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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,435


This is copied and pasted from the Flash MB and I know it's mostly the same folks on both, but I think the topic bears discussing here too.



    Quote:
    http://www.cbr.com/15-arrowverse-characters-who-need-to-die/


I disagree with most of these. Deaths should have an impact, you should build to it. Or if it's sudden it should impact the story.

For example Sara's death on Arrow was unexpected but there was the mystery of who killed her and then the whole plot of her coming back to life had lots of great story mileage.

On the other hand Laurel's death was kind of built up to. I thought it was good at the time, but after a season I think it's clear it was a mistake. But still story wise it had impact.

15 Lance's death would have impact everyone likes him, but his one daughter is dead and his other daughter is busy time traveling. Where is the emotion? I say just keep him around.

14 Steel- Who cares, I figured he would just get off the ship at the end of the season.

13 Nyssa- They should have killed her a long time ago if they were going to. No impact currently.

12 Hank Henshaw- Who cares, he is a nothing character right now.

11 Wild Dog- Why? We're just getting to know him. Let him get his daughter back and just stop doing the hero thing. That's the best ending for him.

10- Thea- It is pretty clear they have no idea what to do with her character. She just needs to go move to another city or they need to figure out something for her to do story wise.

9 Martin Stein- No. He needs to live. He is one of the core characters on Legends along with Sara and Jax, though they keep making Stein a bumbling idiot half the time

8 Black Siren- Again, I could really care less about the character. The problem is. They shouldn't have killed Laurel, so now they want to like use Siren as some sort of band aid. But they already have the new canary and nothing for her to do either. They need to throw both of them out the window. They already F-ed up and they can't fix it.

7 Atom- Why? Ray is like the main comic relief character. If he died everyone would just laugh because they were waiting for the punchline.

6 Caitlin- No! Her story is just getting sort of interesting. They couldn't figure out what to do with the character for years. Then they have the she is going bad story line this year, but they only go half way. So now is there a redemption story? Is there a I'm going to be self serving story? Or will there be a I'm going to be a villain story still to come?

5 Maggie- Are you high? Maggie is like Kara's whole world. She would be absolutely devastated without her sister. Supergirl is like a "light-hearted" show and it would have to be a much darker show if that happened.

4- Jonn Jonzz- They haven't really figured out where to take his character. He loves the girls, he has a mission protecting the Earth. He like that White Martian. But he just doesn't feel REAL. We don't see his everyday life like we see Kara and Maggie. I feel like we need to see that if he is going to be more than a secondary character.

3- Diggle- No. As others have said he has always been the moral compass character. without him the show wouldn't work

2- Joe West- I kept thinking he was going to die instead of Iris. I'd say yes except Barry just lost his real father. Does he really need to lose his other dad too.

And speaking of Iris, I'm super surprised she wasn't on the list. My god they made it seem like she was going to die, and by the end of the season I had totally accepted it and then, she didn't die and I felt like they'd been lying to me all season. If they were going to kill Iris they should have done it this year.

1 Felicity- I'm not a Felicity hater, but the writers threw her character under the bus this year. She along with Diggle were the ones with a moral compass. That was out the door this year, so who is she now? She is someone that has no moral high ground to give Oliver advice.

And she's really been Oliver's only serious girlfriend throughout the series so it's like they are stuck with her. But it just isn't working anymore. There has been so many ups and downs with them. I'm just kind of sick of it. What are they going to get engaged again? Neither of them have changed. And why is that storyline interesting?

Looking back Felicity should have died last year instead of Laurel and this season could have been about Laurel and Oliver finding each other again. That would have worked.

Instead we are stuck with something that is not working anymore.

PPP





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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,790




    Quote:
    For example Sara's death on Arrow was unexpected but there was the mystery of who killed her and then the whole plot of her coming back to life had lots of great story mileage.


Sara's death set Laurel on the path of being the Black Canary. Sara should have stayed dead as the impact of her death is cheapened with her return.


    Quote:
    On the other hand Laurel's death was kind of built up to. I thought it was good at the time, but after a season I think it's clear it was a mistake. But still story wise it had impact.


Laurel's death was random and should never have been done to begin with. It would have been so very perfect had it been Felicity instead. Her death would really have sent Oliver into kill mode more so than Laurel's. It also would have hurt Oliver more.


    Quote:
    15 Lance's death would have impact everyone likes him, but his one daughter is dead and his other daughter is busy time traveling. Where is the emotion? I say just keep him around.


Agreed about Lance.


