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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,513



Again, something so tragic raises the issue of gun laws. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

Basically 17 people are dead, because of a cowardly, no hoper Nikolas Cruz.

I understand that some people have a romanticised version that they are John Wayne and could outshoot a rogue gunman. The answer is limit gun laws surely?

Why do you need automatic, military grade weapons? I just don't get it, I just now a lot of parents and siblings will go on without their children.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272



    Quote:

    Again, something so tragic raises the issue of gun laws. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.



    Quote:
    Basically 17 people are dead, because of a cowardly, no hoper Nikolas Cruz.



    Quote:
    I understand that some people have a romanticised version that they are John Wayne and could outshoot a rogue gunman. The answer is limit gun laws surely?



    Quote:
    Why do you need automatic, military grade weapons? I just don't get it, I just now a lot of parents and siblings will go on without their children.


...in todays world with access to the knowledge to make incendiaries...wouldn't the whackos just switch to this? Or get their guns illegally? The issue is more I think...how has the mentality that has led to things like this come about.

How do we treat the disease and not the symptoms?


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,772


I strongly believe in the right to bear arms (and arm bears)... BUT!

I don't think anyone should be able to acquire assault/military style weapons. I think the only weapons that should be available to the average person are handguns, shotguns, and single-shot rifles.

And I don't think anyone should be able to stockpile weapons. Each person only gets to have 2 of each of the above.

I live in a town that some people have called the murder capital of the world (New Orleans), and I often walk around at night, but I've never in 50+ years felt any need to buy a gun. And I purposely don't buy a gun for my own and my family's protection.

We had Mardi Gras the other day, and we couldn't get through it without some shooting incidents near the parades... and one guy is dead from it.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,772


I think the ease of access to weapons is a major contributing factor to the mentality.


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,860


One of the reasons I think guns are part of the problem is because we can't even have a discussion about them. You'd be hard pressed to find someone not willing to talk about the state of mental health in the US. Switch the topic to guns and the "From my cold dead hands" crowd immediately shuts the discussion down. We've somehow allowed self defense and public safety to morph into toxically politicized gun rights/control.



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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,513



No one needs automatic weapons. The argument for gun control is self defence. A revolver, rifle or shotgun should be adequate.

We are allowed shotguns in the UK for agriculture reasons, e.g. putting down livestock.

There should also be a register, requiring medical disclosure and a 'referee of good standing'. If there are concerns, then a licensing authority should be able to investigate it.





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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,513



and culturally it can be part of the self image.

In Bosnia, I had to be calm, as it was enshrined in their behaviour to fire rounds in the air. The power of a rifle was deeply connected with 'the size of the man'.

I went to a very rough school, where if there was a problem, we would sort things out with our fists and that would be the end of it. Even in the army, we treated our weapons with respect and ensured we could strip it, clean it and replace the working parts if necessary. It was a tool, nothing more.



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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:

      Quote:

      Again, something so tragic raises the issue of gun laws. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Basically 17 people are dead, because of a cowardly, no hoper Nikolas Cruz.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I understand that some people have a romanticised version that they are John Wayne and could outshoot a rogue gunman. The answer is limit gun laws surely?

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Why do you need automatic, military grade weapons? I just don't get it, I just now a lot of parents and siblings will go on without their children.



    Quote:
    ...in todays world with access to the knowledge to make incendiaries...wouldn't the whackos just switch to this? Or get their guns illegally? The issue is more I think...how has the mentality that has led to things like this come about.



    Quote:
    How do we treat the disease and not the symptoms?


But one could take that a bit further. Why is the US this way in the first place? We have about 4% of the world's population but just shy of half of the world's privately owned guns.

That in and of itself makes it easier for those illegal gun deals to happen. Access is pretty much prime in the US compared to anywhere else.

For that matter, why are guns so romanticized by such a vocal group? If somebody wants a gun to protect themselves than fine, but why do we find it acceptable in public discourse that the Second Amendment is a blanket Amendment to support insurrection to overthrow the government. Particularly when that was never the reality or the intention.

