Being anti-fascist, anti-racist and so on should not be controversial at this point.

And while I acknowledge the rights of groups to go out and have their say, it rings a little hollow when some think that they add anything to discourse. I have seen many of the same people call to take different sorts of speech away from others.

I see few, usually conservatives in this instance, argue that the common person has lost their ability for political speech to corporations or business. Or that apparently some things have more of a right than others do. I have major issues with that. Or the idea that because everybody is allowed a view apart from the government that it suddenly makes various views equally valid.

That is totally false. It has led us to a place where now a growing number of people will not even acknowledge the same facts of reality. Not even in difficult topics where it is not clear but in areas where things are clear.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,091



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        To answer your question, Black Pride as a culture began as a direct response to predominant white supremacy, to sentiments of black inferiority, and to separate but equal doctrine. In short, we did not segregate ourselves.

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          There's your answer right there. People are promoting their culture precisely because their culture has been held back; it has nothing to do with thinking our way is better or right. Some of us realize this. I'm straight as straight can get, but I applaud Gay Pride in part because of all the contempt it's forced to endure.

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        I second both of these statements, emphatically.



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    That may be what the terms mean. But just the words taken exactly as they are meant.



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    Black pride
    White Pride


That is taking them totally out of historical context though. As the experiences of the different groups are not that comparable.


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    The difference is ONLY White and Black. If it has become something else in daily use then ok. But just taken as they are...should be seen as essentially the same thing. Pride for White or Black.


Only if one ignores history and assume that the past has no barring on current attitudes or judgements. And that the use itself is not important or who is saying it.

As few white's have much issue with somebody of Irish or German decent celebrating their heritage. Many more have issue with African American's doing it.


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    I find it somewhat telling that there seems to be an issue when someone asks me what I am and I say an American/US Citizen. But others are Fill in the blank-American.


I think this still ignores a fair bit of history though. Why do those groups feel the particular need? What was the oppressive group in the matter?

It does not mean that all white people are evil but it is impossible to argue that White people of European descent did good and bad things in the past. Particularly to their fellow man. In particular, trying to destroy their heritage. Native American's are the easy example, AAs are also easy. At various points they even did it to other Europeans like the Irish.

And some white's do point out their heritage. I think it is wrong to assume that there is something wrong with celebrating diversity. Is it true we are American's? Sure, but at the same time we are not the borg either. Not everybody needs to feel and act the same way. Given their experience and history of experience of their parents and the like it is not possible for everybody to think American means the same thing.

It does not. At best it can be an ideal. But celebration of differences is a good thing. Or at least can be. At the moment the drive seems to be about as bad as some claim SJW are. Removing diversity and ignoring history.

Ironically, from many of those that are all about preserving confederate history at all costs in the forms of statues.


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    WTHeck is wrong with just being an American? That people put "Fill-in-the-blank"-American is segregationist.


No it is not. I would like to hear the grounds you make the claim on though. As that assumption pretty much means one has to ignore history and everything else.

Everybody is not starting on square 0 here. Not all whites have it good either, but if one compares races than it is clearly out in front.


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    Be it a color or a state or a religion...I don't think it should matter if we want to be a unified country accepting of the differences is others.


Religion is a choice. It is protected in the Constitution but is probably the hardest thing to define in any realistic way. Race is just a property. There is not something anybody can do about it. Not the same.

A christian could become an atheist or numerous other things. A black guy is a black guy.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



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                No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

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                You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
                To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

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                  We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

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                    So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

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                      IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

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              You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

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                So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

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            You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

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              I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

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                I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

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                  I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.

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          Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?

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        Yes. I hope it does.



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    Yes, you hope it does what...?


Help unite even if its just showing different view.


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      Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.

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        Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?



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    But isn't the issue that certain groups feel like they aren't being included? Shouldn't these groups fight to feel more included?


And they should be included.

But lets be clear I am ok with people celebrating their differences...we all don't want to be 100% the same.

But we should also celebrate our similarities...our shared cultures.


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    The problem I have is it seems like instead of trying to fix problems, you'd rather throw away the measuring stick so that we no longer see that these problems exist. If we all just view ourselves as American, then there is no longer a problem with African-Americans being overrepresented in our prisons and underrepresented in our media.


No. Perhaps I would like them to be viewed not as African Americans, but as Americans. And that they should be treated and share in the same rights as every other American. The term African-American is a bad label imo. It essentially segregates them from the rest of plain ol Americans, by stating they are different.

I am not saying ignore issues of unfairness...I am saying treat everyone equally under the law.


