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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094


I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?


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Bill


Member Since: Thu Sep 29, 2016
Posts: 13


Which books have been cancelled?


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 235



    Quote:
    I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...


...and it still is. Fans are slow to change.

I predicted all this 2-3 years ago after my own experiences reading (and later abandoning) Fraction's Thor. I loved the character Thor and therefore even though I was buying a comic I didn't enjoy I simply kept on buying it. It took me 18 months or so to just say enough is enough and stop buying a comic I had been buying for 20+ years.

I knew that even though so many of the comics were terrible (for a variety of reasons, often some combination of identity politics and bad writing) that fans would be slow to give up on them (because they love the characters) and that's exactly what happened. Fans have been slowly but surely deserting Marvel.

The problem facing Marvel is to win the fans back and that will also take time and they have a lot of trust to rebuild.

So if the past 2-3 years have been the slow death of Marvel, the rebuilding process could equally take 2-3 years.


    Quote:
    is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?


1. The comics were cancelled because of low sales.
2. Sales were low because the comics were terrible (again for various reasons).

I recall back during the New 52 that DC cancelled OMAC after issue #8. I loved that book and I was a bit annoyed at the cancellation but I wasn't OUTRAGED; I didn't throw a tantrum about it. The sales simply weren't good enough so it was common sense to cancel it.

No company wants to be taking a loss on a book. That said, Marvel ARE still taking a loss on several books but those books serve several secondary purposes.

But I suspect the 'bloodbath' isn't quite over and we'll likely see another half dozen titles end and a lot of reshuffling of creators.

I remember being critical of Bendis' comics (mainly because they were so decompressed) but his various Avengers titles of 10-15 years ago were all really high sellers.

- New Avengers averaged 140,000 sales
- Mighty Avengers averaged 90,000
- Dark Avengers averaged 90,000
...all those BEFORE the Avengers movies came along.

All were consistently top 10 books.

Today's Avengers (in the post movie world) sells 32,000. I've seen a few issues and they have just been dreadful on multiple levels. Its like heroes have forgotten how to be heroes and writers have forgotten how to write good stories.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    Which books have been cancelled?


Thinking off top of head

For sure:
America Chavez
Iceman Drake
Hawkeye
Gwenpool
Luke Cage

Possibly:
U.S. Avengers
Uncanny Avengers
Royals
Secret Warriors
Jean Grey
Generation X



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swmcbf

with small edit.

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,919


All true and at a cost of $4 it will be even harder to get many back or attract new ones.
One of the other things all the companies have long since forgotten was how great it was for fans to follow multiple titles. Following enough titles to become immersed in the Marvel or D.C. universe it felt like being part of the community. You would think in the internet era that should be a real strength but I don't feel that is the case.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094


Didn't help that they kind of of chased their customers away hinting at them all being racists and asking for that 4bucks to hear that.

The stories have actually been pretty poor as well...interest needs a boost and with the movies it should have been easy.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,450



    Quote:
    Possibly:
    U.S. Avengers
    Uncanny Avengers

Avengers titles are being merged into one weekly Avengers series, like what happened with Spidey books several years ago.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,450


Who would we outrage against? Ourselves?

I'm sad to lose America and Luke Cage, but I'm often sad to lose low-selling series. I still pine over SWORD. Sales are sales.

Pretty sure that Jean Grey was always intended to be temporary until the real Jean Grey arrived.

Iceman-- I just predicted that. The guy can barely support a miniseries. The stories were pretty good, but not worth the price for admission.

Secret Warriors never seemed to have a purpose. At most, it should have been a Secret Empire mini.

Anything involving the female Hawkeye, Inhumans or tangentially related to Gwens or pools can die in a fire. No crap given. I sorta wish it had been an actual bloodbath.


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 235



    Quote:
    All true and at a cost of $4 it will be even harder to get many back or attract new ones.

    One of the other things all the companies have long since forgotten was how great it was for fans to follow multiple titles. Following enough titles to become immersed in the Marvel or D.C. universe it felt like being part of the community. You would think in the internet era that should be a real strength but I don't feel that is the case.


I think with Marvel (and DC) is they could give a discount for those who buy multiple titles. Supermarkets use this tactic to great effect with their goods.

I think the simple slogan could be:

"BUY 3 GET 1 FREE!"

