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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,205


Trump surrendered to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats and reopened the government with no funding for the wall. His base feels betrayed with Ann Coulter calling Trump the "biggest wimp ever to serve as President of the United States." With IRS staff not showing up for work, Trump was about to get the entire country far more irate as tax refunds would be arriving late if the shutdown continued. Additionally McConnell told Trump that he couldn't hold the Republicans together on the shutdown any longer. Republican Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson blamed Mitch McConnell for letting the government shutdown go on for so long while a poll in Wisconsin showed that 49% of Wisconsinites absolutely will not vote for Trump in 2020 to 27% who would. Trump's approval was falling despite his bully pulpit and fruitless prime time address. All the suffering and financial costs that Trump caused with the shutdown was in vain - Trump's inexperience and incompetence at its finest.

In addition to all that, now Trump's campaign chair Paul Manafort has been convicted, Trump's deputy campaign chair Rick Gates has pleaded guilty, Trump's national security advisor has pleaded guilty, his personal lawyer of 12 years Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty, and Trump's most loyal advisor Roger Stone has been charged with crimes. Mueller is closing in.



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Butthead2


Member Since: Tue Oct 24, 2017
Posts: 435


I think your wording is a bit off. Trump did not surrender to Nancy Pelosi. He granted a 3 week reprieve so the federal workers can be paid and to try to get everyone back to the table to negotiate a deal. He said if a deal is not reached in 3 weeks that he would either shut down the government again or declare an emergency and go around congress for the wall. I am glad the workers can get paid but this is not over by any means. I like a few things he has done such as making all those kids apply for asylum in their own country and not in the US and making the asylum seekers wait in Mexico while their cases are processed. Maybe Trump will start stepping up deportations if he gets no additional walls. We already have 650 miles of walls and barriers. Trump can still create hardship for immigrants even without a wall. His speech today was outstanding and he did a great job explaining why many illegal immigrants are nothing but criminals.


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Dark Marvel


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,233



    Quote:
    I think your wording is a bit off. Trump did not surrender to Nancy Pelosi. He granted a 3 week reprieve so the federal workers can be paid and to try to get everyone back to the table to negotiate a deal. He said if a deal is not reached in 3 weeks that he would either shut down the government again or declare an emergency and go around congress for the wall. I am glad the workers can get paid but this is not over by any means. I like a few things he has done such as making all those kids apply for asylum in their own country and not in the US and making the asylum seekers wait in Mexico while their cases are processed. Maybe Trump will start stepping up deportations if he gets no additional walls. We already have 650 miles of walls and barriers. Trump can do alot of harm to immigrants even without a wall. His speech today was outstanding and he did a great job explaining why many illegal immigrants are nothing but criminals.



***If he shuts down the government a second time he can kiss re-election good bye. If he tries to declare an emergency it will be taken to the courts and more than likely not happen. If it could happen he would have done it already. He kind of backed himself into a corner here...at least it seems that way.





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Butthead2


Member Since: Tue Oct 24, 2017
Posts: 435


Who cares if he gets re elected or not. He still has 2 more years in power and he can still do alot more good things. We will see what happens. I never expected him to be elected to begin with. I look at Trump as nothing but a hero. He kept Hilary Clinton out of The White House and that was so great. He also stood up to those NFL players who disrespected the national anthem and helped generate massive amounts of hate towards them that no other President would have done. He has also made life much tougher for so many immigrants even without a wall. I hope he shuts down the government again in 3 weeks if no deal is reached and I dont care how low his rating goes.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,205



    Quote:
    I think your wording is a bit off. Trump did not surrender to Nancy Pelosi. He granted a 3 week reprieve so the federal workers can be paid and to try to get everyone back to the table to negotiate a deal. He said if a deal is not reached in 3 weeks that he would either shut down the government again or declare an emergency and go around congress for the wall. I am glad the workers can get paid but this is not over by any means.


