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atrimus![]() Location: Saint Louis, MO Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 2,185 |
Subject: NFL and kneeling Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 11:43:49 am EDT (Viewed 692 times) |
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Just wondering about everyone's position here. While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country. That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.
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Superman's Pal![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,788 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 12:42:04 pm EDT (Viewed 572 times) |
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Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.I was thinking about the flag code before it started coming up this week. After 9/11 especially it became popular to wear shirts patterned after the flag, something specifically prohibited by the flag code as "disrespectful." most people didn't care that much because those wearing the shirts simply did it because they loved the flag. Standing at attention is called for in the flag code during a flag ceremony, so I'd say kneeling would be considered disrespectful in a sense, even though kneeling by definition is showing respect. Their protest is done with humility in honor of their fellow Americans that they feel are being treated unfairly. Right or wrong, their goal is noble so I can't get too worked up about it. That said, playing the anthem during sporting events has nothing to do with the flag code. The flag code refers to a flag ceremony where you raise the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Playing the anthem at sports events is merely a tradition which began in baseball. Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Doesn't he have bigger fish to fry? It's such a petty use of his time.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Mixed feelings... [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 01:26:36 pm EDT (Viewed 519 times) |
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Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades. No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc... That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at? As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.
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The Black Guardian![]() Moderator Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 26,169 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 01:30:09 pm EDT (Viewed 636 times) |
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Kneeling is respecting the flag and perhaps more than standing. Pointing out the flaws in the system is inherently better, and frankly, kneeling is more reverent. The flag is a rag. No one died for it. They died for kneeling, and other forms of protest against the government. And above all, the orange guy in the white house needs to be silent. He just made it an issue to obfuscate things and spread hate. City of Heroes is BACK!
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The Black Guardian![]() Moderator Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 26,169 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 01:34:20 pm EDT (Viewed 483 times) |
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What they do and how much they're paid is really irrelevant, because neither protects them from the same mistreatment that is protested. City of Heroes is BACK!
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Trent Trueheart![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 853 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 01:39:07 pm EDT (Viewed 535 times) |
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Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.I'm not a fan of forced patriotism, so kneeling doesn't offend me. I'd argue that Trump has made statements that are more disrespectful to the people who have fought and died for the country, such as "I like people who weren't captured." I'd also argue that "ungrateful millionaire crybaby" was the platform that Trump ran on. I also think that the only reason Trump cares is because he's still bitter about losing money from when the USFL tried to take on the NFL 30 years ago.
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Rutro![]() |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 01:47:56 pm EDT (Viewed 545 times) |
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An unneeded battle it would seem for Trump but sometimes I wonder if it's on purpose. It's almost like he's trying to always keep his base wound up. At least he only suggested what the NFL should do, unlike the previous administration which actually used the power of the govt to go after the Wash Redskins trademark and ended up getting rebuked by an unanimous decision from the Supreme Court. I bet the guy at Google, who got fired for espousing his views on company time - same thing NFL players are doing, is wondering where all the 'free speech' defenders were then. Of course he has as much right to express his private views on company time as the NFL players do - zero.
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Superman's Pal![]() Moderator Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 3,788 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 02:37:20 pm EDT (Viewed 511 times) |
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Quote: I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Not a requirement, just a tradition: http://mentalfloss.com/article/22150/why-do-we-sing-national-anthem-sporting-events
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: I guess my issue with the debate... [Re: atrimus] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 03:36:23 pm EDT (Viewed 480 times) |
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Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.is when did patriotism become defined only the people fighting for the country overseas? Those serving do a great task, but this is also a way for those in power to call those that disagree unpatriotic for not supporting a given conflict. Bush Jr.'s administration was big on this. And the two are conflated often. I am not saying that they are not giving to their country at all, but we seemingly gladly overlook all those performing services to the country, or are outright hostile towards them. Like teachers or local authorities. I do not just mean in PR, but many that will happily use them as political shields or punching bags will gladly cut their funding but we never cast it as patriotic or not. Only the one issue seems to and that disturbs me a great deal. It is like the only thing some can see are military service, the other stuff does not matter. And many of those are hypocritical as well. We do a better job now than before of helping our returning vets but many are lost in the cracks of a cruddy mental health system that devolves into a government vs private sector debate that is not really helping the issue much, just the same old junk. We use veterans and various public servants as shields or goats as needed and it is sickening to me. And few seem to care about that. In particular from an administration that takes joy in firing or destroying agencies that do their job to protect and aid the US. Those people are doing a patriotic service but in the mind of Trump and modern conservatives they are the problem. My general thoughts are this: 1. Trump needs to worry about real problems. Not this culture war crap. It is a distraction to take the heat away from investigations and other things he is bungling. 2. Trump, as a member of the government, has no business telling people how they can or cannot express themselves. 3. The president has no business telling private companies how they behave outside of regulatory function. How a company deals with personnel and this sort of issue is their choice. 4. Trump has a bad history of this sort of thing and is no judge of morality or ethics. 5. It is ironic that many that are up the wall about this are supposedly big on free speech. You almost always see "I support free speech but...". Which is ironic, as they are the first to lecture and call folks snowflakes. 6. It is ironic that many seem to think this is THE issue of the day. While being super USA and patriotic they also want various monuments to stand to those that sought to destroy the thing they want to celebrate and punish people over. 7. Employers have the right to fire people over things like this, does not mean they are under an obligation to do so. Or that the president can do anything other than blow smoke to fire up culture war issues. This whole thing is nonsense and not worthy of much in my view. Do people have a right to be offended by this? Sure, but I think they need to reflect on what patriotism is to them. During all of this, nobody really asks why this is happening in the first place. Or what the concerns are and how they should be addressed. We only worry are people are offended or not. Which is ironic, given that liberals and others are general called snowflakes and similar if they ever express anything against the status quo. Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 03:41:25 pm EDT (Viewed 532 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: The Black Guardian] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 03:42:51 pm EDT (Viewed 550 times) |
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Quote: Kneeling is respecting the flag and perhaps more than standing. Pointing out the flaws in the system is inherently better, and frankly, kneeling is more reverent.Quote: The flag is a rag. No one died for it. They died for kneeling, and other forms of protest against the government.Quote: And above all, the orange guy in the white house needs to be silent. He just made it an issue to obfuscate things and spread hate.I think we lose track of that. They died for what the US stands for or should stand for. I do think that many look at the flag as representative of that. The symbol of it. That is fine, but many people are also major hypocrites in regard to what is or is not patriotic in the first place. It is largely used as propaganda tool. Look Raist bunnies...
