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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,085


Not everything is the fault of Republicans, and I think that it's sad that everyone puts the blame for most of our ills on them. I'm a Libertarian (Certainly NOT a Republican.), but honestly, I think that both parties have taken too much of a stranglehold. I think that we need a third option, and that we can (Or rather, we NEED to go beyond the two-party system.) get some more input and new approaches. It's probably never going to happen (I am an optimist in general, but I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon.). I don't know, everytime I turn on either CNN, the mainstream news or the radio, it seems that people are bashing Republicans. And the NRA is getting all the blame for these sadly more pervasive and common mass killings and shootings.
And I'm certainly no fan of Trump (And I WOULD like to see him impeached.), but I am certainly sensing a bias in the media towards him. CNN, ABC, NBC, DEFINITELY MSNBC, etc. There is a place for that (Talk Radio.), but wasn't there a time when the news just stuck to accurate reporting or just reporting the facts WITHOUT any kind of judgement or obvious bias? You know: Facts! Or are those just days of yore?


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195


just wondering. And are they doing nothing to warrant the criticism? I think not, it is often one stupid move after another. And it is being lead by somebody whose goal is pretty much to make everything as partisan as possible.


    Quote:
    Not everything is the fault of Republicans, and I think that it's sad that everyone puts the blame for most of our ills on them. I'm a Libertarian (Certainly NOT a Republican.), but honestly, I think that both parties have taken too much of a stranglehold. I think that we need a third option, and that we can (Or rather, we NEED to go beyond the two-party system.) get some more input and new approaches. It's probably never going to happen (I am an optimist in general, but I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon.). I don't know, everytime I turn on either CNN, the mainstream news or the radio, it seems that people are bashing Republicans. And the NRA is getting all the blame for these sadly more pervasive and common mass killings and shootings.
    And I'm certainly no fan of Trump (And I WOULD like to see him impeached.), but I am certainly sensing a bias in the media towards him. CNN, ABC, NBC, DEFINITELY MSNBC, etc. There is a place for that (Talk Radio.), but wasn't there a time when the news just stuck to accurate reporting or just reporting the facts WITHOUT any kind of judgement or obvious bias? You know: Facts! Or are those just days of yore?


I would argue that the news agencies are doing their job for the most part. Trump is probably the most lying president and administration ever. All presidents and politicians lie but not to this level. What we are seeing is pretty much a corrupt government run a muck for the most part and whatever negative terms you want to put on it. The destruction of various lairs of government by incompetence.

The whole modern movement that Trump came from can be blamed largely on a conservative echo chamber that is resistant to everything but itself. The only sin not forgivable is being something other than conservative.

Most of the news does report facts. The issue is, if one is a fan of Trump (not saying you) than they buy into the war with the media. Trump is by far the scariest president for the media. In addition to nearly everybody given his narcissim. I am just not sure of the idea that he is being picked on for nothing when he seems to do something directly or indirectly that is pretty rough each and every day.


Now, through the history of the US nothing is totally one sides fault or another. However, the GOP gave us Trump. More specifically the people that voted for him. The environment we have now is resistant to facts. Trump and his crew are proud of that. We have an EPA that does not trust scientist, an education department hostile to educators, a HHS department that is resistant to anything but the dollar and so on and so forth.

This is not really an example of the media or folks needlessly going after Trump. The guy deserves it. If just correcting his lies. Now he still believes those lies and uses them in policy choices. So, the damage will be pretty bad going forward.

Also, the NRA deserves a ton of blame for the current gun climate. Their view of firearm rights has more to do with them supporting the more radical views and pushing judicial activism than anything else. At this point it is possible to do nothing. some conservatives are even at the point where they will tell you straight up, people dying is just the price of freedom.

How is that not them needing blame? They are one of the most paranoid and out their groups in US politics considering what their starting point was. If anything, they are more devoted to survivalist loons than anything. At least from their rhetoric.






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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,344



    Quote:
    Not everything is the fault of Republicans and I think that it's sad that everyone puts the blame for most of our ills on them.


No one says EVERYTHING is the fault of Republicans. Certainly the media is going to town on all of the sexual harassers at the moment, only some of whom are Republicans.


    Quote:
    I'm a Libertarian


See, some blame should be put on libertarians too like airlines nickel and diming people these days, especially with baggage fees. That's due to deregulation.


    Quote:
    honestly, I think that both parties have taken too much of a stranglehold. I think that we need a third option, and that we can (Or rather, we NEED to go beyond the two-party system.) get some more input and new approaches.


People have been saying this for as long as there's been a two party system.


    Quote:
    I don't know, everytime I turn on either CNN, the mainstream news or the radio, it seems that people are bashing Republicans.


So what are they being bashed for that they shouldn't get bashed for?


    Quote:
    And the NRA is getting all the blame for these sadly more pervasive and common mass killings and shootings.


The NRA is not getting ALL the blame, but they certainly deserve some of the blame. They've deregulated guns to the point that Congress isn't even allowed to do gun studies. They've also put the fear into gun owners that they need to buy buy buy as many guns as they possibly can because the government might confiscate them (which is a lie). And so now the U.S.A. has more guns per capita than any other first world nation by far and we also have by far the most mass shootings. Those two things are inextricably linked statistically.


    Quote:
    And I'm certainly no fan of Trump (And I WOULD like to see him impeached.), but I am certainly sensing a bias in the media towards him. CNN, ABC, NBC, DEFINITELY MSNBC, etc.


