Community >> View Thread

Author
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113


Many people we thought we knew and respected will be -- and have been -- caught in the avalanche of substantiated allegations. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Society needs to undergo this transition and transformation. If those in power thought there would be consequences for their behavior -- if there hadn't been tacit and unspoken permission for this behavior -- it may not have occurred in the first place. Now that these consequences have been laid bare, I hope it will usher in a new era of workplace safety.

One thing is clear is that sexual abuse and aggression has no ideological, political or cultural boundaries. The bi-partisan condemnation of this behavior is encouraging, if late -- on both sides of the aisle.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,604



    Quote:
    Many people we thought we knew and respected will be -- and have been -- caught in the avalanche of substantiated allegations. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.


Really, there are likely many cases that we will never hear about. Just like many sorts of epidemiology sorts of studies, things are always more wide spread


    Quote:
    Society needs to undergo this transition and transformation. If those in power thought there would be consequences for their behavior -- if there hadn't been tacit and unspoken permission for this behavior -- it may not have occurred in the first place. Now that these consequences have been laid bare, I hope it will usher in a new era of workplace safety.


I do think that most workplaces have improved over time, although that is just my hunch over time. Does not mean that this sort of thing is not still a problem but I do not think it is as consistently as rampant as before. That said, it still is a problem.


    Quote:
    One thing is clear is that sexual abuse and aggression has no ideological, political or cultural boundaries. The bi-partisan condemnation of this behavior is encouraging, if late -- on both sides of the aisle.


Maybe, in some places legislatures and such still try to pass things that make it harder to come forward with this sort of information.

Really, the biggest part of this, so far, has been that this is unacceptable on a societal level. This is critical for any change. If the activity is found not to be ok than change can happen on a large scale. If not, than it will not. So, that is a positive at least.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,948



    Quote:
    Many people we thought we knew and respected will be -- and have been -- caught in the avalanche of substantiated allegations. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.


Yep. Apparently Charlie Rose is the latest to be exposed. What I'm finding curious is, Cosby had been accused years earlier, but the avalanche of women coming forward didn't start until Weinstein last month. I wonder what accounts for the gap.


    Quote:
    Society needs to undergo this transition and transformation. If those in power thought there would be consequences for their behavior -- if there hadn't been tacit and unspoken permission for this behavior -- it may not have occurred in the first place. Now that these consequences have been laid bare, I hope it will usher in a new era of workplace safety.


One can only hope.

The culture of victim shaming has a lot to do with it as well. There's already enough internal shame at play when one is sexually aggrieved. I imagine that adding the extrinsic shame from those you hope believe your story can be pretty devastating.


    Quote:
    One thing is clear is that sexual abuse and aggression has no ideological, political or cultural boundaries. The bi-partisan condemnation of this behavior is encouraging, if late -- on both sides of the aisle.


I agree that sexual abuse straddles all boundaries, but I'm not convinced the condemnation of it is fully bipartisan. Where liberals have been pretty unequivocal in condemning Weinstein and Moore alike, there are still some conservatives/Republicans who support Moore. Kellyanne Conway just admitted the WH remains open to his candidacy because they'll need his vote on tax reform.





Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows 7
Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


Between true sexual abuse and harassment, and just women getting offended or feeling uncomfortable. There is true sexual harassment out there (And men can get harassed as well.), but sometimes it can be very vague. Pretty much anyone can be brought up or accused. I remember there was a time at my old job where the bus driver came in and said something like "Women can't cook , or cook as well as men.". A guy was cooking at that time, I think that he might have been joking, but then a female worker heard it, got offended, and accused him of sexual harassment. So sometimes (Or maybe even more than sometimes.) that happens, and sometimes it's just a case of women being offended or made uncomfortable by simple guy talk or male behavior. Heck, sometimes even harmless flirting can fall into this. So, I think that this can be a good thing if it gets us to really narrow this down, and at the same time, weed out the true harassers.


Posted with Google Chrome 56.0.2924.87 on Linux
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,113



    Quote:
    I agree that sexual abuse straddles all boundaries, but I'm not convinced the condemnation of it is fully bipartisan. Where liberals have been pretty unequivocal in condemning Weinstein and Moore alike, there are still some conservatives/Republicans who support Moore. Kellyanne Conway just admitted the WH remains open to his candidacy because they'll need his vote on tax reform.