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zvelf![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 11,657 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: Rutro] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 04:00:18 pm EDT (Viewed 503 times) |
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Quote: An unneeded battle it would seem for Trump but sometimes I wonder if it's on purpose. It's almost like he's trying to always keep his base wound up.That's precisely what Trump is doing. He doesn't have quantity of voters on his side, so he keeps upping the intensity of his voters to make up for it. Quote: At least he only suggested what the NFL should do, unlike the previous administration which actually used the power of the govt to go after the Wash Redskins trademark and ended up getting rebuked by an unanimous decision from the Supreme Court.This is just wrong and misleading. The Obama administration did not use "the power of the government to go after the Washington Redskins." A group of Native Americans did. The Obama administration wouldn't even have cause as they would have to prove harm. When asked his opinion, Obama simply stated that were he the owner of the team, he would consider changing the name because it offends many Native Americans. Next, the Supreme Court never heard a case on the Washington Redskins. They heard a related trademark case whose ruling would affect the Redskins case. So since the Supreme Court, a) never heard the Redskins case in the first place, and b) the Obama administration wasn't involved in the such a case, the Supreme Court couldn't rebuke them for it. Quote: I bet the guy at Google, who got fired for espousing his views on company time - same thing NFL players are doing, is wondering where all the 'free speech' defenders were then. Of course he has as much right to express his private views on company time as the NFL players do - zero.First, people express private views on company time all the time. Any water cooler talk about a tv show or a sports game are examples. Second, the Google guy, James Damore, did have some "free speech" defenders on his side. Third, your analogy is not apt. The NFL players started the protesting in response to a wave of police shooting of unarmed black men. The Google guy recommended bias against women in Google's hiring practices. In terms of appearances and of being offensive, protesting against racism and advocating against hiring women are two very different things for a company's public face. Fourth, Google has a policy in which staff have communal input on the promotions of other staff, and so anyone who admits to a gender bias puts that bias into Google's promotions. Can you imagine what it would be like to be a woman who is getting evaluations by James Damore? Hence, Google rightfully fired him.
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atrimus![]() Location: Saint Louis, MO Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 2,185 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: The Black Guardian] Posted Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 05:05:18 pm EDT (Viewed 569 times) |
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Quote: Kneeling is respecting the flag and perhaps more than standing. Pointing out the flaws in the system is inherently better, and frankly, kneeling is more reverent.The system has flaws, and I agree that protesting those flaws peacefully is the better course. But NFL teams aren't kneeling out of respect (thought I don't think it's their intent to disrespect either). Quote: The flag is a rag. No one died for it. They died for kneeling, and other forms of protest against the government.I'm not really saying that kneeling is wrong, but there is some gray here that bears discussing. Yeah, people died for our right to kneel, but I think it's our duty to remember that they did die for that right. At least be mindful of honoring that sacrifice, which is in part what the flag is for. Quote: And above all, the orange guy in the white house needs to be silent. He just made it an issue to obfuscate things and spread hate.Basically. Though I'd also argue that it's all a distraction. While everyone's busy boycotting teams for kneeling, no one's talking about Trump's failure to pass healthcare reform, or the growing Russian investigation.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: The Black Guardian] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 09:46:15 am EDT (Viewed 534 times) |
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Quote: What they do and how much they're paid is really irrelevant, because neither protects them from the same mistreatment that is protested.Money protects you from quite a lot. More than most.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: Superman's Pal] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 09:49:03 am EDT (Viewed 488 times) |
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Quote: Quote: I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Not a requirement, just a tradition: Quote: http://mentalfloss.com/article/22150/why-do-we-sing-national-anthem-sporting-eventsWell we buck tradition all the time....maybe we should stop playing it for games...just an idea.,
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: bd2999] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 09:55:54 am EDT (Viewed 486 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.Quote: I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from. Quote: They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything. Quote: Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Quote: Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment. Quote: Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.Quote: I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves. Quote: IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. Quote: The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 12:06:46 pm EDT (Viewed 511 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Kneeling is respecting the flag and perhaps more than standing. Pointing out the flaws in the system is inherently better, and frankly, kneeling is more reverent.Quote: The system has flaws, and I agree that protesting those flaws peacefully is the better course. But NFL teams aren't kneeling out of respect (thought I don't think it's their intent to disrespect either).Quote: Quote: The flag is a rag. No one died for it. They died for kneeling, and other forms of protest against the government.Quote: I'm not really saying that kneeling is wrong, but there is some gray here that bears discussing. Yeah, people died for our right to kneel, but I think it's our duty to remember that they did die for that right. At least be mindful of honoring that sacrifice, which is in part what the flag is for.One could also argue how many given wars were necessary or just perceived to be by political forces. There is loads of grey everywhere, but one can make pretty good cases for many wars that loads of people died for not much reason. That is a jaded view and I am all for honoring vets, but it causes questions and opens up the box so to speak about things. IMO, honoring by standing up for the national anthem is not the defining feature of honoring vets. If that is all somebody does in the first place, is it really that big of a deal? The same people, or some of them, have ignored numerous vet issues over the years. Sadly, most in society do. They usually back it when things are brought to light but most people are hypocrites about this sort of thing. It is just an easy punching bag. Quote: Quote: And above all, the orange guy in the white house needs to be silent. He just made it an issue to obfuscate things and spread hate.Quote: Basically. Though I'd also argue that it's all a distraction. While everyone's busy boycotting teams for kneeling, no one's talking about Trump's failure to pass healthcare reform, or the growing Russian investigation.It actually was brought up about the same time as some Russia information. Most of his base and GOP members do not care about much of it (there was no collusion and since they did not learn anything when they did ![]() It is a distraction, but at the same time Trump does this sort of thing all of the time to rally his supporters. The whole culture war nonsense that he likes to bring up over and over again. His goal, and he is doing it, is to divide the US and condemn everybody not seeing the world as he does. The guy is a clown and taking the country down with him. Remember, the guy saying this has passed the blame onto the military when needed, after a military failure early in his presidency he blammed the generals. Then in the election he made fun of POWs. The guy does not have a leg to stand on for patriotic acts. Vets are nothing more than pawns to him. Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 12:24:06 pm EDT (Viewed 530 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.Quote: Quote: I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. Quote: I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from. Such as? But you are willing to accept the hypocrisy for the side condemning them? Trump for instance does not have legs to stand on with anything regarding the troops. Quote: Quote: They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. Quote: I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything.Yes you are, you are bringing up money and other things that have no barring on the matter. Quote: Quote: Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Quote: Quote: Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Quote: Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment.This is a fair bit of accusation. We know that this happens, but we do not know to the level you are implying here. What are they getting out of this? They are getting hammered by people and so on. Originally it was just a few guys. They were gripped at but largely ignored. Trump made a comment and they all did it out of unity. I just fail to see the crux of your argument at all. As everything you are saying can be turned easily on those criticizing them. I mean the people gripping at them are not saying much most of the time about that sort of thing anyway, they watch them play. Help pay their salaries and so on. Again, you are mixing various issues together. I am not sure why you do not see that. That they may have had advantageous treatment is not an issue with this. Unless you want to turn it on everything else too. In which case most people and individuals are hypocrites. Flat out. Quote: Quote: Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.Quote: Quote: I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? Quote: I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves.Yet you give a pass to the holier than thou viewer who jumps at a chance like this to boycot but not over rape, assault, dog fighting and so on? Isn't that hypocritical of those throwing criticism and starting the whole thing? Trump in particular is the biggest of all and leading this holier than all charge. Some players have, maybe not enough. However, you are focusing soley on the blame in these issues on one side. The whole thing would not be happening at all if our president just stayed the crap out of things that do not concern him. A few players were doing it, most of them did it as unity against what he said. Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs. Quote: Quote: IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. Quote: Quote: The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. Quote: All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.You have the uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to. He deserves to be attacked all of the time because he is always and doing something worthy of it. He and his administration are constantly lying and hurting people. That you seem to want to gloss over most of it for only the big stuff is just enabling and saying that the other stuff is not a big deal. As I have told you many times in other threads, a few down. Those that voted for Trump are the only ones responsible here. They made their choice knowing full well what sort of monster he was and believing his lies. Sad part is, more American's did not vote for him. Look Raist bunnies...
