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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,487


It’s a topic that’s been debated to death, argued and fussed over, but that’s really not what I’m trying to do here. Just trying to provide a lens thru which I hope some can see what blacks mean when we talk about institutional racism—that almost subconscious, biased instinct to see two people fighting, note that one is black and go “This is who I need to tackle, pin to the ground and handcuff!”

https://youtu.be/6hqWMHmahTQ

The white kid (later confirmed to be Latino) was never restrained, even after literally putting his hands up expecting to be cuffed..




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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


I love this. The black kid struck first (both pushing and punching). Two cops converged. The male cop tackled one, the female cop threw the other on the couch and confirmed that he was willing to be subdued. Basically, this is more of a difference in how male and female cops operate; not institutional racism. Plus, the black kid struck first, the other kid defended himself, so it all worked out.

For once, I’d like to see it where the black person isn’t the instigator before everyone whines.


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566


Though it's clearly racist. What I think we want to show with institutional racism is the ways in which black people (and other non whites) are disadvantaged based on a set of biased institutional incentives or deprivation of material or cultural resources. It's not to say by any means that this might not be the consequence of some kind of institutional racism--at the level of say the hiring practices or the training with this police department for instance--but the reason I say that this maybe not the best examples is that instituional racism is usually counterposed with things like conscious racism, ideological racism, or personal racism (as some examples.) So in other words, this may just come down to the personal racial biases of these particular officers. And if we think of institutional racism this way it may give people the idea that it's about the conscious feelings and attitudes that happen to me floating around people's heads at any given time. I think with institutional racism the idea is we're talking about a system of incentives and power distribution such that even if (say) all the white people in said system are well-intended and don't harbor any conscious racial animus, you'd still end up with racist outcomes, i.e. violence and discrimination against black people (and other non white people.)


cheers,
---the late great Donald Blake


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566


For once, I’d like to see it where the black person isn’t the instigator before everyone whines.


LGDB: I don't understand what this sentence is supposed to mean. Can you explain what you mean here for me please?



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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


I thought it was clear enough. Surprised that I don’t feel the need to bend over to these endless attacks against whites? I don’t need to pander to any ethnic group. I’ve been the recipient of way more aggression from blacks than vice-versa. Tired of not being able to call it out.

Here’s a question for you, now. Is truth ever racist?


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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


A whole lot of dribble and nonsense. There’s no institutional racism. There’s simply evolution, and reacting to our natural instincts that evolved through millions of years. And now, democrats want to reverse this.


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566





Here's what I think is interesting. I think at one level you want to sound uninhibited and as if you say whatever you think the consequence be damned, but it appears you're also being very careful here.

"I've been the recipient of way more aggression from blacks than vice versa."

My first thought is maybe you're doing something to deserve it. I don't know. I can't really dispute your personal story or experiences. What I can say is if you take one step towards extrapolating from those experiences to saying absolutely ANYTHING negative about black people generally, then I'll ban you more quickly than the time it takes for you to say my name in your head. And if you keep flirting with this line even without technically going over the line, I'll ban you just to make an example of you for others.


Is the truth ever racist? If it was I'd ban it from this board just as quickly.


cheers,
---the late great Donald Blake


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566




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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


I added the context to explain why I say what I do. It’s not like I’m some supremacist that believes in a superior race. I stand by my experiences and observations and the power of my brain to recognize truth and never buckle to SJW weaklings.


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566




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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,487


Oh, it’s definitely more of a conscious thing. I’d like to say that most cops (and most people in general) aren’t racist in the overt sense; however, perhaps some still possess certain biases at a subconscious level, and these biases come into play (usually during extreme situations) without a person even realizing they’re there.

I guess the reason I see it more as an institutional thing is because these individual biases tend morph to the point where they become department culture. This culture includes everything from how cops are hired and trained (as you said), to how crimes are investigated, what’s deemed appropriate force, etc.



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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


Do you believe that if the statistics reversed, where white people started committing the highest percent of violent crimes, that cops (or people in general), would not at a subconscious level feel differently and act accordingly? Let’s say, for example, that white Canadians started becoming rampant terrorists, and that there’s a few white Canadians who proudly fly their Canadian flag in my neighborhood. Is it unreasonable for me at a subconscious level to not feel my Spidey-Sense tingling? And do you think that just because they’re white, I’d have feelings no different than how I view other whites? Have you ever seen the movie Canadian Bacon?