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    On the other hand, that means that you can't complain when they cast a black actor in a traditionally white role. After all, you just see them as Americans, right? If you complain, that means you believe in segregating black actors to black roles.


Have I done so? While I prefer movies of books to portray the characters as they were, or at least close to their concept when have I said for example I hate that Black Tower actor.

You seem to think that Americans should actually be labeled or a measuring stick should be put in place so we are all called...

"Fill-in-your-skin-color"-Americans

I hope one day it will just be Americans.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



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    Black pride
    White Pride



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    That is taking them totally out of historical context though. As the experiences of the different groups are not that comparable.


Not at all.

1)I stated if there was some common usage of it fine that makes sense. And if so it is right to treat it as such.

2)It was stated that even if it wasn't history/context the words themselves just sound racist (the White ones). And that's what I thought was a bad sig.


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      The difference is ONLY White and Black. If it has become something else in daily use then ok. But just taken as they are...should be seen as essentially the same thing. Pride for White or Black.



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    Only if one ignores history and assume that the past has no barring on current attitudes or judgements. And that the use itself is not important or who is saying it.


Which was what was being addressed there.


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    As few white's have much issue with somebody of Irish or German decent celebrating their heritage. Many more have issue with African American's doing it.


Based on your feelings perhaps.


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      I find it somewhat telling that there seems to be an issue when someone asks me what I am and I say an American/US Citizen. But others are Fill in the blank-American.



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    I think this still ignores a fair bit of history though. Why do those groups feel the particular need? What was the oppressive group in the matter?


Throughout history every group has been oppressed by one or another. Its sad and terrible. And is good to make sure people know these things...its also good not to blame others for things they did not do or imply its their fault. It's good to share and do our best to see we don't do these again and stop what is still being done. This is done through understanding though not accusations.


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    It does not mean that all white people are evil but it is impossible to argue that White people of European descent did good and bad things in the past. Particularly to their fellow man. In particular, trying to destroy their heritage. Native American's are the easy example, AAs are also easy. At various points they even did it to other Europeans like the Irish.


So has every other race and nationality. The number one mass murder on the face of the Earth was asian. Do we vilify asians for this or say things like..."well this doesn't mean that all asian people are evil but..."?

Africa has a history of this as well...including do it to their own people..."well this doesn't mean that all black people are evil but..."?

This does not relieve whitey of their part in this. But its a fact humans do these terrible things to humans, and we all need to stop.


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    And some white's do point out their heritage. I think it is wrong to assume that there is something wrong with celebrating diversity. Is it true we are American's? Sure, but at the same time we are not the borg either. Not everybody needs to feel and act the same way. Given their experience and history of experience of their parents and the like it is not possible for everybody to think American means the same thing.


I never said we should not celebrate diversity. I think diversity is wonderful. And sure some white men do. But you don't see the "Nationality" part of Nationality-American accentuated very often. And it makes me wonder about this. The first word is stressed rather than descriptive.

Who is claiming that SJW's are removing diversity? That's ridiculous...it would completely invalidate all their virtue signaling.


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    It does not. At best it can be an ideal. But celebration of differences is a good thing. Or at least can be. At the moment the drive seems to be about as bad as some claim SJW are. Removing diversity and ignoring history.



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    Ironically, from many of those that are all about preserving confederate history at all costs in the forms of statues.



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      WTHeck is wrong with just being an American? That people put "Fill-in-the-blank"-American is segregationist.



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    No it is not. I would like to hear the grounds you make the claim on though. As that assumption pretty much means one has to ignore history and everything else.


Ignore what part of history? And if you just mention oppression that's not enough either...oppression where? Here? Where someone comes from? Many seem to like to only address the parts of history that support their argument.


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    Everybody is not starting on square 0 here. Not all whites have it good either, but if one compares races than it is clearly out in front.



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      Be it a color or a state or a religion...I don't think it should matter if we want to be a unified country accepting of the differences is others.



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    Religion is a choice. It is protected in the Constitution but is probably the hardest thing to define in any realistic way. Race is just a property. There is not something anybody can do about it. Not the same.


So is the choice on how you identify yourself. American 1st? Or something else first? I will give you an example...it annoys me just as much as almost every Texan I have ever met is...I am Texan 1st and American second. That...disturbs me. Just as if someone says I am an Irish person first and a American second. It implies...quite a bit.


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    A christian could become an atheist or numerous other things. A black guy is a black guy.