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Unstable Molecule![]() Location: Calgary, AB Canada Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 2,946 |
Subject: Don't be distracted [Re: atrimus] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 02:42:09 pm EDT (Viewed 508 times) |
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It was a peaceful protest that was turned into a huge deal because the President said some tone-deaf things about it on Twitter. Given the reason for the protest and Trump's newfound reputation for being sympathetic to the white supremacist movement, it exploded. Why did it become a big deal? Only because of those tweets. Here we are, still talking about it. Meanwhile, Kushner, Priebus and Bannon were all caught using PRIVATE E-MAIL SERVERS >gasp!< to send potentially classified information. That barely saw any coverage, because this football controversy seems juicier. Whenever the President does anything transparently bone-headed that gets huge coverage, ask yourself what else is happening in the world and if the timing is suspicious.> And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Chris1962![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 382 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 03:51:36 pm EDT (Viewed 453 times) |
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NFL - the Patriots will win their sixth Super Bowl. Kneeling - what the other twenty-nine teams should do when in the presence of the Patriots. Okay. I covered it.
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Comicguy1![]() Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017 Posts: 1,466 |
Subject: Re: I Think That It's Getting Just A Tad Overblown. [Re: atrimus] Posted Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 09:19:21 pm EDT (Viewed 451 times) |
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While Trump indeed shouldn't have said that (Actually, he shouldn't say ANYTHING at this point. EvER!), CNN and some other news stations seem to be paying waaaaaaayyy too much heed to it. I don't think that it's a huge deal, it is a personal choice, and at the end of the day it doesn't really change anything. But yes, that is definitely NOT something that a president should say. Which again proves that Trump just doesn't give a-.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: bd2999] Posted Thu Sep 28, 2017 at 11:18:00 am EDT (Viewed 508 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.Quote: Quote: I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. Quote: Quote: I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from. Quote: Such as? But you are willing to accept the hypocrisy for the side condemning them? Trump for instance does not have legs to stand on with anything regarding the troops. Straw man argument. Where did I say I accepted such hypocrisy? Straw man argument 2. Where did I say anything remotely like he hada leg to stand on? Quote: Quote: Quote: They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. Quote: Quote: I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything.Quote: Yes you are, you are bringing up money and other things that have no barring on the matter. Money/power plays a part in everything sadly. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Quote: Quote: Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Quote: Quote: Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment.Quote: This is a fair bit of accusation. We know that this happens, but we do not know to the level you are implying here. It's rampant and has been going on for decades. The news reports on just such things from time to time. Quote: What are they getting out of this? They are getting hammered by people and so on. Originally it was just a few guys. They were gripped at but largely ignored. Trump made a comment and they all did it out of unity. So you think they are getting nothing out of it? Truly? For every person ripping on them is another like you defending them. Quote: I just fail to see the crux of your argument at all. As everything you are saying can be turned easily on those criticizing them. I mean the people gripping at them are not saying much most of the time about that sort of thing anyway, they watch them play. Help pay their salaries and so on. And they have a lot of people backing them. Heck its pretty safe to badmouth the president...get some great press and people talking about you and look like a hero to those who hate Trump. There is a lot to be gained...and yes they will lose from his supporters. I don't see what's so hard to understand though, my argument is simply they are motivated by self interest not some altruistic motives. Quote: Again, you are mixing various issues together. I am not sure why you do not see that. That they may have had advantageous treatment is not an issue with this. Unless you want to turn it on everything else too. In which case most people and individuals are hypocrites. Flat out. Sometimes issues are intertwined...news flash. The world is not black and white. ![]() They have had massive advantageous treatment...this is extremely prevalent starting at least at college if not well before. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.Quote: Quote: I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? Quote: Quote: I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves.Quote: Yet you give a pass to the holier than thou viewer who jumps at a chance like this to boycot but not over rape, assault, dog fighting and so on? Isn't that hypocritical of those throwing criticism and starting the whole thing? Trump in particular is the biggest of all and leading this holier than all charge. Straw man argument 3. Where is the pass I gave? Please show me where I said..."I give a pass to the holier than thou viewer "insert viewer"? Straw man argument 4. Where did I say it's ok to "rape, assault, dog fighting and so on?" Did you miss the part (which you even alluded to earlier) where I accuse them of getting unfair advantages? Trump is an petulant child. They often have a holier than though attitude...it seems you missed that part too. Quote: Some players have, maybe not enough. However, you are focusing soley on the blame in these issues on one side. The whole thing would not be happening at all if our president just stayed the crap out of things that do not concern him. Thank you for saying what I already said and then acting like you said it first. Quote: A few players were doing it, most of them did it as unity against what he said. Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs. Well technically he didn't say all football players were SOB's which would be an equivalent statement, but why do you keep acting like you are pointing out to me that what Trump said was moronic when I said this in my initial post? This is rather bad form in a discussion adding to the 4 straw man arguments you have made so far. Quote: Quote: Quote: IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. Quote: Quote: The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. Quote: Quote: All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.Quote: You have the uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to. He deserves to be attacked all of the time because he is always and doing something worthy of it. He and his administration are constantly lying and hurting people. You accuse me of not getting your point (uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to)...then restate exactly what I understood yet again..."He deserves to be attacked all of the time". Can you see the problem with this? No one is ALWAYS doing something worthy of being attacked. He is a buffoon and a moron in many ways, but he is not wrong about every single thing. If you believe he is always 100% wrong about every single thing...that is by at least close approximation of the definition of Fanaticism. Quote: That you seem to want to gloss over most of it for only the big stuff is just enabling and saying that the other stuff is not a big deal. I could say you gloss over the things he sometimes does that are actually positive. Whereas I see he does BOTH. Far far far too much negativity and wrong. But I am sure in your reply you will "gloss" over this. Quote: As I have told you many times in other threads, a few down. Those that voted for Trump are the only ones responsible here. They made their choice knowing full well what sort of monster he was and believing his lies. You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times. They are a large PART of the reason of course. The other is the opposing party put a terrible candidate forward, that they have turned deaf ears on the needs of large segments of the people who actually VOTE whereas Trump pandered to them. I also find it funny...how you say people believed his lies but voted for him anyways...huh? what? So which is it? Are they evil deplorables who voted for Trump the monster? or Were they duped? You seem to accuse them of both in the same breath but these 2 don't mix well. Quote: Sad part is, more American's did not vote for him. It's because we are a representative Democracy and not a true Democracy.
