Community >> View Thread

Author
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830



https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/08/government-shutdown-border-wall-democrats-security-solutions/2512363002/

"Democrats have rejected President Donald Trump's border wall as ineffective, expensive and immoral. So what are their solutions to border security? Among them: Better technology. Increased hiring for ports of entry. Improved infrastructure, such as fencing."

So a fence is okay after all, nothing immoral, so long as it's not too tall and easy to climb?










Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830



When you see folks like bd2999 give mixed responses that they're for intelligent border security as opposed to open borders, it's just an incremental strategy to arrive at an end goal: open borders.  They'll throw in temporary arguments such as silly wall ineffectiveness, cost issues, racism, etc.--all diversionary tactics of their true ideas.  It's why it's so frustrating to debate them, because you're actually arguing with someone who installs an intentional strawman to beat up on.  They manipulate you into believing there are shared goals, just different ways of getting there.  All the while secretly plotting against the supposed shared goal.  Think about it.  In all the shutdown news, how many arguments have you seen from the democrats that say it's because they want open borders?  Zero.  And yet 36% want open borders as the real reason but disguise their problem as based on immorality, cost, and wall ineffectiveness.  Why else would anyone oppose a mere $5.6 billion in a $1.3 trillion spending package?  It's because they know the wall/barrier will work and block open borders. 

And then you have people like this other guy who frequently posts here (I shall not name him but it rhymes with elf), who I assume is not of the same mentality as bd2999, probably doesn't want open borders (he strikes me as a selfish individual, the typical male feminist who only believes in things for hopes of getting laid), yet actually falls for the democrats' diversionary tactics because he can't see the forest for the trees to understand he's being played.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/398786-calls-for-open-borders-wind-up-closing-doors-for-democrats

"Troublingly, these views on immigration are not far out of line with the Democratic Party as a whole. In fact, a Harvard Harris poll last month states that a striking 36 percent of Democrats support “basically open borders.”

-------------

USA Today: Forget the wall already, it's time for the U.S. to have open borders

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/07/31/open-borders-help-economy-combat-illegal-immigration-column/862185002/

"The solution to America’s immigration problems is open borders, under which the United States imposes no immigration restrictions at all."





Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,869


To be honest, this is what both parties backed before Trump. The Democrats at this point have been in an issue on this because Trump has repeatidly made this that about everybody coming from that way is a monster, drug dealer or killer.

And all for an amount of money that would not even build the wall he wants to protect everybody from the apparent never ending flow of monsters.

If anything, Trump has made the well toxic, more than before. Even if he gets what he wants through national emergency declaration he still does not get the full wall and his rhetoric about all of this makes him a liar.

His best hope from PR is to do that and have a court stop it. Otherwise, it is now an out for presidents to do as they want on a massive level without legislative approval, when they cannot effectively negotiate their way.





Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 64.0 on Windows 7
Butthead2


Member Since: Tue Oct 24, 2017
Posts: 975


I have withdrawn my original statements from this reply but I stand behind them.


Posted with Google Chrome 71.0.3578.98 on Windows 7
Silver Surfer


Member Since: Mon Jun 25, 2018
Posts: 416



    Quote:
    Monsters, drug dealers, killers? Naw, Not at all. I just watched a classic called Cheech and Chong's Next Movie and they were singing songs. Trump might have seen it. Great movie.


The thing that scares me is the precedent calling a national emergency can lead to, even if one likes Trump, they should be wary of that.

He won't be President forever, some will like that, some won't, but after that the precedent will stick.

Odds are, you will have another president you disagree with, what happens if they follow in suit?

Border crossings have decreased hard over the past 20 years.  So, to call that an emergency is problematic.  To step in on a law enforcement issue, with improving numbers, could lead to more possibilities in the future.  Including ones you don't like.

If a wall is the will of the American people, it is the will of the American people (but with the GoFundME campaign for it coming up short, and congresspeople from almost all districts against it), that is up for some debate.

But debates are healthy, and necessary for a Democratic-Republic.

The truth may be, that with something this expensive, this full of potential change, it might need to go directly to the people.

