DC Universe >> View Thread

Posted with Google Chrome 80.0.3987.122 on Windows 10
Author
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917



Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 39,900



I have no ill-will towards the man himself, he has always struck me as very genial and friendly. And yet his management style... the dark cynical type of event storytelling he sponsored, that did a lot of damage to the DC Universe over his reign with the Publisher.

The reboots. The regular reverse-standards in decision making. The seeming policy that arose in regularly selecting and butchering of popular and bright characters. All of it eventually got to the point where it felt like the Publisher was out of ideas... it needed fresh blood and fresh ideas. And that was Years ago!

So will Dan Didio's departure mean anything in real terms? I would like to think that Geoff Johns would step in to take a control, with Jim Lee that would be interesting as the two could bring some stability to the line and above all a consistency in its tone and output. I would like to imagine a search for new talent certainly, but talent that could become involved in a collaborative effort rather than the more isolationist approach creatives have tended to operate in in recent years.


Dan Didio… I wonder what his legacy will end up being. \(euh\)




Posted with Google Chrome 70.0.3538.102 on Windows 10
Ed Love


Location: North Carolina
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 871


Maybe it was Johns writing what Didio wanted, but I think he often had a hand in some of the worse and violent stories and revamps that came out of Didio's tenure. I think he was halfway decent on Aquaman, but he still tends to have 3 bad ideas for every good one.




Visit my Golden-Age Encyclopedias and web pages: http://www.herogoggles.com
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 39,900



I agree with you.

It is hard to gauge the effects that Dan Didio had on Geoff Johns over time, and vise-versa, but Johns' style and quality did change significantly during Didio's tenure as Publisher. And certainly not for the better.
Without a doubt Geoff Johns' writing style and especially its tone changed over time, and in as much as anything the complete abandonment of established continuity with 2011's New-52 had a very noticeable effect on what it was Johns was putting out as it took away one of the very elements that made him a success in the first place and helped guide his writing - the element of tradition that these characters and books all had. By restarting it all from scratch, and making its distinctly darker in its tone, it took away the established continuity of characters and demanded writers think their approach from the ground up and invent new approaches. In many ways darker approaches at that.

But While Johns landed with the restarted Green Lantern title and Aquaman it would be subsequent work on the Justice League title where his worst traits came to be manifested in my view and his weaknesses exposed. But was that down to the political climate behind the scenes at DC that were directing the New-52 imperative, or was it a willing choice from Johns to seize on the more vicious and grim elements of Dan Didio's approach? The 'Rebirth' reboot seemed to suggest it might be the case yes, but as yet Geoff Johns has yet to demonstrate that his writing has recovered from the darker turn it took under the New-52. But I'm digressing...

I do wonder whether a Didio-free DC Comics, if put under Geoff Johns & Jim Lee's management, might lead to some better stability and a greater emphasis on creative talent being assigned correctly. It may be that Johns is too busy with his role on the Media side to spend the time necessary on taking charge of what appears in print, but either way this is a change I do feel relieved about as for so long now DC has just staggered along as a comics line, repeating the same formulaes and rebooting as the easy option rather than the creative option. Getting a new manager with a new perspective might be the shot in the arm the comics line needs right now. It needs that new vision. \(coffee\)




Posted with Google Chrome 70.0.3538.102 on Windows 10
Bobby H


Member Since: Fri Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 500


I was never a big fan, but unfortunately I'm also quite cynical. I have a bad feeling that his replacement will make me long for the good old days of Dan DiDio.

To me his legacy will be bringing back Barry Allen unnecessarily, more or less neutering the impact of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Also in his legacy would be the New 52 fiasco, and turning the majority of DC's heroes into snarling jerks (but the latter might not be entirely his fault).

The one good thing he did (IMO) was giving the go-ahead to bring back Hal Jordan, even though I think Geoff Johns' run should have ended with Hal dying/being permanently retired, thus giving the character a truly great send-off instead of what they did to him in the 90s. I liked Kyle Rayner but Hal and the Guardians had to come back if only to erase the mess that was made of them in 1994.


Posted with Google Chrome 77.0.3865.121 on Windows 10
Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 39,900




    Quote:
    I was never a big fan, but unfortunately I'm also quite cynical. I have a bad feeling that his replacement will make me long for the good old days of Dan DiDio.

You could be right, we will have to hope for better days though... it's all we want and all we can do to want better things to be coming.

