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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312


Excuse this minor political rant.

I don't have high hopes for the Alabama election. Moore believes that 9/11 was punishment from God, doesn't believe that women should serve in politics, doesn't believe in freedom of religion, thinks gays should be outlawed, and thinks America attained moral perfection during slavery. He says that he has more in common with Putin than he does with most Americans, because Putin authorizes beat-downs of gays in Russia.

I watched a CNN special recently where 'conservative tech workers' were feeling discriminated against because they couldn't express support for this brand of conservatism in the workplace.

The implication was that this is a valid ideological viewpoint, on par with other mainstream ideologies. And I guess now it is. Or maybe it always was and we were just fooling ourselves otherwise.

What's the saying?

'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,734



    Quote:
    Excuse this minor political rant.



    Quote:
    I don't have high hopes for the Alabama election. Moore believes that 9/11 was punishment from God, doesn't believe that women should serve in politics, doesn't believe in freedom of religion, thinks gays should be outlawed, and thinks America attained moral perfection during slavery. He says that he has more in common with Putin than he does with most Americans, because Putin authorizes beat-downs of gays in Russia.



    Quote:
    I watched a CNN special recently where 'conservative tech workers' were feeling discriminated against because they couldn't express support for this brand of conservatism in the workplace.



    Quote:
    The implication was that this is a valid ideological viewpoint, on par with other mainstream ideologies. And I guess now it is. Or maybe it always was and we were just fooling ourselves otherwise.



    Quote:
    What's the saying?



    Quote:
    'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'


I will admit I have not seen anywhere where he outright said this...but if he has I would hope to see almost zero turnout for him.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,197



    Quote:
    I will admit I have not seen anywhere where he outright said this...but if he has I would hope to see almost zero turnout for him.


http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/351966-gop-senate-hopeful-roy-moores-five-most-controversial-remarks



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,734



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I will admit I have not seen anywhere where he outright said this...but if he has I would hope to see almost zero turnout for him.



    Quote:
    http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/351966-gop-senate-hopeful-roy-moores-five-most-controversial-remarks


The last one seems a bit silly to criticize him on...but considering the previous examples of things he has said may just be another nail in his "should" be coffin.

This kind of support from far right wingers is just as scary and insane to me as for example antifa is scary. Let me rephrase that...its even scarier because he might win and has enough people voting for him.

I know I sometimes come to religions defense on these boards...but he is an example of everything wrong with the right and religion. He's a clever idiot. A raconteur(or is it demagogue?) of the extreme right, who manipulates narrow minded followers.

Is this also the guy who married an under aged girl?
How is he not in prison?

To me this is a perfect example of those who scream the loudest at accusing others...actually being worse than those they accuse. We saw it with the republican's against Clinton...then the liberal Hollywood elite...and now back to the right with this guy. It just seems to get worse and more outrageous with each iteration.

Power corrupts...I cant think of a worse thing to do then give this guy more power.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


although this election is quite a bit closer than it has any real right to be. Alabama is the reddest of red states. And it is basically a tie in the polls. Given the leanings of the state most people will break for Moore in the end anyway, but it is shocking that it is this close.

It does partly move along the trend of even deep red areas swinging hard the other way. A few double digit red races have had special election results that were in the single digits and only within a few points in several. I am hoping that points to at least better things to come. At least with holding Trump accountable. Because the GOP has no interest in that at all.

Back to the point. Much of the Moore, or even Trump, brand of conservatism is based on victimization. They happily attack others for being too PC but their entire situation is anger that the world is not some idealized thing in their minds. They want their views to be paramount.

In many cases, it is the right to hate and discriminate against other people. And that is horrible. Just horrible.

Not all conservatives are like that, but it has been a growing movement that has gradually taken the party. It is not that liberals are sunshine and rainbows but by comparison they might as well be in most respects.

It does show the hypocrisy in many religious conservative voters. I am sure most of them demanded Frankin resign and others but if it is their guy than evidence is needed. Even if there were photos they would come out saying he was a good man. Not sure I have seen any evidence that Roy Moore or Donald Trump are good men by any stretch. At least not their public faces.




Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135


with his view that all Amendments other than the first ten should be removed. Great judge there, but he has either given no thought to what those are (ending slavery, ensuring equal protection, women voting etc) or is just a cruel guy.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



    Quote:
    although this election is quite a bit closer than it has any real right to be. Alabama is the reddest of red states. And it is basically a tie in the polls. Given the leanings of the state most people will break for Moore in the end anyway, but it is shocking that it is this close.



    Quote:
    It does partly move along the trend of even deep red areas swinging hard the other way. A few double digit red races have had special election results that were in the single digits and only within a few points in several. I am hoping that points to at least better things to come. At least with holding Trump accountable. Because the GOP has no interest in that at all.



