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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300


I think we have pretty much finished the conversation on the Thor boards but decided to post here just to wrap up any loose ends or questions either of us have. If you want to continue any from the second thread there just fold them in here (it will probably get locked soon as well).


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    Good to know, but 60 million Americans are still ugly human beings in your opinion...right?



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    I believe in redemption.


So if any Republican changes to the (Far) Left they can be forgiven in your eyes.


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    I judge people by what they do, what they say, who they support, etc. It's called personal responsibility.


...and if they support anyone with political viewpoints you oppose they are bad people because only you can be right.


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    I'd like to hope so, but its certainly a larger fraction than any subsection of Trump supporters committing violence.



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    It's actually white-right-wing terrorism that is on the rise in America.


That was always going to happen after the violence perpetrated by the Far Left Antifa and BLM recently.

Both sides of extremism play at being moral arbiters...something you seem to like to do yourself.


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    Of course because its a hot button topic. A recent poll showed 55% of white Americans feel discriminated against.



    Quote:
    Against by whom?


http://time.com/4996106/discrimination-white-people-survey-poll/


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    For me though, when various BLM leaders are tweeting stuff about putting white people in concentration camps



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    Total bullsh-t that you just made up.


https://occamsrazormag.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/extreme-anti-white-tweets-from-blacklivesmatter-movement/

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/04/05/black-lives-matter-co-founder-tweets-about-killing-men-and-white-folks/


    Quote:
    Certainly Mohammad Ali made several obvious racist comments in his day but I don't remember reading anything negative about MLK...?



    Quote:
    Have you looked?


Yes and I still didn't find anything. So feel free to post links.

I like how the onus is on me to research evidence for YOUR arguments...a trick you try to pull below with the Jane Foster character.


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    Probably because he has the support of the Republicans in that area (likely a high percentage of Evangelical Christians). People entitled to their opinion, even if I disagree with it.



    Quote:
    The ends justify the means! You're not making a convincing case for Republican or conservative values.


I wouldn't jail anyone for their opinions or thoughts, even if I disagreed with those thoughts.


    Quote:
    Deflection tactic, admirable, bring up the 'not relevant to this discussion' Punchometer.



    Quote:
    It's very relevant to you, though.


Pure deflection tactic at no point relevant to our discussion. Either your debating has gone downhill lately or you are getting all emotionally upset over our political differences. Have you tried 'Screaming at the sky' recently?


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    If you want to make a case for Jane being worthy, the material and evidence is there in spades.


The short answer being she ISN'T worthy then.

But that's what happens when you put writers who are anathema to characters on these books; a trick the Left loves to pull on any institutions it that don't already kowtow to it.

...as with (Far Left) Nick Spencer on a book about Patriotism (Captain America)...turns him into a literal Nazi.

...as with (Far Left Feminist Atheist) Jason Aaron on a book about a (Male God) Hero...totally emasculates the male hero, handicaps him, ridicules him (and his father), turns him into a simpering, whiny emo bitch, while pushing a Mary Sue, better at everything female replacement who is given EVERYTHING but still finds time to play the victim.


    Quote:
    If you want to actively hate on Jane, for whatever reason, then I guess that's entirely on you and what you want to achieve in life.


I certainly hate how Aaron has forced his politics into the character of Jane and the title of Thor (and I refuse to support that with my money). Politics aside he's a decent enough writer (excusing the modern era decompressed style I don't think works for the comics format).

...as opposed to you hating on 60 million Americans, 15 million French and goodness knows how many other people all over the world.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    So if any Republican changes to the (Far) Left they can be forgiven in your eyes.


As long as you support filth, you are filth. You can point to periods in history where humanity has utterly failed to do the right thing. Should we let them off the hook because they were large in number? How many Germans supported the Nazis?

The Milgram experiment demonstrated that humans are capable of evil with gentle nudging from an authority figure, and was specifically meant to address how the German people were able to support unspeakable atrocities in the name of nationalism.

Bottom line is if you support a human who lies, cheats, steals, spews vile racist rhetoric and worse -- then you are what you are. Sorry to break it to you.


    Quote:
    ...and if they support anyone with political viewpoints you oppose they are bad people because only you can be right.


See above.


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    Both sides of extremism play at being moral arbiters...something you seem to like to do yourself.


The bare minimum of human decency involves denouncing Trump. That's my opinion, of course.


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      Quote:
      For me though, when various BLM leaders are tweeting stuff about putting white people in concentration camps

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Total bullsh-t that you just made up.


The tweets you posted are from anonymous people that I've never heard of. Negradomas? Please.


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    Yes and I still didn't find anything. So feel free to post links.


http://www.thekingcenter.org/archive/document/race-hate-and-divisiveness

King was not a beloved person at the time, not by many whites. I bet you won't even look at the link.


    Quote:
    I like how the onus is on me to research evidence for YOUR arguments...a trick you try to pull below with the Jane Foster character.


I present you with evidence and you say because Aaron hadn't referenced it that its totally irrelevant.


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    The short answer being she ISN'T worthy then.


Apparently she is. And a better case can be made for Jane than Eric Masterson. Since you don't write for Marvel, you don't have a say.


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    ...as opposed to you hating on 60 million Americans, 15 million French and goodness knows how many other people all over the world.


Yes, people that support Marine Le Pen -- a bonafide neo-fascist -- are real gems of humanity.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    So if any Republican changes to the (Far) Left they can be forgiven in your eyes.



    Quote:
    As long as you support filth, you are filth.


...and Moral Arbiter Norvell determines who IS and IS NOT Filth, because only he has the truth.


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    You can point to periods in history where humanity has utterly failed to do the right thing. Should we let them off the hook because they were large in number? How many Germans supported the Nazis?


Since you'll look to turn this around to Trump inevitably; exactly what 'Evil' has he committed?

- Do you mean the Evil of cutting down ILLEGAL immigration...something Obama was already doing.
- Do you mean the Evil of extreme vetting of migrants from Islamic countries...again you also admitted vetting was already extreme under Obama (and indeed it was Obama's list of especially problematic countries he blocked)
- Was it the Evil of Birtherism, how dare he question Obama's questionable birthplace...but lets sweep under the rug it was HILLARY who started those rumours.

Exactly what is all the evil stuff he has done because it just looks like the Left is throwing a super-meg-overdrive tantrum about absolutely nothing.


    Quote:
    The Milgram experiment demonstrated that humans are capable of evil with gentle nudging from an authority figure, and was specifically meant to address how the German people were able to support unspeakable atrocities in the name of nationalism.


...and Communists the world over did the same.

The threat is extremism; on both sides, and on both sides extremists are simply a vocal fringe minority (in the US at least).

If you can only see extremists on one side; that's because you are already an extremist on the other.

Now I do actually agree with you vis-a-vis the Milgram Experiment. But no Authority figure here (whether Trump, Obama, Le Pen or otherwise) is calling for unspeakable atrocities or persecution of anyone upholding the law.


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    Bottom line is if you support a human who lies, cheats, steals, spews vile racist rhetoric and worse -- then you are what you are. Sorry to break it to you.


Lies...no more than any other politician.
Cheats/Steals...within the confines of the law...so no more than any other businessman or woman.

...and the racist stuff is totally made up by you to demonize him and his supporters.

...and worse (again even more scaremongering totally devoid of facts or evidence).


    Quote:
    Both sides of extremism play at being moral arbiters...something you seem to like to do yourself.



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    The bare minimum of human decency involves denouncing Trump. That's my opinion, of course.


That's your opinion (and you are entitled to it), but its one founded on pure emotional grievance rather than anything substantial like facts.


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    The tweets you posted are from anonymous people that I've never heard of. Negradomas? Please.


Of course they are. Hand wave it away because you haven't heard of them even though the second link specifically had a tweet from one of the co-founders of BLM. Ignorance is bliss.


    Quote:
    Yes and I still didn't find anything. So feel free to post links.



    Quote:
    http://www.thekingcenter.org/archive/document/race-hate-and-divisiveness



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    King was not a beloved person at the time, not by many whites. I bet you won't even look at the link.


I just read it but I don't see what your point is?

- That some peaceful protests spilled over into violence or riots?
- That the (then) establishment didn't love him at the time?

I don't see how any of that stems from anything MLK said as being racist, I haven't seen a single racist quote from the man.


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      Quote:
      I like how the onus is on me to research evidence for YOUR arguments...a trick you try to pull below with the Jane Foster character.



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    I present you with evidence and you say because Aaron hadn't referenced it that its totally irrelevant.


That's because it wasn't evidence, at no point is it referenced that Jane still has all Sif's memories and skills.


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    The short answer being she ISN'T worthy then.



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    Apparently she is.


Well she is under Aaron; but I meant she isn't justifiably worthy, just as Thor isn't justifiably unworthy. But Aaron is the writer and he can get away with whatever he wants; doesn't mean I have to like it or buy it though.


    Quote:
    And a better case can be made for Jane than Eric Masterson.


No there isn't.

But even going under the assumption Jane is worthy, Masterson's run was more palatable for two main reasons:

1. He wasn't a Gary Sue, he acknowledged himself as an inferior Thor, he had faults, he made mistakes he was a well rounded character.
2. De Falco didn't utterly disrespect and emasculate the real Thor while Masterson held the hammer.

Had Aaron given Jane more depth and NOT ridiculed and rubbished Thor along the way I would have been happy enough to keep buying. But his politics simply wouldn't allow that.


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    Since you don't write for Marvel, you don't have a say.


The only say I have is with my money. Bye bye Axel Alonso. \:\)


    Quote:
    ...as opposed to you hating on 60 million Americans, 15 million French and goodness knows how many other people all over the world.



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    Yes, people that support Marine Le Pen -- a bonafide neo-fascist -- are real gems of humanity.


Who does she want to kill? I mean if she's so Evil (like everyone to the right of Karl Marx apparently) what atrocities is she calling for?




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:

      Quote:
      So if any Republican changes to the (Far) Left they can be forgiven in your eyes.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        As long as you support filth, you are filth.



    Quote:
    ...and Moral Arbiter Norvell determines who IS and IS NOT Filth, because only he has the truth.


I'm stating my opinion, not stating yours.


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    Since you'll look to turn this around to Trump inevitably; exactly what 'Evil' has he committed?


Well if we define evil as falling below the minimum standards of decency -- such as cheating, lying, stealing (as the Bible would define evil) -- then Trump qualifies as an evil human being. If you define evil more abstractly, like preying upon bigotries and using ethnic/racial scapegoats for his 'supporters' to focus their anger on (aka demagoguery), then he also qualifies there. If you define evil as standing silent in the face of evil behavior (thus empowering evil) -- or further, lavishing praise on the likes of Putin and Deuterte for their authoritarian and murderous actions, then Trump would qualify as evil. Evil could also be (even more abstractly) defined as trying to undermine the qualities of truth, such as when Trump and his minions attack the media for legitimate reporting. Lying to avoid accountability has been defined for many years -- across the political spectrum -- as being a quality of a bad person.

You set the bar for evil at Hitler level or KKK level (barely). I set it lower. I draw my line in the sand at the simplest, barest minimum of human decency. If you can't cross that minimum threshold, you are not a good person. And you sure as hell shouldn't be in a position of leadership. This is simply something we differ on.


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    - Do you mean the Evil of cutting down ILLEGAL immigration...something Obama was already doing.


Calling them rapists, calling all Muslims anti-American.