In a sense, and on reflection, when I think of Dan Didio's management I can look at the naked and unashamed cynicism and meanness that powered the NEW-52 era and the optimism and return of hope that made 'Rebirth' so good to be there fore - so many titles and characters benefitted from Geoff Johns' management and input of 'Rebirth' that like many I was happier and more pleased with DCs output than I had been in some years. Somewhere after the first or second year though Johns' influence receded and Didio's once again ascended, and the line really suffered as a result. Today I have never been so disillusioned and bored with DCs output, not since the mid-90s have I been left so flat and deflated by what pap the company is satisfied to put out. And I have to lay that decline at Didio's door as Geoff Johns had shown so clearly what was actually possible and why it was the DC had been failing with the New-52.

I don't know whether Johns will be lured back to the chair and join Jim Lee in taking charge of the line, but it would be interesting to think as possible as these two could be just what DC needs to restore the vibrancy and quality to the line.


    Quote:
    To me his legacy will be bringing back Barry Allen unnecessarily, more or less neutering the impact of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Also in his legacy would be the New 52 fiasco, and turning the majority of DC's heroes into snarling jerks (but the latter might not be entirely his fault).

I agree completely with all of that.


    Quote:
    The one good thing he did (IMO) was giving the go-ahead to bring back Hal Jordan, even though I think Geoff Johns' run should have ended with Hal dying/being permanently retired, thus giving the character a truly great send-off instead of what they did to him in the 90s. I liked Kyle Rayner but Hal and the Guardians had to come back if only to erase the mess that was made of them in 1994.

I agree here too, it had irked me that for all of the talk of Kyle Rayner being a fresh slate Ron Marz and Kevin Dooley had no ideas whatsoever on what to replace the rich history and props of Hal's era with. All of that destruction and pain they inflicted and they showed they had no real plan at all for Kyle's new dawn, it just walked along on predictable lines and added nothing much at all to the mythos other than some welcome new villains.
How telling that they so quickly began to revisit the concepts they so completely destroyed - the Corps, the Manhunters, Hal, Power Rings, OA... in a sense it was a product of that era, the mid 90s where deconstruction and desperation overwhelmed all else.






Posted with Google Chrome 70.0.3538.102 on Windows 10
Primetime


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 751


There is a rumor going along with this:

https://cosmicbook.news/marvel-taking-over-dc-comics?amp


Posted with Google Chrome 80.0.3987.117 on Linux
JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,575


Would be coll to see the DC Trinity in Marvle, but ONLY if there were shown as still being top dogs!


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 73.0 on Linux
JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,575


DC has the best old time characters, their Trinity, add in GL, Shazam, Joker, lex, really no reason to have so many reboots, nor go that ole new 52 route!

Just get better writers and especially editors!


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 73.0 on Linux
JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,575


DC properties, in comics and in movies, rise or fall based upon how Bats and Supes are being done!


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 73.0 on Linux
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917



    Quote:
    I was never a big fan, but unfortunately I'm also quite cynical. I have a bad feeling that his replacement will make me long for the good old days of Dan DiDio.



    Quote:
    To me his legacy will be bringing back Barry Allen unnecessarily



    Quote:
    The one good thing he did (IMO) was giving the go-ahead to bring back Hal Jordan


I've never understood this ambivalence towards Barry Allen.

Yes, it's true that his book wasn't great in the 1970's and 80's but then, neither was Hal Jordan's.

I think the only reason Hal is lauded today while Barry isn't, is they didn't kill Hal in the Crisis. He survived and went on to have better stories written about him in the late 80's and 90's. Barry never had that opportunity.

But let's not forget that Hal Jordan is the only major character in DC's catalogue who makes no appearance in Crisis on Infinte Earths. Not one solitary panel features him.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 39,900




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I was never a big fan, but unfortunately I'm also quite cynical. I have a bad feeling that his replacement will make me long for the good old days of Dan DiDio.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        To me his legacy will be bringing back Barry Allen unnecessarily

        Quote:

          Quote:
          The one good thing he did (IMO) was giving the go-ahead to bring back Hal Jordan



    Quote:
    I've never understood this ambivalence towards Barry Allen.



    Quote:
    Yes, it's true that his book wasn't great in the 1970's and 80's but then, neither was Hal Jordan's.


I don't quite agree. Barry/Flash was a book that had not sold well for DC in many years, the problem became so worrying it led to editorial and Cary Bates deciding to dispose of Iris in order to free Barry and perhaps inject a new energy into the series. Clearly that didn't work, and for me a large part of the problem was perhaps that Cary Bates had been allowed to stay for far too long by this point and that he was joined somewhere in the issue #290's by Carmine Infantino, an artist who's work by this time was marmite and only appealed when others (like Frank McLaughlin) finished it. When Infantino began finishing his own work the result was atrocious to look at... and this went on for some years.