Don't you realize that the media is reporting Trump poorly for precisely the same reasons you think Trump should be impeached? And therefore the reporting isn't biased, just accurate?





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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,840


We are stuck in a quagmire of our own making combined with an indifference from tens of millions of citizens who will not bother to vote much less take the time to become familiar with what is going on outside their immediate circumstances. It seems even when the country stands in crisis over many issues indeed the fabric is under attack both from within and without too many don't care or believe what the demagogues say no matter how blatantly false and/or hateful the message. We have made a huge error in having what amounts to a monopoly of power in the hands of two parties. We are grouped and divided in such a way that forces adherence to the party on all issues whether our political and practical views support such a layered ability to see the world. Basically neutering any free thinking with a ability to see those opinions see any practical fashion for many who do care about the way our country moves forward. This may be the most extreme example of divide and conquer the United States has seen since the 20th century.


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,874



    Quote:
    Not everything is the fault of Republicans, and I think that it's sad that everyone puts the blame for most of our ills on them.


Maybe not. But their social policies and positions don't exactly advocate social harmony, unless you fit their definition of normal.


    Quote:
    I'm a Libertarian (Certainly NOT a Republican.), but honestly, I think that both parties have taken too much of a stranglehold. I think that we need a third option, and that we can (Or rather, we NEED to go beyond the two-party system.) get some more input and new approaches. It's probably never going to happen (I am an optimist in general, but I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon.).


There are plenty of non-status-quo options out there, and no one's stopping anyone from choosing them.


    Quote:
    I don't know, everytime I turn on either CNN, the mainstream news or the radio, it seems that people are bashing Republicans. And the NRA is getting all the blame for these sadly more pervasive and common mass killings and shootings.


The only other boogeyman is mental health, and our current Administration made it easier for people suffering from mental health issues to get guns. But then criticizing Trump's administration leads to ...


    Quote:
    And I'm certainly no fan of Trump (And I WOULD like to see him impeached.), but I am certainly sensing a bias in the media towards him. CNN, ABC, NBC, DEFINITELY MSNBC, etc. There is a place for that (Talk Radio.), but wasn't there a time when the news just stuck to accurate reporting or just reporting the facts WITHOUT any kind of judgement or obvious bias? You know: Facts! Or are those just days of yore?


Maybe the media does hate Trump, but can you blame them? He pretty much declared war on them from the start.

Bias or not, what I don't see is "Fake news." Just about every negative reported on Trump is a product of his own making. That said, I do think the media puts him in the spotlight a bit too much.





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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113


It's right to blame Republicans for everything involving government, because they control all three branches of government.

The only thing left is for Republicans to attack themselves. And they should. They should be ashamed that they let a corrupt gameshow host and failed businessman take control of their party using a failed ideology from the 1940s.


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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,839


I agree some news sources are heavily biased. Some will focus on a minor thing and blow it out of proportion while ignoring more important stories. I try to avoid those. ON the flip side, the conservative news sites I sometimes visit are just as biased. They ignore or downplay as much as possible some of the things Republicans and Trump has done.

And truth be told Trump gives the news sites plenty of ammunition and reason to focus om him. He comes across as incredibly thin-skinned and lacking any sort tact. The Republicans add to it by either being slow to condemn him at times or failing to get anything done despite controlling both Houses of Congress and the Executive branch.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525


They did not offer a very good option. They had one in Bernie, but their own manipulations in the DNC and the media cost them.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    They did not offer a very good option. They had one in Bernie, but their own manipulations in the DNC and the media cost them.


People who chose Trump over anyone else on the planet cannot pass the buck by blaming Democrats and their mistakes. Republicans bought Trump, willingly, knowing what he was. Knowing he was a liar and con-man, and worse.

It wasn't a binary choice. It wasn't one option over the other. The choice was a proactive and enthusiastic one. The religious community failed most of all by siding with Trump. And now they have lost legitimacy in the eyes and minds of many.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195


Good luck, he prefers to blame Dems for everything.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195


The DNC did not control primary voters votes. They picked Clinton. And there is little evidence that Sanders would have won, as the GOP would have just labeled him a socialist and it would be more or less the same general issue on a bigger scale.

The only one to blame for Trump are the people that voted for Trump. Those on the line could argue they were pushed by not liking Clinton more but even if that is their logic, or your hypothesis, one has to ask...

what let them overcome all the things Trump had done to that point that were just as bad or worse? Blaming somebody else for a given choice ignores the fact that there was a choice and one had to accept that they voted for a serial sexual abuser, a man who abused those that worked for him, was a con artist, ripped off loads of people, is a serial liar on an epic scale, appears to be overally friendly to dictators and tyrants, has no understanding of government, no respect for science and no respect for any rule other than his own, loads of conflicts of interest and no clear way for him to remove himself from it, that he would bring his family into positions of power and that he surrounded himself with unqualified people.

And that ignores the brewing scandals with Russia that were downplayed by the media, ignoring FBI findings on Clinton for talking point purposes, playing up racial hatred, xenophobia and so on and so forth. The guy had no coherent policy on taxes, immigration (other than a wall) and basically anything of importance to the US. Other than the fact that he was loud and said he was the only one who could fix the problem.

Clinton was part of the problem. But anybody who voted for Trump has to square with everything I listed and more. And say that sounds ok to me. As opposed to Clinton whose biggest issue was not being found guilty of any illegal acts after having Russia and wikileaks work against the DNC. She was wrong with what she did, but it was also wrong for Trump to root for Russia in the whole thing.