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    Do you mean the Evil of extreme vetting of migrants from Islamic countries...again you also admitted vetting was already extreme under Obama (and indeed it was Obama's list of especially problematic countries he blocked)


Curiously, Trump leaves out the true source of extremism in the Islamic ideology -- Saudi Arabia. I wonder why. Notice how none of the attacks would have been covered be his 'travel ban'? Curious indeed.


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    Was it the Evil of Birtherism, how dare he question Obama's questionable birthplace...but lets sweep under the rug it was HILLARY who started those rumours.


It wasn't Hillary whatsoever. But I like how you obfuscate the truth by suggesting that one rogue operative who was immediately denounced is equal to running a deliberate and targeted campaign of lies for 6 years. This is what we call a false equivalency. Look it up.


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    ...and Communists the world over did the same.


I'm not a Communist. Maybe you should adjust your aim.


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    Now I do actually agree with you vis-a-vis the Milgram Experiment. But no Authority figure here (whether Trump, Obama, Le Pen or otherwise) is calling for unspeakable atrocities or persecution of anyone upholding the law.


The whole point of neo-fascism is to repackage fascism as legitimate ideology.


    Quote:
    ...and the racist stuff is totally made up by you to demonize him and his supporters.


Ethnic bigotry also qualifies as racism.


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    Of course they are. Hand wave it away because you haven't heard of them even though the second link specifically had a tweet from one of the co-founders of BLM. Ignorance is bliss.


I don't consider Negradamos a viable leader of BLM. And anyone who suggests that white people should be put in interment camps would be denounced as crazy, unless they were selling an agenda against BLM.


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    I just read it but I don't see what your point is?


That you didn't look for opinion of MLK at the time, and that he wasn't considered the hero then as he is in retrospect.


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    I don't see how any of that stems from anything MLK said as being racist, I haven't seen a single racist quote from the man.


I never made that claim. I said that he was seen as a threat and proponent of violence. You aim is off with regard to my statements.


    Quote:
    That's because it wasn't evidence, at no point is it referenced that Jane still has all Sif's memories and skills.


List the qualities of worthiness, that have never been defined by any writer. Go ahead.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    ...and Moral Arbiter Norvell determines who IS and IS NOT Filth, because only he has the truth.



    Quote:
    I'm stating my opinion, not stating yours.


That's true, but its an opinion that demonizes millions of people simply for having different politics.


    Quote:
    Since you'll look to turn this around to Trump inevitably; exactly what 'Evil' has he committed?



    Quote:
    Well if we define evil as falling below the minimum standards of decency -- such as cheating, lying, stealing (as the Bible would define evil) -- then Trump qualifies as an evil human being. If you define evil more abstractly, like preying upon bigotries and using ethnic/racial scapegoats for his 'supporters' to focus their anger on (aka demagoguery), then he also qualifies there. If you define evil as standing silent in the face of evil behavior (thus empowering evil) -- or further, lavishing praise on the likes of Putin and Deuterte for their authoritarian and murderous actions, then Trump would qualify as evil. Evil could also be (even more abstractly) defined as trying to undermine the qualities of truth, such as when Trump and his minions attack the media for legitimate reporting. Lying to avoid accountability has been defined for many years -- across the political spectrum -- as being a quality of a bad person.


So...

1. NO actual crimes
2. Some manipulation within the law (for business purposes)
3. Common sense dressed up by the Left as ethnic/racial scapegoating
4. Demagoguery...something every single politician is 'guilty' of.
5. Standing silent in the face of evil*; I'll presume a reference to Charlottesville where he DID condemn the violence (on all sides and additionally every specific group).
6. Praising Putin/Deuterte**; strong leaders in very harsh countries. But lets not pretend ALL governments don't engage in illegal activities and murder behind the scenes to protect their own interests...CIA anyone?
7. Calling out Fake News for exactly what it is. Fake. Too many examples of this to even know where to begin.

*pot calling the kettle black as regards the Left refusing to condemn BLM violence, Antifa violence and so on.

**while those on the Left have been praising Castro for DECADES so again hypocrisy upon hypocrisy.


    Quote:
    You set the bar for evil at Hitler level or KKK level (barely). I set it lower. I draw my line in the sand at the simplest, barest minimum of human decency. If you can't cross that minimum threshold, you are not a good person. And you sure as hell shouldn't be in a position of leadership. This is simply something we differ on.



    Quote:
    - Do you mean the Evil of cutting down ILLEGAL immigration...something Obama was already doing.



    Quote:
    Calling them rapists,


Calling SOME (of the ILLEGAL immigrants) rapists, thieves, murderers and bringing drugs, while others are good people.

ie. Simply stating the facts.


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    calling all Muslims anti-American.


I think he said "The US is not loved by many Muslims". You could extend that to 'The West' and it still might apply. He has also said "I think Islam hates us" which, going by various passages from the Koran (and other holy scriptures) you could easily make a case for.

Personally I'd rather see and treat people as individuals, but you've consistently called millions of people ugly human beings (because of their politics) so you are being a hypocrite if you call anyone else out for it...aren't you Norvell?


    Quote:
    Do you mean the Evil of extreme vetting of migrants from Islamic countries...again you also admitted vetting was already extreme under Obama (and indeed it was Obama's list of especially problematic countries he blocked)



    Quote:
    Curiously, Trump leaves out the true source of extremism in the Islamic ideology -- Saudi Arabia. I wonder why. Notice how none of the attacks would have been covered be his 'travel ban'? Curious indeed.


I don't think its curious at all (and of course lets not forget the Saudi's are big Clinton donors); I think its to do with power/wealth and influence. If the US shuns/mistreats Saudi Arabia then the great likelihood is that country will take its money elsewhere.

That said, Saudi Arabia looks to be at something of a crossroads right now (current civil affairs notwithstanding) with the influence of Oil (worldwide) lessening year by year.

So the Saudi influence on the global stage is weakening.


    Quote:
    Was it the Evil of Birtherism, how dare he question Obama's questionable birthplace...but lets sweep under the rug it was HILLARY who started those rumours.



    Quote:
    It wasn't Hillary whatsoever. But I like how you obfuscate the truth by suggesting that one rogue operative who was immediately denounced is equal to running a deliberate and targeted campaign of lies for 6 years. This is what we call a false equivalency. Look it up.


So it was 'only' Hillary's Press Secretary...I am sure she knew nothing about it. ;\)


    Quote:
    ...and Communists the world over did the same.



    Quote:
    I'm not a Communist. Maybe you should adjust your aim.


You're saying Nazis are bad (which I agree) but you always conveniently omit extremism on the Left. Maybe you should widen your gaze.


    Quote:
    Now I do actually agree with you vis-a-vis the Milgram Experiment. But no Authority figure here (whether Trump, Obama, Le Pen or otherwise) is calling for unspeakable atrocities or persecution of anyone upholding the law.



    Quote:
    The whole point of neo-fascism is to repackage fascism as legitimate ideology.


From Dictionary.com: In fascism, the people are looked at as a bundle — one body that must be controlled by the government with absolute force. There’s no option to vote, no chance to impeach a leader, and no freedom to stand up against the governing body.

That's not whats going on in the US, France or anywhere in the western world.

But hey, lets look up Totalitarian Dictatorships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_totalitarian_regimes#Left-wing_totalitarian_states

My goodness, what a shock, lets see we have:

Communist Dictatorships
Islamic Dictatorships
Left-Wing Dictatorships

Don't see any Fascist (even though the Nazis were Socialists of course) or Right Wing Dictatorships.

Seems that the Left is actually far more Authoritarian than the Right.


    Quote:
    ...and the racist stuff is totally made up by you to demonize him and his supporters.



    Quote:
    Ethnic bigotry also qualifies as racism.


The 'bigotry' of wanting to cut down on ILLEGAL immigration and terrorism. Sounds terrible.


    Quote:
    I don't consider Negradamos a viable leader of BLM. And anyone who suggests that white people should be put in interment camps would be denounced as crazy, unless they were selling an agenda against BLM.


I agree IT IS CRAZY.


    Quote:
    I just read it but I don't see what your point is?



    Quote:
    That you didn't look for opinion of MLK at the time, and that he wasn't considered the hero then as he is in retrospect.


But he wasn't considered a terrorist and didn't make any racist comments himself.


    Quote:
    I don't see how any of that stems from anything MLK said as being racist, I haven't seen a single racist quote from the man.



    Quote:
    I never made that claim. I said that he was seen as a threat and proponent of violence. You aim is off with regard to my statements.


He was seen as a threat to the establishment yes, and some of his supporters committed violence (nothing he was responsible for though) but he didn't call for any violence or racial hatred of any kind.


    Quote:
    That's because it wasn't evidence, at no point is it referenced that Jane still has all Sif's memories and skills.



    Quote:
    List the qualities of worthiness, that have never been defined by any writer. Go ahead.


A Self sacrificing hero who does not lift the hammer for their own self aggrandizement but to specifically help others.

1. Bill can lift the hammer because he wants it to save his people - not personal power.
2. When Cap lifts it, its to save Thor - not himself.
3. Masterson initially touches it while grabbing Thor's hand in an attempt to save Thor.
4. In Thor: Son of Asgard, Thor is unable to lift the hammer until he needs it to save the kidnapped Sif.

Cancer-stricken mortal Jane Foster is never shown lifting the hammer (WHICH WAS ON THE MOON) and likely must have just been GIVEN the darn thing...like same way she is given everything else without earning it (his name, fighting skill, worthiness etc.).




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    That's true, but its an opinion that demonizes millions of people simply for having different politics.


I don't consider being a bad person -- by any serious metric or standard -- to be ideological disagreement. I can't respect a political argument from someone who sets the bar for leadership so low, so lacking of any ethical value, that it can look the other way while a child-predator is ushered into Congress. But I guess he needs that vote so he can continue his ambition of robbing from the poor to give to the rich.

Understand? You can't convince me to respect your 'ideological viewpoint' on Trump. You arguments hold no sway. They are predicated on your morals, what you believe to be true, which are not the same as mine or what I believe.


    Quote:
    7. Calling out Fake News for exactly what it is. Fake. Too many examples of this to even know where to begin.


You've been fooled. I pity you. Where do get your information? Cite three news sources that you trust. I dare you.


    Quote:
    Calling SOME (of the ILLEGAL immigrants) rapists, thieves, murderers and bringing drugs, while others are good people.


No, he said SOME are good people, but the rest of rapists and murderers. Which is ridiculous on its face. Illegals commit less violent crime than American citizens.


    Quote:
    I think he said "The US is not loved by many Muslims"


No, he said Islam hates America. Thus, all Muslims are anti-American.


    Quote:
    I don't think its curious at all (and of course lets not forget the Saudi's are big Clinton donors); I think its to do with power/wealth and influence. If the US shuns/mistreats Saudi Arabia then the great likelihood is that country will take its money elsewhere.


You keep bringing up the Clintons like I care about the Clintons. Or the Democrats for that matter. I've already schooled you on this assumption. Repeatedly. You haven't been paying attention.


    Quote:
    So the Saudi influence on the global stage is weakening.


Not if Trump has anything to say about it. He supports MBL and his authoritarian power-grab. He tweets about it.


    Quote:
    So it was 'only' Hillary's Press Secretary...I am sure she knew nothing about it. ;\)


It wasn't Clinton's Press Secretary. Spin your lies elsewhere. I'm not a customer.


    Quote:
    ...and Communists the world over did the same.



    Quote:
    You're saying Nazis are bad (which I agree) but you always conveniently omit extremism on the Left. Maybe you should widen your gaze.