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: Don't be distracted [Re: Unstable Molecule] Posted Thu Sep 28, 2017 at 05:01:56 pm EDT (Viewed 461 times) |
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Quote: It was a peaceful protest that was turned into a huge deal because the President said some tone-deaf things about it on Twitter. Given the reason for the protest and Trump's newfound reputation for being sympathetic to the white supremacist movement, it exploded.Quote: Why did it become a big deal? Only because of those tweets. Here we are, still talking about it. Quote: Meanwhile, Kushner, Priebus and Bannon were all caught using PRIVATE E-MAIL SERVERS >gasp!< to send potentially classified information. That barely saw any coverage, because this football controversy seems juicier. >Quote: Whenever the President does anything transparently bone-headed that gets huge coverage, ask yourself what else is happening in the world and if the timing is suspicious.I think this is true but at the same time the issues he is bringing up are considered part of the culture war. And thus are pretty much designed to rile up a portion of the population. Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999![]() Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 17,011 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Fri Sep 29, 2017 at 11:57:27 am EDT (Viewed 541 times) |
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I gave a pretty long reply and deleted it after thinking about it. I made a mistake and did not want to reach the same level of nastiness, but I will make a few points. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.Quote: Quote: I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. Quote: Quote: I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from. Quote: Quote: Such as? But you are willing to accept the hypocrisy for the side condemning them? Trump for instance does not have legs to stand on with anything regarding the troops. Quote: Straw man argument. Where did I say I accepted such hypocrisy?Your overall arguments and responses never discuss them, but attack the players. Even your criticism of Trump is only after you go after the media and say what he should have said. Not that you disagree that he said something or that those agreeing with him are bad too. Given your focus and the clarification to the comments it seems fairly clear that you put more blame on the players. Meaning you find one sides hypocrisy more acceptible. Quote: Straw man argument 2. Where did I say anything remotely like he hada leg to stand on?You did not, but I take a bit of an issue here. This whole strawman thing that you are doing in this post is very confrontational. Particularly in light of you calling on a few questionable strawmen that could be misstatements or needing clarification. You also make a few of your own later. This is more an example of my poor wording and phrasing. You did not say it, but I brought it up intended to make a point. Trump and those with this view are commonly wrapping themselves in the flag. Which is ironic for a guy like Trump, given that he uses veterans and rips them off as needed. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. Quote: Quote: I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything.Quote: Quote: Yes you are, you are bringing up money and other things that have no barring on the matter. Quote: Money/power plays a part in everything sadly.How are they making money out of these protests? When many advertisers or sponsors are nervous and could cut some of their money? For that matter, advantages or no leading to the NFL for being athletes does not diminish the right of expression. Which you seem to bring up as two counter balancing forces in your original argument. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Quote: Quote: Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Quote: Quote: Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment.Quote: Quote: This is a fair bit of accusation. We know that this happens, but we do not know to the level you are implying here. Quote: It's rampant and has been going on for decades. The news reports on just such things from time to time.Cool, what evidence do you have for that? I just do not really understand the premise that because they are rich and have enjoyed advantages in the past (of varying natures) that this is a counter point to the ability to do this sort of thing. I just recall many up in arms now happily defending groups seeking to usurp the idea of the flag and what the US is. But now they turn with venom on those using the right and not really expressing anything bad. It goes to my points in my response to the main thread here. I am not sure at what point we only define patriotism by those serving in the armed forces either. As many of these people would be happy to fire government workers or see them fired. Despite the fact they are doing a patriotic duty too. Not saying you are saying that, but I find that to be more of a hypocritical action in this case than anything the players have done so far. Quote: Quote: What are they getting out of this? They are getting hammered by people and so on. Originally it was just a few guys. They were gripped at but largely ignored. Trump made a comment and they all did it out of unity. Quote: So you think they are getting nothing out of it? Truly?For every person ripping on them is another like you defending them. I asked you that question. You have not really given a great answer yet. I look forward to one though. The last point is a bit amusing. Because both sides are doing something it means that it is all ok then? Aren't Trump voters supposed to be beyond PC culture? Seems they are being awfully easily offended then? Quote: Quote: I just fail to see the crux of your argument at all. As everything you are saying can be turned easily on those criticizing them. I mean the people gripping at them are not saying much most of the time about that sort of thing anyway, they watch them play. Help pay their salaries and so on. Quote: And they have a lot of people backing them. Heck its pretty safe to badmouth the president...get some great press and people talking about you and look like a hero to those who hate Trump. There is a lot to be gained...and yes they will lose from his supporters. So...I don't know how to tell you this but big NFL players already are very popular and have quite a bit of press on their own. Most NFL players are not known too much other than fans and will not last long in the league. So, everybody kneeling at once is not going to bring much attention on any one player. Just so we are clear there. Be it popular or not. I would argue it is potentially more detrimental. As I figure more die hard sports fans have conservative leanings. Not all, but I would imagine it edges that way. Seems true from most sports radio I have heard. But I have not listened for a while. Maybe I am wrong now. They also lose from people that do not want politics in their escapism. Does not matter if they are backing Trump or not. Just seems like more negatives than not. As people are not really discussing why they are doing it either. Or why they did this action. Just how offended they are by it. Quote: I don't see what's so hard to understand though, my argument is simply they are motivated by self interest not some altruistic motives.And you have not been very clear on what self-interest is at play here. What you have elaborated so far does not make much logical sense. Unless maybe they are going to run for liberal office. Many owners, mostly conservative, either kneeled with them or were supportive. You are not commenting on them, or the ones that did. And many of them had more advantages than the players. From wealth since birth in many cases. Nor for that matter why it has barring on free speech. Quote: Quote: Again, you are mixing various issues together. I am not sure why you do not see that. That they may have had advantageous treatment is not an issue with this. Unless you want to turn it on everything else too. In which case most people and individuals are hypocrites. Flat out. Quote: Sometimes issues are intertwined...news flash. The world is not black and white. ![]() They can be, these two are not at all. At least not the two you are forcing in. It is sports culture vs free speech. That makes zero since to me. Sports culture is bad and has been bad. Not just with what you are talking about either. How about player treatment in some programs and so on. Even in that it is more complicated. One could argue in college particular many players are exploited. Still no bearing on their right to have an opinion that is free from government criticism. As you said, people can tare into them. I get the disrespecting the flag. I do not get your point. As, if they are being hypocrites for things, those attacking them are being fairly big ones as well. I am really just trying to get you to see that. And you are fighting very hard. And being fairly nasty. Quote: They have had massive advantageous treatment...this is extremely prevalent starting at least at college if not well before.So, this is only a problem for the players? You are fine with owners backing the protest. They had more advantages than any of the players we see growing up, or at least many owners are from money. I just really fail to see how this matters for this argument. Or is a valid analysis of the issues with sports culture. As the focus is more on what they got that I didn't. Are you mad at the kid that got a scholarship for being poor? Or the kid that had amazing grades. Granted, those do not happen as much as they should. However, in big time football the players are potentially bringing the university all sorts of money. Money that most players will see nothing of. You can argue they are getting a free ride but most of these guys will not go the NFL, but did contribute to the college teams success, but the university made more on their efforts than the scholarship was worth. