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Author
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



The showrunners have certainly done an excellent job making Zoom the most terrifying Flash villain ever seen. Reverse Flash, eat your heart out because you have nothing on this guy. The episode opens with Zoom’s attempt to scour the city, looking for Harry but he cannot find him and so he is terrifying the city into helping him. The stakes are high and the stage is set.

Zoom feels a little like the Terminator because in that movie, that killing machine refused to stop. The Terminator could not be bargained with, could not be reasoned with and would never stop until Sarah Connor was dead. Aside from terrifying others, this is the only comparison the two characters have in common. Zoom is definitely someone I would not want to meet in a dark alley.

And then I was right about Killer Frost joining Team Flash. The search begins and Barry gives a little hope to Jesse as they attempt to figure out what the man in the iron mask is trying to say. The showrunners waste no time making things interesting as Geomancer poses a threat for the second time and now we have round 2 between him and Jay. Or at least, we SHOULD have had a round 2.

But then Geomancer is taken down so easily by Caitlin and we didn’t get a fight between Jay’s Flash and Geomancer. This was a very low point in the episode and anti-climatic. The episode seemed to be going in this direction only for the showrunners to chicken out and go for a less than stellar exit for Geomancer.

Once more Barry believes he cannot achieve something and he gets a pep talk to boost his confidence so that Barry can achieve the impossible. This time, the pep talk came from Barry-2 and the Flash phases through the glass cage he was in. Like Dr. Wells said in season 1, “The only limit is yourself.”

The episode closes with barely enough time to get everyone home. The story arc of Jesse being Zoom’s prisoner closes off and now she and Harry are on Earth-Prime. And the episode closes with a nice little cliffhanger when Zoom thrusts his hand through Jay’s chest and pulls him into Earth-2. And guess what that means? JAY IS NOT ZOOM! \:\)

Good episode, there are some faults with it including a very disappointing take down of Geomancer but it was a good second, and final, part of Team Flash’s adventures on Earth-2.

4 out of 5 stars. \:\)

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:

1. Hmmm. Who is this guy in the iron mask?! Could this man actually be the real Jay? Who knows. Could be. Either way, we CLEARLY saw Zoom's arm phase through Jay's chest so that means Jay is NOT Zoom. There is so much evidence running against that particular theory, I honestly don't see how anyone can keep clinging to it.

2. Talk about a disappointment. I was hoping Jay would handle Geomancer not Caitlin.

3. Double cross! I didn’t see that one coming. \:\)

4. Triple double cross! Awesome! \:\)

5. Some people have theorized that the man in the Iron Mask cannot be Jay because his hand looks like it belongs to a black man. As a result, some have come to the conclusion that this man is Wally West of Earth-2. But in one brief close up shot, we see a profile of his mask and I clearly saw brown hair at the back of his head that could not possibly be from a black man. The man is white and we'll see if I'm right when this man is eventually rescued.

BLOOPERS/MISTAKES:

1. Barry sure isn’t very smart. He shouldn’t have needed Zoom to tell him how to get out of that glass cage.

2. Uh, in such a large collapsing building, there would be a LOT more than just a few that Jay saved.

EASTER EGGS:

1. Barry-2 claims he is wearing wing tips. In the comics he actually wears wing tips on his boots as the Flash.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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CajunSpeedster


Member Since: Wed Jan 27, 2016


I think the man in the iron mask is . . . Eddie Thawne from Earth Prime.
As you stated in an earlier post Eddie's body was sucked into the vortex during the conclusion of the season 1 finale. He has intimate knowledge of Barry/Flash that Zoom also seems to possess. The same profile look you referred to I believe shows Eddie's hair. This would also explain why Eobard Thawne has not been erased from existence and was present for the Reverse Flash Returns episode.

Off topic but I have been perplexed as to how Eobard/Wells 1 recognized Jay Gerrick/Flash's helmet during the season 1 finale unless he had been to Earth 2 and somehow battled Jay Garrick there.

I would take RF over Zoom any day! As long as it was the Eobard/Wells RF from season 1. He was much more knowledgeable about the speed force & more powerful than RF 2 . . .