I am pretty convinced that nothing can be done at this point at any rate that would get any realistic traction in the US. Apparently we accept that kids dying is just normal. And who cares about adults?


Preventing some individuals with problems from owning guns may be one area (this path was started to go down by Obama but Trump undid the executive action), bump stock ban did not go anywhere, folks on the no fly list cannot fly and do other things but can access a gun, the background check system we have needs to be overhauled to be more comprehensive and not let as many through the cracks.

Nothing, given how many guns are already present, will stop all gun crime, but much much more can be done to reduce the numbers.


I am not sure I buy into the tool argument completely. A gun is a tool, like a knife. But it is easier to do more harm with a gun than a knife. Easier to kill oneself or accidentally kill somebody. A knife has numerous intended uses other than stabbing somebody but guns are primarily there (based on proponents claims) to protect individuals, stop bad guys or similar things. Target shooting aside.

Even intimidation with a gun is the threat of violence. We should treat guns differently and do much more to push responsible gun ownership. We do not know what really does that either. And that is pathetic at this point.


It is like most politicians are just happy to scede the debate to the NRA and be done with it. Ignoring that the NRA is not a good source for the history of gun rights either. Their ideas are actually quite scary and hinge mostly on scaring people. At least from what I can tell from the speeches I hear. I would much prefer them doing more to help official agencies to do more to make gun ownership safer with training and the like. At least it is something. Not the lone hero facades they want to paint.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937


And this has become more common overtime, particularly the 90's onwards. It is not a good look at all.

And to me most of it is based on nothing but outright fear of things that have never occurred.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937


Bingo, although restricting access does not do much against the guns already out there but more should be done to restrict gun ownership for some people in my view.

Have you been in trouble for domestic violence? Probably should not have a gun. And other similar things. People are more likely to kill in certain situations and some crimes are more likely to occur if other things occur. Does not mean that they will, but to me the person violated the law and should have some period of time before those rights are fully restored.

We do it happily with voting for some groups of people. And in some states like Florida the hoops people need to go through to get their ability to vote back is a bit crazy. I figure there are reasonable numbers there.

And conviction of certain violent crimes, if they let the person out of jail, should prevent the ownership of guns in the first place.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937


I would be for that, but probably would add additional restrictions based on mental status (this one is hard based on a few things), prevent those on the no-fly list or terrorist watch lists or certain other individuals, expand background checks and make it more comprehensive.

I do agree, but good luck, that gun ownership should be limited to some degree. Part of the problem is the sheer number of guns available.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937


We do not know much about the shooter at this point other than that he seems to have been a gun sort of enthusiast that sounded like he had a past of mental health and behavioral problems.

I stated in other places some of the things I would prefer get done, but none will in the end. Just the same old same old.

I was thinking, and not saying this kid is of a specific ideology at present, that it is a bit ironic that more people in the US than one would be comfortable with did not have huge problems with the Bundy's forming an armed militia to stand up to the US government for enforcing court orders and the law. But these same people will raise a fuss about all manner of other crimes.

We have a very vocal minority that is pretty scary really. And somehow they dominate the narrative each and every time. Even basic things that would not restrict many people's rights to own guns are dead on arrival.

It is sad and pathetic.




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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,663



I won't lie, I just don't understand a lot of my southern neighbors.

Feeling secure seems to be the main driving force behind all this ridiculous stockpiling of weapons. However, the NRA can wiggle all it wants, but as far as data go, more often than not, guns do not improve security. It is quite the opposite.

If firearms would indeed improve security, the most armed country in the world would also be the safest with the lowest homicide per capita...



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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


The problem is that we get too much propaganda about guns, and usually the media is biased against it. And the Democrats will just blame the Republicans. But if you want to do an assault ban, you need to take it to Congress. That's why Hillary Clinton's proposed plan about suing and going after the gun manufacturers was so stupid, it's Congress who made guns legal in the first place. So we can change gun laws, but in cases like these, it won't do much good.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


It's not just the guns, because there are states and cities that have really stick gun laws (Chicago and California.) but still have big homicide rates, and other states (Such as Vermont.) that have very loose gun laws and very low homicide rates. It's more complicated than just guns being available. Also, for what it's worth, most gun deaths are not homicides.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,158



    Quote:

    Again, something so tragic raises the issue of gun laws. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.