    Quote:
    14 Steel- Who cares, I figured he would just get off the ship at the end of the season.


Power wise, Steel has too much in common with Girder over in the Flash.


    Quote:
    13 Nyssa- They should have killed her a long time ago if they were going to. No impact currently.


I say kill off Nyssa. She's pretty useless at this point.


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    12 Hank Henshaw- Who cares, he is a nothing character right now.


Since I've stopped watching Supergirl, I don't really care what happens to any of it's characters.


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    11 Wild Dog- Why? We're just getting to know him. Let him get his daughter back and just stop doing the hero thing. That's the best ending for him.


Agreed. Let him have his happy ending and then forget about him. Oliver and the show doesn't need him.


    Quote:
    10- Thea- It is pretty clear they have no idea what to do with her character. She just needs to go move to another city or they need to figure out something for her to do story wise.


Agreed.


    Quote:
    9 Martin Stein- No. He needs to live. He is one of the core characters on Legends along with Sara and Jax, though they keep making Stein a bumbling idiot half the time


I say kill off him off.


    Quote:
    8 Black Siren- Again, I could really care less about the character. The problem is. They shouldn't have killed Laurel, so now they want to like use Siren as some sort of band aid. But they already have the new canary and nothing for her to do either. They need to throw both of them out the window. They already F-ed up and they can't fix it.


Yeah, kill off Black Siren. She's doing nothing but hurting the show.


    Quote:
    7 Atom- Why? Ray is like the main comic relief character. If he died everyone would just laugh because they were waiting for the punchline.


Agreed. When I watched Legends season 1, I really liked Ray. I say keep him.


    Quote:
    6 Caitlin- No! Her story is just getting sort of interesting. They couldn't figure out what to do with the character for years. Then they have the she is going bad story line this year, but they only go half way. So now is there a redemption story? Is there a I'm going to be self serving story? Or will there be a I'm going to be a villain story still to come?


Agreed. Caitlin is getting interesting.


    Quote:
    5 Maggie- Are you high? Maggie is like Kara's whole world. She would be absolutely devastated without her sister. Supergirl is like a "light-hearted" show and it would have to be a much darker show if that happened.


Kara's sister name is Alex, not Maggie.


    Quote:
    4- Jonn Jonzz- They haven't really figured out where to take his character. He loves the girls, he has a mission protecting the Earth. He like that White Martian. But he just doesn't feel REAL. We don't see his everyday life like we see Kara and Maggie. I feel like we need to see that if he is going to be more than a secondary character.


J'onn is barely any better than a cardboard cutout on the show.


    Quote:
    3- Diggle- No. As others have said he has always been the moral compass character. without him the show wouldn't work


Agreed. Without Diggle, Arrow would fall apart as a show. If he has to die sometime, then it's best to reserve that for the series finale when the show is finally ending.


    Quote:
    2- Joe West- I kept thinking he was going to die instead of Iris. I'd say yes except Barry just lost his real father. Does he really need to lose his other dad too.


Let Barry keep at least one dad.


    Quote:
    And speaking of Iris, I'm super surprised she wasn't on the list. My god they made it seem like she was going to die, and by the end of the season I had totally accepted it and then, she didn't die and I felt like they'd been lying to me all season. If they were going to kill Iris they should have done it this year.


Agreed. Iris should have died. Bring back Patty Spivott!


    Quote:
    1 Felicity- I'm not a Felicity hater, but the writers threw her character under the bus this year. She along with Diggle were the ones with a moral compass. That was out the door this year, so who is she now? She is someone that has no moral high ground to give Oliver advice.


Felicity should have died instead of Laurel. She offers nothing but crude humorous quipps and hacking. Most of what she can do can be done by Fake Terrific.







It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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thjan

Moderator

Member Since: Wed Dec 23, 2009
Posts: 2,784




I'm not a fan of killing off characters in general anyway, but it seem it seems pointless to do it in a comic or on a superhero show where you know they will be back. You especially know that the actor and a version of the character will be back in the CW Arrowverse with all the multiple Earths. Anyway, here are my thoughts on some of people listed(I don't know how I messed up the order, but I'm on my phone and it's too much work to fix it)



    Quote:
    15 Lance's death would have impact everyone likes him, but his one daughter is dead and his other daughter is busy time traveling. Where is the emotion? I say just keep him around.


Yeah, no need to kill him. Sheesh, do they want them to kill the whole Lance family at some point?


    Quote:
    13 Nyssa- They should have killed her a long time ago if they were going to. No impact currently.