Green Lantern on the other hand had eventually managed to find its feet again after the O'Neill/Adams & Wolfman/Staton years to land the fresh talents of Len Wein and Dave Gibbons to inject fresh energy into the book. These two were followed by the even more impressive combination of Steve Englehart and Joe Staton (excellent in my view) and when you look at where the two books and character were by the early to mid 80s it should be no real mystery why Green Lantern was never considered for any reboot come 1985 while Barry/Flash gained the pink slip to limbo - his popularity was at rock bottom by this point in time.

We can point to the fact Barry/Flash never had the chance that Green Lantern had had with fresh new talent, and that is true. But I think on balance The Flash was always a very difficult character to write for. Julius Schwartz was always incredibly loyal to his creative talent, writers like Cary Bates were allowed to stay on a title virtually indefinitely. Fresh Modern art-styles were slow to come through. And it is no coincidence that the Crisis reboot occurred in the wake of Schwartz' eventual retirement and a Publisher finally free to embrace the modern world and adopt modern storytelling techniques to appeal to the modern audience... I imagine someone looked at the Flash and saw that Wally West was a natural successor, and just the right age and position to be able to hold up as the Successor to his mentor.

And let's be honest here, Wally West worked amazingly well. \(yes\)






Posted with Google Chrome 70.0.3538.102 on Windows 10
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917



    Quote:
    I don't quite agree. Barry/Flash was a book that had not sold well for DC in many years, the problem became so worrying it led to editorial and Cary Bates deciding to dispose of Iris in order to free Barry and perhaps inject a new energy into the series. Clearly that didn't work, and for me a large part of the problem was perhaps that Cary Bates had been allowed to stay for far too long by this point and that he was joined somewhere in the issue #290's by Carmine Infantino, an artist who's work by this time was marmite and only appealed when others (like Frank McLaughlin) finished it. When Infantino began finishing his own work the result was atrocious to look at... and this went on for some years.


This is a myth that desperately needs busting.

Flash outsold Green Lantern throughout the 1960's and 70's, to the point where Green Lantern was cancelled and spent several years in the wilderness.

Even into the early 80's both books had comparable sales. In 1981 for example they both sold around 260,000 copies. It's only in the year or two before Crisis that Flash's sales had dipped, and even then not by a great amount - only 30,000 copies less than GL. Still strong for the standards of 1985.

Post Crisis there were titles that sold less than Flash and survived, and titles that sold considerably more (JLA) that were cancelled and rebooted.

Barry Allen's demise had nothing to do with sales.

As Marv Wolfman has pointed out more than a few times over the years the decision to kill Barry came from editorial (Kahn and/or Giordano), singling him out because 'Flash of Two Worlds' had created the DC multiverse and his death would provide a symmetry to the beginning and end of the Silver/Bronze ages.


    Quote:
    We can point to the fact Barry/Flash never had the chance that Green Lantern had had with fresh new talent, and that is true. But I think on balance The Flash was always a very difficult character to write for.



    Quote:
    And let's be honest here, Wally West worked amazingly well. \(yes\)


Yes, he did. After a change to his powers (cutting his speed to the speed of sound) and a completely fresh creative team who also brought in an almost entirely new supporting cast. But Wally had been even LESS of a character than Barry right up until he takes over as Flash.

So ask yourself... What did they do that was so wonderful with Wally, that they couldn't have done for Barry?



Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,155




    Quote:
    Would be coll to see the DC Trinity in Marvle, but ONLY if there were shown as still being top dogs!


I'm not sure what you mean by top dogs, but even if Marvel owned the characters they would not be obligated to treat them better than all of their other characters. Marvel has much less of a "top dog" structure than DC.




Ben Urich


Member Since: Mon Jun 25, 2018
Posts: 564


Pushing aside the obvious point that it is a baseless rumor (because that is no fun)...


Back in the 80s, DC WAS almost farmed out to Marvel CRISIS ended up saving the company.

Worst case scenario, my guess is that is what would happen. Only an idiot would give up the rights to Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. You could have no comics, movie, TV show, or cartoon for a dcade and still make bank on merchandise.

Of course, nothing would prevent you from having another company for the actual work for a nominal fee. I just doubt Disney would do that... unless it was part of a bigger plan to buy.


Of course, they could sell off the other pieces. The trinity are some of the only ones that would have real trouble meshing into the Marvel Universe.