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.Quote: Quote: I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? Quote: Quote: I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves.Quote: Quote: Yet you give a pass to the holier than thou viewer who jumps at a chance like this to boycot but not over rape, assault, dog fighting and so on? Isn't that hypocritical of those throwing criticism and starting the whole thing? Trump in particular is the biggest of all and leading this holier than all charge. Quote: Straw man argument 3. Where is the pass I gave? Please show me where I said..."I give a pass to the holier than thou viewer "insert viewer"?Quote: Straw man argument 4. Where did I say it's ok to "rape, assault, dog fighting and so on?" Did you miss the part (which you even alluded to earlier) where I accuse them of getting unfair advantages?You split these two up, my sentence, for some reason. It needs to be read in full. The whole thing I say is that you are giving them a pass and then that they (the ones mad about the flag) really did not backlash to the other issues as much as they are this. Thus they are hypocrites. So, strawman 4 was not even directed at you, much like strawman 1. However with strawman 3. You do not have to really make the statement. Your whole point is fairly critical of the players outside of being supportive of free speech but skeptical because they are hypocrites. You then go after the media and a quote of what Trump should have said. You never once bring up those attacking the players. So, I fail to see that the fact you omitted or where not clear reflects on it being a straw man. Even in our back and forths it is clear that you place majority of the blame on the players and will only put anything towards those after them if I prod pretty hard. Or at least that is what it seems. A strawman would mean I am making my own argument against what you are saying. You never commented either way on them but given the tennor and what general side you seem to be more leaning towards it is not unreasonable to make a claim that your point is on the same general side. Taken as a whole your message is at the least very unclear, but seems probably that you were not pointing them out for a reason. Instead of this straw man thing you could just say I understood you wrong and clarify a bit. Quote: Trump is an petulant child. They often have a holier than though attitude...it seems you missed that part too.Still a comment about Trump and not those siding with him over the criticism. Trump is not in this alone. Quote: Quote: Some players have, maybe not enough. However, you are focusing soley on the blame in these issues on one side. The whole thing would not be happening at all if our president just stayed the crap out of things that do not concern him. Quote: Thank you for saying what I already said and then acting like you said it first.You never said Trump should stay out of it. You called him a child. Given the sentence before it is unclear if you agree with the premise but just against how he said it. The other stuff I said there, you did not say. Or at least not clearly. Quote: Quote: A few players were doing it, most of them did it as unity against what he said. Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs. Quote: Well technically he didn't say all football players were SOB's which would be an equivalent statement, but why do you keep acting like you are pointing out to me that what Trump said was moronic when I said this in my initial post? This is rather bad form in a discussion adding to the 4 straw man arguments you have made so far.My quote "Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs." Never said all. He was clearly referencing kneeling players. So, I was not wrong. You never said what he said was terrible. You said he was throwing a temper tantrum. It is not clear in your post if you agree with him and are just against how he said it. Which is fine if you do, but it is not at all clear. I would revisit straw man arguments too. As a few of those are pretty weak. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. Quote: Quote: The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. Quote: Quote: All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.Quote: Quote: You have the uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to. He deserves to be attacked all of the time because he is always and doing something worthy of it. He and his administration are constantly lying and hurting people. Quote: You accuse me of not getting your point (uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to)...then restate exactly what I understood yet again..."He deserves to be attacked all of the time". Can you see the problem with this?This may be my poor ability to phrase things. But I was attempting to clarify my statement to you. You are of the mind that most of it should not be reported on because reasons. Which is normalization. Quote: No one is ALWAYS doing something worthy of being attacked. He is a buffoon and a moron in many ways, but he is not wrong about every single thing.Never said he was always wrong, but he and his administration are always doing or saying something that is pretty bad. Either contradicting each other, refusing to admitt faults and varying degrees of lying. Or just constant bragging about how awesome they are. For years I was led to believe things with the executive have their buck stop with the president. Guess not? Quote: If you believe he is always 100% wrong about every single thing...that is by at least close approximation of the definition of Fanaticism. Never said that. Very close a straw man yourself. I said always doing or saying something worthy of attack. They are different. Quote: Quote: That you seem to want to gloss over most of it for only the big stuff is just enabling and saying that the other stuff is not a big deal. Quote: I could say you gloss over the things he sometimes does that are actually positive. Whereas I see he does BOTH. Far far far too much negativity and wrong. But I am sure in your reply you will "gloss" over this. Please, point them out to me. You yourself are saying he is more negative than positive. If one takes the step and includes administrations actions and how they do it. It is not hard to jump to the conclusion that I stated. Quote: Quote: As I have told you many times in other threads, a few down. Those that voted for Trump are the only ones responsible here. They made their choice knowing full well what sort of monster he was and believing his lies. Quote: You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times. They are a large PART of the reason of course. The other is the opposing party put a terrible candidate forward, that they have turned deaf ears on the needs of large segments of the people who actually VOTE whereas Trump pandered to them.Instead of going into this too much I want to point out the logical inconsistency. "You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times." Ok. "They are a large PART of the reason of course." I am either right or wrong. If you agree with me, even in part, than I am not wrong as you are stating. At least not without you being PARTly wrong too. The PART of the reason aspect is mistaken a bit. As you give a reason people voted for him. Somehow exonerating them from their vote. I am not discussing reasons yet. If they voted for him than they ARE the reason. Period. Reasons may vary. Quote: I also find it funny...how you say people believed his lies but voted for him anyways...huh? what?Check out the studies on Trump voters where they believe he is lying but still like him just fine and think he is trustworthy. Is this all? No, but you act like I am pulling this out of the sky. Quote: So which is it?Quote: Are they evil deplorables who voted for Trump the monster?or Were they duped? This is again near a straw man. I only said above that those that voted for him were responsible. I then made to simple a statement about believing his lies. To this you are making a black and white distinction after claiming the world is not. Anyway, it is a range. Some did it because they do not like illegal immigrants, some did not like Clinton more (for reasons that do not make loads of since in many cases), some were mad about trade, some are racist and saw a kindred spirit (hate groups like Trump), religious conservatives that can only forgive the sins of conservatives and all manor of things. Some were even the average Joe that believed his lies about making things better but having no strategy to do it, other than blaming others. So, it can and is a range. I recommend you looking into the election read outs instead of stating your opinion as facts and blaming liberals for everything. Both sides had poor candidates. Very poor. They were historically unpopular. And the election was unusual in the sense that it varied wildly from scandal to scandal. Trump had more, but Clinton's was something that was never dropped. Even after she was more or less exonerated. Do people have to like her? No. Vote for her? Of course not. But every case against Clinton can be used similarly against Trump. Ironically he even said America does not deserve an administration/president always under investigation. Happening anyway. The last boot was the FBI jumping in last second that did seem to have an impact. Now, would Trump have won anyway? Hard to say, but given the data available it did have an impact. And given the unusual swings of the race it is impossible to ignore. Never once have I seen you much acknowledge the realities of the elections and the dynamics other than to blame Clinton, Dems or liberals. Maybe I missed it, but you are very happy to just say that Trump is everybodies fault. To some extent, sure. I guess. But those that voted for him have more to answer for than anybody else. You tend to claim the reverse. That they were victims of sorts. Quote: You seem to accuse them of both in the same breath but these 2 don't mix well.Yes they do, not sure if you pay much attention to voting circles or blocks. But many do not get along great in principle but will vote together. Quite common really. Religious conservatives and libertarians for instance. Quote: Quote: Sad part is, more American's did not vote for him. Quote: It's because we are a representative Democracy and not a true Democracy.Look Raist bunnies...