Yeah, no to this one too. She's awesome, and I always get a kick out of the different ways she greets all the different characters.


    Quote:
    12 Hank Henshaw- Who cares, he is a nothing character right now.


Yeah, unlike his comic counterpoint he has made no impact. This one wouldn't bother me at all.


    Quote:
    11 Wild Dog- Why? We're just getting to know him. Let him get his daughter back and just stop doing the hero thing. That's the best ending for him.


No to this one as well. I wasn't sure about him at first, but he's really grown on me. I love his sarcastic comments and his back and forth interactions with Quentin.


    Quote:
    10- Thea- It is pretty clear they have no idea what to do with her character. She just needs to go move to another city or they need to figure out something for her to do story wise.


No to this one also. I like her a lot, and love her and Oliver's relationship and interactions.


    Quote:
    8 Black Siren- Again, I could really care less about the character. The problem is. They shouldn't have killed Laurel, so now they want to like use Siren as some sort of band aid. But they already have the new canary and nothing for her to do either. They need to throw both of them out the window. They already F-ed up and they can't fix it.


This one I wouldn't mind dying, or just going back to her Earth. I have no interest in some alternate, evil Laurel who has no history with any of this universe's characters. She really is pointless. Her, Wally West, and Roy Harper are the only characters in the Arrowverse that I would be happy to see permanently gone. I can't stand Earth-2 Laurel, I don't think the Flash needs two speedsters, and I find Roy really bland and boring(I was so glad when he was written out of the show and hope he doesn't come back).


    Quote:
    6 Caitlin- No! Her story is just getting sort of interesting. They couldn't figure out what to do with the character for years. Then they have the she is going bad story line this year, but they only go half way. So now is there a redemption story? Is there a I'm going to be self serving story? Or will there be a I'm going to be a villain story still to come?


Yeah, nope to this one. I love Caitlin and she is one of the show's only lead female characters. Why would anyone want to get rid of her?


    Quote:
    5 Maggie- Are you high? Maggie is like Kara's whole world. She would be absolutely devastated without her sister. Supergirl is like a "light-hearted" show and it would have to be a much darker show if that happened.


Wow, I can't believe this one either. She is one of the best characters on the show, and her and Kara's relationship is so important to the show too.


    Quote:
    4- Jonn Jonzz- They haven't really figured out where to take his character. He loves the girls, he has a mission protecting the Earth. He like that White Martian. But he just doesn't feel REAL. We don't see his everyday life like we see Kara and Maggie. I feel like we need to see that if he is going to be more than a secondary character.


I'd greatly miss him if he was gone. They don't always use him that well, but he's a great character that I always enjoy seeing.


    Quote:
    3- Diggle- No. As others have said he has always been the moral compass character. without him the show wouldn't work


No! Diggle is way too good of a character to lose. He's a very big and important part of the show.


    Quote:
    2- Joe West- I kept thinking he was going to die instead of Iris. I'd say yes except Barry just lost his real father. Does he really need to lose his other dad too.


Man, do they want Barry to lose everyone? They have been making him way too morose and brooding as it is lately. No thanks to more of that. I want him to go back to being more light hearted.


    Quote:
    And speaking of Iris, I'm super surprised she wasn't on the list. My god they made it seem like she was going to die, and by the end of the season I had totally accepted it and then, she didn't die and I felt like they'd been lying to me all season. If they were going to kill Iris they should have done it this year.


I knew they wouldn't kill her since she is the female lead and one of few females even on the show, and that actually made that whole storyline kind of annoying to me this season. I'm glad I was right though, since I like her.


    Quote:
    1 Felicity- I'm not a Felicity hater, but the writers threw her character under the bus this year. She along with Diggle were the ones with a moral compass. That was out the door this year, so who is she now? She is someone that has no moral high ground to give Oliver advice.

    And she's really been Oliver's only serious girlfriend throughout the series so it's like they are stuck with her. But it just isn't working anymore. There has been so many ups and downs with them. I'm just kind of sick of it. What are they going to get engaged again? Neither of them have changed. And why is that storyline interesting?


Wow, big no to this one! And yikes, it seems like you want a lot of the female characters written out of Arrow(mostly joking \:\) , but you did mention for almost all of them that they shouldbe written out if they continue the way they have with them). Felicity is actually my favorite character on the show(followed very closely by Oliver). I can't believe so many people dislike her. I know lots of people and especially comic fans don't like angst, but I truly don't understand why so many people want her removed from the show completely. She's such a fun character and her and Oliver have such great chemistry(even in the scenes where they are not in a romantic relationship). I'm fairly new to the Arrow, and when I started looking at some of the boards and threads related to Arrow, I was really surprised at the amount of hate Felicity and the Oliver/Felicity relationship get online. The Arrow Reddit is actually toxic with it(and with the hate for seasons 3 and 4 too). I don't understand why people watch shows that they don't even enjoy anymore.