    Quote:
    Back to the point. Much of the Moore, or even Trump, brand of conservatism is based on victimization. They happily attack others for being too PC but their entire situation is anger that the world is not some idealized thing in their minds. They want their views to be paramount.



    Quote:
    In many cases, it is the right to hate and discriminate against other people. And that is horrible. Just horrible.



    Quote:
    Not all conservatives are like that, but it has been a growing movement that has gradually taken the party. It is not that liberals are sunshine and rainbows but by comparison they might as well be in most respects.



    Quote:
    It does show the hypocrisy in many religious conservative voters. I am sure most of them demanded Frankin resign and others but if it is their guy than evidence is needed. Even if there were photos they would come out saying he was a good man. Not sure I have seen any evidence that Roy Moore or Donald Trump are good men by any stretch. At least not their public faces.


Call me crazy or naive, but I don't understand conservatism anymore. What is it? Can it even be defined? Based on the bizarre array of fringe figures at CPAC, I think they're having a serious identity crisis.

People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?

And if Alabama is the reddest state, then the assumption is that they represent a pure, more correct form of Republican conservatism.

I get the nostalgia of the 1950s, but not the 1850s.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135



    Quote:

      Quote:
      although this election is quite a bit closer than it has any real right to be. Alabama is the reddest of red states. And it is basically a tie in the polls. Given the leanings of the state most people will break for Moore in the end anyway, but it is shocking that it is this close.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It does partly move along the trend of even deep red areas swinging hard the other way. A few double digit red races have had special election results that were in the single digits and only within a few points in several. I am hoping that points to at least better things to come. At least with holding Trump accountable. Because the GOP has no interest in that at all.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Back to the point. Much of the Moore, or even Trump, brand of conservatism is based on victimization. They happily attack others for being too PC but their entire situation is anger that the world is not some idealized thing in their minds. They want their views to be paramount.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            In many cases, it is the right to hate and discriminate against other people. And that is horrible. Just horrible.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Not all conservatives are like that, but it has been a growing movement that has gradually taken the party. It is not that liberals are sunshine and rainbows but by comparison they might as well be in most respects.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                It does show the hypocrisy in many religious conservative voters. I am sure most of them demanded Frankin resign and others but if it is their guy than evidence is needed. Even if there were photos they would come out saying he was a good man. Not sure I have seen any evidence that Roy Moore or Donald Trump are good men by any stretch. At least not their public faces.



    Quote:
    Call me crazy or naive, but I don't understand conservatism anymore. What is it? Can it even be defined? Based on the bizarre array of fringe figures at CPAC, I think they're having a serious identity crisis.


It is a strange mixture of economic, religious and immigration forces that have been brought together. The three have been forced together in a way they were never really intended to be.

In my most negative opinion what it has become is something of the most negative impulses of some voters. Fear of foreigners, fear of people with different beliefs and lifestyles become more prominent and a displaced concern to ignore the lazy poor to give nods to the successful rich.

All merged together under an umbrella of victimized where everybody is always attacking religion (or their views of it) or their ability to say what they want about anybody and not face any sort of blow back. That is basically it. All while wrapped in a flag attacking others for not following their iteration of the Constitution from the founding of the country that only fully exists in their mind.

Not all conservatives are like that but the CPAC crowd is. And they are the GOP now.


    Quote:
    People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?


They are not. To me they are just the personifications of the Tea Party movement and the natural conclusion of some of the views that have always been there. But dialed to the extreme end.

Just good at harnessing perceived anger and directing it at things that are not as big a problems while throwing all others out the window. Protecting what they see as the status quo and casting others aside.


    Quote:
    And if Alabama is the reddest state, then the assumption is that they represent a pure, more correct form of Republican conservatism.


I think that would be accurate. At least in modern respects. One of the biggest shifts to conservatism or even the GOP is selective deficit memory. When Dems are in power it is all that matters. When the GOP is in power than if you are helping the rich than have at it.

Add on top of that the new opposition to free markets that was defining in the past. The protectionist policy and various other policies will do a fair bit to help the US decline in world power and importance.


    Quote:
    I get the nostalgia of the 1950s, but not the 1850s.


Yeah, but even then. The whole "MAGA" idea is stupid. There was never a period of history where everything was perfect or better. It is frustrating to me, and not only from the right, that we ignore history.

The war against regulations going on now ignores outright why these things came to be. What happened? Were they effective? Does not matter, government overreach and is bad all of the time. Get rid of them. That is the motto.

If one believes Roy Moore the last time America was great was around the Civil War. Despite there being slavery. Which is stunning.

The good economic periods it is not shocking that people like to remember. Their job was secure and so on. Which is what matters for most people, but there are such selective memories. The 80's in particular saw the conservative movement ignore AIDs and consider it a punishment on gays. Not all, but too many. Enough to have Regan ignore it at first as the health crisis it was.