No, your attempt to throw spaghetti at the wall doesn't work with me. Take it elsewhere. Communism is a form of authoritarianism, and I've already denounced authoritarian regimes. Too bad the same can't be said for Trump. He lavishes praise on them, and tucks tail when Putin speaks.


    Quote:
    That's not whats going on in the US, France or anywhere in the western world.


Le Pen is heir to her father's ugly anti-Semitic neo-fascism. She was also bankrolled by Putin in the last election. Accept it or don't. I'm not trying to sway your opinion whatsoever.


    Quote:
    Communist Dictatorships
    Islamic Dictatorships
    Left-Wing Dictatorships


And?


    Quote:
    Don't see any Fascist (even though the Nazis were Socialists of course) or Right Wing Dictatorships.


Oh look, historical ignorance on display by Upper Krust. The Nazis redefined Socialism as a ethnic, right-wing NATIONALIST movement. Hence the term 'National Socialism' (or Nazi). I can't believe you brought up the Nazis without actually knowing what their ideology was.

Rule #1 of a debate: Know what the hell you're talking about.


    Quote:
    He was seen as a threat to the establishment yes, and some of his supporters committed violence (nothing he was responsible for though) but he didn't call for any violence or racial hatred of any kind.


I never made this claim -- but instead point to people like you who (as others did with MLK) try to marginalize movements of racial equality by trying to suggest that they are inherently violent or racist. You actually put BLM on par with the neo-Nazis! That's extreme. And ugly.


    Quote:
    A Self sacrificing hero who does not lift the hammer for their own self aggrandizement but to specifically help others.


Where was this stated? Cite the issue number.


    Quote:
    1. Bill can lift the hammer because he wants it to save his people - not personal power.
    2. When Cap lifts it, its to save Thor - not himself.
    3. Masterson initially touches it while grabbing Thor's hand in an attempt to save Thor.
    4. In Thor: Son of Asgard, Thor is unable to lift the hammer until he needs it to save the kidnapped Sif.


You haven't answered my challenge. If you can't -- and you obviously can't -- then stop wasting my time.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,984



    Quote:
    I think we have pretty much finished the conversation on the Thor boards but decided to post here just to wrap up any loose ends or questions either of us have. If you want to continue any from the second thread there just fold them in here (it will probably get locked soon as well).


Here are some loose ends I'd like to address. I am quoting statements from you here, Upper Krust.


    Quote:
    What rights have white citizens in the west got that non-white citizens don't?


In the United States, the right to vote. Now non-white citizens ostensibly have the right to vote but the Republican Party here has done everything in their power to restrict that right for non-white citizens.


https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/Democracy/VRE/Summary_1.png

And clearly minorities are far more mistreated by law enforcement than whites in the U.S. In recent years, there's been a rash of cases in which police officers shot or otherwise killed unarmed blacks, far more per capita than the shooting of unarmed white men. Here is a list of just some of these deaths from 2015 alone:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/nicholasquah/heres-a-timeline-of-unarmed-black-men-killed-by-police-over

In all but 3 of these 16 cases, the officers got off scot free. Compare that to what white racists can get away with - Cliven Bundy, who stated blacks would be better off as slaves, grazes his cattle illegally on Federal land and gets away with it because he goes around with an armed militia. And can you imagine what would have happened if two dozen armed black men took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge like Cliven Bundy's son Ammon and his group of militants did? They certainly wouldn't have been acquitted like Ammon was.

There’s also an extreme imbalance in the incarceration rate in the United States between blacks and whites due to racial profiling:
 
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

Blacks and Hispanics are three times more likely to be searched during a traffic stop than whites. Blacks routinely get 10% longer prison sentences than whites for the same crimes. African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.


    Quote:
    My knowledge of individual US Policies is hardly extensive but if Trump is so far-right (as you seem to think) why was he the first Republican candidate to champion gay rights and wave the LGBT flag at the convention when he addressed the issue?


To court a voter base that he then completely abandoned after the election when he banned transgender troops from serving in the military and endorsed a huge homophobe in Roy Moore.


    Quote:
    There is no overt racism. That's why he had the largest Black and Hispanic support of any Republican in decades (if ever).


I'll tackle your second statement first. It's a lie. In 2016, 8% of blacks gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 11% of blacks gave Bush their vote. In 2016, 29% of Hispanics gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 44% of Hispanics gave Bush their vote. The statistics are here:

https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2004/

https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/groups-voted-2016/

As for "no overt racism," on 6/16/2015, Trump erroneously characterized Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists when immigrants, legal and illegal, commit crimes less frequently than U.S. citizens (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/). Trump said illegal immigration is "absolutely out of control" and there is a flood of illegal immigrants from Mexico when the U.S. actually lost a net 140,000 Mexican immigrants between 2009-2014 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/11737589/Why-Donald-Trump-is-wrong-about-Mexican-immigrants.html, http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/). On 12/7/2015, Trump said he wants to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. Banning people based on their religion is outright discrimination. On MSNBC, Trump would not disavow Japanese internment camps.

On 6/3/2016, Trump said American-born judge Gonzalo Curiel could not be unbiased toward Trump because of Curiel’s Mexican heritage and Trump’s stance against Mexican immigration to which even Trump supporter and House Speaker Paul Ryan said was "the textbook definition of a racist comment."


Trump and his father’s company have a long history of racial discrimination in renting out their properties (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html). When Clinton brought this up in their 9/26/2016 debate, Trump did not deny it. His defense was that “many other companies throughout the country” were sued for the same thing, but he was able to settle “with no admission of guilt.”


In 1989, Trump took out full-page ads in all 4 major NYC newspapers calling for the execution of 1 Hispanic and 4 black youths known as the Central Park Five, who were accused of raping a jogger. Even after DNA evidence exonerated them after years of false imprisonment, Trump still claims they are guilty even though another man has confessed to it and DNA evidence confirmed it. Trump reiterated this claim on 10/7/2016.


    Quote:
    He has all the trappings of a loony Christian Fundamentalist. However, I don't see much (if any) of his beliefs becoming law.


If Trump backs enough lunatics like Roy Moore then what they believe would become law. That’s the whole point of not backing ANY in the first place! I mean, Trump has freakin’ endorsed Roy Moore who has sexually assaulted minors! If Trump endorsed Hitler even though Nazi beliefs wouldn't become law, is that okay? It would be according to your logic here.


    Quote:
    So potentially 60 million ugly human beings in America today according to you.


Sure, out of a population of 325 million, 18% ugly ain't that bad. Anyway, 60 million Americans who would vote for the most crass, indecent, lying, temperamentally unstable, woefully uniformed, inexperienced, and self-interested President of all time who also happens to be a racist and misogynist and callous con man, yes, they are certainly abetting ugliness.


    Quote:
    I think if you actually listened to what Trump is saying rather than just reading and watching hit pieces on him you would see he is trying to heal an America that has been growing more and more divided on racial and political grounds (because of identity politics, political agitators and certain groups) for the past few years...long before he decided to run for office I should add.


This one is really funny! The racist birther is trying to heal America! Outside of the Civil War era, the United States has never been more divided than now. Trump almost entirely plays to his base, which is making everyone more divided, not less. There's not one thing Trump has done to unite people here.


    Quote:
    The world isn't fair because LIFE ISN'T FAIR, its nothing to do with any imaginary Patriarchy. That's just an excuse for people playacting victims to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.


The Patriarchy is imaginary? I suppose it's just a coincidence that the United States has never had a female President or Vice President in its 240-year history? That more than 80% of Congress are men? That 88% of our 50 states have men as governors? That the past two months revealed a score of powerful men in industry and government who have had multiple allegations of sexual harassment or misconduct stemming back decades? That their power deterred their victims from speaking up until now? Nah, that's all imaginary.


    Quote:
    If your famous they let you grab them by the *****...I mean its crass and stupid, but for a private conversation amongst guys (ie. Locker Room talk) THAT's the worst thing they could pin on him"!


No, his brag is not the worst, though until then, that would have been sufficient to sink any U.S. presidential candidate. Sixteen different women alleged sexual harassment against them by Trump. Not one, not two, SIXTEEN. I'm sure you're going to dismiss it, but then you'd have to do the same for Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Roger Ailes, Kevin Spacey, Charlie Rose, and Mark Halperin too, right? You'll probably excuse Roy Moore's pedophilia too. We have recordings of Trump boasting about bursting into Miss America pageant dressing rooms to look at the women undressed and the women attesting to that. Is that inappropriate enough for you? We have video footage of Trump looking at a passing 10-year old and saying that he would be dating her in 10 years. Is that inappropriate? Do those things make you think he's lying about his groping and that all these sexual harassment allegations against him aren’t true? You think all of these women who have given detailed accounts are lying about Trump? Isn't it a bit odd though that you do accept the allegations against Bill Clinton but not Trump?


    Quote:
    By 'corruption' you mean made up nonsense with no evidence.


No evidence, huh? Read this article about how Trump saw "drain the swamp" as merely a marketing gimmick that he had no plans to enact, and now many of his cabinet, who are worth a combined $4 billion, uses government money for lavish trips in which we the tax payers foot the bill.

http://www.newsweek.com/2017/11/10/trump-administration-most-corrupt-history-698935.html

Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price had to resign after reporters revealed that his trips cost over $1 million. Keep in mind this $1 million was spent in only 6 months time! Breaking all kinds of ethics rules, Trump's spokesperson Kellyanne Conway actually went on tv to promote Ivanka Trump merchandise! Trump fetes foreign leaders all the time at his clubs and resorts reaping hundreds of thousands of dollars for himself in the process.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/widespread-corruption-allegations-add-trump-worlds-troubles

From the above piece, "HHS Secretary Tom Price was under investigation, and the scandal led to his resignation. [Interior Secretary Ryan] Zinke is facing more than one investigation. VA Secretary David Shulkin is under investigation. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is under investigation. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley was investigated for violating the Hatch Act. EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt has been caught up in so many controversies, it’s been genuinely difficult to keep up with all of them. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has faced accusations of lying under oath about his interactions with Russian officials during the campaign. And that's just Trump's cabinet."


    Quote:
    I'm still waiting for you to tell me something he has done that isn't
    common sense?


Lying constantly? Threaten nuclear war with North Korea to the point even the Republican Congress is considering legislation to restrict Trump's ability to launch a nuclear strike on his own (because you know he can do it any time he wants to, right)? Hiring a coal lobbyist as deputy administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency?


    Quote:
    If I type in Obama lies or Clinton lies will anything show up? Would I be 'quite staggered' at THEIR dishonesty?


You'd be staggered to find that Trump blatantly lies about 8 times as often of either Clinton or Obama.


    Quote:
    So he's smart at exploiting the system. Sounds like the sort of person I'd want to get rid of those type of loopholes - something Trump has said he wants to do.


Far from getting rid of loopholes, he's trying to make a lot more to enrich himself and other millionaires/billionaires.


    Quote:
    Of course they support him, he has the best interests of Americans at
    heart.


Ha ha ha! Has he conned you. Trump has the best interests of only one person at heart: himself. Under Trump, the government has moved to help the wealthy over the poor at every turn. Trump just tweeted that Wall Street, which was responsible for the Great Recession and whose markets are near all-time highs, has been devastated and needs government help! What a joke.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/business/financial-regulation-rollback-trump.html

Trump has tried to install as new head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau someone who is on record opposing the Bureau’s very existence. Of course Trump did the same thing for the Environmental Protection Agency. So, no, he doesn’t have Americans’ best interests at heart.




