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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830



It is getting some backlash over the feminization of men, but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from folks like zvelf, silver surfer, Thurisaz, and bd2999 in particular. Kim Gehrig, a feminist, provided much input into the commercial. So my question: Do you agree that the ideal man are like those that this commercial advocates for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0





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Silver Surfer


Member Since: Mon Jun 25, 2018
Posts: 421


I think that people people who have time to sit and contemplate about commercials, and their sociological message or impact (especially given that the whole thing is a marketing gimmick) need a more fulfilling personal life.

I have a similar view about people who call out others by name (albeit mostly fake ones), on a message board because they want to pick a fight.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,015


I honestly don't see how any rational mind could be against it.




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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,173



    Quote:

    It is getting some backlash over the feminization of men, but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from folks like zvelf, silver surfer, Thurisaz, and bd2999 in particular. Kim Gehrig, a feminist, provided much input into the commercial. So my question: Do you agree that the ideal man are like those that this commercial advocates for?


Saying "don't bully," or "don't sexually harass women or smack them on the ass," is in no way feminization of men.


    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0






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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,381



Are these "ideal" men? I don't know.

What I'm sure of is that men with no class that think with their dick and show no respect to women are not.

I mean, being a man has to amount to more than being a dick (pun intented) that that looks tough.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,192



    Quote:

    It is getting some backlash over the feminization of men, but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from folks like zvelf, silver surfer, Thurisaz, and bd2999 in particular. Kim Gehrig, a feminist, provided much input into the commercial. So my question: Do you agree that the ideal man are like those that this commercial advocates for?



    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0


While I don't like the what seems to be constant attacks on men these days...I don't see anything wrong with the message. I think its just that their is so much anti-men things out there these days that some are getting sensitive to it.

Men abusing women is completely unacceptable...but honestly most women don't want us to be just like women either. It's a tough road when you think about it...how do I be a strong man without pushing women down. How do I essentially hunt and gather them without treating them like a nonperson and only an object to be used.


Doing this the right way...is not easy.



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fearcalypse 

INfinity and BEyond

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,248


I'm waiting for that anti toxic feminity commercial. Sure it will be here anytime now \(euh\)






"James told me there's an old saying here on Earth: May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead.
Not sure if Turian heaven is the same as yours, but if this thing goes sideways and we both end up there, meet me at the bar."


Legion: "They will exterminate your species because their gods tell them to. You cannot negotiate with them. They do not share your pity, remorse, or fear."
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830




    Quote:
    I'm waiting for that anti toxic feminity commercial. Sure it will be here anytime now \(euh\)


Oh yeahh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW6192cgV8g





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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830




    Quote:

    It is getting some backlash over the feminization of men, but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from folks like zvelf, silver surfer, Thurisaz, and bd2999 in particular. Kim Gehrig, a feminist, provided much input into the commercial. So my question: Do you agree that the ideal man are like those that this commercial advocates for?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0


I've never been on the same side as Piers Morgan, so when two polar opposites agree, you know the shared viewpoint must be right.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6594295/PIERS-MORGAN-Im-sick-war-masculinity-Gillette-just-cut-throat.html

The Gillette commercial sends a subliminal message, generalizing that men are shameful, should feel bad about themselves, should monitor all actions of other men, and need to get woke that they're generally prone to bullying, sexual harassment, and abuse.

Joe Rogan, on his podcast, also nails it. The ad makes every man look like a misogynist piece of shit, and nobody wants to be lectured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JVmtaTVKPU






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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,360


I...don't get it. Gillette is a company that making shaving products, right? I would never have known that from this ad.

(I always use German products, Wilkinson sword. Never used any Gillette, so if I hadn't looked it up i'd not have known)


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,531



    Quote:
    It's a tough road when you think about it...how do I be a strong man without pushing women down.


That's not tough at all. It's easy to be a decent human being if you were brought up properly.


    Quote:
    How do I essentially hunt and gather them without treating them like a nonperson and only an object to be used.


You hunt and gather women? No wonder you're having a difficult time with this.


    Quote:
    Doing this the right way...is not easy.


It is if you're doing it right.





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,192



    Quote:

      Quote:
      It's a tough road when you think about it...how do I be a strong man without pushing women down.



    Quote:
    That's not tough at all. It's easy to be a decent human being if you were brought up properly.


Sure it is...men are expected to be strong and sensitive at the same time. When is it acceptable to be one way or the other...whats too far and so on is a little grey these days and changes with the morals of the society you are within, or whatever movement has taken over and can destroy your life so they can make their point. But I know everything is black and white for you.