Also, I don't think she has lost her purpose on the show just because she has lost a little of her moral high ground at all. She is still a very good person and a very important part of the team. I love seeing her use her computer skills to help the team, and I think she always has really good advice for Oliver and the others. Even after her experiences with Helix, she was a great help with getting Oliver to move on from his past and at helping him with his problems. She is one of a very, very small group of people that can get Oliver to back down and change his mind about some of his more questionable decisions and actions, and i think she is very much still needed. Plus, she adds a lot of much needed light and hope to the show.






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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,435



    Quote:
    Wow, big no to this one! And yikes, it seems like you want a lot of the female characters written out of Arrow(mostly joking \:\) , but you did mention for almost all of them that they shouldbe written out if they continue the way they have with them). Felicity is actually my favorite character on the show(followed very closely by Oliver). I can't believe so many people dislike her. I know lots of people and especially comic fans don't like angst, but I truly don't understand why so many people want her removed from the show completely. She's such a fun character and her and Oliver have such great chemistry(even in the scenes where they are not in a romantic relationship). I'm fairly new to the Arrow, and when I started looking at some of the boards and threads related to Arrow, I was really surprised at the amount of hate Felicity and the Oliver/Felicity relationship get online. The Arrow Reddit is actually toxic with it(and with the hate for seasons 3 and 4 too). I don't understand why people watch shows that they don't even enjoy anymore.



    Quote:
    Also, I don't think she has lost her purpose on the show just because she has lost a little of her moral high ground at all. She is still a very good person and a very important part of the team. I love seeing her use her computer skills to help the team, and I think she always has really good advice for Oliver and the others. Even after her experiences with Helix, she was a great help with getting Oliver to move on from his past and at helping him with his problems. She is one of a very, very small group of people that can get Oliver to back down and change his mind about some of his more questionable decisions and actions, and i think she is very much still needed. Plus, she adds a lot of much needed light and hope to the show.


I hear you and I used to agree with you. I loved Felicity and defended her many times. But the CONSTANT two step forwards, two steps back with her and Oliver has just gotten old.

When they got back together at the end of this season it should have been a "Aww! I love them together" moment, but for me anyway all I could think was "Well, this is going to end poorly."

Neither of them has changed and they are doomed to have the same problems. And it feels like a rehash rather than something fresh and exciting for the audience.

It also reminds me of why they killed Gwen Stacy. They said Peter had gotten to the point where either they were going to get married or she was going to have to die.

But Laurel is dead, so they can't kill Felicity even though they need to. It's basically a no win situation for the show.

PPP







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thjan

Moderator

Member Since: Wed Dec 23, 2009
Posts: 2,784



I can understand all that and I can see why you feel that way. I guess I just have a bigger tolerance for relationship drama than a lot of people(and can even enjoy it if things work out in the end for the couple). After all, my favorite comic relationship is the one between Gambit and Rogue. But still, I actually think they have both changed this season. In fact, the whole point of this season is that Oliver has and is changing and is starting to try to let go of his past and do things differently. That and Felicity's experiences with Helix are why the tentative reconciliation was even possible. I think the writers are slowly and patiently rebuilding the relationship and having Oliver finally move on with his life and start dealing with some of his issues. I think season 6 is going to continue with both of those things. I think they have been playing the long game with their relationship, and I wouldn't be surprised if Oliver and Felicity stay together and maybe even get married next season.
But whatever, I can be a bit of a hopeless romantic at times, and if I like a fictional couple and enjoy their chemistry together, I will keep rooting for them until the end.





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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,666



    Quote:



    Quote:
    I'm not a fan of killing off characters in general anyway, but it seem it seems pointless to do it in a comic or on a superhero show where you know they will be back. You especially know that the actor and a version of the character will be back in the CW Arrowverse with all the multiple Earths....


Completely agree. Why must it be "kill off"? Why not just send that character off in some other direction from the rest of the characters? (like happens in real life)

Leave the character available for use somewhere down the road when the plot calls for it. i.e. put the toy back in the box for later use.

KATS




KATS latest read: The Swamp Fox by John Oller
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