Essentially that reduces the effective price of FOUR comics to $2.99 each (give or take a few cents).

In the UK it would mean 4 comics for £10.






You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 235



    Quote:
    Didn't help that they kind of of chased their customers away hinting at them all being racists and asking for that 4bucks to hear that.


Yes they have been incredibly stupid these past few years.

I don't see myself going back to writers that have posted anti-fan tweets and interviews over the past few years. But I am sure many will forgive pretty quickly if they stopped doing it.


    Quote:
    The stories have actually been pretty poor as well...interest needs a boost and with the movies it should have been easy.


The stories have been dreadful because Marvel chased away most of their best writers. Either due to low pay or the toxic atmosphere within the company.

SJW writers don't seem to understand (or have forgotten) what heroism actually is and their 'heroes' often come across as annoying, whiny, self-entitled brats...basically cliched Millennials.

Looking back, the Quesada-era years seem like halcyon days by comparison to the mess Alonso left the company in.

Seemingly Marvel have:
- No direction (outside of Leftist Political Identity Politics)
- Failing brands (Avengers sells 32,000/month)
- A thinning talent pool
- Fans leaving in droves

Ironically what they need is a BIG event but one of the criticisms of recent years has been TOO MANY (terrible) EVENTS and trust is at rock bottom for them to deliver anything good.

But ultimately I think digging themselves out of this hole will come down to good writing, so they need a LOT of new or returning writers.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


Marvel and DC have always had black, gay and female characters. I'm sure that people were complaining when Jim Rhodes was Iron Man or when the Black Panther was on the Avengers, but there was no Internet back then. This is what is called "Fake outrage.".


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


Besides, the movies seem to be where it's at these days anyway. Comics have been getting canceled for decades, this is hardly a new thing.


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,974



    Quote:
    I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?


I had no idea these books were getting cancelled; then again, I haven't followed comics in a while. I was hopeful for the changes because they addressed my biggest issue with comics (mainly, the tedium of reading about the same rote characters), but I kept that hope on a short leash because I knew it was only a matter of time before the status quo reinstated the same old fan faves.





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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    Marvel and DC have always had black, gay and female characters. I'm sure that people were complaining when Jim Rhodes was Iron Man or when the Black Panther was on the Avengers, but there was no Internet back then. This is what is called "Fake outrage.".


The SJW term comes from "how" and "why" they were doing it, and even how 2-dimension and terribly the new characters were written.

The negative connotation of SJW is quite applicable in this case.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?



    Quote:
    I had no idea these books were getting cancelled; then again, I haven't followed comics in a while. I was hopeful for the changes because they addressed my biggest issue with comics (mainly, the tedium of reading about the same rote characters), but I kept that hope on a short leash because I knew it was only a matter of time before the status quo reinstated the same old fan faves.


So...you didn't support their changes(with money)? Why would you expect them not to return to paying customers?


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,913



Effectively they were all mary sues which were literally changed due to diversity where Disney tried to destroy the characters we have all loved.

Essentially, Disney tried to 'cheat' the system. Instead of creating new characters, they tried to transfer existing histories onto new characters and then accuse the people buying it to being racist, sexist etc.

The only decent character has been Ms Marvel and Miles Morales.

However, Marvel don't actually like partial success, as Ms Marvel actually shows good character development, rather than an automatic pass that we should like her, just because she is a muslim.








Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,974



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I had no idea these books were getting cancelled; then again, I haven't followed comics in a while. I was hopeful for the changes because they addressed my biggest issue with comics (mainly, the tedium of reading about the same rote characters), but I kept that hope on a short leash because I knew it was only a matter of time before the status quo reinstated the same old fan faves.



    Quote:
    So...you didn't support their changes(with money)? Why would you expect them not to return to paying customers?


I've bought maybe 6 Marvel comics over the past two or so years, so ... I did support them with my money?

And yeah, I fully expected them to return to the status quo, because paying customers (i.e. fans) are slow to change.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I mean it was pretty clear marvel was running itself into the ground...is that why I don't see the outrage over the cancellation of the so called comics of diversity?

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I had no idea these books were getting cancelled; then again, I haven't followed comics in a while. I was hopeful for the changes because they addressed my biggest issue with comics (mainly, the tedium of reading about the same rote characters), but I kept that hope on a short leash because I knew it was only a matter of time before the status quo reinstated the same old fan faves.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        So...you didn't support their changes(with money)? Why would you expect them not to return to paying customers?