The both sides do it is hogwash in this case. And people that voted for Trump while holding their nose are just as responsible taking everything into account, or not knowing, as the guy who is a hard right loon.

Clinton was not a good candidate, that does not excuse Trump. Probably the worst candidate and one of the worst presidents to this point. Historic unpopularity being what it is, that is not a stretch to make.




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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    Good luck, he prefers to blame Dems for everything.


A good argument can be made against Democrats, but it will never be an adequate excuse for supporting Trump. And I've never seen political division this bad in my lifetime.

It's not a choice of right or left, conservative or liberal -- but one of simple human decency.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525



    Quote:
    The DNC did not control primary voters votes. They picked Clinton. And there is little evidence that Sanders would have won, as the GOP would have just labeled him a socialist and it would be more or less the same general issue on a bigger scale.


Incorrect...all preliminary polls showed Clinton would lose to Trump but beat the other republican hopefuls. Bernie was polled as beating Trump and some of the other republican hopefuls' but possibly not all.


    Quote:
    The only one to blame for Trump are the people that voted for Trump. Those on the line could argue they were pushed by not liking Clinton more but even if that is their logic, or your hypothesis, one has to ask...


Yes...keep denying any failures on the Democrats side...and we get Trump for 4 more years. Keep blaming and pointing fingers and never consider what the Democrats should do better on.


    Quote:
    what let them overcome all the things Trump had done to that point that were just as bad or worse? Blaming somebody else for a given choice ignores the fact that there was a choice and one had to accept that they voted for a serial sexual abuser, a man who abused those that worked for him, was a con artist, ripped off loads of people, is a serial liar on an epic scale, appears to be overally friendly to dictators and tyrants, has no understanding of government, no respect for science and no respect for any rule other than his own, loads of conflicts of interest and no clear way for him to remove himself from it, that he would bring his family into positions of power and that he surrounded himself with unqualified people.



    Quote:
    And that ignores the brewing scandals with Russia that were downplayed by the media, ignoring FBI findings on Clinton for talking point purposes, playing up racial hatred, xenophobia and so on and so forth. The guy had no coherent policy on taxes, immigration (other than a wall) and basically anything of importance to the US. Other than the fact that he was loud and said he was the only one who could fix the problem.



    Quote:
    Clinton was part of the problem. But anybody who voted for Trump has to square with everything I listed and more. And say that sounds ok to me. As opposed to Clinton whose biggest issue was not being found guilty of any illegal acts after having Russia and wikileaks work against the DNC. She was wrong with what she did, but it was also wrong for Trump to root for Russia in the whole thing.


Clinton is better choice than Trump for sure...but she had many problems

1)There are many accusations about her Husbands molesting ways...and evidence she attacked her "fellow" women to shut them up.
2)The DNC garbage
3)Purely running on identity politics and being surprised when those she left out of her speeches in support of special interest grops didn't vote for her.


    Quote:

    The both sides do it is hogwash in this case. And people that voted for Trump while holding their nose are just as responsible taking everything into account, or not knowing, as the guy who is a hard right loon.


It's not hogwash...its denying the facts. The Republicans are worse, but every time one side points a finger at the other it is later revealed they are acting poorly too (Ex: Al Frankin)


    Quote:
    Clinton was not a good candidate, that does not excuse Trump. Probably the worst candidate and one of the worst presidents to this point. Historic unpopularity being what it is, that is not a stretch to make.


True and not true. The nukes haven't flown yet...and that's all we kept hearing about. Continue to deny and blame others who don't vote like you...continue to demonize them and ignore their views. And prepare for another 7-years of Trump as you do so.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Good luck, he prefers to blame Dems for everything.



    Quote:
    A good argument can be made against Democrats, but it will never be an adequate excuse for supporting Trump. And I've never seen political division this bad in my lifetime.



    Quote:
    It's not a choice of right or left, conservative or liberal -- but one of simple human decency.


Trump should not have been supported...but there are very clear reasons why he won. bd likes to point fingers instead of trying to learn from mistakes...oh and deny he is a Liberal and call anyone who doesn't agree with his SJW ways as a Conservative.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    Trump should not have been supported...but there are very clear reasons why he won. bd likes to point fingers instead of trying to learn from mistakes...oh and deny he is a Liberal and call anyone who doesn't agree with his SJW ways as a Conservative.


Not sure why anyone would object to the liberal label, since it is steeped in the ideology of equality and civil rights. I'd wear that as a badge of honor myself.

I don't label Trump supporters as conservative, since his agenda is not a conservative one. There is not a policy he has put forth that is genuinely conservative, and his rhetoric is that of a nationalist. The fact that 'America First' is a white-nationalist, isolationist campaign from the 1940s is supportive of this notion.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Trump should not have been supported...but there are very clear reasons why he won. bd likes to point fingers instead of trying to learn from mistakes...oh and deny he is a Liberal and call anyone who doesn't agree with his SJW ways as a Conservative.



    Quote:
    Not sure why anyone would object to the liberal label, since it is steeped in the ideology of equality and civil rights. I'd wear that as a badge of honor myself.



    Quote:
    I don't label Trump supporters as conservative, since his agenda is not a conservative one. There is not a policy he has put forth that is genuinely conservative, and his rhetoric is that of a nationalist. The fact that 'America First' is a white-nationalist, isolationist campaign from the 1940s is supportive of this notion.


I wouldn't say its White nationalistic..just Nationalistic. Which isn't bad by default...it can be good to promote your country and values. It's when it goes too far that it is an issue...which all too often it can.