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,487



    Quote:
    I love this. The black kid struck first (both pushing and punching). Two cops converged. The male cop tackled one, the female cop threw the other on the couch and confirmed that he was willing to be subdued. Basically, this is more of a difference in how male and female cops operate; not institutional racism. Plus, the black kid struck first, the other kid defended himself, so it all worked out.


For context, per reports, the Latino kid was bullying other kids in the mall. What you see here is a black teen defending a friend by standing up to a bully. What you also see (contrary to the nonsense you say below) is the Latino kid point his finger in the black kids face, a clear act of instigating.

All of this is immaterial though. Unless the cops were off somewhere with binoculars and saw the whole thing unfold, then there was no way for them to know what lead to events. From their perspective, two teens are fighting, with one (the noticeably bigger Latino) atop the other (black teen). You’re protestations that male cops just react differently doesn’t hold water for the simple fact that at no point was the Latino kid cuffed. What f’ed up interpretation of justice do you follow where you think it’s okay for a cops to see two teens fighting, tackle and cuff the one already on his back getting pummeled, while letting the teen who was on top doing the pummeling just chill on the comfy couch?

Here’s a vid of the Latino kid himself saying he didn’t understand why the cops reacted the way they did:

https://youtu.be/ZbNFS3H3x3Q


    Quote:
    For once, I’d like to see it where the black person isn’t the instigator before everyone whines.


This silliness doesn’t even merit further response.





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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,487



    Quote:
    Do you believe that if the statistics reversed, where white people started committing the highest percent of violent crimes, that cops (or people in general), would not at a subconscious level feel differently and act accordingly? Let’s say, for example, that white Canadians started becoming rampant terrorists, and that there’s a few white Canadians who proudly fly their Canadian flag in my neighborhood. Is it unreasonable for me at a subconscious level to not feel my Spidey-Sense tingling? And do you think that just because they’re white, I’d have feelings no different than how I view other whites? Have you ever seen the movie Canadian Bacon?


At least, it seems, we agree that there is racial bias at play here.

Obviously personal biases can’t be outlawed or mandated-against at a civilian level. But when you’re employed in the public arena, particularly as a public servant, you need to be mindful of those biases and make sure they don’t come into play when performing your job. Otherwise you end up treating people not as individuals but as statistics, and you might unduly tackle and restrain a black teen who had nothing to do with contributing to those statistics.





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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021



    Quote:
    For context, per reports, the Latino kid was bullying other kids in the mall. What you see here is a black teen defending a friend by standing up to a bully. What you also see (contrary to the nonsense you say below) is the Latino kid point his finger in the black kids face, a clear act of instigating.


You are not entitled to push or strike someone if they put their finger near your face during an argument. Do you understand? That’s the law.


    Quote:
    All of this is immaterial though. Unless the cops were off somewhere with binoculars and saw the whole thing unfold, then there was no way for them to know what lead to events. From their perspective, two teens are fighting, with one (the noticeably bigger Latino) atop the other (black teen). You’re protestations that male cops just react differently doesn’t hold water for the simple fact that at no point was the Latino kid cuffed. What f’ed up interpretation of justice do you follow where you think it’s okay for a cops to see two teens fighting, tackle and cuff the one already on his back getting pummeled, while letting the teen who was on top doing the pummeling just chill on the comfy couch?


If it was two male cops, both would have been tackled. The lady didn’t cuff him because he was pointing at the other guy, probably saying he was attacked first and just defending himself. The male officer relied on his partner’s judgement to assess the situation, and so did nothing more.


    Quote:
    Here’s a vid of the Latino kid himself saying he didn’t understand why the cops reacted the way they did:


He’s just a scared kid is why, looking out for himself to avoid getting doxxed as a racist.


    Quote:
    This silliness doesn’t even merit further response.


Is it silly because it’s not true, or silly because I’m not bending to your narrative?




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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021



    Quote:
    At least, it seems, we agree that there is racial bias at play here.


We’re not agreeing on that for this particular case. I told you already that it’s a male vs. female way of handling things. Males pounce, females don’t.