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

    The showrunners have certainly done an excellent job making Zoom the most terrifying Flash villain ever seen. Reverse Flash, eat your heart out because you have nothing on this guy. The episode opens with Zoom’s attempt to scour the city, looking for Harry but he cannot find him and so he is terrifying the city into helping him. The stakes are high and the stage is set.



    Quote:
    Zoom feels a little like the Terminator because in that movie, that killing machine refused to stop. The Terminator could not be bargained with, could not be reasoned with and would never stop until Sarah Connor was dead. Aside from terrifying others, this is the only comparison the two characters have in common. Zoom is definitely someone I would not want to meet in a dark alley.



    Quote:
    And then I was right about Killer Frost joining Team Flash. The search begins and Barry gives a little hope to Jesse as they attempt to figure out what the man in the iron mask is trying to say. The showrunners waste no time making things interesting as Geomancer poses a threat for the second time and now we have round 2 between him and Jay. Or at least, we SHOULD have had a round 2.



    Quote:
    But then Geomancer is taken down so easily by Caitlin and we didn’t get a fight between Jay’s Flash and Geomancer. This was a very low point in the episode and anti-climatic. The episode seemed to be going in this direction only for the showrunners to chicken out and go for a less than stellar exit for Geomancer.



    Quote:
    Once more Barry believes he cannot achieve something and he gets a pep talk to boost his confidence so that Barry can achieve the impossible. This time, the pep talk came from Barry-2 and the Flash phases through the glass cage he was in. Like Dr. Wells said in season 1, “The only limit is yourself.”



    Quote:
    The episode closes with barely enough time to get everyone home. The story arc of Jesse being Zoom’s prisoner closes off and now she and Harry are on Earth-Prime. And the episode closes with a nice little cliffhanger when Zoom thrusts his hand through Jay’s chest and pulls him into Earth-2. And guess what that means? JAY IS NOT ZOOM! \:\)



    Quote:
    Good episode, there are some faults with it including a very disappointing take down of Geomancer but it was a good second, and final, part of Team Flash’s adventures on Earth-2.



    Quote:
    4 out of 5 stars. \:\)



    Quote:
    ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:



    Quote:
    1. Hmmm. Who is this guy in the iron mask?! Could this man actually be the real Jay? Who knows. Could be. Either way, we CLEARLY saw Zoom's arm phase through Jay's chest so that means Jay is NOT Zoom. There is so much evidence running against that particular theory, I honestly don't see how anyone can keep clinging to it.


Omigod you're in such deep denial it's not even funny. Even after this episode you still believe there is no connection between Zoom and the Jay we've seen this season? The guy in the Iron Mask is almost certainly the real Jay and if he is then the Jay we know (Hepatitis J) is an impostor...and if that's true this is all part of some ruse on Zoom's part. Argh.


    Quote:
    2. Talk about a disappointment. I was hoping Jay would handle Geomancer not Caitlin.



    Quote:
    3. Double cross! I didn’t see that one coming. \:\)



    Quote:
    4. Triple double cross! Awesome! \:\)



    Quote:
    5. Some people have theorized that the man in the Iron Mask cannot be Jay because his hand looks like it belongs to a black man. As a result, some have come to the conclusion that this man is Wally West of Earth-2. But in one brief close up shot, we see a profile of his mask and I clearly saw brown hair at the back of his head that could not possibly be from a black man. The man is white and we'll see if I'm right when this man is eventually rescued.


The real Jay is in the mask. You even get your way that the real Jay's reputation is preserved...and you still can't get onboard the Jay we know is Zoom train? Gah.


    Quote:
    BLOOPERS/MISTAKES:



    Quote:
    1. Barry sure isn’t very smart. He shouldn’t have needed Zoom to tell him how to get out of that glass cage.


Barry can be pretty stupid...see last week where he got Barry-2's father-in-law killed.


    Quote:
    2. Uh, in such a large collapsing building, there would be a LOT more than just a few that Jay saved.



    Quote:
    EASTER EGGS:



    Quote:
    1. Barry-2 claims he is wearing wing tips. In the comics he actually wears wing tips on his boots as the Flash.





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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I think the man in the iron mask is . . . Eddie Thawne from Earth Prime.
    As you stated in an earlier post Eddie's body was sucked into the vortex during the conclusion of the season 1 finale. He has intimate knowledge of Barry/Flash that Zoom also seems to possess. The same profile look you referred to I believe shows Eddie's hair. This would also explain why Eobard Thawne has not been erased from existence and was present for the Reverse Flash Returns episode.