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,984



    Quote:
    You keep bringing up the Clintons like I care about the Clintons. Or the Democrats for that matter. I've already schooled you on this assumption. Repeatedly. You haven't been paying attention.


Right, this is a common tactic that John Oliver calls "whataboutism" that is all about trying to deflect the subject onto someone else because the person can't actually defend the original charge:

https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=403


    Quote:

      Quote:
      So it was 'only' Hillary's Press Secretary...I am sure she knew nothing about it. ;\)



    Quote:
    It wasn't Clinton's Press Secretary. Spin your lies elsewhere. I'm not a customer.


Indeed, he is repeating a Trump talking point that has been repeatedly debunked:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

It's another whataboutism that also happens to be a lie. But what about Trump, the true subject here? He was the most prominent birther for over 5 years! What does that say about him that he was promoting this racist lie?




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:

      Quote:
      You keep bringing up the Clintons like I care about the Clintons. Or the Democrats for that matter. I've already schooled you on this assumption. Repeatedly. You haven't been paying attention.



    Quote:
    Right, this is a common tactic that John Oliver calls "whataboutism" that is all about trying to deflect the subject onto someone else because the person can't actually defend the original charge:



    Quote:
    https://youtu.be/1ZAPwfrtAFY?t=403



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        So it was 'only' Hillary's Press Secretary...I am sure she knew nothing about it. ;\)

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It wasn't Clinton's Press Secretary. Spin your lies elsewhere. I'm not a customer.



    Quote:
    Indeed, he is repeating a Trump talking point that has been repeatedly debunked:



    Quote:
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/



    Quote:
    It's another whataboutism that also happens to be a lie. But what about Trump, the true subject here? He was the most prominent birther for over 5 years! What does that say about him that he was promoting this racist lie?


Indeed. And FYI, Trump is now officially a BIRTHER again. What's old is new again.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-birth-certificate-nyt/index.html


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,496


That is true, nut not sure it is shocking. I am sure the guy is every impulse that he has ever shown. Maybe just did not pay attention to them at that point.

I am not entirely sure how somebody can go on ignoring everything he has said before or statements made in the past on any number of topics the way he does. Just too convenient. Not sure if he has some dementia or something. I hate saying that and do not mean it as a joke.

The guy will repeat claims long debunked and many other points as if he was the inventor. And he seriously believes it. I am not sure the explanation for that. That is either what children do or somebody with little concept of the world.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    That is true, nut not sure it is shocking. I am sure the guy is every impulse that he has ever shown. Maybe just did not pay attention to them at that point.



    Quote:
    I am not entirely sure how somebody can go on ignoring everything he has said before or statements made in the past on any number of topics the way he does. Just too convenient. Not sure if he has some dementia or something. I hate saying that and do not mean it as a joke.



    Quote:
    The guy will repeat claims long debunked and many other points as if he was the inventor. And he seriously believes it. I am not sure the explanation for that. That is either what children do or somebody with little concept of the world.


Agreed.

Also, my discussion with Upper Krust involved a group called 'Britain First', which even Upper Krust denounced as a fringe right-wing group.

Well, Trump is currently re-tweeting anti-Muslim videos -- specifically from the LEADER of Britain First. I wonder what mental and verbal gymnastics Upper Krust will use to escape this dilemma.

Trump is putting the POTUS stamp of approval on Britain First.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/29/trump-account-retweets-anti-muslim-videos-of-british-far-right-leader


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,496


To add to your drain the swamp point. He has also placed those with major conflicts of interest at places like HHS, the EPA and so on. Many scientific advisory boards are places were those with the most friendly pro-business views are allowed to serve but anybody else is frowned on.

It is an utter mockery of the system and what it was supposed to be.





Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    To add to your drain the swamp point. He has also placed those with major conflicts of interest at places like HHS, the EPA and so on. Many scientific advisory boards are places were those with the most friendly pro-business views are allowed to serve but anybody else is frowned on.



    Quote:
    It is an utter mockery of the system and what it was supposed to be.


The systematic dismantling of government protections in favor of corporate interests is the most underrated scandal of the Trump Era (is this what his supporters wanted??). Mulvaney is going to do to the CFPB what Scott Pruitt has done to the EPA.

But at this point, we're getting into political ideology. Some people 'legitimately' believe that the free market should be able to loot the environment, and that banks should be able to engage in predatory business practices -- that the consumer and environmental agencies should just be quiet or be dismantled.

Too bad this discussion can't be had, or is greatly overshadowed by Trump's daily antics of racism, bigotry, and bombastic lie-sprees. It's almost as if he's creating a distraction while government is being dismantled.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,496



    Quote:

      Quote:
      To add to your drain the swamp point. He has also placed those with major conflicts of interest at places like HHS, the EPA and so on. Many scientific advisory boards are places were those with the most friendly pro-business views are allowed to serve but anybody else is frowned on.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It is an utter mockery of the system and what it was supposed to be.



    Quote:
    The systematic dismantling of government protections in favor of corporate interests is the most underrated scandal of the Trump Era (is this what his supporters wanted??). Mulvaney is going to do to the CFPB what Scott Pruitt has done to the EPA.



    Quote:
    But at this point, we're getting into political ideology. Some people 'legitimately' believe that the free market should be able to loot the environment, and that banks should be able to engage in predatory business practices -- that the consumer and environmental agencies should just be quiet or be dismantled.


While true, they also have to ignore the past or the scientific data available to do it. If one wants to be ideological when assigning policy to deal with a thing. Fine. It is a different matter when the problem is ignored outright.

Or those with no experience or who are far outside the scientific understanding are involved. Like the toxocologist from Texas picked to lead the EPA scientific advisory group.

He pretty much does not think that any toxin really is a problem for air standardss for various reasons that make little sense. Including people do not go outside much anyway.


    Quote:
    Too bad this discussion can't be had, or is greatly overshadowed by Trump's daily antics of racism, bigotry, and bombastic lie-sprees. It's almost as if he's creating a distraction while government is being dismantled.


I do not think it is that intentional. I mean any conservative republican was going to go after the EPA and various scientific institutions. They just were as a course of ideology at this point.

To say nothing of Trump's sympathies to the anti-vaccine crew and other things. Tom Price was very controversial. As he prescribed to a group of a physicians that cared more about free markets informing medicine than about science and medical research doing it.

The fact that we have to debate that there is or is not a problem is ridiculous.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419


Trump has crossed many lines, but every once in a while he goes too far. During the primaries, he said that the families of terrorists must be targeted for elimination. That's a blatant war crime. That was an enough for me, but the days ticked on and his endorsement of mass murder was largely forgotten.

Now he's president, and while he has engaged in generally abhorrent behavior by any serious metric of ethics and morality, he has generally remained within the boundaries of an ugly human being. Fine.

Then we get to this morning.

Today Trump endorsed Britain First, which are analogous to neo-Nazis in America. These people have been prosecuted for murder and other acts of anti-Muslim violence. These are the worst of the worst. They are a hate group. Trump thinks its appropriate, as the representative of America's credibility, to retweet videos designed to incite hatred and violence against an ethnic group.

The press secretary, Sanders -- paid by America's taxes -- said that it doesn't even matter if the Britain First videos are real or are designed to incite anti-Muslim violence -- that they hammer a message that Trump agrees with.

Trump is now officially and inextricably tied to a white nationalist hate group. And those who support him can no longer look the other way and be taken seriously as people who are not affiliated with this hateful ideology.

The line is drawn here. This far and no further.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    Understand? You can't convince me to respect your 'ideological viewpoint' on Trump. You arguments hold no sway. They are predicated on your morals, what you believe to be true, which are not the same as mine or what I believe.


Oh I totally understand your stance; its the stance of extremists on both sides. You demonize your political opposition* and that justifies shutting down or de-legitimizing their voice and ultimately violence against them because only you can hold the moral high ground.

*Your opinion is that anyone who leans to the right politically is an ugly human being and you have no respect for them.

I don't share that opinion of people on the Left. I think most people (right or left leaning) are not extremists or 'bad' people and just regular people concerned with their families, friends, jobs, security and general way of life.

Weirdly I actually supported some of what Bernie Sanders said when he was campaigning (as regards Health Service and Gun Ownership) but having studied things a bit more I see that they would either be impossible to implement in the US or that implementation would cause more problems than it solved.

But we now live in a culture that rewards the sort of faux-outrage ( He's literally Hitler!" ) and virtue signalling behaviour that; coupled with rampant political correctness has totally divided people along political lines. The shame is you seem to have bought into it, which is why instead of having friendly debates about comics (like yesteryear) we are where we are today. \:'\(


    Quote:
    7. Calling out Fake News for exactly what it is. Fake. Too many examples of this to even know where to begin.



    Quote:
    You've been fooled. I pity you. Where do get your information? Cite three news sources that you trust. I dare you.


We both know that ANY source I cite will have you screaming to the sky.

We also know there is only one mainstream news channel (in the US) that is not Far Left leaning.

But personally its not about news sources 'I trust' though, since I actually watch a variety of news channels (both in the UK and US), its about individual claims and the ridiculous bias from the (mostly left leaning) mainstream media on almost EVERY issue and virtually every single thing Trump does. People see it for what it is and are sick of it.


    Quote:
    No, he said SOME are good people, but the rest of rapists and murderers. Which is ridiculous on its face.


He didn't give a percentage, some probably are good people. I mean ultimately they've all broken the law because they are there illegally but I am sure many just wanted a better life for themselves.


    Quote:
    Illegals commit less violent crime than American citizens.


But STILL more crime than white or Asian American citizens.


    Quote:
    I think he said "The US is not loved by many Muslims"



    Quote:
    No, he said Islam hates America. Thus, all Muslims are anti-American.


If they follow the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam then they are anti-American (since America is primarily a Christian country). But that doesn't factor moderate muslims and lapsed muslims...the latter two groups are also hated by Islamic Fundamentalists.


    Quote:
    You keep bringing up the Clintons like I care about the Clintons. Or the Democrats for that matter. I've already schooled you on this assumption. Repeatedly. You haven't been paying attention.


I keep bringing it up because we both know you wouldn't give a diddly s*** about American politics had the Democrats won.

If you want we can start talking about Trudeau instead though, is he still giving millions of dollars to Islamic Terrorists?


    Quote:
    So the Saudi influence on the global stage is weakening.



    Quote:
    Not if Trump has anything to say about it. He supports MBL and his authoritarian power-grab. He tweets about it.


I think its too early to say whether its a good or bad thing for the country and the Middle East as a whole. Trump's reasoning could be that a strong unified Saudi would be a good ally to have against Iran.


    Quote:
    No, your attempt to throw spaghetti at the wall doesn't work with me. Take it elsewhere. Communism is a form of authoritarianism, and I've already denounced authoritarian regimes.


According to you Nazis are everywhere but people 'probably' join Antifa for a friendly meet and greet opportunity.

Double standards.


    Quote:
    Too bad the same can't be said for Trump. He lavishes praise on them, and tucks tail when Putin speaks.


What we have seen from the example of Iraq and Libya is that unstable countries need strong leaders to keep things under control.

I certainly don't agree with what Putin does (though again all governments break the law to serve their own ends and its hypocritical to suggest otherwise) but like Saddam in Iraq, Russia would probably be worse off without him.


    Quote:
    Communist Dictatorships
    Islamic Dictatorships
    Left-Wing Dictatorships



    Quote:
    And?


The point was to clearly illustrate that left leaning politics are MORE likely to end as Authoritarian Dictatorships.