I agree with your sentiment. The only thing I'd point out is that Trump and his circle are not really conservative. Although there are many kinds of conservative, Trump himself doesn't really fit into any of those categories. His campaign was a series of buzz words and themes that were designed to stoke the angst of the Republican base.

I also think that 'conservatives' who are currently trying to loot the treasury and bloat the debt are not conservative. Paul Ryan, a guy who cut his ideological teeth on Atlas Shrugged (and originally ran on debt-crisis), has largely been revealed to be a fraud.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,931



    Quote:
    Between true sexual abuse and harassment, and just women getting offended or feeling uncomfortable. There is true sexual harassment out there (And men can get harassed as well.), but sometimes it can be very vague. Pretty much anyone can be brought up or accused. I remember there was a time at my old job where the bus driver came in and said something like "Women can't cook , or cook as well as men.". A guy was cooking at that time, I think that he might have been joking, but then a female worker heard it, got offended, and accused him of sexual harassment. So sometimes (Or maybe even more than sometimes.) that happens, and sometimes it's just a case of women being offended or made uncomfortable by simple guy talk or male behavior. Heck, sometimes even harmless flirting can fall into this. So, I think that this can be a good thing if it gets us to really narrow this down, and at the same time, weed out the true harassers.


...what has really happened.

I personally know of many cases where a relative, ex-girlfriend, a friend, etc...has expressed how they were sexually harassed. It then turned out to be something as little as a man they found unattractive asking them out, for a phone number or saying they thought they were very pretty. They would say..."It made me feel uncomfortable." And I was flabbergasted at how overly sensitive and over the top their reactions were.

That said...there IS a lot of harassment out there and it is totally unacceptable behavior for men (or women) to treat the opposite sex so inappropriately.

Where evidence is clear its easy...where its not so clear or its a he said/she said case it becomes very difficult and I am not sure how to solve this.

Any woman assaulted should feel safe coming forward and pinning her molester to the wall legally...however false accusations should also face severe repercussions as you cold ruin a persons life over something like this even if they are proven innocent.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,948



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I agree that sexual abuse straddles all boundaries, but I'm not convinced the condemnation of it is fully bipartisan. Where liberals have been pretty unequivocal in condemning Weinstein and Moore alike, there are still some conservatives/Republicans who support Moore. Kellyanne Conway just admitted the WH remains open to his candidacy because they'll need his vote on tax reform.



    Quote:
    I agree with your sentiment. The only thing I'd point out is that Trump and his circle are not really conservative. Although there are many kinds of conservative, Trump himself doesn't really fit into any of those categories. His campaign was a series of buzz words and themes that were designed to stoke the angst of the Republican base.


I never considered him a conservative either, but he's successfully co-opted the party with very little push-back from Republicans not named McCain or Flake. When a President says he supports someone accused of pedophilia because he needs their vote, then the collective party needs to set the party aside and do what's right. Otherwise they're culpable.


    Quote:
    I also think that 'conservatives' who are currently trying to loot the treasury and bloat the debt are not conservative. Paul Ryan, a guy who cut his ideological teeth on Atlas Shrugged (and originally ran on debt-crisis), has largely been revealed to be a fraud.


Agreed.





Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,604



    Quote:
    Between true sexual abuse and harassment, and just women getting offended or feeling uncomfortable. There is true sexual harassment out there (And men can get harassed as well.), but sometimes it can be very vague. Pretty much anyone can be brought up or accused. I remember there was a time at my old job where the bus driver came in and said something like "Women can't cook , or cook as well as men.". A guy was cooking at that time, I think that he might have been joking, but then a female worker heard it, got offended, and accused him of sexual harassment. So sometimes (Or maybe even more than sometimes.) that happens, and sometimes it's just a case of women being offended or made uncomfortable by simple guy talk or male behavior. Heck, sometimes even harmless flirting can fall into this. So, I think that this can be a good thing if it gets us to really narrow this down, and at the same time, weed out the true harassers.


I understand the distinction you are trying to make with severity. If it makes somebody uncomfortable than it is a problem. The legal standard for sexual harassment in particularly does not cover all forms of harassment.

For instance, I think the "guy talk" out is lazy and lacks context. Where is it being discussed and what is being discussed. If it is at work, than it is not ok. Even if it does not rise to the level of sexual harassment it is unprofessional and not ok. It creates a poor environment that can lead to worse and worse things. That is a fact.