I've said it over and over again. No other first world country has remotely close to the rate of gun deaths as the United States. There can only be two reasons, we have too many guns or we are too violent a people. If we have too many guns, get rid of a lot of guns. If we are too violent a people, get rid of a lot of guns. The solution is the same in both cases.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272





    Quote:
    I went to a very rough school, where if there was a problem, we would sort things out with our fists


This is part of the problem I think. Humans are animals...we have ego drives and conflicts and they can not be resolved with fists a fight and a get over it. Now its a massive build up of anger released in a different way.

Not saying this is the only or biggest problem but I think it IS a factor.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272



    Quote:
    But one could take that a bit further. Why is the US this way in the first place? We have about 4% of the world's population but just shy of half of the world's privately owned guns.


It's in our psychology and part of the very formation of our countries identity. There is historical evidence when govt. takes weapons out of the publics hands that said governments often become much worse. Not saying letting kids have access to machine guns is ok by any means though.


    Quote:
    That in and of itself makes it easier for those illegal gun deals to happen. Access is pretty much prime in the US compared to anywhere else.


Agreed


    Quote:
    For that matter, why are guns so romanticized by such a vocal group? If somebody wants a gun to protect themselves than fine, but why do we find it acceptable in public discourse that the Second Amendment is a blanket Amendment to support insurrection to overthrow the government. Particularly when that was never the reality or the intention.


It was partly was it not? If British rule had removed all guns/weapons from the colonies. There never would have been a revolution...or a successful one.


    Quote:
    I am pretty convinced that nothing can be done at this point at any rate that would get any realistic traction in the US. Apparently we accept that kids dying is just normal. And who cares about adults?


I agree sadly...as it would be better if we could do some things.


    Quote:

    Preventing some individuals with problems from owning guns may be one area (this path was started to go down by Obama but Trump undid the executive action), bump stock ban did not go anywhere, folks on the no fly list cannot fly and do other things but can access a gun, the background check system we have needs to be overhauled to be more comprehensive and not let as many through the cracks.


To me this is a no brainer and is sickening and horrific that such simple actions have not already been in place for years.


    Quote:
    Nothing, given how many guns are already present, will stop all gun crime, but much much more can be done to reduce the numbers.


Agree...there are so many ways gun crimes could be lowered that just are not done but should be.


    Quote:

    I am not sure I buy into the tool argument completely. A gun is a tool, like a knife. But it is easier to do more harm with a gun than a knife. Easier to kill oneself or accidentally kill somebody. A knife has numerous intended uses other than stabbing somebody but guns are primarily there (based on proponents claims) to protect individuals, stop bad guys or similar things. Target shooting aside.


I would consider it a tool for hunting and maybe a psychological tool, but I get your point. It's a much more limited tool and should be definitely be classified as more dangerous than a knife.


    Quote:
    Even intimidation with a gun is the threat of violence. We should treat guns differently and do much more to push responsible gun ownership. We do not know what really does that either. And that is pathetic at this point.


Agree...though I think if we admit it to ourselves, we really could agree on quite a few ways to be more responsible if ego, corruption, money, politics, etc...were not involved.


    Quote:

    It is like most politicians are just happy to scede the debate to the NRA and be done with it. Ignoring that the NRA is not a good source for the history of gun rights either. Their ideas are actually quite scary and hinge mostly on scaring people. At least from what I can tell from the speeches I hear. I would much prefer them doing more to help official agencies to do more to make gun ownership safer with training and the like. At least it is something. Not the lone hero facades they want to paint.


Agree once again.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,056


The main ones being the media and both political parties.


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,165


This sounds completely reasonable to me.

I'll be honest, I have absolutely zero to say on this topic other than, as long as I live, I'll never understand Americans and guns.


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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,663



Fair point.