    Quote:
    I've bought maybe 6 Marvel comics over the past two or so years, so ... I did support them with my money?


Honestly? Not really.


    Quote:
    And yeah, I fully expected them to return to the status quo, because paying customers (i.e. fans) are slow to change.


Possibly...but isn't it also possible the stories being told we just terrible too?




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:

    Effectively they were all mary sues which were literally changed due to diversity where Disney tried to destroy the characters we have all loved.



    Quote:
    Effectively, Disney tried to 'cheat' the system. Instead of creating new characters, they tried to transfer existing histories onto new characters and then excuse the people buying it to being racist, sexist etc.



    Quote:
    The only decent character has been Ms Marvel and Miles Morales.



    Quote:
    However, Marvel don't actually like partial success, as Ms Marvel actually shows good character development, rather than an automatic pass that we should like her, just because she is a muslim.



    Quote:


I was going to say...those 2 characters I actually didn't mind at all...thought they had some good moments and possibilities.

Those like Riri Willains though...wow...terrible...she's the definition of a psychotic villain.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    Who would we outrage against? Ourselves?



    Quote:
    I'm sad to lose America and Luke Cage, but I'm often sad to lose low-selling series. I still pine over SWORD. Sales are sales.



    Quote:
    Pretty sure that Jean Grey was always intended to be temporary until the real Jean Grey arrived.



    Quote:
    Iceman-- I just predicted that. The guy can barely support a miniseries. The stories were pretty good, but not worth the price for admission.


The guy is a total psychotic monster. I am going to a dead friends funeral...but I could care less because helooooo, I got a date!


    Quote:
    Secret Warriors never seemed to have a purpose. At most, it should have been a Secret Empire mini.



    Quote:
    Anything involving the female Hawkeye, Inhumans or tangentially related to Gwens or pools can die in a fire. No crap given. I sorta wish it had been an actual bloodbath.





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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 235



    Quote:
    Marvel and DC have always had black, gay and female characters.


Absolutely and they have also always had white characters...until the Alonso-era where any prominent white alpha males characters were systematically replaced; mainly by diversified knock-offs:

Cap (turned into a Nazi) replaced by Falcon
Thor (Nazi-Cap sympathizer) replaced by Jane Foster
Hulk (killed for potential future crimes) replaced by She-Hulk
Wolverine (aged and killed off) replaced by X-23
Hawkeye replaced by Kate Bishop
Ironman (comatosed) replaced by RiRi Williams.


    Quote:
    I'm sure that people were complaining when Jim Rhodes was Iron Man


I'm sure some fans did. But the difference now as to then is that there wasn't any political agenda from Marvel being pushed on fans; just a good story.


    Quote:
    or when the Black Panther was on the Avengers, but there was no Internet back then.


I don't see how Black Panther being on Avengers is grounds for complaint? Team rosters change all the time. Unless he was replacing a (given fan's) favourite character on the team.


    Quote:
    This is what is called "Fake outrage.".


So in your opinion Axel Alonso was fired because of "Fake Outrage"; is that it?




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,974


Some of them were (thus one of the reasons I didn't buy very many titles). But that discussion was buried by the constant bemoaning of SJWs.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    Some of them were (thus one of the reasons I didn't buy very many titles). But that discussion was buried by the constant bemoaning of SJWs.


I would say in some cases it was a fair statement. In that many of the characters all they talked about were their traits...like America.

And Cho...he was awesome as the smart alicky super brain skinny guy who outthought everyone...not as Hulk smash dude!

Riri is a psychopath.

Bobby Drake wanting to "hook up" rather than care about a friends death etc etc....

Just terrible terrible writing with stories based on surface traits rather than who they are as people.



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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


Characters have gotten killed off and replaced for decades now. Look at Chris Claremont's X-Men run. Most of the team seemed to be female. I'm sure that if there was an Internet back then, people would be complaining. Or when the new black Captain Marvell was leading the Avengers. This stuff has been a staple of comics for decades. They're trying to branch out and be diverse to get new readers. Also, The Falcon has stood in for Cap in the past. And I'm not sure if Alonso got fired, do you have a source for That? It could have been for any number of reasons. Jim Shooter got canned, and many people consider his reign to be the best decade for Marvel (Miller on Daredevil, Simonson on Thor, Claremont on X-Men, Roger Stern's books, etc.).