In todays ever shifting world even that's not true anymore...ask the transgenders.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 544



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                  No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

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                  You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
                  To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

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                    We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

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                      So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

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                        IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

              Quote:

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                You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

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                  So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

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              You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

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                I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

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                  I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

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                    I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.

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            Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?

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          Yes. I hope it does.

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        Yes, you hope it does what...?



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    Help unite even if its just showing different view.



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        Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.

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          Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?

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        But isn't the issue that certain groups feel like they aren't being included? Shouldn't these groups fight to feel more included?



    Quote:
    And they should be included.



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    But lets be clear I am ok with people celebrating their differences...we all don't want to be 100% the same.



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    But we should also celebrate our similarities...our shared cultures.


Don't we do that on Independence Day?


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      Quote:
      The problem I have is it seems like instead of trying to fix problems, you'd rather throw away the measuring stick so that we no longer see that these problems exist. If we all just view ourselves as American, then there is no longer a problem with African-Americans being overrepresented in our prisons and underrepresented in our media.



    Quote:
    No. Perhaps I would like them to be viewed not as African Americans, but as Americans. And that they should be treated and share in the same rights as every other American. The term African-American is a bad label imo. It essentially segregates them from the rest of plain ol Americans, by stating they are different.


Do you feel that you view them as Americans? I feel like you're implying that the problem lies with them and not with you. Like by labeling themselves African American, they open themselves up to being treated differently. Why should this label change the way you feel about them?


    Quote:
    I am not saying ignore issues of unfairness...I am saying treat everyone equally under the law.


What does "equally under the law" mean to you? I don't want to speculate here, but could you give examples?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      On the other hand, that means that you can't complain when they cast a black actor in a traditionally white role. After all, you just see them as Americans, right? If you complain, that means you believe in segregating black actors to black roles.



    Quote:
    Have I done so? While I prefer movies of books to portray the characters as they were, or at least close to their concept when have I said for example I hate that Black Tower actor.


I don't know, dude. I just assume everybody on these boards likes to complain about this type of casting.


    Quote:
    You seem to think that Americans should actually be labeled or a measuring stick should be put in place so we are all called...



    Quote:
    "Fill-in-your-skin-color"-Americans



    Quote:
    I hope one day it will just be Americans.


I'm not big on labels, but I don't have a problem with people calling themselves whatever-American. It doesn't make me think any differently of them.

Is the goal that people will just start thinking of themselves as American? Sure. Are we anywhere near that? Not by a long shot. I also think it's something that has to happen naturally. You can't look down on someone for using these labels because that is just going to make them embrace these labels more.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 634



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                    No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
                    To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Yes. I hope it does.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Yes, you hope it does what...?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Help unite even if its just showing different view.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              But isn't the issue that certain groups feel like they aren't being included? Shouldn't these groups fight to feel more included?

          Quote:

            Quote:
            And they should be included.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              But lets be clear I am ok with people celebrating their differences...we all don't want to be 100% the same.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                But we should also celebrate our similarities...our shared cultures.



    Quote:
    Don't we do that on Independence Day?


Not quite sure that's the same thing. Also...say it is. Is one day enough?


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        The problem I have is it seems like instead of trying to fix problems, you'd rather throw away the measuring stick so that we no longer see that these problems exist. If we all just view ourselves as American, then there is no longer a problem with African-Americans being overrepresented in our prisons and underrepresented in our media.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        No. Perhaps I would like them to be viewed not as African Americans, but as Americans. And that they should be treated and share in the same rights as every other American. The term African-American is a bad label imo. It essentially segregates them from the rest of plain ol Americans, by stating they are different.



    Quote:
    Do you feel that you view them as Americans? I feel like you're implying that the problem lies with them and not with you. Like by labeling themselves African American, they open themselves up to being treated differently. Why should this label change the way you feel about them?


Because it changes the way they feel about me, and therefore it cannot help but change how I will feel by the way I am treated by them. I am not part of their group,not one of them, told I cant understand them, and much more.

Labels always have an impact...that's why people label themselves or even why people label others. Is it really wrong that I question that there might be a better way?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I am not saying ignore issues of unfairness...I am saying treat everyone equally under the law.



    Quote:
    What does "equally under the law" mean to you? I don't want to speculate here, but could you give examples?


Not sure how to give examples that don't seem facetious. Lets just say if you get caught selling pot to underage kids and the punishment is a year in jail. Well then pink white yellow red green purple black orange...you go to jail for 1 year. Now maybe the law is a bad law and should be changed but that's a different issue. You should also get equal defense support against the crimes you have been accused of...though we all know more money can afford better lawyers, not sure how to get around that other than redistribution of wealth on a blank countrywide level which would be terrible.