Harmless flirting is not always harmless. I think that gets lost on some men and women. Depending on the context of the situation. Even at a bar. It is probably ok to go up to somebody and flirt and ask them out. But if they tell you to get lost than pushing the issue and getting more and more raunchy is not ok. By no stretch. And in a professional environment it is hard to imagine a situation where it is ok.


With some of these ideas it may seem to be splitting hairs, but it is better than trying to make non existent distinctions at times. People in power abuse things all of the time in all manner of ways.

A man, and more often woman, has a right to be without unwanted advances. And in many of these cases these are serial problems. And often saying get lost is not enough to drive off such people. Pending the example it may not be illegal but it is still not ok.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,604



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Between true sexual abuse and harassment, and just women getting offended or feeling uncomfortable. There is true sexual harassment out there (And men can get harassed as well.), but sometimes it can be very vague. Pretty much anyone can be brought up or accused. I remember there was a time at my old job where the bus driver came in and said something like "Women can't cook , or cook as well as men.". A guy was cooking at that time, I think that he might have been joking, but then a female worker heard it, got offended, and accused him of sexual harassment. So sometimes (Or maybe even more than sometimes.) that happens, and sometimes it's just a case of women being offended or made uncomfortable by simple guy talk or male behavior. Heck, sometimes even harmless flirting can fall into this. So, I think that this can be a good thing if it gets us to really narrow this down, and at the same time, weed out the true harassers.



    Quote:
    ...what has really happened.


It can be difficult, but that does not mean it is not a problem or did not happen either.

I mean it is pretty clear that a fair number of guys will deny pretty nasty things for as long as they can. I am sure some women do too but there is a pretty long list of people denying things until the end.

Even when there is some level of evidence there is. I think caution is called for but when a pattern emerges I think the threshold drops. Most people that do this sort of thing do not just do it once.


    Quote:
    I personally know of many cases where a relative, ex-girlfriend, a friend, etc...has expressed how they were sexually harassed. It then turned out to be something as little as a man they found unattractive asking them out, for a phone number or saying they thought they were very pretty. They would say..."It made me feel uncomfortable." And I was flabbergasted at how overly sensitive and over the top their reactions were.


I have not heard anything to that degree. Feeling uncomfortable about being asked out is not harassment. However, many women are being sent penis pictures they did not ask for. That is, being hit on all of the time after saying no can be. There are many others.

I know a fair number of women as well, and none have been that ticky tacky but they have been harassed to varying degrees. I would imagine they are more of the norm.


    Quote:
    That said...there IS a lot of harassment out there and it is totally unacceptable behavior for men (or women) to treat the opposite sex so inappropriately.



    Quote:
    Where evidence is clear its easy...where its not so clear or its a he said/she said case it becomes very difficult and I am not sure how to solve this.


One most keep in mind this does not have to meet the legal level of evidence. As some things can very much be harassment but not violate the law per se.

It depends on the situation, both parties involved, witnesses and so on and so forth. If it comes out, for instance, that a guy has a history of saying inappropriate things to women than it seems like things are stacked against the guy in that case.

It is rare that these guys are one offs. It is one of the reasons that once one person comes forward against somebody multiple people tend to do so as well.


    Quote:
    Any woman assaulted should feel safe coming forward and pinning her molester to the wall legally...however false accusations should also face severe repercussions as you cold ruin a persons life over something like this even if they are proven innocent.


I think this gets complicated. If you are saying, you have to have strong evidence to push a case legally or you will be punished is a good way of stopping women from coming forward in the first place.

Even if there is nothing legal to be done about the situation, if it is at work and a woman faces it than they need to report it. I understand what you are getting at, but it is a tough standard to meet.

What if somebody was assaulted, did not have an air tight case and the guy got better lawyers. Not only was the woman assaulted or whatever but now she is fined and facing a short jail term? That is not how the system works.

I am sure that there are false accusations, but most estimates do not have the false accusations as high as some folks like to make it be. There are man ymore men and women that are victums that are afraid to come forward.

At the moment, there is still a strong cultural movement in some circles, to call women liars outright. As a culture it has to be ok to tell somebody. Who that person is will vary quite a bit. But the only way that any point can be addressed to any degree is to know there is a problem.

Sometimes, in a minor case, somebody being told something is not ok is enough, but in many cases that is not the case either.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 234



    Quote:
    Between true sexual abuse and harassment, and just women getting offended or feeling uncomfortable.