Even now it is an issue. Look up some of the quotes from former HHS directer Price's wife. She is a MD, like her husband, but was opening discussing the possibility of locking everybody with HIV away, since they were living longer now.

It is not every conservative, or indeed unique to conservatism, but the whole anger at things different is the underlying theme. Liberals have a similar but less focused hatred. Some conservatives have been having the same battles since the 70's. The dedication is pretty intense.






Look Raist bunnies...
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        although this election is quite a bit closer than it has any real right to be. Alabama is the reddest of red states. And it is basically a tie in the polls. Given the leanings of the state most people will break for Moore in the end anyway, but it is shocking that it is this close.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          It does partly move along the trend of even deep red areas swinging hard the other way. A few double digit red races have had special election results that were in the single digits and only within a few points in several. I am hoping that points to at least better things to come. At least with holding Trump accountable. Because the GOP has no interest in that at all.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Back to the point. Much of the Moore, or even Trump, brand of conservatism is based on victimization. They happily attack others for being too PC but their entire situation is anger that the world is not some idealized thing in their minds. They want their views to be paramount.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              In many cases, it is the right to hate and discriminate against other people. And that is horrible. Just horrible.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Not all conservatives are like that, but it has been a growing movement that has gradually taken the party. It is not that liberals are sunshine and rainbows but by comparison they might as well be in most respects.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  It does show the hypocrisy in many religious conservative voters. I am sure most of them demanded Frankin resign and others but if it is their guy than evidence is needed. Even if there were photos they would come out saying he was a good man. Not sure I have seen any evidence that Roy Moore or Donald Trump are good men by any stretch. At least not their public faces.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Call me crazy or naive, but I don't understand conservatism anymore. What is it? Can it even be defined? Based on the bizarre array of fringe figures at CPAC, I think they're having a serious identity crisis.



    Quote:
    It is a strange mixture of economic, religious and immigration forces that have been brought together. The three have been forced together in a way they were never really intended to be.



    Quote:
    In my most negative opinion what it has become is something of the most negative impulses of some voters. Fear of foreigners, fear of people with different beliefs and lifestyles become more prominent and a displaced concern to ignore the lazy poor to give nods to the successful rich.



    Quote:
    All merged together under an umbrella of victimized where everybody is always attacking religion (or their views of it) or their ability to say what they want about anybody and not face any sort of blow back. That is basically it. All while wrapped in a flag attacking others for not following their iteration of the Constitution from the founding of the country that only fully exists in their mind.



    Quote:
    Not all conservatives are like that but the CPAC crowd is. And they are the GOP now.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?



    Quote:
    They are not. To me they are just the personifications of the Tea Party movement and the natural conclusion of some of the views that have always been there. But dialed to the extreme end.



    Quote:
    Just good at harnessing perceived anger and directing it at things that are not as big a problems while throwing all others out the window. Protecting what they see as the status quo and casting others aside.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      And if Alabama is the reddest state, then the assumption is that they represent a pure, more correct form of Republican conservatism.



    Quote:
    I think that would be accurate. At least in modern respects. One of the biggest shifts to conservatism or even the GOP is selective deficit memory. When Dems are in power it is all that matters. When the GOP is in power than if you are helping the rich than have at it.



    Quote:
    Add on top of that the new opposition to free markets that was defining in the past. The protectionist policy and various other policies will do a fair bit to help the US decline in world power and importance.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I get the nostalgia of the 1950s, but not the 1850s.



    Quote:
    Yeah, but even then. The whole "MAGA" idea is stupid. There was never a period of history where everything was perfect or better. It is frustrating to me, and not only from the right, that we ignore history.



    Quote:
    The war against regulations going on now ignores outright why these things came to be. What happened? Were they effective? Does not matter, government overreach and is bad all of the time. Get rid of them. That is the motto.



    Quote:
    If one believes Roy Moore the last time America was great was around the Civil War. Despite there being slavery. Which is stunning.


When you really get down to it, hasn't celebration of the Confederate Flag always been a wink and a nod to slavery times? This has always been the theory for those against the flag, and the pushback has always been that it was a Southern Pride thing. A pretense.

Roy Moore is just more blunt about it.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,197



    Quote:
    Call me crazy or naive, but I don't understand conservatism anymore. What is it? Can it even be defined? Based on the bizarre array of fringe figures at CPAC, I think they're having a serious identity crisis.


They are. This is a pretty good read on one Republican's take on how things are changing:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/opinion/sunday/wehner-evangelical-republicans.html

Conservatism is morphing before our eyes. There was a time around the Civil War when the Democrats were pro-slavery and the Republicans were anti-slavery. Today, the Democrats are pro-minority and the Republicans are anti-minority, but the Republicans have become ever more extreme over the past 10 years.