IMHO he won because he didn't play identity politics the same way the Democratic party has...and the media was jumping through his hoops. He is a con man and he took advantage of the situation.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,085


He pretty much doesn't care what people think about him, and he really doesn't hold back or censor himself. I don't think that people thought that Clinton really had a backbone. That's why I think that he won. And to be fair to Trump, his sexual misconduct has never been legally proven.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Good luck, he prefers to blame Dems for everything.



    Quote:
    A good argument can be made against Democrats, but it will never be an adequate excuse for supporting Trump. And I've never seen political division this bad in my lifetime.


I am not saying they are innocent. And I used poor phrasing. Regarding the election results, everything is blamed on the Dems with minimal blame on the GOP or voters.

So, you are correct. I am mistaken.


    Quote:
    It's not a choice of right or left, conservative or liberal -- but one of simple human decency.


To a point. I mean consider, while everything you say is correct, about 80% of Republican's approve of Trump.

And there are some polls that make it fairly clear, a few recent ones, that what conservatism was is morphing to Trump's ends. Or at least sympathies are.

Consider that many conservatives very open to free markets are not much more supportive of protectionist provisions and so on. So, I would argue from a somewhat different hypothesis. Trump in many ways is the worst of conservatism personified. Most poll takers do not like the man, but most Republicans and conservatives do. I do not think we can ignore that either.






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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195


I deleted my initial response, this will be brief.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The DNC did not control primary voters votes. They picked Clinton. And there is little evidence that Sanders would have won, as the GOP would have just labeled him a socialist and it would be more or less the same general issue on a bigger scale.



    Quote:
    Incorrect...all preliminary polls showed Clinton would lose to Trump but beat the other republican hopefuls. Bernie was polled as beating Trump and some of the other republican hopefuls' but possibly not all.


That is not true. All polls did not show that. Most showed varying people beating Trump. And it is not entirely accurate to look at those, as primary polling is more inaccurate that standard polling.

Sanders was far from a flawless candidate. I liked him more than Clinton by a mile and voted for the man. However, Clinton also had massive leads in the general outside of when scandals broke with the email system.

Many were already a bit bias against Clinton. Some for valid reasons and some not so much. It also did not help that the FBI seemed to announce non-scandals at bad times that seemed to help Trump.

It was an odd election that went from scandal to scandal. And neither candidate was very likable. However, I am skeptical that many American's would vote for a guy calling himself a socialist in the general election.

That would seem to drive away many so-called independents right there.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The only one to blame for Trump are the people that voted for Trump. Those on the line could argue they were pushed by not liking Clinton more but even if that is their logic, or your hypothesis, one has to ask...



    Quote:
    Yes...keep denying any failures on the Democrats side...and we get Trump for 4 more years. Keep blaming and pointing fingers and never consider what the Democrats should do better on.


Who is denying their failures? They had a bad candidate, but the GOP had a worse one. The ones that voted for Trump voted for the worse guy. How is it not their fault?

Even if you want to argue that the Dems had a hand in their own downfall, which is fair, you are also seem to be saying (based on this and other claims) that the voters that voted for Trump basically had no choice.

They made their choice. And picked probably the worst president in US history, that has gone to not change and gradually make every issue more partisan than ever. I hold those people responsible more than anything.

Most of my extended family voted for the man. Most were conservative anyway but their reasons were not because they disliked Clinton (they did), they basically loved that Trump was going to get rid of the Mexicans and bring all the jobs back.

Lies, but ones that many believed. And he got more of his people out in more spots. That is the name of the game at this point in politics. Like it or not. And just like if Dems had a poor candidate elected, it would be the fault of the people that voted for him or her not taking the entire person into context.

I suppose you can argue the lesser of two evils, however it does not compute to me how Trump is the lesser of any two evils anywhere. At least not on the stage we had last year. But conservatives voted for the man and cheered his nationalism. They have no blame though.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      what let them overcome all the things Trump had done to that point that were just as bad or worse? Blaming somebody else for a given choice ignores the fact that there was a choice and one had to accept that they voted for a serial sexual abuser, a man who abused those that worked for him, was a con artist, ripped off loads of people, is a serial liar on an epic scale, appears to be overally friendly to dictators and tyrants, has no understanding of government, no respect for science and no respect for any rule other than his own, loads of conflicts of interest and no clear way for him to remove himself from it, that he would bring his family into positions of power and that he surrounded himself with unqualified people.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        And that ignores the brewing scandals with Russia that were downplayed by the media, ignoring FBI findings on Clinton for talking point purposes, playing up racial hatred, xenophobia and so on and so forth. The guy had no coherent policy on taxes, immigration (other than a wall) and basically anything of importance to the US. Other than the fact that he was loud and said he was the only one who could fix the problem.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Clinton was part of the problem. But anybody who voted for Trump has to square with everything I listed and more. And say that sounds ok to me. As opposed to Clinton whose biggest issue was not being found guilty of any illegal acts after having Russia and wikileaks work against the DNC. She was wrong with what she did, but it was also wrong for Trump to root for Russia in the whole thing.



    Quote:
    Clinton is better choice than Trump for sure...but she had many problems


Oh, she is flawed. I am not saying she is not. My statement is that everything I said was known. People made their choice. And a pretty bad one.


    Quote:
    1)There are many accusations about her Husbands molesting ways...and evidence she attacked her "fellow" women to shut them up.
    2)The DNC garbage
    3)Purely running on identity politics and being surprised when those she left out of her speeches in support of special interest grops didn't vote for her.