It should be easy...but common sense doesn't always prevail now.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      How do I essentially hunt and gather them without treating them like a nonperson and only an object to be used.



    Quote:
    You hunt and gather women? No wonder you're having a difficult time with this.


Some typos in there on my part. How do you initiate your intentions and wish to be with someone without be offensive in todays world? It's not easy. Many women still want to be courted. Some very loud ones are very offended and feel harassed when approached by a man they have no interest in, instead of just saying no thank you. It's getting to the point where you need lawyers to interact.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Doing this the right way...is not easy.



    Quote:
    It is if you're doing it right.


I know your picking a fight and being snarky (else you would have said more or supplied something of use)...but no it isn't. I see good guys struggling with it every day.

Some things are simple...or should be.
Simple like..."I like you, can we go out?"
Answer is yes or no.

But the reality of it is no longer always so. These days if the person you asked just felt weird about it....your a garbage person...if you have a higher social standing or business standing...you abusing your power, and so on.

Oh and do feel free to continue to be snarky and insulting...I expect nothing less from you at this point.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,531



    Quote:
    Sure it is...men are expected to be strong and sensitive at the same time.


Nothing mutually exclusive there.


    Quote:
    But I know everything is black and white for you.


On the contrary, I'm always the one arguing for shades of gray.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        How do I essentially hunt and gather them without treating them like a nonperson and only an object to be used.
      You hunt and gather women? No wonder you're having a difficult time with this.
    Some typos in there on my part. How do you initiate your intentions and wish to be with someone without be offensive in todays world? It's not easy. Many women still want to be courted. Some very loud ones are very offended and feel harassed when approached by a man they have no interest in, instead of just saying no thank you. It's getting to the point where you need lawyers to interact.


Nah, it's not that bad. You just have to pick up social cues or if you're not sure, you get to know the person better before asking her out. Or maybe I've just never had trouble with women.


    Quote:
    I see good guys struggling with it every day.


Some guys have always struggled with starting relationships with women. That's nothing new. Books, movies, songs have dealt with this subject since there have been books, movies, and songs.


    Quote:
    But the reality of it is no longer always so. These days if the person you asked just felt weird about it....your a garbage person...if you have a higher social standing or business standing...you abusing your power, and so on.


People you ask out don't feel weird about it if you don't ask them out in a weird way. And yeah, if you're someone's boss, you shouldn't be asking out your subordinates, and if you're a teacher, you shouldn't be asking out your students. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, you're asking for trouble if you break this one.


    Quote:
    Oh and do feel free to continue to be snarky and insulting...I expect nothing less from you at this point.


I was just poking fun at you because you wrote you hunt and gather women. Relax.





THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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Urban Cowboy


Member Since: Tue Sep 14, 2010
Posts: 599



    Quote:


      Quote:

      It is getting some backlash over the feminization of men, but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from folks like zvelf, silver surfer, Thurisaz, and bd2999 in particular. Kim Gehrig, a feminist, provided much input into the commercial. So my question: Do you agree that the ideal man are like those that this commercial advocates for?



      Quote:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0



    Quote:
    I've never been on the same side as Piers Morgan, so when two polar opposites agree, you know the shared viewpoint must be right.



    Quote:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6594295/PIERS-MORGAN-Im-sick-war-masculinity-Gillette-just-cut-throat.html



    Quote:
    The Gillette commercial sends a subliminal message, generalizing that men are shameful, should feel bad about themselves, should monitor all actions of other men, and need to get woke that they're generally prone to bullying, sexual harassment, and abuse.



    Quote:
    Joe Rogan, on his podcast, also nails it. The ad makes every man look like a misogynist piece of shit, and nobody wants to be lectured.



    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JVmtaTVKPU


Here another good one to show an opposing point of view:(watch the whole thing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X94TPrzWsI




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


I am hoping this is meant in jest?




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


who cares? This is the first I have seen of it one way or another. I heard about it and figured it was going to be worse than that.

Teaching young boys to treat women with respect and to generally be respectful should not be controversial. Nor is it making men less manly.

It is funny to me that so many men are offended by this but other generalities are expected to be taken in stride. Don't be so offended. These things are problems, even if not all men or even most men partake in them.

Raising your children to respect each other is hardly controversial.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


I am still a little confused about your initial post. The second and third parts seem pretty snark with the gathering comments and pushing women down. I assume it is meant sarcastic.