Accidents probably accounts for a fair amount of deaths, but don't you think the gun = security paradigm has to be challenged a bit when you look at the data? There has to be something wrong somewhere to get results that are so different from other countries when we look at the per capita data on weapon possession and death by gun.

More guns = more opportunities for accidents and violent death in the same way more cars = more opportunity for car accidents and road rage.

It is hard to conclude that, overall, guns = safety.



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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,513



The Dunblane massacre tightly constrained firearms ownership in the UK.

Despite public belief, gun ownership is still legal in the UK, both for agricultural and for recreation reasons.

However it is heavily vetted for who should be appropriate, it is a 'right' as long as you can satisfy the conditions.

The perpetrator was widely believed to be a paedophile.

I am not American and I appreciate that gun ownership is part of your identity and history. However I don't see the point of having automatic weapons.

As I have bored people before, automatic weapons are deadly by thier very design.

You do not have to proficient to unload an automatic weapon, in a few seconds you can fire 30 rounds and effectively clear a room by just waving it around. With a decent scope, it is fairly easy to shoot someone, even someone who is zig zagging and running away from you.

It's not quite so easy to shoot with a handgun. A 9mm is really only effective up to 25 meters, whilst an automatic rifle (at least the one I used) is viable up to 800 meters away. It's also harder to maintain marksmanship principles with a pistol.

With a 9mm, you could be out of my range quite quickly. If you're trying to defenc yourself, surely you want them to get away? With a rifle, you may keep the range, but not that room clearing potential.

I am someone, who has been in 2 operational theatres and have the campaign medals for this. If I don't worry too much about never holding a firearm again, I am not sure why some Call of Duty players cannot.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:

      Quote:
      But one could take that a bit further. Why is the US this way in the first place? We have about 4% of the world's population but just shy of half of the world's privately owned guns.



    Quote:
    It's in our psychology and part of the very formation of our countries identity. There is historical evidence when govt. takes weapons out of the publics hands that said governments often become much worse. Not saying letting kids have access to machine guns is ok by any means though.


I will plead ignorance of the data on that account, but if that is the case than why is Europe not much worse in general? Or Australia? They have done that and baring other factors are pretty nice places to live overall compared to countries that just have very bad governments.

I agree that mentality has something to do with it, but is it history or just culture? It becomes hard to tell them apart, but some of the modern views of guns are very recent. The individual right to bare arms (personal gun ownership) was not really supported totally until the Heller decision. Other judges were fine with them, but most of them did not read that specifically into the second amendment until much later.

Now, this is not to say that guns were not important to the initial document etc., but we often ignore context. And much of the development of gun culture has as much to do with a history we would like to have happen compared to the actual one. At least it seems that way. Be it economics or what have you. Alternate realities abound.

I just am skeptical about the claim that owning a gun would do too much to stop a corrupt government. It seems more like a Red Dawn sort of fantasy than reality. And I would assume (not saying you are saying this) that it also starts to go down the path of why not other weapons then. The Second Amendment says arms, not guns. Does that mean that some guy with enough money could have whatever he wanted?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      That in and of itself makes it easier for those illegal gun deals to happen. Access is pretty much prime in the US compared to anywhere else.



    Quote:
    Agreed



    Quote:

      Quote:
      For that matter, why are guns so romanticized by such a vocal group? If somebody wants a gun to protect themselves than fine, but why do we find it acceptable in public discourse that the Second Amendment is a blanket Amendment to support insurrection to overthrow the government. Particularly when that was never the reality or the intention.



    Quote:
    It was partly was it not? If British rule had removed all guns/weapons from the colonies. There never would have been a revolution...or a successful one.


True, but one also has to flip that separating from a foreign government does not always require violent acts either. Things would have been very different but it is not to imply that all revolutions are good or that they all require firearms either. A fair number of such things have those with guns crushing others and doing pretty bad things too. At least if we want to look at the world.

Britain would also not have been in their best interest to do that. As these were their citizens facing real (or hyped) threats from natives, other countries with populations around, hunting and so on and so forth.

Unless we want to argue that the current US is as wild and untamed as that initial instance than I am a bit skeptical.

