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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,623


https://www.yahoo.com/news/martyrdom-mooch-doesnt-help-left-100051471.html


Personally he seemed very thoughtful to me and is clearly not by any means saying Republicans get a pass.

Agree? Disagree?


If I could find a Conservative view as well written I would have posted it as well.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135



    Quote:
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/martyrdom-mooch-doesnt-help-left-100051471.html



    Quote:

    Personally he seemed very thoughtful to me and is clearly not by any means saying Republicans get a pass.



    Quote:
    Agree? Disagree?



    Quote:

    If I could find a Conservative view as well written I would have posted it as well.


at least not compared to most countries. Not even close. One can say the Democratic party has become more liberal kicking and screaming about it. But one can much more easily make the case that conservatives have happily run far to the right. Making the choice much more stark and drastic than recent history.


To the point of the article. I disagree with how he is going at it. And also how this attack is made. The students have a right to voice their opinions just like anybody else does. That is a fact that hurts some's feelings but they do.


The free speech on campuses angle is an easy one for some to point out and there is some validity too it but it also generally ignores that free speech also does not exist on all campuses out of necessity. In the class room, back when I was teaching, if somebody would talk politics in a biology class. I would stop it. I have the authority to silence that, it is not on topic for the class. Does not matter what their opinion is. It is not biology and does not matter. So, even signing up for the class, they acknowledge the class is biology and we are not talking other unrelated topics.

To me it gets merkier with other things. Given the system, many unqualified people make these boards, the writer admitts as much. But I think he goes the wrong way here. Going after the students and a lesser agree the guy on the board. Shouldn't these places strive to put qualified people on these boards. If the guy knew what he wsa doing but was hyperconservative than at least he has a case with credentials. Right?

While I agree there can be issues with some opinions being drowned out on universities. We have already accepted that at various other places. Large conventions, numerous echo chambers and so on. Universities get tax money for sure but that does not deny the students their speech either. For that matter does it give somebody the right to come on campus and spread half-truths and various hatred? Hate speech is protected, but at the same time...should it be tolerated?

Not directly involving this case, my side track I mean, but I think some of this gets more involved that we consider. We hear, complaints of those that students hate free speech. While lecturing students to accept all other speech and basically deny their own. Seems that activism is fine. They should make their opinions known about things. Students are already somewhat abused by universities with tuition hikes and everything else. The least they can do is be heard.

They should not be the only voice by any stretch. But they should have a seat at the table. They are their to learn. And will carry on the universities legacy.


With respect to the writer, while I agree with some of his points, I do not think any of these is unique to liberalism. Conservatism is guilty of nearly everything stated in there from other angles. They just enjoy pointing out these examples.

Just like many of the more conservative base are apparently fine with voting for people accused and guilty of sexual assault. But then will happily turn around and go after liberals about people on their side. Even if said person was fired.

"But somewhere on that list, too, is the cultural elitism of Democrats who want to brand anyone who disagrees with them as immoral and intolerant."

I do have a few liberal friends that call folks that disagree with them facists. A few times it has basically been true in the context of the argument. I do not like that sort of thing at all.

However, I still think it ignores numerous things. At some point along the line the people that voted for Trump looked at his list of lies, sins and wrong doings and said "This guy speaks for me". While liberals may have helped push a few people over that way. There are more people than there should be accepting of pretty bad aspects of policy and society. Be it gender, sex, race, immigration and so on. As that is what Trump ran on. Fear and division. Liberals may add to that, but conservatives embraced it. Not all of them, but enough to basically make things something of a nightmare.




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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



    Quote:
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/martyrdom-mooch-doesnt-help-left-100051471.html



    Quote:

    Personally he seemed very thoughtful to me and is clearly not by any means saying Republicans get a pass.


If you want to really get people's attention, you should post Jonathan Pye's 'How and Why' post-election speech -- which is much harsher on the left, much more entertaining, and suggests that the demonization of Trump supporters pushes them further into ugliness. I'm not sure if it can be posted without triggering the 'spam alert', but you can easily find it on YouTube.

I'm of a different opinion than Jonathan, but I ultimately agree that Trump supporters should have the unfettered and unrestricted freedom to make their case for why Trump is good for America (or otherwise defend their viewpoint). I've been waiting, waiting, waiting for someone to make a good case for Trump, but I've yet to see anything passing as anything other than justification for Trump's behavior. Which is The Mooch's bread and butter.