The wall is over. Trump's position was that the government would be shut down until he got money for the wall. Pelosi's position is reopening the government without funding for the wall. Pelosi got her way. Trump surrendered. If Trump didn't surrender, his base wouldn't be howling. Hannity's listeners who called in today were very upset with Trump. The Republican Congress doesn't have the stomach for another shutdown, so it's not happening. Declaring an emergency for the wall will get legally overturned in all likelihood (even if it goes to the Supreme Court), and if it doesn't, then it will set a precedent for a Democratic president to have tremendous power to declare an emergency over climate change, a much more real emergency. Republicans realize that and so have warned Trump against going this route.

That you admire doing "a lot of harm to immigrants" is pretty scary. That you hate people enough to wish them harm? What is that?



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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,650



    Quote:
    Trump surrendered to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats and reopened the government with no funding for the wall. His base feels betrayed with Ann Coulter calling Trump the "biggest wimp ever to serve as President of the United States." With IRS staff not showing up for work, Trump was about to get the entire country far more irate as tax refunds would be arriving late if the shutdown continued. Additionally McConnell told Trump that he couldn't hold the Republicans together on the shutdown any longer. Republican Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson blamed Mitch McConnell for letting the government shutdown go on for so long while a poll in Wisconsin showed that 49% of Wisconsinites absolutely will not vote for Trump in 2020 to 27% who would. Trump's approval was falling despite his bully pulpit and fruitless prime time address. All the suffering and financial costs that Trump caused with the shutdown was in vain - Trump's inexperience and incompetence at its finest.


We're still in the middle of this thing. "Victory" for either side is still three weeks away.

Nothing has been done on the immigration issue for how many presidents now? 5? 6? I'm pretty sure you have to go back to Reagan's amnesty of 1986.

So I'm predicting nothing magical is going to happen in the next 3 weeks. Wanting to avoid a second Shutdown the PTB will then claim "they are making progress" and extend the extension to September 1st (next fiscal year).

At that point no legislation will have gotten out of Congress but everyone will have moved on to the next Cause Celeb. Then you can proclaim "victory", but really with nothing getting done everyone has lost, citizens and non-citizens alike.

Our politicians are stuck in a never ending cycle of playing to the "next election" (even when those elections are 2, or 4 years off). No one is willing to take a stand on the tough issues that will alienate potential voters at the "next election".

I used to think that the idea of term limits was silliness, now I'm not so sure.






KATS latest read: Unlikely General: "Mad" Anthony Wayne and the Battle for America by Mary Stockwell
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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,835



    Quote:
    Trump surrendered to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats and reopened the government with no funding for the wall. His base feels betrayed with Ann Coulter calling Trump the "biggest wimp ever to serve as President of the United States." With IRS staff not showing up for work, Trump was about to get the entire country far more irate as tax refunds would be arriving late if the shutdown continued. Additionally McConnell told Trump that he couldn't hold the Republicans together on the shutdown any longer. Republican Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson blamed Mitch McConnell for letting the government shutdown go on for so long while a poll in Wisconsin showed that 49% of Wisconsinites absolutely will not vote for Trump in 2020 to 27% who would. Trump's approval was falling despite his bully pulpit and fruitless prime time address. All the suffering and financial costs that Trump caused with the shutdown was in vain - Trump's inexperience and incompetence at its finest.

In addition, he was facing a shut-down of the airline industry, since the unpaid federal workers in that industry were calling in sick en masse. That would be billions lost per day, and I imagine the President started to get phone calls from CEOs across the country (or world) demanding he back down. If he shuts down the government again in three weeks it will be the same thing. Game set and match to the Democrats.

Trump was elected because his supporters liked that he wasn't a Washington insider, but here's where he pays the price. Without the House, he won't be able to get anything done because he doesn't know the system. He can't count votes, or stay in touch with every Congressman and Senator to find out what they need to say yes to a bill. His attempt to play hardball on immigration resulted in a humiliation.

Trump's best bet is to mobilize the Vice President, who DOES know the system and does know how to get things done. But my guess is that Trump's ego won't let him hand that much power to his successor. Then people will say that Trump's successes were really Pence's successes, and Donald can't allow that.