Also, France is also a major reason that the US won that war in the end. The US had to do its part too, but even with guns and a major ego the young US got its butt kicked many times in that war and 1812. Britain burned the White House to the ground.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I am pretty convinced that nothing can be done at this point at any rate that would get any realistic traction in the US. Apparently we accept that kids dying is just normal. And who cares about adults?



    Quote:
    I agree sadly...as it would be better if we could do some things.



    Quote:

      Quote:

      Preventing some individuals with problems from owning guns may be one area (this path was started to go down by Obama but Trump undid the executive action), bump stock ban did not go anywhere, folks on the no fly list cannot fly and do other things but can access a gun, the background check system we have needs to be overhauled to be more comprehensive and not let as many through the cracks.



    Quote:
    To me this is a no brainer and is sickening and horrific that such simple actions have not already been in place for years.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Nothing, given how many guns are already present, will stop all gun crime, but much much more can be done to reduce the numbers.



    Quote:
    Agree...there are so many ways gun crimes could be lowered that just are not done but should be.


Yeah, I am not under the illusion that based on who we are that gun violence will ever hit zero. That said, I would hope we could do better than we are. Particular with school shootings.

Ironically, general violent crime numbers have gone down overall. But seems like there are still way too many things happening. Guns just make them easier to do on a larger scale.


    Quote:

      Quote:

      I am not sure I buy into the tool argument completely. A gun is a tool, like a knife. But it is easier to do more harm with a gun than a knife. Easier to kill oneself or accidentally kill somebody. A knife has numerous intended uses other than stabbing somebody but guns are primarily there (based on proponents claims) to protect individuals, stop bad guys or similar things. Target shooting aside.



    Quote:
    I would consider it a tool for hunting and maybe a psychological tool, but I get your point. It's a much more limited tool and should be definitely be classified as more dangerous than a knife.


I know, I am not against people owning guns or whatever. I just think it is a burden due to its nature. It is a nasty thing that can take a life easily.

I am not big on hunting, but if people are into it I am fine. My preference is that I do not understand why people want to bother with it. But that is my bias. I do not do it and others can do what they want within legal limits.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Even intimidation with a gun is the threat of violence. We should treat guns differently and do much more to push responsible gun ownership. We do not know what really does that either. And that is pathetic at this point.



    Quote:
    Agree...though I think if we admit it to ourselves, we really could agree on quite a few ways to be more responsible if ego, corruption, money, politics, etc...were not involved.


Sure, but at some level I think one of those seems to lead to the other. Or really, and depressingly, all you need is a vocal group to go against the common sense stuff to make it a big issue anymore.

Not just saying guns, but the battle against vaccines in some corners and so on. And given the nature of the internet and such battling misinformation and individual bias is a much more prominent war than ever.

And that is in addition to the things you are pointing out. Which, depending on the organization in question varies over time etc. But is present.


    Quote:

      Quote:

      It is like most politicians are just happy to scede the debate to the NRA and be done with it. Ignoring that the NRA is not a good source for the history of gun rights either. Their ideas are actually quite scary and hinge mostly on scaring people. At least from what I can tell from the speeches I hear. I would much prefer them doing more to help official agencies to do more to make gun ownership safer with training and the like. At least it is something. Not the lone hero facades they want to paint.



    Quote:
    Agree once again.







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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:
    The problem is that we get too much propaganda about guns, and usually the media is biased against it. And the Democrats will just blame the Republicans. But if you want to do an assault ban, you need to take it to Congress. That's why Hillary Clinton's proposed plan about suing and going after the gun manufacturers was so stupid, it's Congress who made guns legal in the first place. So we can change gun laws, but in cases like these, it won't do much good.


Who is proposing an assault weapon ban?

And we cannot just change the laws to make it illegal to have them. Based on the SCOTUS and the Second Amendment it would take Congress and State action to change it. And that will never happen.

There have been very reasonable gun control legislation proposed and whether we like it or not the GOP is a major reason that it always dies. More specifically, the power of the NRA and vocal proponents of absolute gun rights.

Still not sure why Clinton matters anymore. It is more depressing that the whole thing is ignored by Trump to keep his base happy with him.