    Quote:
    Obviously personal biases can’t be outlawed or mandated-against at a civilian level. But when you’re employed in the public arena, particularly as a public servant, you need to be mindful of those biases and make sure they don’t come into play when performing your job. Otherwise you end up treating people not as individuals but as statistics, and you might unduly tackle and restrain a black teen who had nothing to do with contributing to those statistics.


I disagree that they shouldn’t come into play. For example, during 911 - they were randomly frisking people, including pregnant white mothers boarding planes. I don’t agree that we need to be stupid about who are the best candidates to frisk. You see, I deal in facts and reason. Democrats deal in emotion and so are willing to chance that more likely candidates for terrorism are boarded but unchecked.




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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,487



    Quote:

      Quote:
      At least, it seems, we agree that there is racial bias at play here.



    Quote:
    We’re not agreeing on that for this particular case. I told you already that it’s a male vs. female way of handling things. Males pounce, females don’t.


And again, this doesn’t hold water. The male cop made contact with the teens at exactly the same time as the female cop. Why is he cuffing the teen on his back receiving blows, and not the teen on top delivering those blows? You even see the “males pounce” male cop pull the Latino kid aside so he could get to the black kid.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Obviously personal biases can’t be outlawed or mandated-against at a civilian level. But when you’re employed in the public arena, particularly as a public servant, you need to be mindful of those biases and make sure they don’t come into play when performing your job. Otherwise you end up treating people not as individuals but as statistics, and you might unduly tackle and restrain a black teen who had nothing to do with contributing to those statistics.



    Quote:
    I disagree that they shouldn’t come into play. For example, during 911 - they were randomly frisking people, including pregnant white mothers boarding planes. I don’t agree that we need to be stupid about who are the best candidates to frisk. You see, I deal in facts and reason. Democrats deal in emotion and so are willing to chance that more likely candidates for terrorism are boarded but unchecked.


We made a bunch of dumb decisions in response to the tragedy of 9/11 that are still plaguing us to this day. This is hardly apropos for arguing in support of bias in policing. By this token Jan 6 (along with most attempts/acts of terrorism here in the US) should’ve put white conservatives on every law enforcement’s radar permanently.





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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021



    Quote:
    And again, this doesn’t hold water. The male cop made contact with the teens at exactly the same time as the female cop. Why is he cuffing the teen on his back receiving blows, and not the teen on top delivering those blows? You even see the “males pounce” male cop pull the Latino kid aside so he could get to the black kid.


There are two cops, one for each fighter. A cop can only tackle one at a time. Had it been two male cops, both would have pounced and handcuffed the two kids. The pouncing cop relied on his partner to use her judgement. When she didn't handcuff, he trusted that she confirmed it was okay. It's that simple.


    Quote:
    We made a bunch of dumb decisions in response to the tragedy of 9/11 that are still plaguing us to this day. This is hardly apropos for arguing in support of bias in policing. By this token Jan 6 (along with most attempts/acts of terrorism here in the US) should’ve put white conservatives on every law enforcement’s radar permanently.


I don't support bias in policing as a starting point, or as part of an organization's policies and procedures. I just understand that there's good reason to have biases through personal experiences, and to be allowed to act on those instincts. If a cop experiences a disproportionate number of black vs. other race crimes, our brains cannot just be deprogrammed to ignore this observation. Now, that doesn't mean a black person should be stopped if you see them driving a Rolls Royce, but if your past experiences in drug busts and stolen vehicles have all observed that recovered Rolls Royces were always found in black ghettos, then it's not irrational for a cop to be suspicious of a black person driving one in one those ghettos.

What's most disappointing to me is that I hear far too little from blacks on ways to unite on improving their position vs. only uniting when it's in opposition to something. There are a few who try, and I commend them, but they get castigated and so it's an endless, vicious cycle of low self-esteem and never feeling equal to everyone else through merit. I really wish it wasn't this way, but I don't see this ever changing until they unite on improving their position: which also means accountability, not just empowerment.


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bd2999 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


It is an example anyway but it is a problem. I think the debate is always to what extent in a given situation and I think it is hard to figure out.

Racism is a big problem still but the degree is variable. Even with Jim Crow and the like those supporting it did not think they were doing wrong, just supporting their way of life and such. Did not make it right then either and very wrong in hindsight although some may not see it that way.