However, given the tight election that put Trump in office, whether or not this IS the will of the American people is in question, and that is the true reason these people are elected.  To serve us.





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 52.0 on Windows Vista
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830




    Quote:
    The thing that scares me is the precedent calling a national emergency can lead to, even if one likes Trump, they should be wary of that.

    He won't be President forever, some will like that, some won't, but after that the precedent will stick.


You obviously haven't been paying attention, then. It already has been set. By Obama.

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/311608-obamas-curtain-call-a-look-back-on-a-legacy-of

As a candidate, President Obama expressed misgivings about executive power. After the 2010 mid-term elections, however, it became clear that Congress would not go along with the president’s sweeping regulatory agenda. So he pledged: “Where they won’t act, I will.”

He vowed to pursue “audacious” executive action in his final term. And in his January 2014 State of the Union Address, President Obama promised to “wherever and whenever” possible “take steps without legislation.”








Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
Silver Surfer


Member Since: Mon Jun 25, 2018
Posts: 416


An executive order is not the same thing as declaring a national emergency.  The latter is far more of a a power expansion, and possibly undercuts the meaning.

It is designed differently.

But yes, Obama's uses of executive orders was a bad precedent to set.  AS was is attempt to silence whistle-blowers from talking to the press. You can rad about that here (it is an interesting, if depressing, read):

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-trump-targets-journalists-thank-obama.html

Wilson's use of internment camps for German Americans in WWII was a dangerous precedent, which led to Japanese (as well as German and Italian in far lesser percentages)internment camps in WWII.

Though Wilson likely got the idea from Canada's Enemy Alien act was actually stricter and more problematic than Wilson's (not easy by any means), but they copied our Japanese camps... so it evened out

Hell, Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus was a dangerous precedent.

I never said Trump was the only one who was capable of setting bad government traditions.  It really is problematic no matter who does it.

And I know we have two other discussions up in the air, but I will have to get back to them later (stuff in my personal life, nothing horrible, just time consuming.  You get it, we've all been there), so I will get to them in the near future.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 52.0 on Windows Vista
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,171


Shush! Obama can do no wrong! ;P
Ok Ok less wrong than trump I will give.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830



From yesterday, NYT is saying there's nothing wrong with open borders.

I told ya. It's all lies from democrats. It's not about racism or wall ineffectiveness, it's about them wanting open borders and disguising their reason for protest.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/opinion/open-borders-immigration.html





Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,171



    Quote:

    From yesterday, NYT is saying there's nothing wrong with open borders.



    Quote:
    I told ya. It's all lies from democrats. It's not about racism or wall ineffectiveness, it's about them wanting open borders and disguising their reason for protest.



    Quote:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/opinion/open-borders-immigration.html


Wow this guy is an idiot and has no clue.
I'll admit...this is just as bad if not worse that Trumps they are all criminals mentality.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,869


Oh, it was for sure one of the bad things he did. He did many. That said, many of those are being taken to more of an extreme now.

It does amuse me in terms of politics that at one point the GOP cried about presidential overreach but when Trump did anything they were utterly silent or totally deferred. Were it Obama, I imagine they would have been all over him the second he blinked funny. Because they usually were.





Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 64.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,171



    Quote:
    Oh, it was for sure one of the bad things he did. He did many. That said, many of those are being taken to more of an extreme now.

    It does amuse me in terms of politics that at one point the GOP cried about presidential overreach but when Trump did anything they were utterly silent or totally deferred. Were it Obama, I imagine they would have been all over him the second he blinked funny. Because they usually were.

Completely true...the GOP is full of self important pumped up hypocrites that would sell their soul for an ounce more of power.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
Butthead2


Member Since: Tue Oct 24, 2017
Posts: 975


I am real disappointed the NYT would even publish such a horrible article like that. This would just bring caravans with millions of people from south of the border. This is exactly why I want Trump to win his wall fight. I am more thankful then ever to have someone like Trump as President and I support his anti-immigration policies. I would rather see no more immigrants allowed here at all then see open borders.