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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937



    Quote:
    It's not just the guns, because there are states and cities that have really stick gun laws (Chicago and California.) but still have big homicide rates, and other states (Such as Vermont.) that have very loose gun laws and very low homicide rates. It's more complicated than just guns being available. Also, for what it's worth, most gun deaths are not homicides.


To a point, but I disagree a bit here.

More gun deaths and I believe homicides occur in states with more gun ownership. There are pretty nice graphs and statistics about it. This does not prove absolute causality but it does show a trend that indicates something that one would expect.

And strict gun laws are hard to judge if you cannot actually control where gun's are coming from. Chicago is a favorite target, but it is next to Indiana where getting a gun is very easy. Why not just drive an hour or less over the border and get one and bring it back? Is that on the gun control of Chicago when they lack control over Indiana. California is a pretty big state but the same thing applies with Arizona and other states in ready drive.

Seems to me that the fact that the US has so many guns is a pretty telling statistic and seems to have what one would expect. More guns in a given area increases the probability of gun death suicide, homicide and so on.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937


Actually, if you do a quick search states with more lax gun laws have more deaths based on guns. So, your assumption would prove out to be correct.

Not saying there are not counter points, there usually are, but Chicago to me is always a bad example when you can just drive a short ways to Indiana and get a gun without worrying about any of those laws and bringing it back.

It is one of the major issues with expecting States to do much of anything. Patchwork laws have major issues. Folks always complain about them but depending on the issue at hand there are major advantages to having a baseline.




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 22,772


Yes. I was just getting started. I wasn't even delving into all sorts of reasons individuals should be barred.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,158



    Quote:
    It's not just the guns, because there are states and cities that have really stick gun laws (Chicago and California.) but still have big homicide rates, and other states (Such as Vermont.) that have very loose gun laws and very low homicide rates. It's more complicated than just guns being available. Also, for what it's worth, most gun deaths are not homicides.


That's not actually a very good argument. Chicago can have the strictest gun laws in the country but if the state of Indiana, 30 miles away, has loose gun laws, then it takes nothing to bring guns into Chicago. Controlling for all other variables, the easy availability of guns is the biggest factor in gun violence:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016396/trump-parkland-florida-school-shooting




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272



    Quote:
    I am not sure why some Call of Duty players cannot.


I'll admit this one made me laugh.

I don't think its as simple as that though, in the USA it has been ingrained into us since the creation of our country that we have the right...no the NEED to have these guns. At least on some level.

The same is not true of England...which has a much longer history where the peasant were not to bear arms and only the Nobles were allowed. It's much more ingrained over a much longer period of time I think that its "ok" that the public doesn't have access to weapons.

Not saying the USA is better...just saying this is probably "part" of the reason.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272



    Quote:
    Still not sure why Clinton matters anymore. It is more depressing that the whole thing is ignored by Trump to keep his base happy with him.


2 reasons why I think Clinton still matters...by default through Hillary.

1) Trump gets to use her as misdirection.

2) The Democrats/News/Comedians/the Liberal news and entertainment...wont let her loss go.

Essentially both sides keep bringing her up...to Trumps advantage imo.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,272



    Quote:
    Actually, if you do a quick search states with more lax gun laws have more deaths based on guns. So, your assumption would prove out to be correct.



    Quote:
    Not saying there are not counter points, there usually are, but Chicago to me is always a bad example when you can just drive a short ways to Indiana and get a gun without worrying about any of those laws and bringing it back.



    Quote:
    It is one of the major issues with expecting States to do much of anything. Patchwork laws have major issues. Folks always complain about them but depending on the issue at hand there are major advantages to having a baseline.


I am not sure that guns = safety is quite as simple as that.

Does alcohol = safety?
Do cars = safety?
Does pot = safety?
Does any of a myriad of things we expect in this country = safety?

I think you can bring it up as a factor/weight in if guns are good overall. But not sure saying they arnt always safe is a slam dunk case to end having guns...if you look at alchohol statistics or opiods etc...the stats are horrifying.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
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