1. Yes, but Bill Clinton was not running for president. And while her actions were definitely negative. Trump bragged about grabbing women by the vagina, kissing without permission and had many accusers come out directly accusing them. He called them all liars.

How does it equate? One side is directly doing the stuff, the other side is more indirect. That is not close to the same. Trump was proud of it even.

2. I am not supportive of the DNC in general. I do not think many American's cared. Why would that matter more than Trump's campaign trying to get help from a foreign power to help out? Which one of those seems shadier?

3. I am going to call this one as bs. Both parties call on identity politics. The GOP and conservatives call to whites. The Dems are mostly minorities and some whites.

I am not sure why many just pretend that only Dems do this. There is a reason most with conservative leanings tend to be white. Not all by any means, but if you look at polling from the election more white people voted for Trump.

We can say that is because Dems drove them away but that is not true. White's always vote more for the GOP. Because they tend to support things the way they are. Which is more in favor of white people. Not saying they are all racist, but it is as much identity politics as the other. If not more.

We just hear that Dems or liberals need to reach out more. Not sure why we do not hear that as much with the GOP or conservatives. Not sure if we just give up and think the base will not do it.

I am speaking in generalities, but it is very true that whites mostly vote for the GOP. Particularly white men. That is not coincidence.


    Quote:

      Quote:

      The both sides do it is hogwash in this case. And people that voted for Trump while holding their nose are just as responsible taking everything into account, or not knowing, as the guy who is a hard right loon.



    Quote:
    It's not hogwash...its denying the facts. The Republicans are worse, but every time one side points a finger at the other it is later revealed they are acting poorly too (Ex: Al Frankin)


So, Al Frankin is the same as Trump bragging about molesting women and then accusing them all of being liars. Or Moore calling all his accusers liars but more or less admitting to dating teen girls at the time?

Frankin, at least for one, did apologize. I am in the camp that he should consider stepping down. However, he did eventually come clean on the first one (have not heard about the other).

Trump and Moore are guilty, but they just do not admitt it (Interestingly, Moore even likely met his wife while she was a teen and potentially underage when he went to watch a girls dance recidal).

And the both side do it thing is a mess because it is an excuse. It does not matter who does it. We need to hold them accountable. If a Dem does it they should get the ax or in trouble as much as anything.

But at the moment Frankin is being attacked by conservatives who will support Moore to the end. Moore should be disqualified, Trump should have been too and Frankin should more than likely step down.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Clinton was not a good candidate, that does not excuse Trump. Probably the worst candidate and one of the worst presidents to this point. Historic unpopularity being what it is, that is not a stretch to make.



    Quote:
    True and not true. The nukes haven't flown yet...and that's all we kept hearing about. Continue to deny and blame others who don't vote like you...continue to demonize them and ignore their views. And prepare for another 7-years of Trump as you do so.


So, your standard is nukes or no nukes? I bet you have gone after other president for much less. Goal post moving much?

I am not blaming anybody but those that voted the way they did. You are making excuse for them. And will continue to do so. Basically then, those that voted for Trump had a gun to their head by Dems to vote for the guy.

That is pure hogwash. And I could use sterner language. If you check out polls and read stories most Trump voters are not worth reaching out to in the first place. Maybe at the margins.

I am just saying, that if you payed a little attention the way folks win elections is driving their base out. It is not winning over large numbers of voters. There are swing voters but most of those have tendencies.

And we need to stop pretending Trump won in a landslide. He did not win the popular vote and in the electoral college, in many swing states he won by bare margins. He drove his base out with partisanship, nationalism and promises that he never cared to keep.

If those people want to keep Trump around and other voters stay at home. Than we all deserve another 7 years of Trump.

I still cannot believe a nuclear war is your marker now. Come on man.






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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    I wouldn't say its White nationalistic..just Nationalistic. Which isn't bad by default...it can be good to promote your country and values. It's when it goes too far that it is an issue...which all too often it can.


I do appreciate your politeness in discussing this, just an aside and acknowledgement. It is rare to contrast opinions on a hot-button issue like this and not have things explode.

Regarding nationalism, I have honestly not seen or heard of a form of nationalism that wasn't ultimately tied to racial identity. The Nazis redefined socialism a 'nationalist' movement (hence the term 'National Socialism').

The famous Charles Linbergh, who was sympathetic to the Nazi ideology, pushed for isolation and anti-semitism under the banner of 'America First'. This nationalist movement ultimately ended until in disgrace, until recent years, with a recorded speech which protested the Jewish influence in America.

Bannon says that he's an Economic Nationalist. Which just on the surface is a self-destructive protectionist ideology, and is the antithesis of traditional conservationism and free market capitalism. The kind of candidate Bannon pushes for in his populist-protectionist-nationalist movement happen to have very disturbing viewpoints beyond economics (outright anti-American views, such as the subversion of the First Amendment).

If nationalism can be channeled towards something other than jingoism and/or racism and bigotry, I would absolutely be all for it. Historically, this hasn't been the case.

I remember an old Star Trek episode where a Star Fleet Captain tries to fix a troubled planet by introducing National Socialism (Nazism). His goal was to channel the efficiency of the system towards positive change. It didn't turn out very well for that society. Not that Science fiction is particularly relevant, but this thought-experiment has examined in that arena.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    He pretty much doesn't care what people think about him, and he really doesn't hold back or censor himself. I don't think that people thought that Clinton really had a backbone. That's why I think that he won.


You are somewhat correct. I don't want to beat up on Hillary, but if she fought for the ideology she represented (ultimately a moderate-centrist vision), rather than ceding every argument to Bernie, she would have fared better after the battle was won.