So in conclusion, banning university speakers is wrong. At the same time, suggesting that the criticism is unjustified is equally wrong.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


I think they should be able to make their case wherever. I think the issue I have with many of these "deabtes" is even if evidence is lacking. Folks do not really change their mind too often.

This is true for Trump supporters or really most supporters of anything that they value. People rarely if ever change their minds. In particularly, most people react to facts counter to their beliefs by doubling down.

Ironically, and I am picking on Trump supporters because I remember the polls, while many Trump supporters know he is lying. They do not care. What does one do to counter such things? It is not a lack of information at that point. It is a lack of caring and an indifference. So long as it is their guy.

That is beyond what our governmental system is meant to be based on. It is even cultish.

Granted, not all are like that, but it was a striking result.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,623



    Quote:

      Quote:
      https://www.yahoo.com/news/martyrdom-mooch-doesnt-help-left-100051471.html

      Quote:

        Quote:

        Personally he seemed very thoughtful to me and is clearly not by any means saying Republicans get a pass.



    Quote:
    If you want to really get people's attention, you should post Jonathan Pye's 'How and Why' post-election speech -- which is much harsher on the left, much more entertaining, and suggests that the demonization of Trump supporters pushes them further into ugliness. I'm not sure if it can be posted without triggering the 'spam alert', but you can easily find it on YouTube.



    Quote:
    I'm of a different opinion than Jonathan, but I ultimately agree that Trump supporters should have the unfettered and unrestricted freedom to make their case for why Trump is good for America (or otherwise defend their viewpoint). I've been waiting, waiting, waiting for someone to make a good case for Trump, but I've yet to see anything passing as anything other than justification for Trump's behavior. Which is The Mooch's bread and butter.



    Quote:
    So in conclusion, banning university speakers is wrong. At the same time, suggesting that the criticism is unjustified is equally wrong.


I will have to look if its funny like you say I always need a laugh.

I don't think the guy was saying they didn't have the right to criticize, I think it was more against HOW they are doing so.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



    Quote:
    I think they should be able to make their case wherever. I think the issue I have with many of these "deabtes" is even if evidence is lacking. Folks do not really change their mind too often.


Agreed. The problem is further complicated by the fact that Trump doesn't really represent an ideology, much less an ideology that can be defended. He is aligned with some very ugly political entities, but he himself is more of an opportunist at best, brute authoritarian at worst.


    Quote:
    This is true for Trump supporters or really most supporters of anything that they value. People rarely if ever change their minds. In particularly, most people react to facts counter to their beliefs by doubling down.


There are basically two or three methods of changing opinion on a large scale. Public shaming (making a behavior so socially toxic that it isn't openly engaged in; e.g. racism), and winning the argument through tangible policy results. A third method would be violence and war (see Civil War).

Actually changing opinion via discussion is difficult, especially when everyone is now entitled to their own facts. No one can agree on a baseline.

There are entities actively trying to make racism and ethnic bigotry socially acceptable, and I don't hesitate to demonize them. The argument cannot be won through debate.


    Quote:
    Ironically, and I am picking on Trump supporters because I remember the polls, while many Trump supporters know he is lying. They do not care. What does one do to counter such things? It is not a lack of information at that point. It is a lack of caring and an indifference. So long as it is their guy.


Trump has lowered the bar for what is acceptable in politics, and that is why the push-back is so extreme.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think they should be able to make their case wherever. I think the issue I have with many of these "deabtes" is even if evidence is lacking. Folks do not really change their mind too often.



    Quote:
    Agreed. The problem is further complicated by the fact that Trump doesn't really represent an ideology, much less an ideology that can be defended. He is aligned with some very ugly political entities, but he himself is more of an opportunist at best, brute authoritarian at worst.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      This is true for Trump supporters or really most supporters of anything that they value. People rarely if ever change their minds. In particularly, most people react to facts counter to their beliefs by doubling down.



    Quote:
    There are basically two or three methods of changing opinion on a large scale. Public shaming (making a behavior so socially toxic that it isn't openly engaged in; e.g. racism), and winning the argument through tangible policy results. A third method would be violence and war (see Civil War).


I would quibble a bit. While shaming makes some things seem not ok, we also have a counter push that such things should be ok and acceptible now. Not everybody is screaming for racism, but it is working its way in. And one can make various cases for racism lite.

Policy results CAN end a debate but not always. Just consider Roe vs Wade or the ACA. All one has to do is stoke ideological fear and it does not matter what the initial ruling or law was. Or if it works or is ok. Policy works both ways.

