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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


Hi gang,

I was thinking about those situations when you like something that everyone else hates, or even more bizarre when everyone loves somehing you can't stand.

I guess the example for myself would be "Indianna Jones and the Last Crusade". I watched a review of this film where they gave it an A+. I have always despised this film, replacing a fantastic series with screwball comedy antics that Adam Sandler would be embarrassed by.

I think it hurt more because I found Raiders life changing as a young boy so my disaapoinment was extreme. In a lot of ways it helped me lower expectations. I think for most casual fans, they like the film, but I hated it with a passion.


do you guys have anything like this? Something that is universally loved and you feel like Cassandra shouting all alone about how bad it is.


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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,878


Well first off it's Temple of Doom that sucks, not Crusade. ;\-\)


Comicbook wise I simply don't get the love affair with Barry Windsor-Smith. When I read Conan the Barbarian, all I ever think is, "When does Buscema come on board? Enough with these hair-hats he has everybody wearing."

I'd say Don McGregor as well but I don't think he quite fits the bill as unlike Smith he is not universally loved; he has some (wise) detractors.




KATS latest read: Twenty Years After by Alexandre Dumas
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Superman's Pal

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It's an interesting argument. I find a lot to like in both Temple and Crusade and I guess I didn't focus on the negative or didn't want to. The mine cart chase is one of the more preposterous things in Temple, but I still enjoyed it. Aside from the heart ripping, that is. Crusade: for some reason, any of the humor coming from Indy or Henry I enjoyed, but that of Marcus and Sallah pulled me out of the movie. But not enough to ruin it.

What did you guys think of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? This is the one that lost me a bit. "Nuke the fridge" and CGI monkeys seemed a step beyond any previous stupidity, although other parts of the movie didn't bother me. The maguffin being aliens instead of magic didn't bother me. Mutt didn't bother me. Maybe I'm too forgiving.

I'm actually not very familiar with Barry Windsor-Smith's bibliography. The main thing of his that I read was the Weapon X collected edition which I enjoyed. Once when a local comic shop was closing I scored a deal on his album-sized "Barry Windsor-Smith's Storyteller" which I mostly enjoyed. But I never read his Conan or any other seminal work.


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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,878



    Quote:
    It's an interesting argument. I find a lot to like in both Temple and Crusade and I guess I didn't focus on the negative or didn't want to. The mine cart chase is one of the more preposterous things in Temple, but I still enjoyed it. Aside from the heart ripping, that is. Crusade: for some reason, any of the humor coming from Indy or Henry I enjoyed, but that of Marcus and Sallah pulled me out of the movie. But not enough to ruin it.


In Temple Indy solves nothing, he is simply thrust into one situation after the next, he prevails, but he did not place himself in that situation. For example he literally falls out of the sky into the village that is having its kids stolen. He's not there for a purpose, it's just where he happened to be when the raft stopped. All the other scenes are setup pretty much in a similar fashion. Then top it off with Kate Capshaw's useless character whose main roll seems to be to scream, and Short Round's ridiculous action scenes, and... well Even Spielberg apologized for the film, that says enough for me.

Compare it to Raiders in which Indy is the one solving the mystery; Indy is deciding where to move to next in pursuit of the Arc; and Indy is always one step ahead of the bad guys.


    Quote:
    What did you guys think of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? This is the one that lost me a bit. "Nuke the fridge" and CGI monkeys seemed a step beyond any previous stupidity, although other parts of the movie didn't bother me. The maguffin being aliens instead of magic didn't bother me. Mutt didn't bother me. Maybe I'm too forgiving.


That one was so bad I can't even recall much of it.


    Quote:
    I'm actually not very familiar with Barry Windsor-Smith's bibliography. The main thing of his that I read was the Weapon X collected edition which I enjoyed. Once when a local comic shop was closing I scored a deal on his album-sized "Barry Windsor-Smith's Storyteller" which I mostly enjoyed. But I never read his Conan or any other seminal work.


Another artist that is universally loved who I didn't get was Ditko. But when I finally read his Doctor Strange I did a 180 on him.






KATS latest read: Twenty Years After by Alexandre Dumas
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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


I can tell you that you will never convince me that "Last Crusade" is not a steaming pile of sh%te. I consider it an embarrassment to cinema.:-)

"Temple" at least tried to be different rather than the horrid retred of Raiders that Crusade tried to be. Nazis, Biblical artifact, Salah, there was not even an attempt to do anything new. As a comedy it's fine, but Indiana Jones was always an adventure character first.

Im kinda with you on Barry Winsor-Smith. He seemed to get more aclaim than he merited, especially in early Conans.


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


for me, Crystal Skull was just a natural extension of the crap from "Crusade". I had no more "f"s to give by that point.