It is not hard to ask somebody out. Unless one does it in a very awkward way. It is a complicated social situation though and it depends on the two people in the proposition in the first place. Generally, if you have something of a friendship or at least know each other, somebody will probably go on a date with you more times than not.

Not always but much of the time. Does not promise a second date or anything more than that though.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,192



    Quote:
    I am still a little confused about your initial post. The second and third parts seem pretty snark with the gathering comments and pushing women down. I assume it is meant sarcastic.



    Quote:

    It is not hard to ask somebody out. Unless one does it in a very awkward way. It is a complicated social situation though and it depends on the two people in the proposition in the first place. Generally, if you have something of a friendship or at least know each other, somebody will probably go on a date with you more times than not.



    Quote:
    Not always but much of the time. Does not promise a second date or anything more than that though.


It was bad typos and a mangled message not snark.

I was simply stating that there are adds like this...and then there are a lot of women complaining there are no real damn men anymore.

There are many mixed messages out there for young men. And yes a lot of it is common sense...or it SHOULD be. But in todays world (use the example above post of the teenagers) where people are crucified for an initial perception...or even just a gut feeling...it can be a mine field too.





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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


I have not heard a woman say that. I am sure there are women who do, I just have never heard that before. I have heard women complain about many things they look for in a partner. Like a guy expecting her to wait on him and not willing to commit and various other things not being manly was not a reason that I have heard.

What is masculine is as mutable as what is feminine in my view. It changes over time.

I mean I think it is common sense that guys should not just cat call at girls, or that do not do anything with somebody that is not interested. I just do not think it is offensive in the least to make a message like this. It is manly to teach kids to respect women, each other and the world around you. Does not mean you have to like everybody.

That should not be masculine or feminine. Should just be the way it is when raising children.





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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


Me neither but some folks are pretty mad I guess. HT looks to be pretty offended anyway.






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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,192



    Quote:
    I have not heard a woman say that. I am sure there are women who do, I just have never heard that before. I have heard women complain about many things they look for in a partner. Like a guy expecting her to wait on him and not willing to commit and various other things not being manly was not a reason that I have heard.


I hear it all the time and you still see it in movies and commercials...the big brawny handyman the ladies look at. And yes I know this is done with lovely ladies as well, but that's another point/topic. \:\) As for hearing it...I hear it alllllll the time. And no not from my gf ;P


    Quote:
    What is masculine is as mutable as what is feminine in my view. It changes over time.


Yes...and does this not back up what I said? The very mutability makes things harder, especially in an era where this mutability is far faster than any other centuries.


    Quote:
    I mean I think it is common sense that guys should not just cat call at girls, or that do not do anything with somebody that is not interested. I just do not think it is offensive in the least to make a message like this. It is manly to teach kids to respect women, each other and the world around you. Does not mean you have to like everybody.


Cat call...yeah bad, but compliments? Compliments should be fine.
And yes...you should never do something with another persons body they don't want you to. (Example that scumbag of a nurse who preyed on his patients comatose body and made her pregnant...this is an abhorrent thing he did).

As for the commercials message...I think that's exactly what I stated in my first post...there is nothing wrong with its message. I think its showing the fathers (99% of them) as complete douche bags implying men are THE PROBLEM, added to the constant negative male bashing that's become the norm. Not saying many men don't have to be taken to account on this but its become the norm to male bash.


    Quote:
    That should not be masculine or feminine. Should just be the way it is when raising children.


Don't disagree...though I have seen some very compelling evidence that its actually good to let your kids fight a little when young. Human beings are animals...not "like" animals. We ARE animals. There is something in us that drives us to compete against each other...test ourselves against others etc...the problem is the bullying and emotional issues that get wrapped up in it. I am not 100% sure what the solution is to this, though I agree bullying etc...helps no one (well it helped me in learning to fight back and stand up for myself when I was a kid, but I don't speak for everyone on that I am sure).


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,192


Yeah and the data supports all of this. Both men and women...in other words HUMANS mess up and have problems. There is an old old movie (a bad one too) called Cherry 2000 I think. And its one funny bit is men and women have to hire lawyers to even go out on dates because things became so toxic between them. Maybe not so funny...if we end up there.


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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830




    Quote:
    who cares? This is the first I have seen of it one way or another. I heard about it and figured it was going to be worse than that.

    Teaching young boys to treat women with respect and to generally be respectful should not be controversial. Nor is it making men less manly.

    It is funny to me that so many men are offended by this but other generalities are expected to be taken in stride. Don't be so offended. These things are problems, even if not all men or even most men partake in them.