Not sure I answered your question though?


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        On the other hand, that means that you can't complain when they cast a black actor in a traditionally white role. After all, you just see them as Americans, right? If you complain, that means you believe in segregating black actors to black roles.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Have I done so? While I prefer movies of books to portray the characters as they were, or at least close to their concept when have I said for example I hate that Black Tower actor.



    Quote:
    I don't know, dude. I just assume everybody on these boards likes to complain about this type of casting.


Ah heck Idris Alba is a great actor. Would have been neat to see him as James Bond.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      You seem to think that Americans should actually be labeled or a measuring stick should be put in place so we are all called...

      Quote:

        Quote:
        "Fill-in-your-skin-color"-Americans

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I hope one day it will just be Americans.



    Quote:
    I'm not big on labels, but I don't have a problem with people calling themselves whatever-American. It doesn't make me think any differently of them.


Guess my experience with it is...they like to correct me when I for some reason say "Ohh.,..you American...me too!"...and they correct me quite seriously. I am like...uhm...ok fine we arnt the same.


    Quote:
    Is the goal that people will just start thinking of themselves as American? Sure. Are we anywhere near that? Not by a long shot. I also think it's something that has to happen naturally. You can't look down on someone for using these labels because that is just going to make them embrace these labels more.


Yes we have a loooong way to go. I don't look down on them...My encounters have simply led me to believe they don't WANT to be a part of my America...if that makes any sense?


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 544



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                      Quote:
                      No, I don't think Black Pride is racist, because in this context black pride is more about black culture and black heritage in America. The reason "White Pride" doesn't work in the context of culture is because whites who migrated to this country did so voluntarily, thus they retained the cultures distinct to their place of origin. Irish, German, French, Spanish and Italian; these cultures are all celebrated in the US with nary an issue from anyone. Blacks don't have this privilege. Our ancestors came here involuntarily, and in the process their African cultures were taken from them. And since we're obviously not of European ancestry, this left us with no choice but to form our own culture through a shared history that stretches no further than to slavery in the US.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      You stated that just the words White Pride sounded racist.
                      To me that clearly sounds of a racist view, since you based it on nothing other than the 2 words.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        We have an African American month. Is Black history celebrated or not during this time?

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          So you formed your own culture? Why are you now segregating yourself? Why can it not be part of the melting pot of American culture? I tend to believe it is myself...why the desire to segregate it though?

                          Quote:

                            Quote:
                            IMO this is one of the problems in the USA. We all live in the same country and all "should" have the same rights. But everyone seems to be promoting THEIR racial-sexual-etc culture over others. And no I am not giving "Whitey" a pass here..."Whitey" has this problem on an epic level.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    You're right that it is a problem, but the problem really lies with you and people like you. You see people celebrating what makes them unique in this country and rather than trying to find what makes you unique and celebrating that, you only see them celebrating their race and think that you should also be celebrating your race. The majority of the population in this country is white, which makes it not unique.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      So I challenge you to go out and find what make you unique and celebrate that. Are you Irish, French, Italian? Whatever you are, that's what make you unique and you should be proud of that.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  You seem to forget that EVRYONE is unique...ohhh....uhm yeah. \:P

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    I hope you realize "white-people" come from all over the world. And that they are not all the SAME...they are unique from each other.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      I have no problems celebrating the 5 different nationalities I come from. But I don't call myself... Generic Non unique White-American...I am just an American...of "fill-in-the-blank" decent if someone wants to know where my ancestors came from.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        I challenge others to do the same. Otherwise you ARE segregating yourself.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Do you think your criticism helps to unite us or keep us segregated?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Yes. I hope it does.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Yes, you hope it does what...?

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Help unite even if its just showing different view.

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Breaking misconceptions is important. I am not criticizing you as a person. I simply think such views can only keep us separate and divided as a nation.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  Is there something inherently wrong with wanting a country united as opposed to divided? I am not saying don't celebrate what makes us different and unique. I am saying we are ALL unique and why can we not also celebrate being inclusive of each other?

              Quote:

                Quote:
                But isn't the issue that certain groups feel like they aren't being included? Shouldn't these groups fight to feel more included?

            Quote:

              Quote:
              And they should be included.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                But lets be clear I am ok with people celebrating their differences...we all don't want to be 100% the same.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  But we should also celebrate our similarities...our shared cultures.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Don't we do that on Independence Day?



    Quote:
    Not quite sure that's the same thing. Also...say it is. Is one day enough?