At least Temple tried not to be an exact carbon copy of Raiders.


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


Ditko is one that is hard to critize. I once dared to suggest on another board that Ditko was burning out on Spider-man when he left and was told I "don't know what to look for" in art. How dare I have an opnion?

A more recent example of something everyone seemed to love that I didnt was the "Mad max, fury road" which I found an over the top mess, a vast step down from the fabulous original. Im starting to feel like an old man yelling at a cloud.


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Bubba


Location: Virginia
Member Since: Sun Feb 04, 2018
Posts: 28


Did anyone else find some of Jack Kirby's stories less than entertaining? I loved his art, but some of his Marvel stories really didn't appeal to me (especially his work on Captain America in the 70s).






Bubba
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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


yeah, the 70s Kirby cap were a bit meh, especially the madbomb stuff.

I always saw Lee/Kirby a bit like Lennon/Mycartny, in that they both were better together that on their own. It was almost like they could cover for each of the other's shortcomings.


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Nose Norton


Location: Plainville
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,359


From the board's era? Not really. I'm not really a fan of Windsor-Smith, either, but not to the point of annoyance. I couldn't get into The Dark Phoenix story or Wolverine vs the Hellfire Club from the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run.

Going the other way, I like Doug Moench's Fantastic Four and Denny O'Neill's Spider-Man.

For more recent stuff, I couldn't stand Paul Jenkins on Spider-Man and I get aggravated when his work gets praised.


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Superman's Pal

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Thanks for the "Fury Road" reference. As a fan of the old trilogy, I found "Fury Road" to be extremely well photographed ... and maybe that's all? The story is utterly pointless. They escape from the bad place, drive for an hour, and then decide to go back. The end. Max could have been left out of the movie entirely and it wouldn't have made any difference. The movie should have been called "Furiosa" as Theron's character was the only good thing in the film.



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,602



    Quote:
    Hi gang,



    Quote:
    I was thinking about those situations when you like something that everyone else hates, or even more bizarre when everyone loves somehing you can't stand.



    Quote:
    I guess the example for myself would be "Indianna Jones and the Last Crusade". I watched a review of this film where they gave it an A+. I have always despised this film, replacing a fantastic series with screwball comedy antics that Adam Sandler would be embarrassed by.


Well, like some of the others I found "Temple of Doom" even worse, but that is a movie which actually has quite a few detractors and of which Steven Spielberg himself is embarrassed, so I guess it doesn't count.

I have to say that I dislike the entire Indiana Jones franchise because I think it is essentially nostalgia for bad old films with too little self-awareness or self-irony. In that respect I definitely prefer the campy Flash Gordon movie and the oddball "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid".


    Quote:
    I think it hurt more because I found Raiders life changing as a young boy so my disaapoinment was extreme. In a lot of ways it helped me lower expectations. I think for most casual fans, they like the film, but I hated it with a passion.



    Quote:

    do you guys have anything like this? Something that is universally loved and you feel like Cassandra shouting all alone about how bad it is.


Let's see. As far as the era covered in this board (up until the mid-1980s) is concerned, I'm not sure if there is that much where I violently disagree with the majority opinion. I would say that I consider some works and artists overrated, e.g. part of the oeuvre of Jack Kirby, Byrne's run on Uncanny X-Men and Frank Miller's revised origin of Daredevil, but that for the most part only means that I consider them "good, but not THAT good" as opposed to "bad". (Back when I became a Marvel fan in the 1970s, my favourite artist was Gene Colan. And my favourite comics creator from the "Golden Age" years is - Hergé).

I have a very negative opinion of early X-Factor, but that is not that uncommon a position to hold.

From later years, here's a partial list (in more or less alphabetical order):

Likes:

"Empowered" - I consider it perhaps the most consistently great superhero comic of the past two decades - why do so few people take note of it?

Ang Lee's "Hulk" (2003)

Dislikes:

Busiek's Avengers run (Busiek is another creator I consider overrated).

Bringing Bucky back from the dead (a silly and unnecessary exercise in nostalgia for the "Golden Age" of comics and the certainties of the Cold War).

Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" films (I watched the first movie, then refused to watch any of the blockbuster sequels).

The Rogue/Gambit romance (it's pretty popular and even declared to be "classic" by some fans, but I consider it one of the worst and most toxic relationships in comics, especially in its original 1990s incarnation). In this context I should add that I found Kelly Thompson's "Rogue & Gambit" limited series one of the worst superhero story arcs of this millennium (also, perhaps surprisingly misogynistic for a comic written by a woman) - most of the reviews I've seen were undeservedly positive.




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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


I think Fury Road is what happens when you have too much money to throw at a project. the director winds up going way over the top.

the road warrior did a great job creating a bleak future with a limited budget. It was believable as a world fighting for scarce resources.