    Quote:
    Rule #1 of a debate: Know what the hell you're talking about.


I certainly defer to your knowledge on Nazis...then again you see them everywhere and it basically seems to be your specialist subject.


    Quote:
    I never made this claim -- but instead point to people like you who (as others did with MLK) try to marginalize movements of racial equality by trying to suggest that they are inherently violent or racist.


When MLK was making his arguments and speeches not everyone had equal rights. Now they do.


    Quote:
    You actually put BLM on par with the neo-Nazis!


Well they are responsible for more murders and violence since 2013 than any Neo-Nazis in the US.


    Quote:
    That's extreme. And ugly.


I'm putting violent extremists who chant about killing the police, tweet about exterminating white people, resort to violence, rioting and murder on a par with Nazis...yes. There may well be many BLM supporters with good intentions but IMO the organisation itself is built on the faux-moral outrage (and what can we get for it) culture of the day. Yes accidents happen and the Police occasionally shoot the wrong person - but accidents happen and its a dangerous job. Maybe a few police men or women ARE bad people - but there are bad people in all walks of life.

I asked you before and I'll ask again, what rights do white people have in the US that black people don't?

If the only 'right' is that they are unevenly questioned/pulled over/stopped and frisked by Police then don't they realize its because people from their community commit crimes at a vastly higher rate?


    Quote:
    A Self sacrificing hero who does not lift the hammer for their own self aggrandizement but to specifically help others.



    Quote:
    Where was this stated? Cite the issue number.


I'm stating it now. While it was never officially 'stated' in the past it correlates with every previous lifting of the hammer.


    Quote:
    1. Bill can lift the hammer because he wants it to save his people - not personal power.
    2. When Cap lifts it, its to save Thor - not himself.
    3. Masterson initially touches it while grabbing Thor's hand in an attempt to save Thor.
    4. In Thor: Son of Asgard, Thor is unable to lift the hammer until he needs it to save the kidnapped Sif.



    Quote:
    You haven't answered my challenge. If you can't -- and you obviously can't -- then stop wasting my time.


What 'challenge'. For goodness sake get off your high horse Norvell.

The bottom line is this. Marvel under Alonso forced its (far left) politics down people's throats...a lot of people got turned off by it and the sales slumped...as a result Axel Alsonso got the axe.

My challenge to you is to accept it.

People generally don't want preached to in their entertainment (whether its movies, comics, sport etc.)




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,129


I can't even decide which is the more troubling between him re-tweeting the videos to stoke hatred, or his PR person admitting that he used fake news to stoke hatred.



Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    Oh I totally understand your stance; its the stance of extremists on both sides. You demonize your political opposition* and that justifies shutting down or de-legitimizing their voice and ultimately violence against them because only you can hold the moral high ground.


No, I hold a standard for behavior and ethics, while you trip over yourself apologizing for Trump and white nationalists.


    Quote:
    I don't share that opinion of people on the Left.


I don't care what your opinion is of the left. You think Trump is a centrist. Your political compass is broken.


    Quote:
    We both know that ANY source I cite will have you screaming to the sky.


So you'll call out the Washington Post as fake news, but you're afraid to cite an example of a viable news source that you trust. Sounds like you lack the courage of your convictions.


    Quote:
    We also know there is only one mainstream news channel (in the US) that is not Far Left leaning.


You mean Fox News, where people like Hannity spread debunked fringe conspiracy theories? Go ahead and say you watch it. It's okay, you won't lose respect from me. We're at the basement.


    Quote:
    He didn't give a percentage, some probably are good people. I mean ultimately they've all broken the law because they are there illegally but I am sure many just wanted a better life for themselves.


Embarrassing mental gymnastics and apologetics.


    Quote:
    But STILL more crime than white or Asian American citizens.


In 2015, 69.7 percent of all individuals arrested were White, 26.6 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43

Go ahead and make the claim again.


    Quote:
    If they follow the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam then they are anti-American (since America is primarily a Christian country). But that doesn't factor moderate muslims and lapsed muslims...the latter two groups are also hated by Islamic Fundamentalists.


What the hell are you trying to say?


    Quote:
    I keep bringing it up because we both know you wouldn't give a diddly s*** about American politics had the Democrats won.


Get out of here with this made-up nonsense. I've been an observer of American politics since the Iraq War.


    Quote:
    I certainly don't agree with what Putin does (though again all governments break the law to serve their own ends and its hypocritical to suggest otherwise) but like Saddam in Iraq, Russia would probably be worse off without him.


LOL! Once again you've managed to out-do yourself.


    Quote:
    Well they are responsible for more murders and violence since 2013 than any Neo-Nazis in the US.


Statistics, please. Include the source.


    Quote:
    If the only 'right' is that they are unevenly questioned/pulled over/stopped and frisked by Police then don't they realize its because people from their community commit crimes at a vastly higher rate?


If you disproportionately target one group of people, you're going to find a disproportionate amount of crime. Not that there aren't problems in some inner-cities (for a wide variety of reasons), but if you look at drug abuse -- it's about equal between whites and blacks. Blacks are more likely to be arrested and prosecuted, and blacks are more likely to receive a disproportionately harsher sentence for doing the exact same thing.


    Quote:
    I'm stating it now.


So you're guessing and not using actual evidence. Great.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,496


Hey, David Duke backs and supports the tweet. That is all that matters.

The irony, among many, is that the video does not show what the hate group or Trump things it does. Not a Muslim at all.

Sanders had the defense of, does not matter if the video is true. It is still a problem. Seems like logic that allows anything to fly. Which is pretty much what we are seeing.

The logic of nothing stops this train is pretty much what they live by. Evidence to the country be damned. A good lesson in selection bias (most politics are) but this is to the nth degree.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    Trump has crossed many lines, but every once in a while he goes too far. During the primaries, he said that the families of terrorists must be targeted for elimination. That's a blatant war crime. That was an enough for me, but the days ticked on and his endorsement of mass murder was largely forgotten.



    Quote:
    Now he's president, and while he has engaged in generally abhorrent behavior by any serious metric of ethics and morality, he has generally remained within the boundaries of an ugly human being. Fine.



    Quote:
    Then we get to this morning.



    Quote:
    Today Trump endorsed Britain First, which are analogous to neo-Nazis in America. These people have been prosecuted for murder and other acts of anti-Muslim violence. These are the worst of the worst. They are a hate group. Trump thinks its appropriate, as the representative of America's credibility, to retweet videos designed to incite hatred and violence against an ethnic group.



    Quote:
    The press secretary, Sanders -- paid by America's taxes -- said that it doesn't even matter if the Britain First videos are real or are designed to incite anti-Muslim violence -- that they hammer a message that Trump agrees with.



    Quote:
    Trump is now officially and inextricably tied to a white nationalist hate group. And those who support him can no longer look the other way and be taken seriously as people who are not affiliated with this hateful ideology.



    Quote:
    The line is drawn here. This far and no further.


A couple of points.

1. Agreeing with/Retweeting a video is not the same thing as an endorsement of the political party.

2. If a bad person* gives you good advice (and at this point I haven't seen the video so I am only guessing its content is 'beware of whats happening in Europe and don't make the same mistakes' )...its still good advice.

*As I said previously I'd never heard of Britain First until you mentioned it a few days ago (that's how small an organisation they are), so I know very little about them. I DO know that the party they spun out of the B.N.P. who were Far Right and often derided and mocked as Racist. Could just be a re-packaging/rebranding on their part, or an attempt by some to distance themselves from the BNP (likely the former). Either way the bottom line is that (as a political force) no one takes them seriously.

3. Obama DID actually endorse BLM (an organisation whose supporters have murdered people) and had its leaders visit the White House...so again more hypocrisy from the Left.






You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    1. Agreeing with/Retweeting a video is not the same thing as an endorsement of the political party.


Funny that just about everyone else on the planet, even people on the fascist side of the argument, disagree with you. David Duke and Fransen are celebrating their victory.


    Quote:
    2. If a bad person* gives you good advice (and at this point I haven't seen the video so I am only guessing its content is 'beware of whats happening in Europe and don't make the same mistakes' )...its still good advice.


The argument itself is a bad one, and is arguably based on lies in the examples it chose. Islam is not represented by one or two or three examples, but rather by the 1.8 billion people who are largely law-abiding.


    Quote:
    *As I said previously I'd never heard of Britain First until you mentioned it a few days ago (that's how small an organisation they are), so I know very little about them. I DO know that the party they spun out of the B.N.P. who were Far Right and often derided and mocked as Racist. Could just be a re-packaging/rebranding on their part, or an attempt by some to distance themselves from the BNP (likely the former). Either way the bottom line is that (as a political force) no one takes them seriously.


Trump just gave them a megaphone from the White House, with his millions of Twitter followers. It's an official statement from the POTUS that will be in the presidential historical records.


    Quote:
    3. Obama DID actually endorse BLM (an organisation whose supporters have murdered people) and had its leaders visit the White House...so again more hypocrisy from the Left.


FALSE EQUIVALENCY ALERT. 99.9% of BLM activities are peaceful and are aimed towards improving black communities and reforming the justice system. The leaders, which you can look up on Google (and not some right-wing fringe site), do not advocate violence but instead offer positive mentorship for black youths and work towards improving community relationships with the police (aka community policing). There are about six visible leaders of BLM.

DeRay Mckesson
Alicia Garza
Patrisse Cullors
Johnetta Elzie
Marissa Johnson
Tim DeChristopher

Go ahead and find violent rhetoric from them.

Compare that to the fascist movement of Britain First, which raid Mosques and do nothing but intimidate Muslims and immigrants.

And when did Obama endorse BLM, even if we accept your ridiculous argument against BLM? Was it because he wanted a mutual understanding between black activists and the police?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,496



    Quote:

      Quote:
      1. Agreeing with/Retweeting a video is not the same thing as an endorsement of the political party.



    Quote:
    Funny that just about everyone else on the planet, even people on the fascist side of the argument, disagree with you. David Duke and Fransen are celebrating their victory.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      2. If a bad person* gives you good advice (and at this point I haven't seen the video so I am only guessing its content is 'beware of whats happening in Europe and don't make the same mistakes' )...its still good advice.



    Quote:
    The argument itself is a bad one, and is arguably based on lies in the examples it chose. Islam is not represented by one or two or three examples, but rather by the 1.8 billion people who are largely law-abiding.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      *As I said previously I'd never heard of Britain First until you mentioned it a few days ago (that's how small an organisation they are), so I know very little about them. I DO know that the party they spun out of the B.N.P. who were Far Right and often derided and mocked as Racist. Could just be a re-packaging/rebranding on their part, or an attempt by some to distance themselves from the BNP (likely the former). Either way the bottom line is that (as a political force) no one takes them seriously.



    Quote:
    Trump just gave them a megaphone from the White House, with his millions of Twitter followers. It's an official statement from the POTUS that will be in the presidential historical records.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      3. Obama DID actually endorse BLM (an organisation whose supporters have murdered people) and had its leaders visit the White House...so again more hypocrisy from the Left.



    Quote:
    FALSE EQUIVALENCY ALERT. 99.9% of BLM activities are peaceful and are aimed towards improving black communities and reforming the justice system. The leaders, which you can look up on Google (and not some right-wing fringe site), do not advocate violence but instead offer positive mentorship for black youths and work towards improving community relationships with the police (aka community policing). There are about six visible leaders of BLM.



    Quote:
    DeRay Mckesson
    Alicia Garza
    Patrisse Cullors
    Johnetta Elzie
    Marissa Johnson
    Tim DeChristopher



    Quote:
    Go ahead and find violent rhetoric from them.



