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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,390


I get the Magog was the Liefeldesque anti-hero that was the strawman "wrong path" super anti-hero.

But the world turns to hell because some guy kills the Joker who royally has it coming, to put it mildly?! If anything, the world would go to hell because everyone is too cowardly or feckless to render justice! That would be a sign of a total decline and collapse of the system!

I get that Magog's action is a contras to the the belief of old heroes of Superman's generation that all life is sacred. But it IS because life is sacred that the Joker should die. Can some people not wrap their head around this idea?

If I were the public (or Lois or one of the dead Planet staff) I'd be disgusted w/Superman's self-righteousness in the face of their MURDERS!

The whole shtick of villains coming back over and over again is a conceit of a monthly genre. How it turned into a "moral message" that adults take seriously is beyond me.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    I get the Magog was the Liefeldesque anti-hero that was the strawman "wrong path" super anti-hero.



    Quote:
    But the world turns to hell because some guy kills the Joker who royally has it coming, to put it mildly?! If anything, the world would go to hell because everyone is too cowardly or feckless to render justice! That would be a sign of a total decline and collapse of the system!



    Quote:
    I get that Magog's action is a contras to the the belief of old heroes of Superman's generation that all life is sacred. But it IS because life is sacred that the Joker should die. Can some people not wrap their head around this idea?



    Quote:
    If I were the public (or Lois or one of the dead Planet staff) I'd be disgusted w/Superman's self-righteousness in the face of their MURDERS!



    Quote:
    The whole shtick of villains coming back over and over again is a conceit of a monthly genre. How it turned into a "moral message" that adults take seriously is beyond me.


I agree. But it's comics. In comics it's ok to trick children and tell them mass murderers don't deserve to be killed and people deserve second chances. It's like Santa Claus...you want them to believe the lie until they grow out of it.







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Superman's Pal

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,748


I always wondered why the Gotham criminal justice system couldn't get the Joker executed. I understand that he's labelled insane instead of criminally liable, but after he's escaped from the rubber room for the umpteenth time and murdered people in the escape and murdered more on the outside, wouldn't they consider some special circumstances and execute him? I'd say it's more the duty of the state than of Batman or Superman to do the chore.



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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,390



    Quote:
    I'd say it's more the duty of the state than of Batman or Superman to do the chore.


I'd agree with that on a literal level with a couple of caveats:

1) Superheroes (like Superman) often represent "the state" on some abstract level; or actually work with the approval of the state. Superman is deputized and recognized pubic figure. Maybe offing the Joker after he's captured is too far (maybe), but to kill the Joker in self-defense or defense of others is a no-brainer.

2) One of the whole mythical reasons for vigilantes is the need for a lone individual to render justice when society and the state has collapsed into total corruption.




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D. Strange


Member Since: Tue Sep 19, 2017
Posts: 272


1. I never really liked Kingdom Come as much as most people. Its fine, but I think any real exploration of characters in this world (minus Spectre and the reverend)was overlooked. I beilieve if any one other than Alex Ross drew it, it would have been held in less regard.

2. Superman is not intended to be fully right either. He throws people in a gulag with no due process. That was Batman's side's purpose. They represented the humanity Supes lost with Lois, he and the Justice League had become sevants to a concept.

3. Just because Superman is wrong, doesn't make MAgog right.

It isn't THAT he killed Joker, it is where and why.

Any work of fiction will be in some way reflective of the society that created it, even if it is in opposition. That needs to be stated first and foremost.

Joker was on the way to trial. The thing that the Constitution says we are all entitled tom regardless of our history. Even the architects of the Holocaust got a trial.

Joker was in custody, at that moment he was not a threat. When ever anyone, cop, soldier, or civilian kills someone, no matter how vile it has to justified. hat is the point.

It isn't the state that superheroes are connected to, it is society. Society has dictated that the Joker should not be killed. Through elected officials, a system funded by citizens, and presumably a jury of citizens.

Time and again, courts made those calls. Whether one agrees or not isn't the point. There is a system in place, where everyone is guaranteed a fair trial.

Take George Zimmerman as an example. Many people agreed he was innocent, and many disagreed. So, we all have to live with it. We4 have to live with Manson not getting a death penalty (do we even know if Gotham is in a state that has one).

You also can't kill him, even if you truly believe that he was guilty, you can't kill him, and you can't imprison him yourself.

The importance of a society to have control over punishment is paramount. The military is controlled by our elected officials. Police are civil servants, Judges elected or appointed by those who are. The hiring and firing power lies in the hands of elected officials. We ultimately have control of such systems, as long was we pay attention voice are opinion, and can make pour case to enough people.

The people of Gotham could handle the Joker in a myriad of ways. They could hire better prosecutes. They could better finance Arkham, to make escape impossible, the could have them hire shrinks who can actually help patients.

They have made choices, all be them fictional.

The major difference is between Magog and say Batman or Spider-Man, is that the latter stop crimes. Which is not illegal, crimes in process at the time.

All three however, are not governed bodies. There is no accountability. However one could draw parallels to them ant the people who took apart the car of the rapist and killer of Kitty Genovies, allowing him to be captured during a later crime.

The desire for someone to stop a crime in process is one thing. It may not be advised, but if done properly is allowed. Some communities even have citizen arrests.

Someone taking the decision to kill into there hands is not. Especially while they are in custody, when you can't even strike a person.

The desirte for such a thing to to have an action... the ultimate action.. to pass final judgement, without our hands ever getting dirty, with it outside of the consent of society disturbing, and (I AM sorry) and act of moral cowardice, certainly a lack of faith in what you financially support and i some small way have say over.

In short (I know WAY too late), Superman would be against it because his whole thing is "Truth, Justice, and the American Way," and it flies in teh face of the last two words. It also flies in the face of the second. Magog committed an act of revenge... not justice. He prevented justice fro even the possibility of being served. He had no idea how a this court (ini MEtropolis mind you) would have acted.

And in a larger point, in the Dc Universe, the very power of GOD dictated Joker shouldn't be killed. In Spectre vol. 3 #51 (thank you DC wikia for the number reminder), The Spectre, who once slayed all but two citizens of a nation in the same series, deemed beyond his wrath.

Does Joker deserve to die? Hmmm possibly, but Magog was in the wrong to be the one to do it under the circumstances.


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