Fury road had a guy playing electric guitar with a flame thrower. The budget allowed the producers to turn their world into a farce.

this is a case where I feel parameters are good. Less is more. this is why I think indy directors can't handle things when they get a big budget. it damages their creativity.


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


I've never been able to figure out why I dont personally hold O'neills spider-man in better regard. it has so many elements I enjoy, obscure villains, good character moments, hard luck parker, etc. I can never understand why it didnt click with me.


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Ed Love


Location: North Carolina
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 881


Big Bang Theory had the girls do a great hilarious deconstruction of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ruining the movie for the guys: Indy doesn't really accomplish anything positive other than killing some bad guys. It is his fault the Germans get their hands on the Ark because they were digging in the wrong place. If he gave up or failed then, it might have been taken to Berlin and opened there, killing Hitler and ending WWII several years earlier. Instead, it gets opened in the desert. And, it doesn't end up in a museum but a warehouse.




Visit my Golden-Age Encyclopedias and web pages: http://www.herogoggles.com
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Ed Love


Location: North Carolina
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 881


I fear most of mine are mostly the recent variety such as the movie Silver Linings Playbook which is internally inconsistent with its double standards (everything the guy does is wrong, the pretty girl does the exact same things and it's considered ok, and then the shift to cliche rom-com winning the competition together as show of love in the last quarter), Brubaker's run on Captain America (and Bucky), Christopher Priest's writing including Black Panther.

I never really got into Alan Moore or Grant Morrison's writing other than a very small selection of their works. I don't see how people can even like Giffen's "5 Years Later" Legion of Superheroes. I like James Robinson's The Golden-Age as an elseworlds tale, but I tend to think it's highly over-rated. There is an underlying theme of sexism and misogyny to it that I don't think was meant to be a commentary on the post-WWII time but inherent in the writing and prevents it from aging well.

Never really cared for Paul Gulacy's artwork. Most of his figures seem to have all the naturalness and emotional expression of department store manikins to me. Likewise, as hard as I try I cannot get into Master of Kung Fu. It should appeal to me and instead it tends to bore me.

Gerard Jones and Barreto's Shadow Strikes is the best adaptation of the Shadow to comics, including O'Neil's and Kaluta's take.

Hank Pym needs/deserves to be restored to the pantheon he belongs either as Giant-Man or Yellowjacket, without the specter of mental illness and spousal abuse. He and Janet were founder members of the team and the first to return as regular members when the founders left. They deserve more respect than they get.






Visit my Golden-Age Encyclopedias and web pages: http://www.herogoggles.com
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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,878



    Quote:
    Big Bang Theory had the girls do a great hilarious deconstruction of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ruining the movie for the guys: Indy doesn't really accomplish anything positive other than killing some bad guys. It is his fault the Germans get their hands on the Ark because they were digging in the wrong place. If he gave up or failed then, it might have been taken to Berlin and opened there, killing Hitler and ending WWII several years earlier. Instead, it gets opened in the desert. And, it doesn't end up in a museum but a warehouse.


That was a brilliant episode! I don't know if that has been a commonly held "theory" for years or if the writers of BB came up with it on their own; if the latter they really are to be applauded.




KATS latest read: Twenty Years After by Alexandre Dumas
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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,878



    Quote:
    Never really cared for Paul Gulacy's artwork. Most of his figures seem to have all the naturalness and emotional expression of department store manikins to me. Likewise, as hard as I try I cannot get into Master of Kung Fu. It should appeal to me and instead it tends to bore me.


Ed I think this one fits into the original question perfectly, as Gulacy (in my experience) gets nothing but love. While I find his work "above average", I certainly think your mannequin analogy is apt.




KATS latest read: Twenty Years After by Alexandre Dumas
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Nose Norton


Location: Plainville
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,359


For me, it hit me in that sweet spot, when I was 11 years old, on the brink of becoming a comic book collector instead of just a reader. O’Neill’s run does have the attributes you mentioned (I especially like the oddball Spidey/Subby pairings), but it also has the rather poor Lonesome Pincus gag, the King King rip-off (which I unashamedly love) and Peter treating Deb Whitman terribly. It’s a mixed bag but I give it a thumbs up overall, especially when you include Annuals 14 & 15.
Moench’s FF is a little harder to defend. It was from around the same time, so, again, I have nostalgia, but I think what I enjoyed was that it was written like a horror book starring the FF, a nice twist on the usual sci-fi/super hero stories.




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Superman's Pal

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But the Germans were only digging in the wrong place because Indy got the headpiece from Marian, leaving them only half. If he hadn't, they would have gotten it and been digging in the right place all along. Which I think BB mentioned. Would Belloq have delivered it to Hitler or opened it himself as he did in the movie?