This.


    Quote:
    There is true sexual harassment out there (And men can get harassed as well.), but sometimes it can be very vague. Pretty much anyone can be brought up or accused.


The current climate seems to be to reward people who PLAY the victim and I think this approach starts a 'guilty till proven innocent' mentality, where reputations get irrevocably tarnished in the 'court of publicity'.


    Quote:
    I remember there was a time at my old job where the bus driver came in and said something like "Women can't cook , or cook as well as men.". A guy was cooking at that time, I think that he might have been joking, but then a female worker heard it, got offended, and accused him of sexual harassment.


I often wonder if people like this are living in cloud cuckoo land. Any workplace I've been in and that just would have been laughed off.


    Quote:
    So sometimes (Or maybe even more than sometimes.) that happens, and sometimes it's just a case of women being offended or made uncomfortable by simple guy talk or male behavior.


I think once in my working life I've been in a situation where I thought a woman might have been slightly uncomfortable at certain things being said (by others at the work lunch table) and the guy in question (who was a complete idiot) did get the sack a few months later (albeit over something else entirely...and more serious).

But at worst what he did (at the table) was just stupid and worthy of a reprimand/warning, not the sack and/or sexual harassment.


    Quote:
    Heck, sometimes even harmless flirting can fall into this.


Often seems to be if the woman is attracted to the man 'chatting her up' then its harmless flirting, if she isn't then its potentially sexual harassment.


    Quote:
    So, I think that this can be a good thing if it gets us to really narrow this down, and at the same time, weed out the true harassers.


Agreed, otherwise society will get to the point where men will simply stop talking to women altogether (something I could see a lot of hard line Feminists supporting).




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 234



    Quote:
    I understand the distinction you are trying to make with severity. If it makes somebody uncomfortable than it is a problem. The legal standard for sexual harassment in particularly does not cover all forms of harassment.


I think the problem starts when you put feelings above facts.

If we use the previous example, the woman raised a sexual harassment case against a man for saying (either jokingly or not?) "Men are better cooks than women." (another example that the left has no sense of humour but I digress).

Now either that woman has severe mentally fragile anxiety (in which case she is not fit to be out working in the 'real world' ) or she's a con artist playing the victim to get attention and/or money for herself or get that man fired.

I know I wouldn't want to work or talk to such a woman, because basically ANYTHING could trigger her. In fact even NOT talking to her might trigger her.

So when we allow feelings (which cannot be verified as true or not) to determine ACTUAL crime/harassment you run the twin problems that:

1. Mentally unstable people (or people suffering from temporary mental instability...like severe depression) could be triggered by literally ANYTHING being said.
2. Insidious or deceitful people are going to willfully use that for their gain and others loss.


    Quote:
    For instance, I think the "guy talk" out is lazy and lacks context. Where is it being discussed and what is being discussed. If it is at work, than it is not ok. Even if it does not rise to the level of sexual harassment it is unprofessional and not ok. It creates a poor environment that can lead to worse and worse things. That is a fact.


Partially agree with this. But if you totally outlaw 'Banter' at work then the staff become little more than automatons also a bit of banter helps prepare people for the 'real world'. If you mollycoddle people too much they just become big (cry)babies who get triggered by everything (case in point - micro-aggressions )


    Quote:
    Harmless flirting is not always harmless. I think that gets lost on some men and women. Depending on the context of the situation. Even at a bar. It is probably ok to go up to somebody and flirt and ask them out. But if they tell you to get lost than pushing the issue and getting more and more raunchy is not ok. By no stretch. And in a professional environment it is hard to imagine a situation where it is ok.


Again, partially agree. I think its okay to ask someone out anywhere (I mean most people meet their partner AT work) and if you outlaw this you virtually destroy western civilization (which is of course the goal of some Far Leftists).

But I agree once the other person says 'no' or 'not interested' anything after that CAN be the beginning of sexual harassment. I say 'can', because it still might just be a harmless conversation or chatting-up if done in a friendly manner.


    Quote:
    With some of these ideas it may seem to be splitting hairs, but it is better than trying to make non existent distinctions at times. People in power abuse things all of the time in all manner of ways.


I agree with this but don't see any immediate solution. Some people will always abuse their power/wealth just as some will always suck up to people with power/wealth.