Obama believed in TPP, pushed for TPP, and he was probably right on that score in retrospect. Hillary didn't want to make the case that America should have a hand in writing international trade policies, so she didn't. She ceded the battle.

The problem is that Trump so greatly overshadows Hillary that she effectively gets a free pass for her failings. The Democrats get a pass. The metaphor I'd use is that it's difficult to inspect and catalog smoke damage of a house while its still engulfed in flames.


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    And to be fair to Trump, his sexual misconduct has never been legally proven.


And to be fairer to the record beyond that -- there are allegations against Trump which precede the 2016 election allegations, and which are far more serious.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525



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    I deleted my initial response, this will be brief.


Briefer you mean? \:\)


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        The DNC did not control primary voters votes. They picked Clinton. And there is little evidence that Sanders would have won, as the GOP would have just labeled him a socialist and it would be more or less the same general issue on a bigger scale.

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        Incorrect...all preliminary polls showed Clinton would lose to Trump but beat the other republican hopefuls. Bernie was polled as beating Trump and some of the other republican hopefuls' but possibly not all.



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    That is not true. All polls did not show that. Most showed varying people beating Trump. And it is not entirely accurate to look at those, as primary polling is more inaccurate that standard polling.


Ok MANY polls then for example:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/09/bernie-sanders-donald-trump/93530352/


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    Sanders was far from a flawless candidate. I liked him more than Clinton by a mile and voted for the man. However, Clinton also had massive leads in the general outside of when scandals broke with the email system.



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    Many were already a bit bias against Clinton. Some for valid reasons and some not so much. It also did not help that the FBI seemed to announce non-scandals at bad times that seemed to help Trump.


The media was almost exclusively anti-Trump as well. They also spent too much time talking about those emails (though almost exclusively in her defense).


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    It was an odd election that went from scandal to scandal. And neither candidate was very likable. However, I am skeptical that many American's would vote for a guy calling himself a socialist in the general election.



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    That would seem to drive away many so-called independents right there.


And yet it really didn't.


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        The only one to blame for Trump are the people that voted for Trump. Those on the line could argue they were pushed by not liking Clinton more but even if that is their logic, or your hypothesis, one has to ask...

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        Yes...keep denying any failures on the Democrats side...and we get Trump for 4 more years. Keep blaming and pointing fingers and never consider what the Democrats should do better on.



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    Who is denying their failures? They had a bad candidate, but the GOP had a worse one. The ones that voted for Trump voted for the worse guy. How is it not their fault?


You comments of I blame everything on the Dems is not indicative that you accept any wrong doing or failures on the Dems part. I made it more than clear I focus more of the Dems failures because I see them more capable of learning from their mistakes and improving their choices than I do the Republicans. And demonizing those who felt they couldn't vote for Hillary is the wrong direction to go...it forces them further away.


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    Even if you want to argue that the Dems had a hand in their own downfall, which is fair, you are also seem to be saying (based on this and other claims) that the voters that voted for Trump basically had no choice.


I have made no claims at all about them other than that some had very good reasons and some had very bad ones, and some just had no clue.


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    They made their choice. And picked probably the worst president in US history, that has gone to not change and gradually make every issue more partisan than ever. I hold those people responsible more than anything.


I have heard this ever election "the worst president in US history"...that really remains to be seen. Carter/Bush/etc...were also terrible.


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    Most of my extended family voted for the man. Most were conservative anyway but their reasons were not because they disliked Clinton (they did), they basically loved that Trump was going to get rid of the Mexicans and bring all the jobs back.


As silly as this is of them...how is it any different then Hillarys promises to help only certain minorities and explicitly leaving others out? You can give a snarky retort, or ignore this, or call it stupid...but I will tell you its no different. It's no better and its just as racist and sexist. At the very least it comes across that way to those who here it and saying that this has been done to minorities and women throughout history doesn't make you better when you do the same...it makes you SEEM the same.


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    Lies, but ones that many believed. And he got more of his people out in more spots. That is the name of the game at this point in politics. Like it or not. And just like if Dems had a poor candidate elected, it would be the fault of the people that voted for him or her not taking the entire person into context.


Yes he is a terrible man and a liar. As most people in his position are...in reality most of them need to go.


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    I suppose you can argue the lesser of two evils, however it does not compute to me how Trump is the lesser of any two evils anywhere. At least not on the stage we had last year. But conservatives voted for the man and cheered his nationalism. They have no blame though.


To you...because he represents the special interests you have. Other people have other special interests and will vote for him.


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        what let them overcome all the things Trump had done to that point that were just as bad or worse? Blaming somebody else for a given choice ignores the fact that there was a choice and one had to accept that they voted for a serial sexual abuser, a man who abused those that worked for him, was a con artist, ripped off loads of people, is a serial liar on an epic scale, appears to be overally friendly to dictators and tyrants, has no understanding of government, no respect for science and no respect for any rule other than his own, loads of conflicts of interest and no clear way for him to remove himself from it, that he would bring his family into positions of power and that he surrounded himself with unqualified people.

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          And that ignores the brewing scandals with Russia that were downplayed by the media, ignoring FBI findings on Clinton for talking point purposes, playing up racial hatred, xenophobia and so on and so forth. The guy had no coherent policy on taxes, immigration (other than a wall) and basically anything of importance to the US. Other than the fact that he was loud and said he was the only one who could fix the problem.