MAYBE Green Lantern, but Kyle was pretty much a Marvel character with DC powers. If they became mostly space-based it would work better.

Aquaman for logistic purposes with Namor.


CRISIS-ing them into Marvel would be a problem, nut having them migrate over could work. Especially if only some heroes and their direct cast come over.

You could scatter them across Marvel's timeline, sort of fill in the ever growing gap between WWII and the current age of heroes. A good solution for less popular heroes.

I mean as of now, Cap being frozen and the F.F. forming is 70 years. Why not drop off Challengers of the Unknown int eh 50s, Most of the JLI in the 90s, and Swamp Thing in the 70s? You could even set up Man-Thing as a failed attempt by the parliament of trees.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 73.0 on Windows 10
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917


AT&T would never sell any of the characters outright. Films and other merchandise bring in too much money. But they may very well license out the rights to publish comic books.

If Marvel does acquire the licence - and they have half an ounce of sense - they'll set up a completely separate line to house the DC characters. Integrating them with the Marvel universe would be risky story and continuity wise because in five or ten years they could lose that license.

DC had a similar problem in the 1980's with Captain Marvel (Shazam). They'd licensed him, published a Shazam comic from 1973 through 1978 and had started to integrate 'Earth S' into the DC multiverse. And then problems with the license cropped up, and for a while it didn't look like the Marvel Family were going to appear in Crisis. Indeed, the problem was ironed out (By DC buying the characters outright) too late for any of them to get an entry in the first incarnation of Who's Who.

Best to keep everything separate.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 39,900




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I don't quite agree. Barry/Flash was a book that had not sold well for DC in many years, the problem became so worrying it led to editorial and Cary Bates deciding to dispose of Iris in order to free Barry and perhaps inject a new energy into the series. Clearly that didn't work, and for me a large part of the problem was perhaps that Cary Bates had been allowed to stay for far too long by this point and that he was joined somewhere in the issue #290's by Carmine Infantino, an artist who's work by this time was marmite and only appealed when others (like Frank McLaughlin) finished it. When Infantino began finishing his own work the result was atrocious to look at... and this went on for some years.



    Quote:
    This is a myth that desperately needs busting.



    Quote:
    Flash outsold Green Lantern throughout the 1960's and 70's, to the point where Green Lantern was cancelled and spent several years in the wilderness.



    Quote:
    Even into the early 80's both books had comparable sales. In 1981 for example they both sold around 260,000 copies. It's only in the year or two before Crisis that Flash's sales had dipped, and even then not by a great amount - only 30,000 copies less than GL. Still strong for the standards of 1985.


I can't refute that as I don't have the sales data. I know Green Lantern was cancelled after the O'Neill/Adams run but my point of comparison was where these bools were at by the early 1980s - and what you had was one book with new and dynamic talented creators doing good work, and the other offering Cary Bates, Carmine Infantino, and a rambling aimless direction.
Good sellers do not get cancelled. I don't know for sure what sales were for The Flash by 1984 but I would be incredulous if this poor a product, along with Wonder Woman at the time, were selling comparable to Green Lantern. The distance between the quality of Green Lantern at the time and The Flash & Wonder Woman is as night is to day. The Flash by 1985 was a character who had been tarnished and run into the ground, While Green Lantern was in the midst of a major renaissance...

Think on what the Crisis and the 1986 restart was all about. It was about taking tired characters, tired books, and reinventing them for the 1980s. A fresh start. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are the publishers flagship characters and receive the most attention and care. A new Justice League is devised. Long running second-string characters Captain Marvel, Hawkman and Captain Atom are rebooted while other books and characters such as Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes and Green Lantern are maintained as was. Unchanged. Because these were books that were good sellers, and with characters that had been kept fresh and relevant, rebooting was uneccessary therefore. In light of this context then why is it any mystery that Barry Allen was a problem that DC had to deal with accordingly by this time? A character so defined by the stagnancy of Cary Bates' approach and the ugliness of Infantino's work that he had been run into the ground in terms of commercial popularity... Married twice, guilty of Manslaughter, time to take a break.




Posted with Google Chrome 70.0.3538.102 on Windows 10
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917



    Quote:
    I can't refute that as I don't have the sales data. I know Green Lantern was cancelled after the O'Neill/Adams run but my point of comparison was where these bools were at by the early 1980s - and what you had was one book with new and dynamic talented creators doing good work, and the other offering Cary Bates, Carmine Infantino, and a rambling aimless direction.
    Good sellers do not get cancelled. I don't know for sure what sales were for The Flash by 1984 but I would be incredulous if this poor a product, along with Wonder Woman at the time, were selling comparable to Green Lantern. The distance between the quality of Green Lantern at the time and The Flash & Wonder Woman is as night is to day. The Flash by 1985 was a character who had been tarnished and run into the ground, While Green Lantern was in the midst of a major renaissance...