    Quote:
    A man, and more often woman, has a right to be without unwanted advances. And in many of these cases these are serial problems. And often saying get lost is not enough to drive off such people. Pending the example it may not be illegal but it is still not ok.


I think the key here (as regards conversation) is whether its a serial problem or not because otherwise I doubt its grounds for action. In the workplace I'd go along with the following guidelines.

1. Person A 'feels' harrassed, reports Person B to management. Management go over the details and if its justified* warn Person B to stop whatever they were doing.
2. Second Offence (with verifiable witnesses and/or camera evidence), Person B is suspended.
3. Third offence (again with evidence), Person B is dismissed/sacked from work.

*If its 'he said men are better cooks than women' then frankly I would give the warning to Person A instead.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,604



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I understand the distinction you are trying to make with severity. If it makes somebody uncomfortable than it is a problem. The legal standard for sexual harassment in particularly does not cover all forms of harassment.



    Quote:
    I think the problem starts when you put feelings above facts.


I am not sure what you are getting at here honestly. The definition of harassment always has an emotional context. There is no getting around that point.

What reaches the level of illegal and what qualifies as harrasment are not the same at all. Legal definitions are not THE end all be all.


    Quote:
    If we use the previous example, the woman raised a sexual harassment case against a man for saying (either jokingly or not?) "Men are better cooks than women." (another example that the left has no sense of humour but I digress).


I am not sure the issue with the woman have a problem with that. It is sexist.


    Quote:
    Now either that woman has severe mentally fragile anxiety (in which case she is not fit to be out working in the 'real world' ) or she's a con artist playing the victim to get attention and/or money for herself or get that man fired.


How was the comment in the example phrased? I am just saying that you are coming at this entirely from the angle that it is the fault of the person being offended. Meaning, taking this to the extreme (as you are) that we must be differential to the most offensive person. Until something becomes illegal.


    Quote:
    I know I wouldn't want to work or talk to such a woman, because basically ANYTHING could trigger her. In fact even NOT talking to her might trigger her.


Or you could just not be a jerk and say things that would be offensive.


    Quote:
    So when we allow feelings (which cannot be verified as true or not) to determine ACTUAL crime/harassment you run the twin problems that:


The example you gave was a poor one. He made the comment. That is a fact.

What if a guy walked by her in the haul and pulled a move of touching her breast and then blowing ito ff as an accident. She was offended, who cares? She should get a grip?

At one point would your scenario or logic make it not ok. The whole thing is merky but act professionally and be done with it. Do the job first and foremost in the work place.

People are mostly offended by stuff that is offensive. There is a counter movement by some that people are just offended by everything. Pick a group and they are offended by something but what is the reason for it. It is rarely that they are "snowflakes".

Individuals have varying tolerances to comments, but that still would only put the problem with them in a small minority. Actual harassment that goes unreported probably lacks what you would likely consider facts. Does not mean that it did not happen or was not worthy of being offended by.


    Quote:
    1. Mentally unstable people (or people suffering from temporary mental instability...like severe depression) could be triggered by literally ANYTHING being said.
    2. Insidious or deceitful people are going to willfully use that for their gain and others loss.


So, now mentally ill people should get out of the work force? I am just confused as to what would rise to harassment in your situation. And should everybody just get out of the work force except those who enjoy crude humor?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      For instance, I think the "guy talk" out is lazy and lacks context. Where is it being discussed and what is being discussed. If it is at work, than it is not ok. Even if it does not rise to the level of sexual harassment it is unprofessional and not ok. It creates a poor environment that can lead to worse and worse things. That is a fact.



    Quote:
    Partially agree with this. But if you totally outlaw 'Banter' at work then the staff become little more than automatons also a bit of banter helps prepare people for the 'real world'. If you mollycoddle people too much they just become big (cry)babies who get triggered by everything (case in point - micro-aggressions )


I am not saying not to banter, but don't be a jerk or unprofessional. There are many examples of a small group having their own sort of internal way of doing things and interacting. In many cases all male. Add a woman and she may be offended by the crude sexual sort of humor. So, the banter is no longer ok, if it ever was.

The whole banter thing is easily adjusted in the respect you are getting at with a simple know your audience and co-workers. It is going to be rare that anybody runs off to HR for something small. And if they do there will not be much done about it if it was only a comment like you implied earlier.