    Quote:
    Off topic but I have been perplexed as to how Eobard/Wells 1 recognized Jay Gerrick/Flash's helmet during the season 1 finale unless he had been to Earth 2 and somehow battled Jay Garrick there.



    Quote:
    I would take RF over Zoom any day! As long as it was the Eobard/Wells RF from season 1. He was much more knowledgeable about the speed force & more powerful than RF 2 . . .


Zoom isn't really a nuanced character like RF. That's the reason I like RF more.


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    1. Hmmm. Who is this guy in the iron mask?! Could this man actually be the real Jay? Who knows. Could be. Either way, we CLEARLY saw Zoom's arm phase through Jay's chest so that means Jay is NOT Zoom. There is so much evidence running against that particular theory, I honestly don't see how anyone can keep clinging to it.

Perhaps the questions should be WHY is he in that mask at all, and why is Zoom keeping him? Barry he wants to feed on for his speed, does this then not apply to 'Iron Man'?
The Mask is for dramatic purposes obviously, but it also has to have a logical rationale as well. Why does Zoom not want to look at him... why is he kept alive?

That he may be Jay does have a logic to it, for one it would explain Jay's long absences on Earth-1 through the season, additionally he says he has no superspeed, but the lingering question as yet unanswered if Why? If he is Zoom in disguise, if Zoom is feeding off the captive Jay on Earth-2... well, there is sense there. Either way the 'Iron man' is clearly someone with the key to understanding who and what Zoom is, and there has to be a good logical reason why Zoom is keeping him like this.




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MajinVegeta




I thought at first that the guy in the mask was Earth 2 version of John Diggle since he started wearing a mask this season on Arrow. Then I remembered that Diggle is bigger in size and then of course the hair. I'm thinking Eddie.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Omigod you're in such deep denial it's not even funny. Even after this episode you still believe there is no connection between Zoom and the Jay we've seen this season? The guy in the Iron Mask is almost certainly the real Jay and if he is then the Jay we know (Hepatitis J) is an impostor...and if that's true this is all part of some ruse on Zoom's part. Argh.


Oh, all of a sudden your changing your mind that Jay is not Zoom but now the man in the Iron Mask? Good.

And I never said there is no connection, I said Jay is not Zoom (and apparently your misunderstanding me). Please re-read what I said. And if your willing to admit the man in the Iron Mask is Jay, then your wrong about Jay being Zoom which was your theory as I recall. Stop speed reading through my posts, your making up things that I never said.


    Quote:
    The real Jay is in the mask. You even get your way that the real Jay's reputation is preserved...and you still can't get onboard the Jay we know is Zoom train? Gah.


1. We saw the Jay we know trapped on Earth-Prime with NO PORTAL. We saw Zoom on Earth-2 WITH NO PORTAL. And please don't give me this, "Well, Zoom could vibrate his body so fast, he shifts into other dimensions so he doesn't need the portal!" We don't know that because there is ZERO evidence to support that side of the argument. Zoom has ALWAYS used the portals so until we have an episode with Zoom traveling to Earth-Prime from Earth-2 without a portal, this is mere conjecture and guess work.

2. We saw Zoom's hand pass through the Jay we know in a killing stroke then drag him through the portal. They were SEEN together at THE SAME TIME! This proves they are TWO SEPEREATE people. If anyone is in denial, it's you.

3. Your the one who originally thought Jay is Zoom when the previous 2 episodes strongly disprove that theory. See above.

4. Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you'll see I'm not denying anything. I'm more than willing to accept that the Man in the Iron Mask is the real Jay and that the one we know as Earth-2 Flash may not be all that he seems. I merely pointed out that Jay is NOT Zoom and I'm talking about the REAL Jay Garrick not the one we've come to know which YOU once believed was Zoom. But based on your comments, you seem to have switched your theory to the man who "could" be making everyone think he is Jay, which is fine. Miscommunication and misinterpretation is fine too which is what I think occurred here because you don't seem to be understanding me.

Maybe it's just the way I'm phrasing things, I don't know. Either way, I'm sorry. And for now on, if you can't read through my posts carefully so that we avoid any unnecessary miscommunication and misinterpretation, then I'd greatly appreciate it very much that you simply don't reply to me.