It is hard to combat the sort of profiling indicated here without some sort of change in people as a whole and that is never going to happen to the whole but hopefully it happens for more and more people in the world.

I am honestly more aghast at those pushing "white replacement" and other things and how it is becoming more mainstream and the mental gymnastics to defend it or that kids can opt out of things that make them feel uncomfortable because they are white.

Madness.




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 2,936




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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


I bet you think I'm a racist.

So, describe what kind of racist you think I am. Do I wear a white hood? Am I a supremacist? I'm interested in your perception.


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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 2,936



    Quote:
    I bet you think I'm a racist.


What gave you that idea? ;\)


    Quote:
    So, describe what kind of racist you think I am. Do I wear a white hood? Am I a supremacist? I'm interested in your perception.


I don't discriminate between types of racists. You are in their huddle or you're not.




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FreeKyle


Member Since: Thu Nov 11, 2021


That’s so funny, cockroaches are all the same to me, too.


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Late Great Donald Blake 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,566


This only gonna move into a direction nobody wants to go in. Let's just chill shall we?

LGDB


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Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,176



    Quote:
    I bet you think I'm a racist.



    Quote:
    So, describe what kind of racist you think I am. Do I wear a white hood? Am I a supremacist? I'm interested in your perception.


Why would anyone think you're a racist? I want quote you correctly here: "if the statistics reversed, where white people started committing the highest percent of violent crimes, that cops (or people in general), would not at a subconscious level feel differently and act accordingly?" In other words, since a minority of black people are criminals, police should treat all black people as if they are criminals. That is essentially what you're arguing here.

In addition, you also stated: "Let’s say, for example, that white Canadians started becoming rampant terrorists, and that there’s a few white Canadians who proudly fly their Canadian flag in my neighborhood. Is it unreasonable for me at a subconscious level to not feel my Spidey-Sense tingling?" So again, you're arguing that since a minority of Muslims are terrorists, it is perfectly fine to be afraid of all Muslims.

It is irrational to believe that the actions of the minority should dictate how the majority is treated. Some would even say that it is racist thinking. You're probably not racist. You're more likely a self-centered a-hole who can't be bothered to care about something that doesn't effect you. Or at least can't be bothered to care about people that you can't identify with.


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bd2999 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        At least, it seems, we agree that there is racial bias at play here.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        We’re not agreeing on that for this particular case. I told you already that it’s a male vs. female way of handling things. Males pounce, females don’t.



    Quote:
    And again, this doesn’t hold water. The male cop made contact with the teens at exactly the same time as the female cop. Why is he cuffing the teen on his back receiving blows, and not the teen on top delivering those blows? You even see the “males pounce” male cop pull the Latino kid aside so he could get to the black kid.



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Obviously personal biases can’t be outlawed or mandated-against at a civilian level. But when you’re employed in the public arena, particularly as a public servant, you need to be mindful of those biases and make sure they don’t come into play when performing your job. Otherwise you end up treating people not as individuals but as statistics, and you might unduly tackle and restrain a black teen who had nothing to do with contributing to those statistics.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I disagree that they shouldn’t come into play. For example, during 911 - they were randomly frisking people, including pregnant white mothers boarding planes. I don’t agree that we need to be stupid about who are the best candidates to frisk. You see, I deal in facts and reason. Democrats deal in emotion and so are willing to chance that more likely candidates for terrorism are boarded but unchecked.



    Quote:
    We made a bunch of dumb decisions in response to the tragedy of 9/11 that are still plaguing us to this day. This is hardly apropos for arguing in support of bias in policing. By this token Jan 6 (along with most attempts/acts of terrorism here in the US) should’ve put white conservatives on every law enforcement’s radar permanently.


Really, even before that some folks of that description should have been in the cross hairs. Militia groups and soverign citizens can be among the worst law enforcement can encounter.

Although in some places they have contacts among local Sheriff's and so on highlighting the overlap in some of these things that makes the problems even worse in the end.

Hell, I think in Portland there was even a police officer who contacted some of these folks causing problems so they could get out before the major police presence showed up so they could say they were never there or causing a problem at all.

It is sickening stuff in the grand scheme of things that is for sure.

Hardly unique to conservatives or applies to all of them, but there are major concerns with regards to violence or domestic terrorism in the fold at the extreme and one can easily argue it is becoming more of the mainstream position.






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