    Quote:
    Compare that to the fascist movement of Britain First, which raid Mosques and do nothing but intimidate Muslims and immigrants.


And this is hardly the only such group to support him. Basically, pick a sort of hate group. They are pretty happy right now. Pick a way to divide people and Trump has done it or tried to do it. Or is talking about it.


    Quote:
    And when did Obama endorse BLM, even if we accept your ridiculous argument against BLM? Was it because he wanted a mutual understanding between black activists and the police?


What a jerk. Wanting police to play nice with people. It is a complicated issue for sure, but it is one worth talking about as a society. We have one side wanting to talk and the other side wanting to support the police doing whatever they darn well please to do. Because they are the police.

Ironically, many of those are the anti-government action party...






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300


First off, massively busy with stuff right now so apologies to others like zvelf who have replied to other posts of mine in this thread. I'll try and get to them as time allows and I'll sort of prioritise shorter posts in the immediate future at least.


    Quote:
    1. Agreeing with/Retweeting a video is not the same thing as an endorsement of the political party.



    Quote:
    Funny that just about everyone else on the planet, even people on the fascist side of the argument, disagree with you. David Duke and Fransen are celebrating their victory.


Well Fransen is, Trump already condemned Duke (even though he initially retweeted something from him).


    Quote:
    2. If a bad person* gives you good advice (and at this point I haven't seen the video so I am only guessing its content is 'beware of whats happening in Europe and don't make the same mistakes' )...its still good advice.



    Quote:
    The argument itself is a bad one, and is arguably based on lies in the examples it chose. Islam is not represented by one or two or three examples, but rather by the 1.8 billion people who are largely law-abiding.


I have seen video's about the videos and watched the news coverage last night. Apparently two of the three examples were legitimate while one was of a Dutch teenager (presumably non-Muslim) bullying the disabled kid.

I certainly don't agree with Britain First but the whole furore highlights we do have problems here (and massive problems in mainland Europe) because of very high levels of immigration - in particular from Islamic countries where they have values often incompatable with those of the West.

But as I said before, the problem is not immigration, its TOO MUCH immigration. I have studied this in depth and a country that takes in more than 0.1% of its population in immigrants each year starts to experience ever increasing amounts of social problems and strain on its services, housing and schools. That's even before we get to the 'ghetto-izing' of communities that happens when you import too many from one culture and they don't need to integrate into the country and simply form their own isolated communities.


    Quote:
    Trump just gave them a megaphone from the White House, with his millions of Twitter followers. It's an official statement from the POTUS that will be in the presidential historical records.


But (as I have previously heard described of the Left) you are ignoring the Primary issue to focus the faux-outrage on the Secondary issue.

The Primary Issue is that mass immigration (in particular from Islamic Countries) is causing major problems in Europe.

The Secondary Issue is that because the mainstream refuses to address the Primary Issue, people like Britain First gain popularity.

...to use the analogy of comics.

The Primary Issue was that Marvel (under Alonso) were forcing their Left Wing Politics down the throats of the consumers.

The Secondary Issue is people complaining about it.

The Left will do anything to paper over the former while going nuts about the latter.


    Quote:
    FALSE EQUIVALENCY ALERT. 99.9% of BLM activities are peaceful and are aimed towards improving black communities and reforming the justice system. The leaders, which you can look up on Google (and not some right-wing fringe site), do not advocate violence but instead offer positive mentorship for black youths and work towards improving community relationships with the police (aka community policing). There are about six visible leaders of BLM.



    Quote:
    DeRay Mckesson
    Alicia Garza
    Patrisse Cullors
    Johnetta Elzie
    Marissa Johnson
    Tim DeChristopher



    Quote:
    Go ahead and find violent rhetoric from them.


I'll have a look (as time allows). I did see DeRay posting about how War of Planet of the Apes is racist, he probably sees racism everywhere the way you see Nazism everywhere.

I'd certainly like to hope most were well intentioned and peaceful, its difficult when you have a few hundred of them shouting (on multiple occasions and demonstrations) "Pigs in a Blanket, fry Em Like Bacon!"


    Quote:
    Compare that to the fascist movement of Britain First, which raid Mosques and do nothing but intimidate Muslims and immigrants.


Do they Riot in the streets?

I certainly don't agree with them entering mosques to protest (that's disrespectful) but I think its a bit strong to use the word 'raid' (having just googled the details). They entered the mosque to protest that the building had segregated entrances for women. Its stupid, distasteful and disrespectful...but AFAIK they weren't violent.


    Quote:
    And when did Obama endorse BLM, even if we accept your ridiculous argument against BLM? Was it because he wanted a mutual understanding between black activists and the police?


...like when he said if he had a son he'd be exactly like Treyvon Martin?




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    Well Fransen is, Trump already condemned Duke (even though he initially retweeted something from him).


Duke knows that Trump supports his causes. Hence why he's celebrating.


    Quote:
    But (as I have previously heard described of the Left) you are ignoring the Primary issue to focus the faux-outrage on the Secondary issue.


So you're condoning Trump's re-tweet of Britain First. It's perfectly okay with you. Got it. And it's not faux-outrage. The problem is, I have standards, you don't.


    Quote:
    I'll have a look (as time allows). I did see DeRay posting about how War of Planet of the Apes is racist, he probably sees racism everywhere the way you see Nazism everywhere.


Oh please.


    Quote:
    I'd certainly like to hope most were well intentioned and peaceful, its difficult when you have a few hundred of them shouting (on multiple occasions and demonstrations) "Pigs in a Blanket, fry Em Like Bacon!"


It was one time, not multiple times.


    Quote:
    Do they Riot in the streets?


You mean protest? When are black people allowed to protest, by the way? They can't do it peacefully, they can't do it while in the NFL. When can they protest that would be acceptable to you?


    Quote:
    ...like when he said if he had a son he'd be exactly like Treyvon Martin?


No, he said that his son would look like Treyvon. I'm not going to ask if you supported Zimmerman, because I don't ask rhetorical questions. Of course you did.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    Well Fransen is, Trump already condemned Duke (even though he initially retweeted something from him).



    Quote:
    Duke knows that Trump supports his causes. Hence why he's celebrating.


I sincerely doubt Trump supports Duke's reasoning.


    Quote:
    But (as I have previously heard described of the Left) you are ignoring the Primary issue to focus the faux-outrage on the Secondary issue.



    Quote:
    So you're condoning Trump's re-tweet of Britain First. It's perfectly okay with you. Got it.


I think it was stupid, but I don't think he needs to apologise for it because at the end of the day he was trying to highlight a serious problem; a problem that does exist. But as I said before, the Left do not want to acknowledge the primary problem and simply want to focus on the secondary 'problem' of 'people complaining about the primary problem'...and how they are every type of ist and ism.


    Quote:
    And it's not faux-outrage. The problem is, I have standards, you don't.


Its a good example of virtue signalling.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'll have a look (as time allows). I did see DeRay posting about how War of Planet of the Apes is racist, he probably sees racism everywhere the way you see Nazism everywhere.



    Quote:
    Oh please.


I googled his name and that was the first thing that came up.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'd certainly like to hope most were well intentioned and peaceful, its difficult when you have a few hundred of them shouting (on multiple occasions and demonstrations) "Pigs in a Blanket, fry Em Like Bacon!"



    Quote:
    It was one time, not multiple times.


Well (AFAIR) I've seen two videos of (I think) different groups of BLM supporters at different times (one was a video at night and the other was during the day) chanting that slogan.


    Quote:
    Do they Riot in the streets?



    Quote:
    You mean protest?


No I mean riot. I am all in favour of peaceful protest.


    Quote:
    When are black people allowed to protest, by the way?


Anytime they want (if they do it peacefully) and I'll support them if their protest is justified...but still waiting to hear from you what rights they don't have in America...?


    Quote:
    They can't do it peacefully, they can't do it while in the NFL. When can they protest that would be acceptable to you?


I support the NFL players RIGHT to protest. I simply said it was hypocritical to protest a handful of accidental/suspicious deaths by cops (who have extremely dangerous jobs) while NOT protesting the THOUSANDS of deaths each year from gang violence...a gang violence that culture tends to glorify.


    Quote:
    ...like when he said if he had a son he'd be exactly like Treyvon Martin?



    Quote:
    No, he said that his son would look like Treyvon. I'm not going to ask if you supported Zimmerman, because I don't ask rhetorical questions. Of course you did.


Either way Obama 'stirred the pot' on that one.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    Oh I totally understand your stance; its the stance of extremists on both sides. You demonize your political opposition* and that justifies shutting down or de-legitimizing their voice and ultimately violence against them because only you can hold the moral high ground.



    Quote:
    No, I hold a standard for behavior and ethics, while you trip over yourself apologizing for Trump and white nationalists.


I don't remember apologizing for Trump, simply throwing buckets of cold water on your Leftist Scaremongering (which ALWAYS dodges the Primary problem to instead attack the people complaining about it).

...as for the whole 'white nationalist' thing (ie. your 'Soft Nazi' slur) that doesn't stick on me as I have already said I am for (sensible) immigration levels.

But I know that makes me the next Fuhrer when compared to the moral high ground you (believe you) hold.


    Quote:
    We both know that ANY source I cite will have you screaming to the sky.



    Quote:
    So you'll call out the Washington Post as fake news, but you're afraid to cite an example of a viable news source that you trust. Sounds like you lack the courage of your convictions.


I don't remember reading the Washington Post (I may have seen some articles of theirs online, I can't recall) so I doubt I have ever specifically called IT Fake news; maybe it is, I don't know.

I wouldn't say there is ANY news source I 100% trust. I prefer to take each statement individually.


    Quote:
    We also know there is only one mainstream news channel (in the US) that is not Far Left leaning.



    Quote:
    You mean Fox News, where people like Hannity spread debunked fringe conspiracy theories? Go ahead and say you watch it. It's okay, you won't lose respect from me. We're at the basement.


I would say CNN is my 'go to' US news channel simply on the basis that I don't have any others on my cable tv list. However it is clearly 'left leaning' so you have to filter that when watching it.

I do occasionally watch clips from others on youtube from time to time. I have probably watched about 3 clips of Hannity in my lifetime so I am no expert on that reporter or his reports.

I do enjoy Tucker Carlson's interviews though.


    Quote:
    But STILL more crime than white or Asian American citizens.



    Quote:
    In 2015, 69.7 percent of all individuals arrested were White, 26.6 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.



    Quote:
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43



    Quote:
    Go ahead and make the claim again.


I will because your table folds Hispanic people into the White category.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

The Hispanic community commits crimes at about 2:1 vs. Whites.

The Black community commits crimes at about 6:1 vs. Whites


    Quote:
    What the hell are you trying to say?


That Islamic Fundamentalists ARE Anti-American.


    Quote:
    I certainly don't agree with what Putin does (though again all governments break the law to serve their own ends and its hypocritical to suggest otherwise) but like Saddam in Iraq, Russia would probably be worse off without him.



    Quote:
    LOL! Once again you've managed to out-do yourself.


So is Iraq a safer place since Saddam was ousted or not?


    Quote:
    Well they are responsible for more murders and violence since 2013 than any Neo-Nazis in the US.



    Quote:
    Statistics, please. Include the source.


Well how many cops were killed by BLM supporting Snipers over the past few years...


    Quote:
    If the only 'right' is that they are unevenly questioned/pulled over/stopped and frisked by Police then don't they realize its because people from their community commit crimes at a vastly higher rate?