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


And we don't know the how and why. Again, this stuff has been going on for decades. And most of these are just brief changes in the status quo.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    And we don't know the how and why. Again, this stuff has been going on for decades. And most of these are just brief changes in the status quo.


Yes we do know the how and why.

They called anyone not with their program racist. Anyone who didn't like their directions as bigots.

If they didn't have an agenda...they wouldn't have used those terms.


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 235



    Quote:
    Characters have gotten killed off and replaced for decades now.


Not virtually all the main white alpha male characters in one go though.

Had it been one such character then fair enough the writer is maybe trying something different. But it was WAY too many at the same time - that's called an AGENDA.

Further worsened by the shaming, disrespect and emasculation of those original characters being replaced.


    Quote:
    Look at Chris Claremont's X-Men run.


One of the most celebrated runs in the titles history, if not THE most celebrated. Massive sales numbers.


    Quote:
    Most of the team seemed to be female.


Yes that's right, Marvel had strong female characters leading teams WAY back in the 80's.


    Quote:
    I'm sure that if there was an Internet back then, people would be complaining.


They certainly wouldn't have been complaining about the great stories being told though.


    Quote:
    Or when the new black Captain Marvell was leading the Avengers.


One of my favourite Avengers, totally loved her in Nextwave as well.


    Quote:
    This stuff has been a staple of comics for decades.


Exactly, the main difference being the Forced Left Wing Agenda being shoved down our throats now.


    Quote:
    They're trying to branch out and be diverse to get new readers.


Three things.

Firstly YOU JUST OUTLINED how comics already had female and diverse characters in them FROM THE 80s. The recent changes were less about BRANCHING OUT and more about ruining the existing white male characters. If a company has a successful brand they don't change it to be less successful (unless they have an ulterior motive - in this case pushing a political agenda).

To use the metaphor of Coca-Cola. The smart thing to do would be to ADD a new variant of Coca-cola, not change the original to Cherry Coke to appease a smaller percentage of people. Yes maybe if you put Cherry Coke in the famous red cans of classic coke then some people will be deceived and buy it anyway, but once they taste it they might not like it, so they'll go buy Pepsi-cola instead.

Secondly characters back then had personalities that were not simply their race; gender and sexuality. Additionally the characters acted like heroes rather than disrespectful, spoiled brats; whats more they weren't Mary Sue's being applauded for just being themselves - like today's SJW heroes. Heroes back then had to EARN respect. It wasn't just handed to them on a silver platter.

Thirdly comics were not centered around identity politics, they were action-adventure stories with soap opera drama. No one wants preached to and talked down to in their entertainment.


    Quote:
    Also, The Falcon has stood in for Cap in the past.


I don't have a problem with temporary stand-ins. No one does. Often a stand-in makes us respect the original more.

But if you replace a character completely and crap all over the legacy of the character being replaced then why should any fan of the original support this new character?


    Quote:
    And I'm not sure if Alonso got fired, do you have a source for That? It could have been for any number of reasons.


Lol. Wake up and smell the coffee.

- The sales are in the toilet.
- Retailers are complaining they can't shift the books
- Creators have been insulting fans online
- Leftist and Far Leftist politics were rife at Marvel under Alonso.


    Quote:
    Jim Shooter got canned, and many people consider his reign to be the best decade for Marvel (Miller on Daredevil, Simonson on Thor, Claremont on X-Men, Roger Stern's books, etc.).


His reign WAS the best, his story is well documented.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,450


I think that's a gross misinterpretation. The message was that he wasn't going to let the death of a friend get him down and continue living his life.

We should all be this way.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    Besides, the movies seem to be where it's at these days anyway. Comics have been getting canceled for decades, this is hardly a new thing.


Didn't say it was going anywhere...the people writing the current tripe are though.


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Mikel Midnight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,429



    Quote:
    His reign WAS the best, his story is well documented.


Shooter's reign was a plus for Marvel in sales, so on the whole, yes, successful. He also alienated many professionals who went on to DC. He also alienated many fans; I stopped collecting Marvel during Shooter's tenure and never really looked back.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,832


I know that blows people's minds. But diversity is the only issue. Ignoring the various problems with comics before any of this started.




Look Raist bunnies...
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