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Butthead1![]() |
Subject: My Thoughts [Re: atrimus] Posted Fri Sep 29, 2017 at 06:12:22 pm EDT (Viewed 459 times) |
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I almost think this is more of a fight against Trump then disrespecting the flag. Personally I feel this whole thing is out of control and needs to stop. I think the players need to put an end to this protest of theirs and get back to just playing football. I feel that was totally stupid and showed no class at all the way the SeaHawks, Steelers and Titans did not even come out to the field for the anthem. I think the Titans were the worst for doing that in their own stadium. I sure hope all the players just stop this nonsense now and get back to work and stand up for the dam national anthem and this will blow over and be yesterdays news in a few weeks. This is not the first time the fans have been upset at NFL players and teams. They said similar stuff when the players went on strike and said they were done with the NFL and bla bla bla. Now I will say how stupid and childish and ridiculous these fans are acting by burning all their NFL stuff on you tube videos. Do these stupid people honestly think I give a rats ass or have any respect for them for what they are doing? The answer is NO. These people are just acting like trailer trash in my honest opinion. If these people are so worried about honest hard working American people and families and they wanted to make a difference then they can donate all this stuff to the Goodwill and other charities and this stuff could be sold to people who cannot otherwise afford NFL stuff and charities would get much needed dollars instead of this stuff going up in flames. I have watched easily tens of thousands of dollars ( possibly much more ) worth of merchandise burned that could have been donated and sold to help out families who lost everything from hurricanes. All I have to say to these dum asses who are burning all this valuable stuff is this will all be long forgotten next season and I am sure alot of you will regret acting so stupid. These people are just as stupid and classless as the players and these fans are not needed and these people can go jump in the lake for all I care and they did not impress me at all with their stupid rants. I spent way too much money on my NFL stuff to go burning it and I pretty much forgot about this stuff the next day. I can respect people boycotting NFL stores or games or ratings going down but it always goes back to normal after time. I have no respect at all for these people burning stuff just to get 15 seconds of fame.
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America's Captain ![]() ![]() Maintainer Location: Bayville New Jersey Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 12,139 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Sat Sep 30, 2017 at 02:27:17 pm EDT (Viewed 436 times) |
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I couldn't care less what any celebrity does, football player or otherwise. I used to completely ignore Trump. I wish I still could. I happen to like the national anthem introduction to sports events. I feel it elevates the game. But the whole vibe gets ruined by player grandstanding. I don't care what these meatheads think or feel. I especially don't care to know all that when I'm trying to have a minute or two of serenity and dignity before the game starts. These guys exist to throw, catch, run, block, tackle, and kick. They should stop grandstanding and just stand there quietly with their hands on their hearts until the song is over. But if they don't, the last thing in the world I want to hear is that our president tweeted about it.
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The Black Guardian![]() Moderator Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 26,169 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: atrimus] Posted Sun Oct 01, 2017 at 10:46:29 am EDT (Viewed 522 times) |
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Quote: Quote: Kneeling is respecting the flag and perhaps more than standing. Pointing out the flaws in the system is inherently better, and frankly, kneeling is more reverent.Quote: The system has flaws, and I agree that protesting those flaws peacefully is the better course. But NFL teams aren't kneeling out of respect (thought I don't think it's their intent to disrespect either).It is respect, perhaps the ultimate respect. Quote: Quote: The flag is a rag. No one died for it. They died for kneeling, and other forms of protest against the government.Quote: I'm not really saying that kneeling is wrong, but there is some gray here that bears discussing. Yeah, people died for our right to kneel, but I think it's our duty to remember that they did die for that right. At least be mindful of honoring that sacrifice, which is in part what the flag is for.No question they died, but the flag is nothing but a rag, and the song is just a rather poorly composed tune. Be mindful of the fact those things are pretty meaningless compared to freedom. City of Heroes is BACK!
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The Black Guardian![]() Moderator Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 26,169 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: MysteryMan] Posted Sun Oct 01, 2017 at 10:56:59 am EDT (Viewed 517 times) |
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Not as much as skin colour. City of Heroes is BACK!
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Rehzon![]() Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 9,211 |
Subject: Sports stars rise for the Anthem, while Americans at home sit on their butts waiting for the game to start. [Re: atrimus] Posted Sun Oct 01, 2017 at 12:07:07 pm EDT (Viewed 501 times) |
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If Kaepernick had a problem, he could had some ant-cop violence sticker etc. Not rising for the Flag (believed by some) disrespects Veterans who fought for it, or ant-American. I agree Trump has no business in it.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: Mixed feelings... [Re: bd2999] Posted Mon Oct 02, 2017 at 11:07:20 am EDT (Viewed 555 times) |
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Quote: I gave a pretty long reply and deleted it after thinking about it. I made a mistake and did not want to reach the same level of nastiness, but I will make a few points. Had to re-write mine 3 or 4 times with the issues we keep having on the site myself.But go ahead and be nasty...already feel you did so with 1st reply. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Just wondering about everyone's position here.Quote: Quote: While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.Quote: Quote: That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.Quote: Quote: I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.Quote: Quote: I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right. Quote: Quote: I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from. Quote: Quote: Such as? But you are willing to accept the hypocrisy for the side condemning them? Trump for instance does not have legs to stand on with anything regarding the troops. Quote: Quote: Straw man argument. Where did I say I accepted such hypocrisy?Quote: Your overall arguments and responses never discuss them, but attack the players. Even your criticism of Trump is only after you go after the media and say what he should have said. Not that you disagree that he said something or that those agreeing with him are bad too. Quote: Given your focus and the clarification to the comments it seems fairly clear that you put more blame on the players. Meaning you find one sides hypocrisy more acceptible. Quote: Quote: Straw man argument 2. Where did I say anything remotely like he hada leg to stand on?Quote: You did not, but I take a bit of an issue here. This whole strawman thing that you are doing in this post is very confrontational. Particularly in light of you calling on a few questionable strawmen that could be misstatements or needing clarification. You also make a few of your own later. Quote: This is more an example of my poor wording and phrasing. You did not say it, but I brought it up intended to make a point. Trump and those with this view are commonly wrapping themselves in the flag. Quote: Which is ironic for a guy like Trump, given that he uses veterans and rips them off as needed. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here. Quote: Quote: I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything.Quote: Quote: Yes you are, you are bringing up money and other things that have no barring on the matter. Quote: Quote: Money/power plays a part in everything sadly.Quote: How are they making money out of these protests? When many advertisers or sponsors are nervous and could cut some of their money? Quote: For that matter, advantages or no leading to the NFL for being athletes does not diminish the right of expression. Which you seem to bring up as two counter balancing forces in your original argument. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...Quote: Quote: Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here? Quote: Quote: Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment.Quote: Quote: This is a fair bit of accusation. We know that this happens, but we do not know to the level you are implying here. Quote: Quote: It's rampant and has been going on for decades. The news reports on just such things from time to time.Quote: Cool, what evidence do you have for that? Quote: I just do not really understand the premise that because they are rich and have enjoyed advantages in the past (of varying natures) that this is a counter point to the ability to do this sort of thing. Quote: I just recall many up in arms now happily defending groups seeking to usurp the idea of the flag and what the US is. But now they turn with venom on those using the right and not really expressing anything bad. Quote: It goes to my points in my response to the main thread here. I am not sure at what point we only define patriotism by those serving in the armed forces either. As many of these people would be happy to fire government workers or see them fired. Despite the fact they are doing a patriotic duty too. Quote: Not saying you are saying that, but I find that to be more of a hypocritical action in this case than anything the players have done so far. Quote: Quote: Quote: What are they getting out of this? They are getting hammered by people and so on. Originally it was just a few guys. They were gripped at but largely ignored. Trump made a comment and they all did it out of unity. Quote: Quote: So you think they are getting nothing out of it? Truly?For every person ripping on them is another like you defending them. Quote: I asked you that question. You have not really given a great answer yet. I look forward to one though. Quote: The last point is a bit amusing. Because both sides are doing something it means that it is all ok then? Quote: Aren't Trump voters supposed to be beyond PC culture? Seems they are being awfully easily offended then?Quote: Quote: Quote: I just fail to see the crux of your argument at all. As everything you are saying can be turned easily on those criticizing them. I mean the people gripping at them are not saying much most of the time about that sort of thing anyway, they watch them play. Help pay their salaries and so on. Quote: Quote: And they have a lot of people backing them. Heck its pretty safe to badmouth the president...get some great press and people talking about you and look like a hero to those who hate Trump. There is a lot to be gained...and yes they will lose from his supporters. Quote: So...I don't know how to tell you this but big NFL players already are very popular and have quite a bit of press on their own. Most NFL players are not known too much other than fans and will not last long in the league. Quote: So, everybody kneeling at once is not going to bring much attention on any one player. Just so we are clear there. Be it popular or not. I would argue it is potentially more detrimental. As I figure more die hard sports fans have conservative leanings. Not all, but I would imagine it edges that way. Seems true from most sports radio I have heard. But I have not listened for a while. Maybe I am wrong now.Quote: They also lose from people that do not want politics in their escapism. Does not matter if they are backing Trump or not. Just seems like more negatives than not. As people are not really discussing why they are doing it either. Or why they did this action. Just how offended they are by it. Quote: Quote: I don't see what's so hard to understand though, my argument is simply they are motivated by self interest not some altruistic motives.Quote: And you have not been very clear on what self-interest is at play here. What you have elaborated so far does not make much logical sense. Unless maybe they are going to run for liberal office. Quote: Many owners, mostly conservative, either kneeled with them or were supportive. You are not commenting on them, or the ones that did. And many of them had more advantages than the players. From wealth since birth in many cases. Quote: Nor for that matter why it has barring on free speech. Quote: Quote: Quote: Again, you are mixing various issues together. I am not sure why you do not see that. That they may have had advantageous treatment is not an issue with this. Unless you want to turn it on everything else too. In which case most people and individuals are hypocrites. Flat out. Quote: Quote: Sometimes issues are intertwined...news flash. The world is not black and white. ![]() Quote: They can be, these two are not at all. At least not the two you are forcing in. Quote: It is sports culture vs free speech. That makes zero since to me. Quote: Sports culture is bad and has been bad. Not just with what you are talking about either. How about player treatment in some programs and so on. Even in that it is more complicated. One could argue in college particular many players are exploited. Quote: Still no bearing on their right to have an opinion that is free from government criticism. As you said, people can tare into them. I get the disrespecting the flag. I do not get your point. Quote: As, if they are being hypocrites for things, those attacking them are being fairly big ones as well. I am really just trying to get you to see that. And you are fighting very hard. And being fairly nasty. Quote: Quote: They have had massive advantageous treatment...this is extremely prevalent starting at least at college if not well before.Quote: So, this is only a problem for the players? You are fine with owners backing the protest. They had more advantages than any of the players we see growing up, or at least many owners are from money. Quote: I just really fail to see how this matters for this argument. Or is a valid analysis of the issues with sports culture. As the focus is more on what they got that I didn't. Are you mad at the kid that got a scholarship for being poor? Or the kid that had amazing grades. Granted, those do not happen as much as they should. Quote: However, in big time football the players are potentially bringing the university all sorts of money. Money that most players will see nothing of. You can argue they are getting a free ride but most of these guys will not go the NFL, but did contribute to the college teams success, but the university made more on their efforts than the scholarship was worth. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?Quote: Quote: As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.Quote: Quote: I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then? Quote: Quote: I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves.Quote: Quote: Yet you give a pass to the holier than thou viewer who jumps at a chance like this to boycot but not over rape, assault, dog fighting and so on? Isn't that hypocritical of those throwing criticism and starting the whole thing? Trump in particular is the biggest of all and leading this holier than all charge. Quote: Quote: Straw man argument 3. Where is the pass I gave? Please show me where I said..."I give a pass to the holier than thou viewer "insert viewer"?Quote: Quote: Straw man argument 4. Where did I say it's ok to "rape, assault, dog fighting and so on?" Did you miss the part (which you even alluded to earlier) where I accuse them of getting unfair advantages?Quote: You split these two up, my sentence, for some reason. It needs to be read in full. Quote: The whole thing I say is that you are giving them a pass and then that they (the ones mad about the flag) really did not backlash to the other issues as much as they are this. Thus they are hypocrites. Quote: So, strawman 4 was not even directed at you, much like strawman 1. However with strawman 3. You do not have to really make the statement. Your whole point is fairly critical of the players outside of being supportive of free speech but skeptical because they are hypocrites. You then go after the media and a quote of what Trump should have said. Quote: You never once bring up those attacking the players. So, I fail to see that the fact you omitted or where not clear reflects on it being a straw man. Even in our back and forths it is clear that you place majority of the blame on the players and will only put anything towards those after them if I prod pretty hard. Or at least that is what it seems. Quote: A strawman would mean I am making my own argument against what you are saying. You never commented either way on them but given the tennor and what general side you seem to be more leaning towards it is not unreasonable to make a claim that your point is on the same general side. Taken as a whole your message is at the least very unclear, but seems probably that you were not pointing them out for a reason. Quote: Instead of this straw man thing you could just say I understood you wrong and clarify a bit. Quote: Quote: Trump is an petulant child. They often have a holier than though attitude...it seems you missed that part too.Quote: Still a comment about Trump and not those siding with him over the criticism. Trump is not in this alone. Quote: Quote: Quote: Some players have, maybe not enough. However, you are focusing soley on the blame in these issues on one side. The whole thing would not be happening at all if our president just stayed the crap out of things that do not concern him. Quote: Quote: Thank you for saying what I already said and then acting like you said it first.Quote: You never said Trump should stay out of it. You called him a child. Given the sentence before it is unclear if you agree with the premise but just against how he said it. Quote: The other stuff I said there, you did not say. Or at least not clearly. Quote: Quote: Quote: A few players were doing it, most of them did it as unity against what he said. Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs. Quote: Quote: Well technically he didn't say all football players were SOB's which would be an equivalent statement, but why do you keep acting like you are pointing out to me that what Trump said was moronic when I said this in my initial post? This is rather bad form in a discussion adding to the 4 straw man arguments you have made so far.Quote: My quote Quote: "Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs."Quote: Never said all. He was clearly referencing kneeling players. So, I was not wrong. Quote: You never said what he said was terrible. You said he was throwing a temper tantrum. It is not clear in your post if you agree with him and are just against how he said it. Which is fine if you do, but it is not at all clear. Quote: I would revisit straw man arguments too. As a few of those are pretty weak. Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway. Quote: Quote: The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point. Quote: Quote: All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.Quote: Quote: You have the uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to. He deserves to be attacked all of the time because he is always and doing something worthy of it. He and his administration are constantly lying and hurting people. Quote: Quote: You accuse me of not getting your point (uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to)...then restate exactly what I understood yet again..."He deserves to be attacked all of the time". Can you see the problem with this?Quote: This may be my poor ability to phrase things. But I was attempting to clarify my statement to you. Quote: You are of the mind that most of it should not be reported on because reasons. Which is normalization. Quote: Quote: No one is ALWAYS doing something worthy of being attacked. He is a buffoon and a moron in many ways, but he is not wrong about every single thing.Quote: Never said he was always wrong, but he and his administration are always doing or saying something that is pretty bad. Either contradicting each other, refusing to admitt faults and varying degrees of lying. Or just constant bragging about how awesome they are. Quote: For years I was led to believe things with the executive have their buck stop with the president. Guess not? Quote: Quote: If you believe he is always 100% wrong about every single thing...that is by at least close approximation of the definition of Fanaticism. Quote: Never said that. Very close a straw man yourself. I said always doing or saying something worthy of attack. They are different. Quote: Quote: Quote: That you seem to want to gloss over most of it for only the big stuff is just enabling and saying that the other stuff is not a big deal. Quote: Quote: I could say you gloss over the things he sometimes does that are actually positive. Whereas I see he does BOTH. Far far far too much negativity and wrong. But I am sure in your reply you will "gloss" over this. Quote: Please, point them out to me. You yourself are saying he is more negative than positive. If one takes the step and includes administrations actions and how they do it. It is not hard to jump to the conclusion that I stated. Quote: Quote: Quote: As I have told you many times in other threads, a few down. Those that voted for Trump are the only ones responsible here. They made their choice knowing full well what sort of monster he was and believing his lies. Quote: Quote: You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times. They are a large PART of the reason of course. The other is the opposing party put a terrible candidate forward, that they have turned deaf ears on the needs of large segments of the people who actually VOTE whereas Trump pandered to them.Quote: Instead of going into this too much I want to point out the logical inconsistency. Quote: "You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times."Quote: Ok.Quote: "They are a large PART of the reason of course."Quote: I am either right or wrong. If you agree with me, even in part, than I am not wrong as you are stating. At least not without you being PARTly wrong too.Quote: The PART of the reason aspect is mistaken a bit. As you give a reason people voted for him. Somehow exonerating them from their vote. I am not discussing reasons yet. If they voted for him than they ARE the reason. Period. Quote: Reasons may vary. Quote: Quote: I also find it funny...how you say people believed his lies but voted for him anyways...huh? what?Quote: Check out the studies on Trump voters where they believe he is lying but still like him just fine and think he is trustworthy. Is this all? No, but you act like I am pulling this out of the sky. Quote: Quote: So which is it?Quote: Quote: Are they evil deplorables who voted for Trump the monster?or Were they duped? Quote: This is again near a straw man. I only said above that those that voted for him were responsible. I then made to simple a statement about believing his lies. To this you are making a black and white distinction after claiming the world is not. Quote: Anyway, it is a range. Some did it because they do not like illegal immigrants, some did not like Clinton more (for reasons that do not make loads of since in many cases), some were mad about trade, some are racist and saw a kindred spirit (hate groups like Trump), religious conservatives that can only forgive the sins of conservatives and all manor of things. Some were even the average Joe that believed his lies about making things better but having no strategy to do it, other than blaming others. Quote: So, it can and is a range. I recommend you looking into the election read outs instead of stating your opinion as facts and blaming liberals for everything. Both sides had poor candidates. Very poor. They were historically unpopular. And the election was unusual in the sense that it varied wildly from scandal to scandal. Trump had more, but Clinton's was something that was never dropped. Even after she was more or less exonerated. Quote: Do people have to like her? No. Vote for her? Of course not. But every case against Clinton can be used similarly against Trump. Ironically he even said America does not deserve an administration/president always under investigation. Happening anyway. Quote: The last boot was the FBI jumping in last second that did seem to have an impact. Now, would Trump have won anyway? Hard to say, but given the data available it did have an impact. And given the unusual swings of the race it is impossible to ignore. Quote: Never once have I seen you much acknowledge the realities of the elections and the dynamics other than to blame Clinton, Dems or liberals. Maybe I missed it, but you are very happy to just say that Trump is everybodies fault. To some extent, sure. I guess. But those that voted for him have more to answer for than anybody else. You tend to claim the reverse. That they were victims of sorts. Ok then we finally agree...it's a shared fault on both sides. Now we can get into percentages if you like...but I will state outright I have given up on fixing the Rep Party. They are completely lost to their ideologies. Quote: Quote: You seem to accuse them of both in the same breath but these 2 don't mix well.Quote: Yes they do, not sure if you pay much attention to voting circles or blocks. But many do not get along great in principle but will vote together. Quite common really. Quote: Religious conservatives and libertarians for instance. Quote: Quote: Quote: Sad part is, more American's did not vote for him. Quote: Quote: It's because we are a representative Democracy and not a true Democracy.
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MysteryMan![]() Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017 Posts: 3,338 |
Subject: Re: NFL and kneeling [Re: The Black Guardian] Posted Mon Oct 02, 2017 at 12:13:13 pm EDT (Viewed 475 times) |
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It would be if they stated their purpose was respect...their stated purpose is protest. Well it is a symbol to many. Just like the confederate statues and flags that are coming down because they are symbols that are offending to many. Just saying it kinda goes both ways. They have every right to do this though one could question their motives and they have to face the consequences of others speaking their minds about their actions.
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