    Quote:
    If you disproportionately target one group of people, you're going to find a disproportionate amount of crime. Not that there aren't problems in some inner-cities (for a wide variety of reasons), but if you look at drug abuse -- it's about equal between whites and blacks. Blacks are more likely to be arrested and prosecuted, and blacks are more likely to receive a disproportionately harsher sentence for doing the exact same thing.


What craziness are you talking about. The black community in the US commits crimes on a far higher rate than any other. THAT'S why they are disproportionately targeted by police; you are putting the cart before the horse.


    Quote:
    I'm stating it now.



    Quote:
    So you're guessing and not using actual evidence. Great.


I used the evidence of EVERY example of characters lifting Mjolnir via worthiness.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows NT 4.0
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    Well (AFAIR) I've seen two videos of (I think) different groups of BLM supporters at different times (one was a video at night and the other was during the day) chanting that slogan.


I have seen one, and it wasn't hundreds of supporters. And a movement should be judged by its intent, not by the worst people following it. You can look up the ideology of BLM and compare that to Britain First.


    Quote:
    No I mean riot. I am all in favour of peaceful protest.


Except in the NFL.


    Quote:
    Anytime they want (if they do it peacefully) and I'll support them if their protest is justified...but still waiting to hear from you what rights they don't have in America...?


Equal protection under the law.


    Quote:
    I support the NFL players RIGHT to protest. I simply said it was hypocritical to protest a handful of accidental/suspicious deaths by cops (who have extremely dangerous jobs)


Statistically, garbage men have more dangerous jobs than cops.


    Quote:
    while NOT protesting the THOUSANDS of deaths each year from gang violence...a gang violence that culture tends to glorify.


Are those gangs part of the government?


    Quote:
    Either way Obama 'stirred the pot' on that one.


Then what is Trump doing? Your outrage is 10 out of 10 when Obama sneezes, but 0 out of 10 when Trump re-tweets the British equivalent of the KKK. Oh right, you don't care. Trump can do whatever and suffer no consequence from people like you.

It's very telling.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,419



    Quote:
    I don't remember reading the Washington Post (I may have seen some articles of theirs online, I can't recall) so I doubt I have ever specifically called IT Fake news; maybe it is, I don't know.


What is fake news, then? Trump specifically labeled NYT, Washington Post, and especially CNN as fake news. And we know why he does it, because investigative journalism is Trump's kryptonite. He needs to muddy the waters of what is actually the true. It's an attack on the Fourth Estate. The next step is State Media, a role which Fox News arguably fills (you do know that Hannity has a direct line to Trump).


    Quote:
    I wouldn't say there is ANY news source I 100% trust. I prefer to take each statement individually.


Whatever that means.


    Quote:
    That Islamic Fundamentalists ARE Anti-American.


What about Jewish Fundamentalists? Or Christian Fundamentalists? It all comes from the same book in the end. Islam is an Abrahamic religion (Jesus is mentioned more in the Quran than Muhammad). While America is largely Christian, it is not a Christian nation. It is not founded on Christian principles. The government is a secular one -- and entitles everyone freedom of religion, and freedom FROM religion.


    Quote:
    So is Iraq a safer place since Saddam was ousted or not?


No, it's not. I'm not sure what point that proves, other than that outside extremists can move in after a destabilization in government is achieved. You suggested that the Russians are better off with Putin than without Putin.


    Quote:
    Well how many cops were killed by BLM supporting Snipers over the past few years...


The Snipers were not affiliated with BLM. If anyone on the fringes can derail otherwise peaceful protests, then they might as well not even exist. A movement should be judged by its motives, not those on the fringe.


    Quote:
    What craziness are you talking about. The black community in the US commits crimes on a far higher rate than any other. THAT'S why they are disproportionately targeted by police; you are putting the cart before the horse.


Pulling over black people because they are black is illegal, yet its still practiced.

Stop and frisk was deemed unconstitutional, and produced no benefit. Yet you support targeting black people because they are black. You support targeting innocent people for the crimes of others. This is called racial profiling.


    Quote:
    I used the evidence of EVERY example of characters lifting Mjolnir via worthiness.


While still refusing to admit a definition for worthiness has never been proffered.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300


...apologies for the slow reply. Been REALLY busy (still somewhat busy but thought you deserved a reply) and I had checked your post previously and seen the massive wall of text and just thought 'that's gonna have to wait'.


    Quote:
    Here are some loose ends I'd like to address. I am quoting statements from you here, Upper Krust.


Okay zvelf, fire away...


    Quote:
    What rights have white citizens in the west got that non-white citizens don't?



    Quote:
    In the United States, the right to vote. Now non-white citizens ostensibly have the right to vote but the Republican Party here has done everything in their power to restrict that right for non-white citizens.


Okay, firstly that's scaremongering nonsense. The Photo I.D. laws are there to prevent people voting more than once (note that undercover reporters caught Democrats saying they would Bus people from one polling station to another) and frankly any place that doesn't require voter I.D. is nuts in my opinion.

I saw a video on this around the time of the election where someone went to New York (I think) and in a poor neighbourhood specifically asked African Americans if they had Voter I.D. and whether or not Photo I.D. was a problem and they interviewed DOZENS and every one of them said it wasn't a problem and they all had I.D. and didn't know anyone without it.

Now, I will defer on the other aspects you raised because I don't fully understand what other laws prevent people voting. I mean I don't understand the significance of Early Voting (for instance) and why it specifically affects African Americans?


    Quote:
    And clearly minorities are far more mistreated by law enforcement than whites in the U.S. In recent years, there's been a rash of cases in which police officers shot or otherwise killed unarmed blacks, far more per capita than the shooting of unarmed white men. Here is a list of just some of these deaths from 2015 alone:>


Here's the thing, there will always be accidents in a high risk job like law enforcement. If a police officer is caught causing harm to anyone of any colour above and beyond what the law determines just then I'd like to see them charged and arrested. But even then, its not cause for hundreds to riot in the streets.

1. Most black people shot by police (shot, not necessarily killed) are shot by Black Officers.
2. More White people are (shot and) killed by police each year...an uneven amount given the amount of crimes committed.


    Quote:
    In all but 3 of these 16 cases, the officers got off scot free.


How do YOU know 13 of those cases were not genuine accidents?


    Quote:
    Compare that to what white racists can get away with - Cliven Bundy, who stated blacks would be better off as slaves, grazes his cattle illegally on Federal land and gets away with it because he goes around with an armed militia. And can you imagine what would have happened if two dozen armed black men took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge like Cliven Bundy's son Ammon and his group of militants did? They certainly wouldn't have been acquitted like Ammon was.


I don't know anything about this but if he is breaking the law he should be punished accordingly.


    Quote:
    There’s also an extreme imbalance in the incarceration rate in the United States between blacks and whites due to racial profiling


That profiling follows on from crime rates. One doesn't come before the other.


    Quote:
    Blacks and Hispanics are three times more likely to be searched during a traffic stop than whites.


They commit more crime, that's why.


    Quote:
    Blacks routinely get 10% longer prison sentences than whites for the same crimes.


Okay I think this is wrong and I disagree with it, BUT I also disagree with women getting 40-50% shorter sentences than men for the same crimes.

#SmashthePatriarchy \:D


    Quote:
    My knowledge of individual US Policies is hardly extensive but if Trump is so far-right (as you seem to think) why was he the first Republican candidate to champion gay rights and wave the LGBT flag at the convention when he addressed the issue?



    Quote:
    To court a voter base that he then completely abandoned after the election when he banned transgender troops from serving in the military


Weighing it up I think I'd say this was a smart move.


    Quote:
    and endorsed a huge homophobe in Roy Moore.


Fundamentalist Christians disagree with homosexuality. That's their choice. I disagree with it, but they are entitled to their opinion.

Approx. 90% of ALL muslims disagree with it too. Again, that's their choice, the difference being that in many Islamic countries they are just executed.


    Quote:
    There is no overt racism. That's why he had the largest Black and Hispanic support of any Republican in decades (if ever).



    Quote:
    I'll tackle your second statement first. It's a lie. In 2016, 8% of blacks gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 11% of blacks gave Bush their vote. In 2016, 29% of Hispanics gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 44% of Hispanics gave Bush their vote. The statistics are here:


Well I'm going to accept your statistics (I don't have the time to check all your copy/pasted arguments) but let me ask you this...are those Black and Hispanic Trump voters racist Nazis?


    Quote:
    As for "no overt racism," on 6/16/2015, Trump erroneously characterized Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists when immigrants, legal and illegal, commit crimes less frequently than U.S. citizens.


I already explained this to Norvell; his table folded Hispanics into Whites and also included Black Crime stats.

Immigrants commit less crimes than US Citizens IF we include crimes from black and Hispanic communities.

They still commit more crimes than Asian or White communities.


    Quote:
    Trump said illegal immigration is "absolutely out of control" and there is a flood of illegal immigrants from Mexico when the U.S. actually lost a net 140,000 Mexican immigrants between 2009-2014


...because Obama was deporting them in record numbers. But that doesn't mean it wasn't still a problem.


    Quote:
    Trump said he wants to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. Banning people based on their religion is outright discrimination. On MSNBC, Trump would not disavow Japanese internment camps.


I think he was just talking tough. He has done neither.


    Quote:
    Trump and his father’s company have a long history of racial discrimination in renting out their properties (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html). When Clinton brought this up in their 9/26/2016 debate, Trump did not deny it. His defense was that “many other companies throughout the country” were sued for the same thing, but he was able to settle “with no admission of guilt.”


I read the article and its to do with something that happened back in the 60s. I mean seriously zvelf. The whole article basically confirms predjudice existed back in the 60s...what a shock!


    Quote:
    In 1989, Trump took out full-page ads in all 4 major NYC newspapers calling for the execution of 1 Hispanic and 4 black youths known as the Central Park Five, who were accused of raping a jogger. Even after DNA evidence exonerated them after years of false imprisonment, Trump still claims they are guilty even though another man has confessed to it and DNA evidence confirmed it. Trump reiterated this claim on 10/7/2016.


We went over this in our debate last year.


    Quote:
    He has all the trappings of a loony Christian Fundamentalist. However, I don't see much (if any) of his beliefs becoming law.



    Quote:
    If Trump backs enough lunatics like Roy Moore then what they believe would become law. That’s the whole point of not backing ANY in the first place! I mean, Trump has freakin’ endorsed Roy Moore who has sexually assaulted minors! If Trump endorsed Hitler even though Nazi beliefs wouldn't become law, is that okay? It would be according to your logic here.


Again I am no supporter and know little about this Roy Moore character although the article I just read said he'd been ACCUSED of assaulting them. If he'd actually been convicted he'd no longer be a Senator (although then again Bill Clinton managed okay). So I am assuming these cases are either pending or he won...?


    Quote:
    So potentially 60 million ugly human beings in America today according to you.



    Quote:
    Sure, out of a population of 325 million, 18% ugly ain't that bad. 


Leftist mental illness, faux-outrage scaremongering from people who believe they hold all the moral high ground.


    Quote:
    Anyway, 60 million Americans who would vote for the most crass, indecent, lying, temperamentally unstable, woefully uniformed, inexperienced, and self-interested President of all time who also happens to be a racist and misogynist and callous con man, yes, they are certainly abetting ugliness.


Hillary LOST. Get over it. \:\)


    Quote:
    The Patriarchy is imaginary?


100%


    Quote:
    I suppose it's just a coincidence that the United States has never had a female President or Vice President in its 240-year history?