    Quote:
    People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?


Trump is who Republicans chose to lead them so that's who the Republican Party is now. If Republicans were abandoning Trump in droves after seeing how he conducts himself in office, that'd be one thing, but that's not happening.


    Quote:
    And if Alabama is the reddest state, then the assumption is that they represent a pure, more correct form of Republican conservatism.



    Quote:
    I get the nostalgia of the 1950s, but not the 1850s.


Yeah, it's scary.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



    Quote:
    Conservatism is morphing before our eyes. There was a time around the Civil War when the Democrats were pro-slavery and the Republicans were anti-slavery. Today, the Democrats are pro-minority and the Republicans are anti-minority, but the Republicans have become ever more extreme over the past 10 years.


What caused this change? One theory is that it was Obama, the first black president. But I think it's more that the neo-conservatives waned in influence in the wake of the Iraq War, leaving a vacuum in the party for the nationalist wing of the Republican party to occupy.

We thought the Bush Era was the craziest era for the Republican party, but it was barely the opening act for what would follow. I never thought I'd be on the same side of history as Bill Kristol, the infamous neocon skunk.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?



    Quote:
    Trump is who Republicans chose to lead them so that's who the Republican Party is now. If Republicans were abandoning Trump in droves after seeing how he conducts himself in office, that'd be one thing, but that's not happening.


One thing's for sure, this isn't the party of Lincoln.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Conservatism is morphing before our eyes. There was a time around the Civil War when the Democrats were pro-slavery and the Republicans were anti-slavery. Today, the Democrats are pro-minority and the Republicans are anti-minority, but the Republicans have become ever more extreme over the past 10 years.



    Quote:
    What caused this change? One theory is that it was Obama, the first black president. But I think it's more that the neo-conservatives waned in influence in the wake of the Iraq War, leaving a vacuum in the party for the nationalist wing of the Republican party to occupy.


Obama did for some, but the general feeling was just amplified off of general feelings that happened during the Clinton era and before. Obama accelerated some negative feelings but to me that was all he did. And it was through no real fault of his own for most of it. Other than being elected.

I disagree with that a bit. I do not think the crowd that was most patriotic about the war went anywhere. Many of them are the same ones you are referring to. They lived and died with Bush and conservative principles of the time. Most are with Trump now. Almost all in fact.


    Quote:
    We thought the Bush Era was the craziest era for the Republican party, but it was barely the opening act for what would follow. I never thought I'd be on the same side of history as Bill Kristol, the infamous neocon skunk.


It is pretty maddening. Bush was not good at all. But even he did not dismiss reality outright. Trump is pretty much an authoritarian want to be. One could even argue cult leader. I make that claim because the message you hear from them is you cannot trust anybody but me. That is almost the definition, everybody is wrong and lying except the leader.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        People are now conflating Trump, Bannon and Moore with modern conservatism, and who am I to say they're wrong?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Trump is who Republicans chose to lead them so that's who the Republican Party is now. If Republicans were abandoning Trump in droves after seeing how he conducts himself in office, that'd be one thing, but that's not happening.



    Quote:
    One thing's for sure, this isn't the party of Lincoln.







Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,197



    Quote:
    What caused this change? One theory is that it was Obama, the first black president. But I think it's more that the neo-conservatives waned in influence in the wake of the Iraq War, leaving a vacuum in the party for the nationalist wing of the Republican party to occupy.


People can and have written entire books on this subject. My personal thoughts are that after George W. Bush was a complete disaster as President - exaggerating Iraq's threat, invading Iraq to the tune of $2 trillion, destabilizing the Middle East, finding no WMD, failing to mitigate Hurricane Katrina's effect on New Orleans, and then the Great Recession that caused massive unemployment and huge financial loss on mortgages and across the economy - Republicans couldn't stand to see the Party fail on such a spectacular level. Furthermore, the party that had the most racial resentment was rewarded for all that with the first black President of the United States. The result was a temper tantrum embodied by the Tea Party and Birthers. We know it was emotional and not some dedication to an ideal because the Tea Party's main focus was on the National Debt. Now that Republicans are running the government and putting through a tax bill that will increase the debt by at least $1 trillion, those old Tea Partiers are completely silent. A large segment of conservatives basically decided that winning at any cost mattered more than governing well, hence backing Trump. They are in denial over reality and have doubled down on their policies being right even though they already failed spectacularly under Bush. But it feels good to them to be winning and spiting the other party after the Dems proved themselves right about Republicans during the Bush Administration.


    Quote:
    We thought the Bush Era was the craziest era for the Republican party, but it was barely the opening act for what would follow.


Yeah, really.



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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,084




Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.94 on Windows 10
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,197



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135





Look Raist bunnies...
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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,734



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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,834





And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,197



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135





Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,734



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,312



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,734



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10

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