    Quote:
    In addition to all that, now Trump's campaign chair Paul Manafort has been convicted, Trump's deputy campaign chair Rick Gates has pleaded guilty, Trump's national security advisor has pleaded guilty, his personal lawyer of 12 years Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty, and Trump's most loyal advisor Roger Stone has been charged with crimes. Mueller is closing in.

Yes, it's clear this is a sinking ship. Rudy Gulliani isn't helping - every day he reveals more complicity in Russian collusion. It's an astounding time.






And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Dark Marvel


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,233



    Quote:
    Who cares if he gets re elected or not. He still has 2 more years in power and he can still do alot more good things. We will see what happens. I never expected him to be elected to begin with. I look at Trump as nothing but a hero. He kept Hilary Clinton out of The White House and that was so great. He also stood up to those NFL players who disrespected the national anthem and helped generate massive amounts of hate towards them that no other President would have done. He has also made life much tougher for so many immigrants even without a wall. I hope he shuts down the government again in 3 weeks if no deal is reached and I dont care how low his rating goes.



***I think he cares. I think the vast majority of his fans do.(Trump 2020/MAGA 2020 merch and sound bites notwithstanding.) Him shutting down the government literally does nothing but hurt him. Him shutting it down this first time around didn't help him at all...I don't see why a second one would be any different. He is literally hurting Americans when he does that.






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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 2,654




    Quote:
    Who cares if he gets re elected or not. He still has 2 more years in power and he can still do alot more good things. We will see what happens. I never expected him to be elected to begin with. I look at Trump as nothing but a hero. He kept Hilary Clinton out of The White House and that was so great. He also stood up to those NFL players who disrespected the national anthem and helped generate massive amounts of hate towards them that no other President would have done. He has also made life much tougher for so many immigrants even without a wall. I hope he shuts down the government again in 3 weeks if no deal is reached and I dont care how low his rating goes.


Right on, Trump can't win them all. He's done a lot of good things, and the next will be this: another Supreme Court confirmation that will give the republicans a 6-3 advantage. It's time to stack the judiciary branch.






Never Recovered After This
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 2,654




    Quote:
    The wall is over. Trump's position was that the government would be shut down until he got money for the wall. Pelosi's position is reopening the government without funding for the wall. Pelosi got her way. Trump surrendered. If Trump didn't surrender, his base wouldn't be howling. Hannity's listeners who called in today were very upset with Trump. The Republican Congress doesn't have the stomach for another shutdown, so it's not happening. Declaring an emergency for the wall will get legally overturned in all likelihood (even if it goes to the Supreme Court), and if it doesn't, then it will set a precedent for a Democratic president to have tremendous power to declare an emergency over climate change, a much more real emergency. Republicans realize that and so have warned Trump against going this route.


Oh, it's not over. Maybe this round, maybe not, but it's not over.







Never Recovered After This
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HammerTime


Member Since: Sun Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 2,654



    Quote:
    Trump surrendered to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats and reopened the government with no funding for the wall. His base feels betrayed with Ann Coulter calling Trump the "biggest wimp ever to serve as President of the United States." With IRS staff not showing up for work, Trump was about to get the entire country far more irate as tax refunds would be arriving late if the shutdown continued. Additionally McConnell told Trump that he couldn't hold the Republicans together on the shutdown any longer. Republican Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson blamed Mitch McConnell for letting the government shutdown go on for so long while a poll in Wisconsin showed that 49% of Wisconsinites absolutely will not vote for Trump in 2020 to 27% who would. Trump's approval was falling despite his bully pulpit and fruitless prime time address. All the suffering and financial costs that Trump caused with the shutdown was in vain - Trump's inexperience and incompetence at its finest.


And still!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XuSp1uptVw


    Quote:
    In addition to all that, now Trump's campaign chair Paul Manafort has been convicted, Trump's deputy campaign chair Rick Gates has pleaded guilty, Trump's national security advisor has pleaded guilty, his personal lawyer of 12 years Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty, and Trump's most loyal advisor Roger Stone has been charged with crimes. Mueller is closing in.