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            Clinton was part of the problem. But anybody who voted for Trump has to square with everything I listed and more. And say that sounds ok to me. As opposed to Clinton whose biggest issue was not being found guilty of any illegal acts after having Russia and wikileaks work against the DNC. She was wrong with what she did, but it was also wrong for Trump to root for Russia in the whole thing.

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        Clinton is better choice than Trump for sure...but she had many problems



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    Oh, she is flawed. I am not saying she is not. My statement is that everything I said was known. People made their choice. And a pretty bad one.


Known? You assume people trust the media anymore. They have many good reasons not too...step up todays example Charlie Rose. The media has lost the trust of the people and this too plays a part in Clinton losing the election.


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      1)There are many accusations about her Husbands molesting ways...and evidence she attacked her "fellow" women to shut them up.
      2)The DNC garbage
      3)Purely running on identity politics and being surprised when those she left out of her speeches in support of special interest grops didn't vote for her.



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    1. Yes, but Bill Clinton was not running for president. And while her actions were definitely negative. Trump bragged about grabbing women by the vagina, kissing without permission and had many accusers come out directly accusing them. He called them all liars.


No but she was...and her actions reflect on her quite glaringly. Clinton has had MANY accusers as well...all of them attacked by Hillary...just as Trump is attacking his. They are both scum for this.


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    How does it equate? One side is directly doing the stuff, the other side is more indirect. That is not close to the same. Trump was proud of it even.



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    2. I am not supportive of the DNC in general. I do not think many American's cared. Why would that matter more than Trump's campaign trying to get help from a foreign power to help out? Which one of those seems shadier?


They should care...there was collusion...followed by collusion with the DNC heads replacement immediately. There is also "possible" new evidence of the Clintons colluding with Russia as well. I personally want Trump fully investigated over his stuff...and the Clintons over those Uranium sales to Moscow both.


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    3. I am going to call this one as bs. Both parties call on identity politics. The GOP and conservatives call to whites. The Dems are mostly minorities and some whites.


The Dems are blatant...call BS all the heck you want. Show me where the GOP says...I will make WHITE-MALE lives better and ONLY focuses on this. I listened to Hillary...her words were always special interest groups oriented. The republicans are business and the rich.


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    I am not sure why many just pretend that only Dems do this. There is a reason most with conservative leanings tend to be white. Not all by any means, but if you look at polling from the election more white people voted for Trump.



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    We can say that is because Dems drove them away but that is not true. White's always vote more for the GOP. Because they tend to support things the way they are. Which is more in favor of white people. Not saying they are all racist, but it is as much identity politics as the other. If not more.




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    We just hear that Dems or liberals need to reach out more. Not sure why we do not hear that as much with the GOP or conservatives. Not sure if we just give up and think the base will not do it.



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    I am speaking in generalities, but it is very true that whites mostly vote for the GOP. Particularly white men. That is not coincidence.


You want to see some voting percentages based on race?
Look here:
https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2008/

White votes 55% McCain
Black Voters 95% Obama

Tell me again how this makes Whitey more biased?


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        The both sides do it is hogwash in this case. And people that voted for Trump while holding their nose are just as responsible taking everything into account, or not knowing, as the guy who is a hard right loon.

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        It's not hogwash...its denying the facts. The Republicans are worse, but every time one side points a finger at the other it is later revealed they are acting poorly too (Ex: Al Frankin)


Your right...its hogwash....95% is a vastly greater percentage than 55%


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    So, Al Frankin is the same as Trump bragging about molesting women and then accusing them all of being liars. Or Moore calling all his accusers liars but more or less admitting to dating teen girls at the time?


The point flew over your head.


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    Frankin, at least for one, did apologize. I am in the camp that he should consider stepping down. However, he did eventually come clean on the first one (have not heard about the other).



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    Trump and Moore are guilty, but they just do not admitt it (Interestingly, Moore even likely met his wife while she was a teen and potentially underage when he went to watch a girls dance recidal).



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    And the both side do it thing is a mess because it is an excuse. It does not matter who does it. We need to hold them accountable. If a Dem does it they should get the ax or in trouble as much as anything.



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    But at the moment Frankin is being attacked by conservatives who will support Moore to the end. Moore should be disqualified, Trump should have been too and Frankin should more than likely step down.



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        Clinton was not a good candidate, that does not excuse Trump. Probably the worst candidate and one of the worst presidents to this point. Historic unpopularity being what it is, that is not a stretch to make.

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        True and not true. The nukes haven't flown yet...and that's all we kept hearing about. Continue to deny and blame others who don't vote like you...continue to demonize them and ignore their views. And prepare for another 7-years of Trump as you do so.



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    So, your standard is nukes or no nukes? I bet you have gone after other president for much less. Goal post moving much?


I was referring to the outrageous claims made during the election...but sure make this your selling point.


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    I am not blaming anybody but those that voted the way they did. You are making excuse for them. And will continue to do so. Basically then, those that voted for Trump had a gun to their head by Dems to vote for the guy.



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    That is pure hogwash. And I could use sterner language. If you check out polls and read stories most Trump voters are not worth reaching out to in the first place. Maybe at the margins.



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    I am just saying, that if you payed a little attention the way folks win elections is driving their base out. It is not winning over large numbers of voters. There are swing voters but most of those have tendencies.



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    And we need to stop pretending Trump won in a landslide. He did not win the popular vote and in the electoral college, in many swing states he won by bare margins. He drove his base out with partisanship, nationalism and promises that he never cared to keep.



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    If those people want to keep Trump around and other voters stay at home. Than we all deserve another 7 years of Trump.