    Raising your children to respect each other is hardly controversial.


It's not about whether the message is entirely or somewhat agreeable. More irritating is that it's coming from people who don't have their shit together, either. So that's one point of view.

Another is this: Not all of us still live with our parents, bd. Most of us moved out when we came of age and got tired of the nagging.





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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 3,830




    Quote:
    Nah, it's not that bad. You just have to pick up social cues or if you're not sure, you get to know the person better before asking her out. Or maybe I've just never had trouble with women.














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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883


They are allowed their point of view on things. And it is not like the objectification of women is not still an issue. The things in the commercial do happen. It is calling light to it.

Who cares if you live in your parents basement or not?




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,883



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I have not heard a woman say that. I am sure there are women who do, I just have never heard that before. I have heard women complain about many things they look for in a partner. Like a guy expecting her to wait on him and not willing to commit and various other things not being manly was not a reason that I have heard.



    Quote:
    I hear it all the time and you still see it in movies and commercials...the big brawny handyman the ladies look at. And yes I know this is done with lovely ladies as well, but that's another point/topic. \:\) As for hearing it...I hear it alllllll the time. And no not from my gf ;P


I am not sure that is a good example. If you look at commercials and movies than the guys are often in great shape. So are the women. It does not mean that everybody has to end up with a model or they are not happy. Most people separate things a bit.

Some women expect a potential partner to be in shape. Hell, the same is true for guys. I just do not see it as unique to women. Weight of a woman in particular is more of a hang up for guys than women, in general.

I would say height is probably the nearest I can think of for women. In generalities.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      What is masculine is as mutable as what is feminine in my view. It changes over time.



    Quote:
    Yes...and does this not back up what I said? The very mutability makes things harder, especially in an era where this mutability is far faster than any other centuries.


Not really, unless I read you wrong. You seem to be claiming that it is harder for guys. If they are both mutable than it should be hard either way.

And it is hard for everybody, as everybody has a slightly different standard of what they are looking for. Right or wrong. And certain things they will or will not compromise on.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I mean I think it is common sense that guys should not just cat call at girls, or that do not do anything with somebody that is not interested. I just do not think it is offensive in the least to make a message like this. It is manly to teach kids to respect women, each other and the world around you. Does not mean you have to like everybody.



    Quote:
    Cat call...yeah bad, but compliments? Compliments should be fine.
    And yes...you should never do something with another persons body they don't want you to. (Example that scumbag of a nurse who preyed on his patients comatose body and made her pregnant...this is an abhorrent thing he did).


Compliments are fine, but depending on how they are said can make it complicated. Complementing somebody is usually taken well, even if not as a sexual thing.

I am sure there are exceptions, but I generally have never seen a woman get mad at somebody for saying they are pretty. I am sure that depends on the situation, who is saying it and in what context. A drunk guy at the bar is different than a compliment about an outfit etc. in a social gathering.


    Quote:
    As for the commercials message...I think that's exactly what I stated in my first post...there is nothing wrong with its message. I think its showing the fathers (99% of them) as complete douche bags implying men are THE PROBLEM, added to the constant negative male bashing that's become the norm. Not saying many men don't have to be taken to account on this but its become the norm to male bash.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      That should not be masculine or feminine. Should just be the way it is when raising children.


I agree. To a point, but one could make an argument that objectifying commercials about women are usually not discussed much. And sometimes it takes a smash in the face to get anybody to notice.

I mean, at least with men and women dynamics. It is more common to have men do inappropriate things to women than the other way. That does not mean that women are not bad in their own way but the ratios are skewed for sexual assault and such.

And if one watches classic movies one can see the boys will be boys aspect. No harm in teaching boys to be mature men. It should be done for both but there are responsibilities with boys in particular. Given stats being what they are.


    Quote:
    Don't disagree...though I have seen some very compelling evidence that its actually good to let your kids fight a little when young. Human beings are animals...not "like" animals. We ARE animals. There is something in us that drives us to compete against each other...test ourselves against others etc...the problem is the bullying and emotional issues that get wrapped up in it. I am not 100% sure what the solution is to this, though I agree bullying etc...helps no one (well it helped me in learning to fight back and stand up for myself when I was a kid, but I don't speak for everyone on that I am sure).


I am ok with competition or even some play wrestling but even animals put limits on that.

Where the limit is for that sort of activity can be hard to figure out too. And it is often on the kid getting the rough end of it. It is on the parent to realize it is a problem and not just rub some dirt on it.






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