The only way I have found is if somebody has not really taken much of a side or interest. They are willing to hear things out most of the time. The other that helps with leeway, at least with some of my Trump supporting family, is in specific areas.

If having a discussion on climate change for instance. Dispel notions by first going through what the scientific method is and is not. That it works and then what they have found under it. This has not changed minds in my experience, but it at least sews a seed that it is not all conspiracy based and lies of the liberal media. They are more willing to buy that it is happening.

However, it is often hard to have a discussion that long. And have the patients to endure some of the questions that fire out of somebodies mouth. Often insulting you, myself in the example, in the process.


    Quote:
    Actually changing opinion via discussion is difficult, especially when everyone is now entitled to their own facts. No one can agree on a baseline.



    Quote:
    There are entities actively trying to make racism and ethnic bigotry socially acceptable, and I don't hesitate to demonize them. The argument cannot be won through debate.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Ironically, and I am picking on Trump supporters because I remember the polls, while many Trump supporters know he is lying. They do not care. What does one do to counter such things? It is not a lack of information at that point. It is a lack of caring and an indifference. So long as it is their guy.



    Quote:
    Trump has lowered the bar for what is acceptable in politics, and that is why the push-back is so extreme.







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Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 787



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I think they should be able to make their case wherever. I think the issue I have with many of these "deabtes" is even if evidence is lacking. Folks do not really change their mind too often.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Agreed. The problem is further complicated by the fact that Trump doesn't really represent an ideology, much less an ideology that can be defended. He is aligned with some very ugly political entities, but he himself is more of an opportunist at best, brute authoritarian at worst.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            This is true for Trump supporters or really most supporters of anything that they value. People rarely if ever change their minds. In particularly, most people react to facts counter to their beliefs by doubling down.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            There are basically two or three methods of changing opinion on a large scale. Public shaming (making a behavior so socially toxic that it isn't openly engaged in; e.g. racism), and winning the argument through tangible policy results. A third method would be violence and war (see Civil War).



    Quote:
    I would quibble a bit. While shaming makes some things seem not ok, we also have a counter push that such things should be ok and acceptible now. Not everybody is screaming for racism, but it is working its way in. And one can make various cases for racism lite.



    Quote:
    Policy results CAN end a debate but not always. Just consider Roe vs Wade or the ACA. All one has to do is stoke ideological fear and it does not matter what the initial ruling or law was. Or if it works or is ok. Policy works both ways.



    Quote:
    The only way I have found is if somebody has not really taken much of a side or interest. They are willing to hear things out most of the time. The other that helps with leeway, at least with some of my Trump supporting family, is in specific areas.



    Quote:
    If having a discussion on climate change for instance. Dispel notions by first going through what the scientific method is and is not. That it works and then what they have found under it. This has not changed minds in my experience, but it at least sews a seed that it is not all conspiracy based and lies of the liberal media. They are more willing to buy that it is happening.



    Quote:
    However, it is often hard to have a discussion that long. And have the patients to endure some of the questions that fire out of somebodies mouth. Often insulting you, myself in the example, in the process.


I recently listened to Kevin Smith talk to Megan Phelps-Roper on Smodcast and she talked about what got her to leave the Westboro Baptist Church. She mentioned that those that spewed hate at her on Twitter just made her beliefs stronger. She credits a few people who were willing to engage her on social media were able to make her question her beliefs. She also mentioned that you have to know how someone thinks in order to make the arguments that will change their mind. She has a TED talk where she probably explains it better.

That said, it sounds like a lot of work and very frustrating.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Actually changing opinion via discussion is difficult, especially when everyone is now entitled to their own facts. No one can agree on a baseline.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        There are entities actively trying to make racism and ethnic bigotry socially acceptable, and I don't hesitate to demonize them. The argument cannot be won through debate.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Ironically, and I am picking on Trump supporters because I remember the polls, while many Trump supporters know he is lying. They do not care. What does one do to counter such things? It is not a lack of information at that point. It is a lack of caring and an indifference. So long as it is their guy.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Trump has lowered the bar for what is acceptable in politics, and that is why the push-back is so extreme.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,623



    Quote:

    To the point of the article. I disagree with how he is going at it. And also how this attack is made. The students have a right to voice their opinions just like anybody else does. That is a fact that hurts some's feelings but they do.


Voice their opinions yes...he isn't talking about that. He's talking about the ones doing much more than this. This is a VERY distinct difference. Or are you supporting those that are rioting because something someone said hurt their feelings? (I do not think you are saying this).