Thanks






It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:


      Quote:
      Omigod you're in such deep denial it's not even funny. Even after this episode you still believe there is no connection between Zoom and the Jay we've seen this season? The guy in the Iron Mask is almost certainly the real Jay and if he is then the Jay we know (Hepatitis J) is an impostor...and if that's true this is all part of some ruse on Zoom's part. Argh.





    Quote:
    Oh, all of a sudden your changing your mind that Jay is not Zoom but now the man in the Iron Mask? Good.


Do me the same courtesy you asked of me. Go reread my posts. I've said the Jay we know was in league with Hunter Zoloman since he popped up. I conceded the guy in the Iron Mask was most likely real Jay as soon as that plot development happened. You've said all along that it's impossible that the Jay we know is Zoom...when clearly he is Zoom or he's his accomplice.


    Quote:
    And I never said there is no connection, I said Jay is not Zoom (and apparently your misunderstanding me). Please re-read what I said. And if your willing to admit the man in the Iron Mask is Jay, then your wrong about Jay being Zoom which was your theory as I recall. Stop speed reading through my posts, your making up things that I never said.


" That is a HUUUGE assumption and there is zero proof to prove it. Sorry, but until I see that proof, Jay is not Zoom and Hunter is not working with Jay. "

That's you responding to me. So you didn't think there was a connection. I guess we'll see if there is.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The real Jay is in the mask. You even get your way that the real Jay's reputation is preserved...and you still can't get onboard the Jay we know is Zoom train? Gah.



    Quote:
    1. We saw the Jay we know trapped on Earth-Prime with NO PORTAL. We saw Zoom on Earth-2 WITH NO PORTAL. And please don't give me this, "Well, Zoom could vibrate his body so fast, he shifts into other dimensions so he doesn't need the portal!" We don't know that because there is ZERO evidence to support that side of the argument. Zoom has ALWAYS used the portals so until we have an episode with Zoom traveling to Earth-Prime from Earth-2 without a portal, this is mere conjecture and guess work.


If Zoom's an accomplished speedster does he NEED a portal? He just modulates his frequency to get to the timeline he wants to.

If Barry can't access the multiverse again because all the portals are closed on Earth-1 how does he get to do the Supergirl crossover?


    Quote:
    2. We saw Zoom's hand pass through the Jay we know in a killing stroke then drag him through the portal. They were SEEN together at THE SAME TIME! This proves they are TWO SEPEREATE people. If anyone is in denial, it's you.


They're in league together...they can be in two places at the same time because one can be "Jay" and one can be Hunter/Zoom and they can swap places. There is zero point arguing about him being in two places at once because there's already a double in the mix.


    Quote:
    3. Your the one who originally thought Jay is Zoom when the previous 2 episodes strongly disprove that theory. See above.


I still think the Jay we know IS Zoom. I conceded the guy in the iron mask was the real deal as soon as that information presented itself.


    Quote:
    4. Had you bothered to read my post carefully, you'll see I'm not denying anything. I'm more than willing to accept that the Man in the Iron Mask is the real Jay and that the one we know as Earth-2 Flash may not be all that he seems. I merely pointed out that Jay is NOT Zoom and I'm talking about the REAL Jay Garrick not the one we've come to know which YOU once believed was Zoom. But based on your comments, you seem to have switched your theory to the man who "could" be making everyone think he is Jay, which is fine. Miscommunication and misinterpretation is fine too which is what I think occurred here because you don't seem to be understanding me.


I still believe the one we know is Zoom...again a double means they can share the role of Zoom. Once you accept that then everything else Zoom does is to further that bit of misdirection.


    Quote:
    Maybe it's just the way I'm phrasing things, I don't know. Either way, I'm sorry. And for now on, if you can't read through my posts carefully so that we avoid any unnecessary miscommunication and misinterpretation, then I'd greatly appreciate it very much that you simply don't reply to me.


Fine take your ball and go home.


    Quote:
    Thanks



    Quote:





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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,450


Clearly the guy in the mask is wearing a mask so Barry and Jessie can't see who he is. He taps out Jay. Barry thinks he is asking about Jay but the obvious other conclusion is that he is Jay which means the guy we think is Jay is an imposter.