Posted with Google Chrome 71.0.3578.98 on Windows 7
Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,699



    Quote:

      Quote:

      From yesterday, NYT is saying there's nothing wrong with open borders.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I told ya. It's all lies from democrats. It's not about racism or wall ineffectiveness, it's about them wanting open borders and disguising their reason for protest.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/opinion/open-borders-immigration.html



    Quote:
    Wow this guy is an idiot and has no clue.
    I'll admit...this is just as bad if not worse that Trumps they are all criminals mentality.


Agreed the criminal thing is way overblown, especially if a precursory check is performed with the legal system of the country of emigration.

However my first thought when he said "open border" was, "Do you have any idea of how many TENS of millions of people would come here?" Just the deluge from Venezuela alone would be staggering.

I wouldn't blame them, if I lived in Bangaldesh I'd want to come to America too, but we can only handle so many folks at one time, otherwise the whole system will fracture as there is a limited pot of money and infrastructure to handle impoverished folks.

The outcry for the past few years in California, is we have to build "affordable housing" and we can't do it now; just wait until we add another 3 million folks in 2 years or less and see how bad it gets.

Also I guess it's ok with this guy if folks have TB, hemorrhagic fever, or other such wonderful diseases. My own grandparents had to take a TB test at Ellis Island prior to entry. I'm finding it staggering that folks had more common sense in 1917 than they do in 2019.




KATS latest read: The Sinister Shadow by "Kenneth Robeson"
Posted with Google Chrome 69.0.3497.100 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,171


It's like common sense has gone out the window. Honestly I think both sides are gaining power from the abuse of immigrants this leads too.

The Dems get all these potential votes and turn things more to a welfare socialist state.

The Repubs get all these free cheap workers and can turn things more to a oligarchy for the rich.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,699



    Quote:
    It's like common sense has gone out the window. Honestly I think both sides are gaining power from the abuse of immigrants this leads too.



    Quote:
    The Dems get all these potential votes and turn things more to a welfare socialist state.



    Quote:
    The Repubs get all these free cheap workers and can turn things more to a oligarchy for the rich.


Yes for years and years the two parties were both schizophrenic on the immigration issue.

The Republicans had traditional conservatives who were xenophobic and didn't want any "foreigners" to be allowed in. While the big money folks wanted cheap unskilled labor to be admitted so they could pay lower wages.

I think this still holds true to some extent. Big corporation are the biggest proponents of H1B visas to let non-citizens in to do work that American reportedly can't do - I hear more Hindu & Chinese than English sometimes when I go to lunch in Folsom CA near the Intel plant.

The Democrats were similarly schizo in that they had a more welcoming "let them in" attitude, but similarly had an anti-immigrant wing which was largely backed by the labor unions who did not want cheap labor coming in and taking union jobs (or at a minimum driving down wages).

I don't believe this still holds true, the anti-immigrant union wing of the Democrats appears to have collapsed. I'm hearing more and more calls for abolishing ICE - which I interpret for all practical purposes as "open borders".

Like you I'm cynical of a democratic politician who wants to abolish ICE, provide amnesty for those illegally here, or fight enforcement of the immigration laws. I see it as an attempt by politicians to remind folks at the next election "remember who fought to get you in, and vote for me". The rank and file democrat I'm not cynical of, if they have a soft stance on immigration (they made up their minds to follow their hearts and that's fine) but the politicians are just playing to an audience.






KATS latest read: The Sinister Shadow by "Kenneth Robeson"
Posted with Google Chrome 69.0.3497.100 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,171


I think that sums it up...even a step deeper where you show how even internally both sides are mixed on this.

And who suffers? The immigrants who want to truly become a part of this country the lawful way and join the melting pot. And the citizens who lose such industrious people joining us.

Who wins, corrupt politicians on both sides and the illegal aliens that manage to slip through and sneak in, and the coyotes who make bank off suffering.

It's why I think this will never be resolved. Too much self-interest in the political parties and their constituents just following along.

Immigration is GREAT...LEGAL immigration.
Illegal immigrations is bad for all.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2018 Powermad Software