    Quote:

    The free speech on campuses angle is an easy one for some to point out and there is some validity too it but it also generally ignores that free speech also does not exist on all campuses out of necessity. In the class room, back when I was teaching, if somebody would talk politics in a biology class. I would stop it. I have the authority to silence that, it is not on topic for the class. Does not matter what their opinion is. It is not biology and does not matter. So, even signing up for the class, they acknowledge the class is biology and we are not talking other unrelated topics.


And if they are not in the classroom and suppressing this speech when they have been officially invited to speak? That's what is being talked about. Your example and point is valid...but has nothing to do with what he was talking about so is misleading. It's a false equivalency.


    Quote:
    To me it gets merkier with other things. Given the system, many unqualified people make these boards, the writer admitts as much. But I think he goes the wrong way here. Going after the students and a lesser agree the guy on the board. Shouldn't these places strive to put qualified people on these boards. If the guy knew what he wsa doing but was hyperconservative than at least he has a case with credentials. Right?


Wasn't it stated that it was known? It wasn't hidden what he was.


    Quote:
    While I agree there can be issues with some opinions being drowned out on universities. We have already accepted that at various other places. Large conventions, numerous echo chambers and so on. Universities get tax money for sure but that does not deny the students their speech either. For that matter does it give somebody the right to come on campus and spread half-truths and various hatred? Hate speech is protected, but at the same time...should it be tolerated?


There is a LOT of hate speech going on from both sides. And I find many left protect hate speech from say anti-fa and BLM, and many of the right protect it from neo-nazi's. But they don't protect the other sides right. IMO you protect the right of BOTH sides of it or none of it, not just one sides.


    Quote:
    Not directly involving this case, my side track I mean, but I think some of this gets more involved that we consider. We hear, complaints of those that students hate free speech. While lecturing students to accept all other speech and basically deny their own. Seems that activism is fine. They should make their opinions known about things. Students are already somewhat abused by universities with tuition hikes and everything else. The least they can do is be heard.


This isn't about letting them speak their minds. This is about them actively interfering on a physical level with another persons speech.


    Quote:
    They should not be the only voice by any stretch. But they should have a seat at the table. They are their to learn. And will carry on the universities legacy.


Sure...but they shouldn't be jumping up on the table and throwing feces on peoples faces and kicking them in the heads when they don't like what they hear.


    Quote:

    With respect to the writer, while I agree with some of his points, I do not think any of these is unique to liberalism. Conservatism is guilty of nearly everything stated in there from other angles. They just enjoy pointing out these examples.


As I stated at the beginning...if I had found as eloquent a post from a conservative I would have posted it. Why do you have to try to take this tack? This was about how to improve the liberal party...not say but the right is worse.


    Quote:
    Just like many of the more conservative base are apparently fine with voting for people accused and guilty of sexual assault. But then will happily turn around and go after liberals about people on their side. Even if said person was fired.


Yes yes and BOTH sides do this.


    Quote:
    "But somewhere on that list, too, is the cultural elitism of Democrats who want to brand anyone who disagrees with them as immoral and intolerant."



    Quote:
    I do have a few liberal friends that call folks that disagree with them facists. A few times it has basically been true in the context of the argument. I do not like that sort of thing at all.



    Quote:
    However, I still think it ignores numerous things. At some point along the line the people that voted for Trump looked at his list of lies, sins and wrong doings and said "This guy speaks for me". While liberals may have helped push a few people over that way. There are more people than there should be accepting of pretty bad aspects of policy and society. Be it gender, sex, race, immigration and so on. As that is what Trump ran on. Fear and division. Liberals may add to that, but conservatives embraced it. Not all of them, but enough to basically make things something of a nightmare.


Once again...this wasn't about "The Right is worse" or "The Right does this too". It was an attempt at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on how to improve the LEFT. This completely distracts from that attempt.

I will say again...if I could find a RIGHT writer who made an honest attempt at pointing out what was wrong with the RIGHTS side I would have brought that up as well...but I couldn't...which is pretty damning in its own right. But that's a different topic.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


I have heard her talk on other things and yeah. It is a very sad story. I think it also highlights that our own families brainwash us, although not usually to that extreme. We come out with varying bias with no basis other than what we were told.

If I remember right, and what you are saying, it took people being kind to her to get her to change. I do think that is important but I do not think it works for everybody.

One can change minds, but it is really really hard. Takes a ton of time and is nearly impossible. Particularly for somebody who holds whatever as a core belief or tenant of their identity.




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