Here's the data from 1981, 1982 and 1984. Flash is consistently outselling Green Lantern. The only year Flash lags behind is in the run up to Crisis, during a storyline that the creative team didn't want to do, and Flash fans were aghast over.

Good sellers most certainly do get cancelled, when the mandate to do so drops from an executive level.

Myth busted?


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Ancient One

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,917



    Quote:
    Long running second-string characters Captain Marvel, Hawkman and Captain Atom are rebooted while other books and characters such as Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes and Green Lantern are maintained as was. Unchanged.


I forgot to bring this up, but Green Lantern didn't remain unchanged in the wake of Crisis. It got a makeover in the form of a shift in emphasis and a title change to 'Green Lantern Corps', which it held for a grand total of 24 issues, until the books SECOND ignominious cancellation.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.140 on Windows 10
Ben Urch


Member Since: Mon Jun 25, 2018
Posts: 564



    Quote:
    AT&T would never sell any of the characters outright. Films and other merchandise bring in too much money. But they may very well license out the rights to publish comic books.


I absolutely agree that some characters would never be sold... in fact, I sad exactly that.

However, AT&T is over a hundred billion dollars in debt. They also aren't an IP company. They are a data company.

Superman could make a hefty profit without any other media, just based on merchandise (that is why I said as much). Last year, the CEO said there are no "sacred cows," but there are cash cows.

I don't hear Ted Kord, Unknown Soldier, Jonah Hex, Sgt. Rock, The Weird or Creature Commandos (all properties I love) mooing.

There is no rule everything in the universe has to stay together.


    Quote:
    If Marvel does acquire the license - and they have half an ounce of sense - they'll set up a completely separate line to house the DC characters. Integrating them with the Marvel universe would be risky story and continuity wise because in five or ten years they could lose that license.


Marvel wouldn't acquire the license. Their parent company Disney would want the work unless they got all the profit, unless there was something like with Sony and Spider-man where the plan was to edge in and take over.

Start producing DC comics, and helping with movies, so fans get attached and demand them come over. Especially when you look at how well they did with lesser knowns. If they can do for a Batman-less JLI what they did for the Guardians of the Galaxy, they could survive without the big three... until they are eventually bought in some future date.

Disney knows the power of a name. They didn't want Star Wars to make new movies, they wanted to own Luke Skywalker. The iconic more valuable. Just look at their mascot, everyone knows Mickey Mouse... but when was the last time he was in a cartoon? At least a popular one.


Remember, entertainment is a side hustle for AT&T, not its main source of income.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 73.0 on Windows 10
swmcbf

With edit.

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,252


I think the dark D.C. really began with the success of The Dark Knight Returns,Watchmen,and to a degree COIE. Sandman and Alan Moore Swamp Thing could be included though I personally do not think they really fit into the list. Didio inherited that tone and really made it jump into the superhero titles. He is only a part of the system that looks at where the dollars come from then try to find out what worked, bottle it then ride it to death. Reminds me of the disco era. I must admit to spending plenty of time in the disco techs though even I said goodbye albeit sadly \:\-\( . One of the problem in comics is allowing the past to dictate the future at least in tone and often substance. I am fine with that except not as company wide mandate. Although I am not keeping close contact with D.C. it seems that each reboot actually begins and ends with a darker feeling.
My take on D.C. do or die 5G reboot is just another publicity stunt to scare people into buying more books. From a money perspective it is probably a smart play. Reboot cash jolt juiced up by this rumor will mean big bucks for a while at least. I do not think Marvel or anyone else buys D.C. without the other more lucrative movie and merchandising included and that is not going to happen. Even shipping out the books is problematic at best. If D.C. can not make their goal on finances why would anyone take them since on top of that they would have to pay D.C. just to publish the line? The one thing I can see happening is D.C. using a gimmick to publicize shutting down then re-opening due to "popular demand". From their pov creating a Crisis On Our Earth type situation.
Of course after this posting I remembered we live in the digital age and the companies can and probably will go all in that direction at some point. It would certainly be more profitable for the big 2. This pretty much negates all my arguments above.


Posted with Google Chrome 80.0.3987.122 on Windows 7

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2018 Powermad Software