They take things of a sexual nature very seriously in the world. And for good reason. It is and was a big problem.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Harmless flirting is not always harmless. I think that gets lost on some men and women. Depending on the context of the situation. Even at a bar. It is probably ok to go up to somebody and flirt and ask them out. But if they tell you to get lost than pushing the issue and getting more and more raunchy is not ok. By no stretch. And in a professional environment it is hard to imagine a situation where it is ok.



    Quote:
    Again, partially agree. I think its okay to ask someone out anywhere (I mean most people meet their partner AT work) and if you outlaw this you virtually destroy western civilization (which is of course the goal of some Far Leftists).


I do not understand this argument. I did not say anything like it. Do not make a pass at a co-worker in a professional setting. At the end of a day when there is no more work if somebody asks another person out for drinks. That is fine.

If they get a no and then become more and more forceful that is not ok. Asking someone out while working and so on. This may be a very case by case situation, depending on the person, but in many instances the male co-worker not leaving afemale worker alone can be common. The reverse is true too but not heard as often (in my limited exposure).

There is nothing wrong with having relationships, romantic or otherwise, with co-workers. However, one has to respect boundaries and be a decent person.

If you would be married to a co-worker it is not ok to just go make out in the closet either. There are different expectations.


    Quote:
    But I agree once the other person says 'no' or 'not interested' anything after that CAN be the beginning of sexual harassment. I say 'can', because it still might just be a harmless conversation or chatting-up if done in a friendly manner.


I did not say that the asking out was harassment in and of itself. Merely that what one person considers "harmless flirting" is not harmless flirting to another person. This happens even outside of work.

And harassment does not really even require a relationship to occur, outside of work that is.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      With some of these ideas it may seem to be splitting hairs, but it is better than trying to make non existent distinctions at times. People in power abuse things all of the time in all manner of ways.



    Quote:
    I agree with this but don't see any immediate solution. Some people will always abuse their power/wealth just as some will always suck up to people with power/wealth.


Make a culture and situation open to everybody reporting problems that they have. If people are afraid they will not report anything and it goes under the rug.

That is the easiest solution. One can argue it swings too far the other way at times, but however many decades most of those doing the abusing got away with pretty much everything. Bringing things to light and making sure everybody knows where to go wit hthese problems. And a system in place to address these in a reasonable way.

That is a first step that needs to be done and to varying degrees is. At least in most corporate culture. Some do not like it, but it is better than the reverse in most cases.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      A man, and more often woman, has a right to be without unwanted advances. And in many of these cases these are serial problems. And often saying get lost is not enough to drive off such people. Pending the example it may not be illegal but it is still not ok.



    Quote:
    I think the key here (as regards conversation) is whether its a serial problem or not because otherwise I doubt its grounds for action. In the workplace I'd go along with the following guidelines.


One incident could still be harassment. It just may not be that actionable unless it was pretty severe.


    Quote:
    1. Person A 'feels' harrassed, reports Person B to management. Management go over the details and if its justified* warn Person B to stop whatever they were doing.
    2. Second Offence (with verifiable witnesses and/or camera evidence), Person B is suspended.
    3. Third offence (again with evidence), Person B is dismissed/sacked from work.


Maybe, I am not sure one needs that much for a second offense. One could include multiple offenses reported, witness, other evidence and so on.

I could easily imagine scenarios where harassment occurs and it never makes it into step 2 based on your grounds. Repeated complaints alone should be grounds for action.

A suspension may also be too severe depending on the nature of the event. Things should be as proportional as possible. It may be something as simple as separating two people at first (if just minor things that the HR group things are being taken wrong). If complaints would come up with the same person in a different group than more harsh actions would be considered.

A warning is important to start with, there are just probably other sorts of evidence that comes to the same end without needing to be CSI level.

It also would need to be clear that these rules apply to everybody. As one of the things that has made harassment tricky is that people are afraid of people in power. They still will be but with a change of culture and some actions the workplace can be better.

Or really any location. Not every situation is as simple as work.


    Quote:
    *If its 'he said men are better cooks than women' then frankly I would give the warning to Person A instead.







Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 234


I think the problem starts when you put feelings above facts.


    Quote:
    I am not sure what you are getting at here honestly. The definition of harassment always has an emotional context. There is no getting around that point.

    What reaches the level of illegal and what qualifies as harrasment are not the same at all. Legal definitions are not THE end all be all.


It seems to me that in this modern victim culture we are actually incentivizing people to 'feel' harassed over next to nothing.