I would say so. Any more and we'd run the risk of a Triumph of the Will situation.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          The problem I have is it seems like instead of trying to fix problems, you'd rather throw away the measuring stick so that we no longer see that these problems exist. If we all just view ourselves as American, then there is no longer a problem with African-Americans being overrepresented in our prisons and underrepresented in our media.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          No. Perhaps I would like them to be viewed not as African Americans, but as Americans. And that they should be treated and share in the same rights as every other American. The term African-American is a bad label imo. It essentially segregates them from the rest of plain ol Americans, by stating they are different.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Do you feel that you view them as Americans? I feel like you're implying that the problem lies with them and not with you. Like by labeling themselves African American, they open themselves up to being treated differently. Why should this label change the way you feel about them?



    Quote:
    Because it changes the way they feel about me, and therefore it cannot help but change how I will feel by the way I am treated by them. I am not part of their group,not one of them, told I cant understand them, and much more.


Does the way they treat you have to change the way you feel about them? I feel like you're describing it like it's an endless cycle and you feel like you have no control over it. I think you can control how you feel about them and how you treat them. I also think you should look for other ways to connect with people you feel disconnected with. That could be through music, movies, television, comics or whatever.


    Quote:
    Labels always have an impact...that's why people label themselves or even why people label others. Is it really wrong that I question that there might be a better way?


I think your view of labels is negative. Labels are a good shorthand, but they also don't tell you everything about a person. People are complicated.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I am not saying ignore issues of unfairness...I am saying treat everyone equally under the law.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        What does "equally under the law" mean to you? I don't want to speculate here, but could you give examples?



    Quote:
    Not sure how to give examples that don't seem facetious. Lets just say if you get caught selling pot to underage kids and the punishment is a year in jail. Well then pink white yellow red green purple black orange...you go to jail for 1 year. Now maybe the law is a bad law and should be changed but that's a different issue. You should also get equal defense support against the crimes you have been accused of...though we all know more money can afford better lawyers, not sure how to get around that other than redistribution of wealth on a blank countrywide level which would be terrible.



    Quote:
    Not sure I answered your question though?


I think taking away a judge's discretion has it's own issues. Does this mean you don't believe in plea bargains? If a first time offender is remorseful, shouldn't they get a lesser sentence than a repeat offender that shows no remorse? Every case is different, so why should every sentence be the same?

Of course, that's not to say that judges use their sentencing discretion wisely. Sometimes judges are too lenient on the defendant that it seems to ignore the victim's rights. There are also judges that are too harsh. Both ways have their issues, but I think it's better to teach judges better ways of using their discretion than treating every offender the same.


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          On the other hand, that means that you can't complain when they cast a black actor in a traditionally white role. After all, you just see them as Americans, right? If you complain, that means you believe in segregating black actors to black roles.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Have I done so? While I prefer movies of books to portray the characters as they were, or at least close to their concept when have I said for example I hate that Black Tower actor.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I don't know, dude. I just assume everybody on these boards likes to complain about this type of casting.



    Quote:
    Ah heck Idris Alba is a great actor. Would have been neat to see him as James Bond.


Right? Like I've never seen a Bond film, but if Idris Elba was Bond, I'd totally want to see that movie.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You seem to think that Americans should actually be labeled or a measuring stick should be put in place so we are all called...

        Quote:

          Quote:
          "Fill-in-your-skin-color"-Americans

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I hope one day it will just be Americans.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I'm not big on labels, but I don't have a problem with people calling themselves whatever-American. It doesn't make me think any differently of them.



    Quote:
    Guess my experience with it is...they like to correct me when I for some reason say "Ohh.,..you American...me too!"...and they correct me quite seriously. I am like...uhm...ok fine we arnt the same.


A hyphenated American is still an American. You're letting it bother you too much.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Is the goal that people will just start thinking of themselves as American? Sure. Are we anywhere near that? Not by a long shot. I also think it's something that has to happen naturally. You can't look down on someone for using these labels because that is just going to make them embrace these labels more.



    Quote:
    Yes we have a loooong way to go. I don't look down on them...My encounters have simply led me to believe they don't WANT to be a part of my America...if that makes any sense?


"My America?" What does that even mean? See, that's part of my problem. You think your view of what America is the right one and you feel that others should change and embrace your view. I think that's convenient for you. You don't have to make any concessions and you get to be who you've always been while others have to change who they are in order for you to accept them.

Maybe by embracing them for who they are now, you can have the America that you want sooner rather than later.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
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