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    I still cannot believe a nuclear war is your marker now. Come on man.


Come one man try to comprehend. It was an example of exaggerated comments made during and after the election. Not a basis on voting for a president. Maybe your still trying to reconcile that somehow 55% is more than 95%?


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,525



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I wouldn't say its White nationalistic..just Nationalistic. Which isn't bad by default...it can be good to promote your country and values. It's when it goes too far that it is an issue...which all too often it can.



    Quote:
    I do appreciate your politeness in discussing this, just an aside and acknowledgement. It is rare to contrast opinions on a hot-button issue like this and not have things explode.



    Quote:
    Regarding nationalism, I have honestly not seen or heard of a form of nationalism that wasn't ultimately tied to racial identity. The Nazis redefined socialism a 'nationalist' movement (hence the term 'National Socialism').



    Quote:
    The famous Charles Linbergh, who was sympathetic to the Nazi ideology, pushed for isolation and anti-semitism under the banner of 'America First'. This nationalist movement ultimately ended until in disgrace, until recent years, with a recorded speech which protested the Jewish influence in America.



    Quote:
    Bannon says that he's an Economic Nationalist. Which just on the surface is a self-destructive protectionist ideology, and is the antithesis of traditional conservationism and free market capitalism. The kind of candidate Bannon pushes for in his populist-protectionist-nationalist movement happen to have very disturbing viewpoints beyond economics (outright anti-American views, such as the subversion of the First Amendment).



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    If nationalism can be channeled towards something other than jingoism and/or racism and bigotry, I would absolutely be all for it. Historically, this hasn't been the case.



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    I remember an old Star Trek episode where a Star Fleet Captain tries to fix a troubled planet by introducing National Socialism (Nazism). His goal was to channel the efficiency of the system towards positive change. It didn't turn out very well for that society. Not that Science fiction is particularly relevant, but this thought-experiment has examined in that arena.


The problem with nationalism is...well the people and the personal agendas they put into it.

I see nothing wrong with being proud of your country and its values...as long as you are open to improving on them. That's what I feel "used" to be Americas identity. Now its all...opposing forces pushing their own agendas...from both extremes.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,344



    Quote:
    He pretty much doesn't care what people think about him


That's completely not true. Trump cares so much that he has to tweet insults after every slight. Trump is the most thin-skinned president in the history of the United States.


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    and he really doesn't hold back or censor himself.


That part is true to the detriment of U.S. diplomacy.


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    I don't think that people thought that Clinton really had a backbone. That's why I think that he won.


Well, that's part of it, but a small part.


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    And to be fair to Trump, his sexual misconduct has never been legally proven.


Trump admitted to sexual harassment on tape! He boasted about groping women. How is that not proven? Trump admitted to walking into Miss America dressing rooms while the women were undressed and boasted about seeing them naked! How is that not proven?




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,344



    Quote:
    They did not offer a very good option. They had one in Bernie, but their own manipulations in the DNC and the media cost them.


Dems do have to take some responsibility for the loss, but not nearly as much as responsibility as the Republicans who voted for Trump. There is simply no way to state with a straight face that the people who actively voted AGAINST Trump are just as much to blame as the people who actively voted FOR Trump.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,195



    Quote:
    He pretty much doesn't care what people think about him, and he really doesn't hold back or censor himself. I don't think that people thought that Clinton really had a backbone. That's why I think that he won. And to be fair to Trump, his sexual misconduct has never been legally proven.


Oh, he cares quite a bit. It is why he lashes out so much. If he did not care he would not expect everybody to acknowledge that he is always the greatest or all credit should go to him. He has pretty thin skin.


I am not sure I agree with that, but I have not looked out every poll. It depends on what people mean by backbone. If they mean actually standing up to people than Clinton has Trump beat. The guy is loud and talks tough but generally folds like a lawn chair. He has done so to most of the foreign leaders he has called out and says we are cool now. Unless they are allies, then he goes off on them.

Keep in mind, he did so well at standing up to Putin that he is willing to take his word over all US intelligence agencies and Congress. That is pretty damning right there. He even wanted to cooperate with them on cybersecurity. The country that was involved with messing with our election. Does not matter if you think Trump's campaign was directly involved or not. That is a big big deal.


The last point you make troubles me a little. Do all things need to be proven in court to have actually happened? Those are pretty poor standards. Given he has bragged about it on tape and various reports and accounts have him as committing varying degrees of assault. Meeting the legal definition is not always what one thinks it should be. And just because something may be technically ok under the law does not make it ok at all.

I mean by Trump's exoneration of Moore, his logic is very much that if the person challenges the charges against them than they are innocent. Tell me how that makes any sense. Does that mean anytime somebody denies charges they are off the hook? That is a busted standard.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,717



    Quote:
    Maybe the media does hate Trump, but can you blame them? He pretty much declared war on them from the start.

This point doesn't get enough consideration. Every other president - even GWB - made a point of playing diplomatically with the media. Get them on your side, play ball with them, play the game. Trump doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body. He sees diplomacy as a display of weakness. And worse, he is playing the propaganda game that people can only trust his word - not the word of third-party checks/balances like the media.


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    Bias or not, what I don't see is "Fake news." Just about every negative reported on Trump is a product of his own making. That said, I do think the media puts him in the spotlight a bit too much.

I haven't seen evidence of the media reporting something that isn't true, but I have seen great exaggeration. I stopped watching CNN because it turned into the Trump Network. From time to time I like to hear some news that doesn't revolve around the world's most famous narcissist.





And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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