    Quote:
    If we use the previous example, the woman raised a sexual harassment case against a man for saying (either jokingly or not?) "Men are better cooks than women." (another example that the left has no sense of humour but I digress).



    Quote:
    I am not sure the issue with the woman have a problem with that. It is sexist.


So YOU think she had a point in raising a sexual harassment case against the man for saying "Men are better cooks than women"? I mean seriously?


    Quote:
    Now either that woman has severe mentally fragile anxiety (in which case she is not fit to be out working in the 'real world' ) or she's a con artist playing the victim to get attention and/or money for herself or get that man fired.



    Quote:
    How was the comment in the example phrased? I am just saying that you are coming at this entirely from the angle that it is the fault of the person being offended. Meaning, taking this to the extreme (as you are) that we must be differential to the most offensive person. Until something becomes illegal.


Any sort of unwelcomed* personal abuse (or physical abuse) should be reported.

*By unwelcomed I mean someone not part of an in-group not accustomed to its banter.

But in my experience anyone with such a thin skin (as the example we have discussed) or zero sense of humour will just get ostracized by the rest pretty quickly. They might be civil and professional, but they won't start or engage in conversation with them.


    Quote:
    I know I wouldn't want to work or talk to such a woman, because basically ANYTHING could trigger her. In fact even NOT talking to her might trigger her.



    Quote:
    Or you could just not be a jerk and say things that would be offensive.


She's a ticking timebomb ready to sue for harassment over anything why on Earth would anyone risk starting a conversation with her?


    Quote:
    So when we allow feelings (which cannot be verified as true or not) to determine ACTUAL crime/harassment you run the twin problems that:



    Quote:
    The example you gave was a poor one. He made the comment. That is a fact.


Exactly and anyone who got offended at that is so mentally fragile they shouldn't be IN work or around people. The same kind of morons upset by micro-aggressions and running to 'safe spaces'...people totally unprepared for the real world.


    Quote:
    What if a guy walked by her in the haul and pulled a move of touching her breast and then blowing ito ff as an accident. She was offended, who cares? She should get a grip?


The first question is was it an accident or not and how would she know for certain?

But that's a difficult situation to be in, especially if its outside the work environment.


    Quote:
    At one point would your scenario or logic make it not ok. The whole thing is merky but act professionally and be done with it. Do the job first and foremost in the work place.


I'd present the facts to management (at the workplace) and start from there. I agree with you about acting professionally.


    Quote:
    People are mostly offended by stuff that is offensive. There is a counter movement by some that people are just offended by everything. Pick a group and they are offended by something but what is the reason for it. It is rarely that they are "snowflakes".


I agree, but again in my experience if you are THAT thin-skinned or humourless and you start calling harassment over comments like "Men are better cooks than women" no one will want to talk to you.


    Quote:
    Individuals have varying tolerances to comments, but that still would only put the problem with them in a small minority. Actual harassment that goes unreported probably lacks what you would likely consider facts. Does not mean that it did not happen or was not worthy of being offended by.


If its in the workplace then report it to management. If its outside the workplace then its probably a more difficult proceedure.


    Quote:
    So, now mentally ill people should get out of the work force?


If someone saying "Men are better cooks than women" triggers another person into reporting them for sexual harassment then (IMHO) that person doesn't have the mental stability to work in the real world.


    Quote:
    I am just confused as to what would rise to harassment in your situation. And should everybody just get out of the work force except those who enjoy crude humor?


I've witnessed (what I considered) harassment and as a rule of thumb I'd start with personal abuse (against those not in the immediate 'group').


    Quote:
    I am not saying not to banter, but don't be a jerk or unprofessional. There are many examples of a small group having their own sort of internal way of doing things and interacting. In many cases all male. Add a woman and she may be offended by the crude sexual sort of humor. So, the banter is no longer ok, if it ever was.


Totally agreed. In my (part time) workplace there is an effort to bring men and women (in the lunch room) together and there is a lot of banter from both which can be fun, sometimes cringe-worthy, often crude and occasionally bordering on offensive. The women generally give as good as they get and most everyone pretty much gets on well. A small handful of people either choose not to join in or sit with the main group and one guy in particular is disliked because of past events and takes his breaks at a different time.


    Quote:
    The whole banter thing is easily adjusted in the respect you are getting at with a simple know your audience and co-workers. It is going to be rare that anybody runs off to HR for something small. And if they do there will not be much done about it if it was only a comment like you implied earlier.