I don't see how Zoom could be Jay though. At most there are two Jays an Earth 1 Jay and an Earth 2 Jay.

Guy we think is Jay, Jay in cell, and Zoom is three. So unless someone is a shape changer then Jay isn't Zoom.

So who is Zoom? I still have no clue.

And you're right Knight he is a scary villain. He is very powerful and smart and they have yet to find any weaknesses.

PPP





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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Clearly the guy in the mask is wearing a mask so Barry and Jessie can't see who he is. He taps out Jay. Barry thinks he is asking about Jay but the obvious other conclusion is that he is Jay which means the guy we think is Jay is an imposter.


My thought is that since we were introduced to Hunter Zolomon on Earth-Prime, that MAYBE the Jay we know is Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon and he was lying this whole time. As for the guy in the Iron Mask being Jay, yeah...I think your right based on how he reacted to Jay's name and how upset he was when Barry tried to reassure him.


    Quote:
    I don't see how Zoom could be Jay though. At most there are two Jays an Earth 1 Jay and an Earth 2 Jay.


My thoughts as well. *Nods*

I had this new theory in my head too that I am still trying to work out, but the one thing that ruins it is Zoom's identity.


    Quote:
    Guy we think is Jay, Jay in cell, and Zoom is three. So unless someone is a shape changer then Jay isn't Zoom.


Which is what I've been saying all along.


    Quote:
    So who is Zoom? I still have no clue.


I still have a list of suspects, but I also have no clue other than my list.


    Quote:
    And you're right Knight he is a scary villain. He is very powerful and smart and they have yet to find any weaknesses.


Thanks and very true. I look forward to the eventual reveal which should be coming up really soon now.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,450



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Clearly the guy in the mask is wearing a mask so Barry and Jessie can't see who he is. He taps out Jay. Barry thinks he is asking about Jay but the obvious other conclusion is that he is Jay which means the guy we think is Jay is an imposter.



    Quote:
    My thought is that since we were introduced to Hunter Zolomon on Earth-Prime, that MAYBE the Jay we know is Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon and he was lying this whole time. As for the guy in the Iron Mask being Jay, yeah...I think your right based on how he reacted to Jay's name and how upset he was when Barry tried to reassure him.


That would make sense! So Earth 1 Hunter Zolomon is the innocent bystander we saw in the park. Earth 2 Hunter Zolomon is the guy who has been saying he is Earth 2 Jay Garrick.

The actual Earth 2 Jay Garrick is Zoom's prisoner which would make Zoom Earth 1 Jay Garrick. Or the Earth 1 Garrick is the prisoner, it doesn't matter. And Jay Garrick doesn't actually look like Hunter Zolomon!

PPP









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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:

      Quote:


        Quote:
        Clearly the guy in the mask is wearing a mask so Barry and Jessie can't see who he is. He taps out Jay. Barry thinks he is asking about Jay but the obvious other conclusion is that he is Jay which means the guy we think is Jay is an imposter.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        My thought is that since we were introduced to Hunter Zolomon on Earth-Prime, that MAYBE the Jay we know is Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon and he was lying this whole time. As for the guy in the Iron Mask being Jay, yeah...I think your right based on how he reacted to Jay's name and how upset he was when Barry tried to reassure him.



    Quote:
    That would make sense! So Earth 1 Hunter Zolomon is the innocent bystander we saw in the park. Earth 2 Hunter Zolomon is the guy who has been saying he is Earth 2 Jay Garrick.



    Quote:
    The actual Earth 2 Jay Garrick is Zoom's prisoner which would make Zoom Earth 1 Jay Garrick. Or the Earth 1 Garrick is the prisoner, it doesn't matter. And Jay Garrick doesn't actually look like Hunter Zolomon!


OR...!

See my post above about the Man in the Iron Mask theories. ;\)







It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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CajunSpeedster


Member Since: Wed Jan 27, 2016


Totally agree . . .


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Could Zoom actually be an evil spit off of Jay garrick, somehow given form and voice by what happened when Black Hole erupted?

Could he be Eddie , who somehow absorbed all of that into himslf, becoming like a nexus between rrealities?

And since we got to see kara in that visit netween worlds, does that mean that the entire DCU exists in a thinly connected multiverse, with kara world, E1/2, Smallsville. gotham etc?


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