Its irrelevant. If one is good enough, she'll win. Hillary was rubbish, she lost...big league.

Here in the UK we've had two female leaders, no one gives a **** what sex the leader is (outside of far left idealogues). If the people think they are the best candidate, they'll win. If the people think they are not the best, they'll lose...and when they lose it will NOT be because of sexism, simply because the voters preferred the other candidate.

If Obama hadn't won you'd still be bitching about how no African American had become President.

Maybe Ivanka will win in 2024.


    Quote:
    That more than 80% of Congress are men? That 88% of our 50 states have men as governors?


More men enter politics than women (at least this is true in the UK, I am not sure about the US). So that's probably why there are still more men in politics.


    Quote:
    That the past two months revealed a score of powerful men in industry and government who have had multiple allegations of sexual harassment or misconduct stemming back decades? That their power deterred their victims from speaking up until now? Nah, that's all imaginary.


Complicit in all this are Bill Clinton and your beloved Hillary.


    Quote:
    No, his brag is not the worst, though until then, that would have been sufficient to sink any U.S. presidential candidate.


Luckily he was up against Hillary then.


    Quote:
    Sixteen different women alleged sexual harassment against them by Trump. Not one, not two, SIXTEEN.


I've seen ALL the reports and most of these 'sexual harrassment' cases involve a (known Democrat/Hillary supporter) claiming Trump kissed them on the lips instead of the cheek when saying hello.


    Quote:
    I'm sure you're going to dismiss it,


I dismiss false claims yes.


    Quote:
    but then you'd have to do the same for Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Roger Ailes, Kevin Spacey, Charlie Rose, and Mark Halperin too, right?


Is that a list of deviants or Obama and Clinton donors?


    Quote:
    You'll probably excuse Roy Moore's pedophilia too.


If he's guilty he should go to jail...or settle out of court like Bill Clinton.


    Quote:
    We have recordings of Trump boasting about bursting into Miss America pageant dressing rooms to look at the women undressed and the women attesting to that. Is that inappropriate enough for you?


Sounds like he was a bit of a playboy back in the day, how many of the women at the pageant have posed naked?

Shall we mention the moral high ground of the Pageant Contestant who later went on to have sex on a reality television show?


    Quote:
    We have video footage of Trump looking at a passing 10-year old and saying that he would be dating her in 10 years. Is that inappropriate?


Was he joking or does he regularly say stuff like that, you know, like 'Uncle' Joe Biden.


    Quote:
    Do those things make you think he's lying about his groping and that all these sexual harassment allegations against him aren’t true?


I think if they LET YOU touch them, it isn't sexual harassment.


    Quote:
    You think all of these women who have given detailed accounts are lying about Trump?


I don't know. I think some definitely are though (the woman on the plane for instance).


    Quote:
    Isn't it a bit odd though that you do accept the allegations against Bill Clinton but not Trump?


Bill Clinton settled out of court on 4 rape cases and made 28 trips to a billionaire Pedo's Private Island; where that guy also settled on multiple cases.

Trump refutes all allegations against him.


    Quote:
    Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price had to resign after reporters revealed that his trips cost over $1 million. Keep in mind this $1 million was spent in only 6 months time! Breaking all kinds of ethics rules,


...and when caught he resigned. Whats the problem?


    Quote:
    Trump's spokesperson Kellyanne Conway actually went on tv to promote Ivanka Trump merchandise!


No she didn't, I've seen the clip and it was a slip of the tongue.


    Quote:
    Trump fetes foreign leaders all the time at his clubs and resorts reaping hundreds of thousands of dollars for himself in the process.


But gets less in donations from foreign leaders than your beloved Clintons.


    Quote:
    Lying constantly?


No more or less than any other politician...and far less than Crooked Hillary.


    Quote:
    Threaten nuclear war with North Korea to the point even the Republican Congress is considering legislation to restrict Trump's ability to launch a nuclear strike on his own (because you know he can do it any time he wants to, right)?


Trump won't start a nuclear war, so stop talking rubbish. If North Korea starts one, THEN Trump will intervene...as he should.


    Quote:
    Hiring a coal lobbyist as deputy administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency?


I'm sure they'll do a better job than Huckster Al Gore ever could.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    Well (AFAIR) I've seen two videos of (I think) different groups of BLM supporters at different times (one was a video at night and the other was during the day) chanting that slogan.



    Quote:
    I have seen one, and it wasn't hundreds of supporters.


Well I've seen two and one was certainly 2-300 people.


    Quote:
    And a movement should be judged by its intent, not by the worst people following it.


I agree and I'm still at a loss as to the function of BLM. What are they hoping to change...that accidents happen...?

...and yes I have read an article about Campaign Zero. If some of those policies led to less accidents I'd support their implementation but I don't think they will.

Are there some racists in the police force; probably yes. Are there some racists in BLM; seemingly yes. But all they are going to do by continually going on about race is create more racism and divide people further.

Same thing with Britain First...or any extremist group.


    Quote:
    You can look up the ideology of BLM and compare that to Britain First.


I have studied BF a little more since our last round and seems they have a number of policies that tie into the theme of ending Muslim immigration altogether. Now there are a large number of problems with Islamic immigration to the UK (and Europe in general). But I disagree with BF on the point of wholesale stopping of immigration from one community. I stand by my previous comments that anything over +0.1% of the current population per year leads to problems.


    Quote:
    No I mean riot. I am all in favour of peaceful protest.



    Quote:
    Except in the NFL.


Already said I supported their RIGHT to protest, I simply said it was hypocritical.


    Quote:
    Anytime they want (if they do it peacefully) and I'll support them if their protest is justified...but still waiting to hear from you what rights they don't have in America...?



    Quote:
    Equal protection under the law.


Which legally they already have, so you mean anecdotally.


    Quote:
    I support the NFL players RIGHT to protest. I simply said it was hypocritical to protest a handful of accidental/suspicious deaths by cops (who have extremely dangerous jobs)



    Quote:
    Statistically, garbage men have more dangerous jobs than cops.


Are you saying being a police officer ISN't Dangerous then? Is that your argument?


    Quote:
    while NOT protesting the THOUSANDS of deaths each year from gang violence...a gang violence that culture tends to glorify.



    Quote:
    Are those gangs part of the government?


Can you only protest the government?


    Quote:
    Either way Obama 'stirred the pot' on that one.



    Quote:
    Then what is Trump doing?


Putting Americans first.


    Quote:
    Your outrage is 10 out of 10 when Obama sneezes, but 0 out of 10 when Trump re-tweets the British equivalent of the KKK.


Incorrect.

How many posts have I started here about stuff Obama has said/done...zero.

How many posts have YOU started here about stuff Trump has said/done...quite a few.

YOUR OUTRAGE is ALWAYS at 10 out of 10, mine is like 1 out of 10 in a response to your super-mega-overdrive faux outrage.


    Quote:
    Oh right, you don't care. Trump can do whatever and suffer no consequence from people like you.


I care more about the Primary Issues (ie. the facts) than the 'secondary issues' (ie. the hurt feelings) of people complaining about the Primary Issues.


    Quote:
    It's very telling.


Keep complaining about secondary issues and ignoring the primary issues.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 300



    Quote:
    I don't remember reading the Washington Post (I may have seen some articles of theirs online, I can't recall) so I doubt I have ever specifically called IT Fake news; maybe it is, I don't know.



    Quote:
    What is fake news, then? Trump specifically labeled NYT, Washington Post, and especially CNN as fake news. And we know why he does it, because investigative journalism is Trump's kryptonite. He needs to muddy the waters of what is actually the true. It's an attack on the Fourth Estate.


I know that CNN HAS broadcast Fake News. I don't know if that infers everything they do is Fake News. I can't speak to the others you mention.

CNN is certainly VERY biased against Trump. There is a reason they nicknamed it the Clinton News Network.


    Quote:
    The next step is State Media, a role which Fox News arguably fills


Fox is pro-Republican, ABC, CNN, MSNBC are all pro-Democrat.

Virtually all the chat shows are Pro-Dem as well.

Hollywood is virtually all pro-Dem.


    Quote:
    (you do know that Hannity has a direct line to Trump).


Just like I am sure many journo's had direct lines to Hillary.


    Quote:
    I wouldn't say there is ANY news source I 100% trust. I prefer to take each statement individually.



    Quote:
    Whatever that means.


It means dealing with stories on an individual basis, rather than saying all news from one station is 100% Fake or 100% Trustworthy.

...you know, the way I would treat an individual, rather than label 100% of one group "Ugly Human Beings".


    Quote:
    That Islamic Fundamentalists ARE Anti-American.



    Quote:
    What about Jewish Fundamentalists? Or Christian Fundamentalists? It all comes from the same book in the end.


...and how many people are they murdering worldwide?


    Quote:
    Islam is an Abrahamic religion (Jesus is mentioned more in the Quran than Muhammad). While America is largely Christian, it is not a Christian nation. It is not founded on Christian principles. The government is a secular one -- and entitles everyone freedom of religion, and freedom FROM religion.


Most of the values of the west are born from Christianity. Islam is the LEAST tolerant religion and passages within call for the Subjugation (or elimination) of all other religions.


    Quote:
    So is Iraq a safer place since Saddam was ousted or not?



    Quote:
    No, it's not. I'm not sure what point that proves, other than that outside extremists can move in after a destabilization in government is achieved.


The point is that the West can't always FORCE its values on other cultures and expect everything to be all rainbows and sunshine. Likewise the West doesn't want the values of other cultures (ie. Sharia Law) imposed upon it, which is something that increasingly happens when the Islamic population with another country grows within a western nation.


    Quote:
    You suggested that the Russians are better off with Putin than without Putin.


Going by the examples of Saddam and Col. Gaddafi they likely ARE better off with Putin.


    Quote:
    Well how many cops were killed by BLM supporting Snipers over the past few years...



    Quote:
    The Snipers were not affiliated with BLM. If anyone on the fringes can derail otherwise peaceful protests, then they might as well not even exist. A movement should be judged by its motives, not those on the fringe.


The two things were connected, just like hundreds chanting "Pigs in a Blanket, Fry Em Like Bacon" is ALSO connected. Yes these are Fringe elements, but the whole thing was stirred up by the movement outraged over a handful of (mainly) accidental deaths* and leading to mass riots and millions of dollars in property damage.

*But still not outraged over thousands of deaths from gang violence.


    Quote:
    What craziness are you talking about. The black community in the US commits crimes on a far higher rate than any other. THAT'S why they are disproportionately targeted by police; you are putting the cart before the horse.



    Quote:
    Pulling over black people because they are black is illegal, yet its still practiced.


If it saves lives I don't see why it should be a problem.

Primary Problem: The Black Community commits crimes on a 6:1 basis compared to Whites.
Secondary Problem: Police targeting the Black Community (where most of the crime happens) more often hurts some people's feelings.


    Quote:
    Stop and frisk was deemed unconstitutional, and produced no benefit. Yet you support targeting black people because they are black. You support targeting innocent people for the crimes of others. This is called racial profiling.


Stop and Frisk led to a large number of arrests (OF CRIMINALS) and also confiscation of guns and knives. It also lowered the crime rate when it was introduced in New York.


    Quote:
    I used the evidence of EVERY example of characters lifting Mjolnir via worthiness.



    Quote:
    While still refusing to admit a definition for worthiness has never been proffered.


All the evidence pointed to a single definition. Aaron ignored that to push his politics. Alonso paid the price.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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