Agreed.


    Quote:
    They take things of a sexual nature very seriously in the world. And for good reason. It is and was a big problem.


Sexual or gender specific do you mean?

Men are better cooks than women seems gender specific (and a joke), rather than anything overtly 'sexual'.


    Quote:
    I do not understand this argument. I did not say anything like it. Do not make a pass at a co-worker in a professional setting. At the end of a day when there is no more work if somebody asks another person out for drinks. That is fine.


People are not robots. You can't say no talking during work, or 'you can talk but no flirting or asking the other out'. Conversation is far more natural than that.


    Quote:
    If they get a no and then become more and more forceful that is not ok. Asking someone out while working and so on. This may be a very case by case situation, depending on the person, but in many instances the male co-worker not leaving afemale worker alone can be common. The reverse is true too but not heard as often (in my limited exposure).


I agree. That's a situation to talk to management about.


    Quote:
    There is nothing wrong with having relationships, romantic or otherwise, with co-workers. However, one has to respect boundaries and be a decent person.


True, couldn't agree more.


    Quote:
    If you would be married to a co-worker it is not ok to just go make out in the closet either. There are different expectations.


I agree.


    Quote:
    I did not say that the asking out was harassment in and of itself. Merely that what one person considers "harmless flirting" is not harmless flirting to another person. This happens even outside of work.


Agreed. I think it often needs dealt with on a case by case basis because it can be so specific to the people involved.


    Quote:
    And harassment does not really even require a relationship to occur, outside of work that is.



    Quote:
    Make a culture and situation open to everybody reporting problems that they have. If people are afraid they will not report anything and it goes under the rug.


Absolutely but at the same time people should understand how the real world works and in many cases college today is not preparing people for that with the likes of micro-aggressions and safe spaces.


    Quote:
    That is the easiest solution. One can argue it swings too far the other way at times, but however many decades most of those doing the abusing got away with pretty much everything. Bringing things to light and making sure everybody knows where to go wit hthese problems. And a system in place to address these in a reasonable way.


Well its interesting to note that in the Weinstein case that multiple women (many of whom are rich, successful and millionaires) are only reporting this now, 10, 20 or even 30 years after the fact. Those women should have felt safe to report him but didn't (perhaps Hollywood peer pressure or concern over their careers and so forth).

At the same time we now have the a lot of ludicrous claims - I saw one where Adam Sandler touched a woman's knee while on a tv show and she recently played the victim card on that which seemed a bit silly.


    Quote:
    That is a first step that needs to be done and to varying degrees is. At least in most corporate culture. Some do not like it, but it is better than the reverse in most cases.



    Quote:
    One incident could still be harassment. It just may not be that actionable unless it was pretty severe.


True but if its purely verbal harassment I think its more worthy of a warning first time around.


    Quote:
    Maybe, I am not sure one needs that much for a second offense. One could include multiple offenses reported, witness, other evidence and so on.


I'm thinking more in terms of verbal abuse rather than anything physical. With the latter I could see an automatic suspension and or dismissal (if proven)...possibly even criminal charges depending on the severity of it.


    Quote:
    I could easily imagine scenarios where harassment occurs and it never makes it into step 2 based on your grounds. Repeated complaints alone should be grounds for action.



    Quote:
    A suspension may also be too severe depending on the nature of the event. Things should be as proportional as possible. It may be something as simple as separating two people at first (if just minor things that the HR group things are being taken wrong). If complaints would come up with the same person in a different group than more harsh actions would be considered.


Agreed.


    Quote:
    A warning is important to start with, there are just probably other sorts of evidence that comes to the same end without needing to be CSI level.


True.


    Quote:
    It also would need to be clear that these rules apply to everybody. As one of the things that has made harassment tricky is that people are afraid of people in power. They still will be but with a change of culture and some actions the workplace can be better.


I saw a case a few weeks ago where a man on holiday (in Dubai I think) was jailed for 3 months because he accidentally touched another man's hip (in the bar) as he was trying to stop himself spilling a drink.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brit-who-touched-mans-hip-11388303


    Quote:
    Or really any location. Not every situation is as simple as work.



    Quote:
    *If its 'he said men are better cooks than women' then frankly I would give the warning to Person A instead.


She would have been (at worst) laughed at or at best (told to get over it) based on my experiences.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2018 Powermad Software