Dems got nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjmKMv4yL9s




Never Recovered After This
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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,743


>


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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,017



The next shutdown will add even more money to the wall project.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,205




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,743


>


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,195









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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145


I mean there is little to stop him from doing it again in a few weeks, but it was something. Grahm is apparently trying to talk him in to putting it with the debt ceiling. So, another hostage taking situation. Build a stretch of the wall or the country defaults.

Or he declares a national emergency to do it, even though his pretense are lies.

And the numbers in general of people who will for sure vote for Trump vs will not vote for him are striking. I think I saw numbers in the mid to upper 50's today (56-57%) vs like 28-30% of those who would vote for him.

It is not good, as those were reflective when Obama was president. It depends a bit on who the Dems elect but the general electorate, seems pretty sick of Trump.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145


It would also probably have legal challenges. It is possible, particularly if he used the army, that it could get held up for some time. Then could just be taken back anyway. It would be pointless. Other than PR.

Particularly when he was undersold by the intelligence community recently. The PR would only be to get love from the base. Which is all Trump does.




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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,017







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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,743



    Quote:







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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145


He could, but not sure that is a great thing to do for the country. Trump has flat out admitted before that he will do it because Congress will not give him what he wants. It is not at all clear that the border is in any state of emergency.

Trump's own words and statements are in flux about that. He has said it is secured and unsecured at the same time. And his own administration has undercut his scariest statements about drugs and violence. It is not that they are not happening but they are not happening in the ways indicated.

So, if he declares a national emergency to get his policy dreams done, that allows future presidents to do it too. For programs they like less.

This would be the first time, at least that I can think of, that this would be done for political reasons. The last one that I remember was Bush Jr. And that was around 9/11. Which was a national emergency by all accounts.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145


Maybe I am wrong, but could FEMA build a wall? Seems like a gross misuse of them. Given how they withdraw from disaster sites before things are made permanent most of the time anyway.

If they started to go around building a wall, that is an emergency in Trump's statements only, I think that would make FEMA look more like an immigration force than a body is supposed to be for disaster relief.

Particularly when Trump threatened to cut off aid to help with wild fires. The optics would be horrible.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,743



    Quote:
    Maybe I am wrong, but could FEMA build a wall? Seems like a gross misuse of them. Given how they withdraw from disaster sites before things are made permanent most of the time anyway.



    Quote:
    If they started to go around building a wall, that is an emergency in Trump's statements only, I think that would make FEMA look more like an immigration force than a body is supposed to be for disaster relief.



    Quote:
    Particularly when Trump threatened to cut off aid to help with wild fires. The optics would be horrible.


I had heard FEMA could be called in because of the dangerous crisis on the border. Trump could use the Democrats words against them (all the suffering families and children) and then spin it. Also something about the funds could not be blocked by Congress nor would they need to e paid back.

It might look bad...but its not possible to tie it up i courts etc...


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145


Sure it would, you would challenge proper use of FEMA under the law.

And what dangerous emergency at the border? Why is it you take the Trump administration at face value when most of their facts on the issue are embellishments or outright lies.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jan/24/fact-checking-donald-trumps-false-and-misleading-c/

Does not mean there are not problems, but this whole there is a major crisis is mostly of the administrations making. And historically, is not as bad as what George W Bush and others had to deal with.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,743



    Quote:
    Sure it would, you would challenge proper use of FEMA under the law.



    Quote:
    And what dangerous emergency at the border? Why is it you take the Trump administration at face value when most of their facts on the issue are embellishments or outright lies.



    Quote:
    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2019/jan/24/fact-checking-donald-trumps-false-and-misleading-c/



    Quote:
    Does not mean there are not problems, but this whole there is a major crisis is mostly of the administrations making. And historically, is not as bad as what George W Bush and others had to deal with.


They are lies and embellishments from both sides.

If you had seen though I was saying trump could misuse and embellish on the lefts own embellishments for his agenda.

That photo of the woman crossing the border with 2 children and tear gas etc...the reality wasn't the image the left mass media was portraying at all. I was saying trump could twist things like this and act like he is preventing such a crisis again.

All either side does is spin the truth these days.


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