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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


good observations. I only read O'neil's Spidey stories as an adult so that might be part of it. Since it precedes the legendary Stern run (that I still consider the best, even if I'm biased. Its when I started bying comics more regularly).

I felt O'neil was a better fit with Daredevil (which I think is underrated due to following Miller) as he seemed to connect with DD more, adding elements like the IRA/Irish stories and Micah Synn. I guess I felt Denny did better with the more serious morose tone of DD than the lighter hard-luck of Peter Parker. Maybe thats why he did well on Batman who I would consider closer to DD in tone (but I havent read his Batman).

Deep down I really want to like his Spidey run. I'll give it another shot. I mean it has Ramrod poisoning a bar because they didnt like his country music (if I recall correctly) which has so much awesome in one sentence.

Its funny how stuff felt more "adult" when we were young. My first comics were ASM 183-185 which had the White Dragon, Rocket Racer and the Big Wheel. At the time, they seemed cutting edge adult (I was 4 at the time).


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Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,584


good point about the amulet. Without Indy they would have got a whole amulet and story over.

And no way Belloq would let Hitler have the Ark first. he even states as much.

Without Indy, the Ark would have been abandoned on a Nazi-controlled Greek isle waiting for a fresh submarnie to dock there and pick it up.


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Jeff m.


Member Since: Mon Jan 13, 2020
Posts: 73


Seinfeld- full stop.

I have a huge collection of comedy albums, shows and films. And I do like Jerry Seinfeld's stand up.

People would constantly talk about the show and ask if I saw the recent episode.

I watched a couple here and there, and always found it boring, predictable and annoying.

Jeff
www.dogfoodforchairs.com


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Dakota


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 438


The late 80s era of Gambit/Rogue/Longshot/Dazzler/Forge era of X-Men. I thought that was the most weak/pitiful lineup I've ever seen, and I absolutely hated it. X-Factor (which was the 5 original X-men) should have wiped the floor with them within minutes, other than Storm, Wolverine and Rogue only because of her strength.

To follow that, I've never liked any of those characters by themselves either, so anytime someone talks fondly of those characters or that era, I get very frustrated.

On the opposite side, there were a lot of 80s sci-fi shows that I loved growing up but they all got cancelled right away and many tend to put them down when they come up. Shows like Manimal, Automan, Misfits of Science. Might depend on how old you were when they were on.



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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,002


We're pretty much the same on Last Crusade and for the same reasons. Raiders was more real than reality for me. Last Crusade was cutesy.

Another movie I don't like that everyone else loves is Fight Club.

Also don't like Big Bang Theory.

Something I love that people don't is the Hobbit Trilogy of movies, which I think was done better than the LOTR trilogy. I also think Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were both good movies.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
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We must be about the same age. Manimal, Automan, and Misfits of Science were my jam. Also stopped liking the X-Men once the Mutant Massacre started because I didn't like the stories, art, or characters anymore.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,002


The only thing I didn't like about Seinfeld was the laugh track, and that I REALLY didn't like.


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Quantum


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Superman's Pal

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Jerry Seinfeld would contest you on that. They didn't use a laugh track but a live studio audience. Given that Jerry came from stand-up comedy, he felt the audience interaction was important and he always stresses that they earned every laugh, none of it was forced or canned.

But it's not for everyone, I suppose.



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Superman's Pal

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I also enjoyed Manimal, Automan, and Misfits of Science which were cancelled too early for my tastes. At least we got 3 seasons of Greatest American Hero. I also wish Battlestar Galactica lasted longer, supposedly the ratings were very high but it cost too much to produce. I liked Buck Rogers but it went off the rails pretty quickly.



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Superman's Pal

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    Quote:
    I don't see how people can even like Giffen's "5 Years Later" Legion of Superheroes.

I like it in and of itself, it is pretty far removed from LOSH but it is a very interesting and uniquely crafted comic unlike anything else really before or since (that I've read). But was it universally liked? As soon as the next creative team came in they pretty much reverted everything back to traditional superheroing.


    Quote:
    I like James Robinson's The Golden-Age as an elseworlds tale, but I tend to think it's highly over-rated. There is an underlying theme of sexism and misogyny to it that I don't think was meant to be a commentary on the post-WWII time but inherent in the writing and prevents it from aging well.

I would agree with that. I'm also not the biggest fan of Kingdom Come which was around the same time. It was an enjoyable enough Elseworlds, dystopian future. But it seems like people liked it so much they wanted to nudge the actual DCU in that direction. I thought we were supposed to fear the idea of the DCU becoming this monstrosity.

On that note I feel the same way about The Dark Knight Returns. But I read that one too late, I had already read several derivative works so this didn't seem very original. Again, though, it was like wouldn't it be terrible if Gotham became this and Batman became this? I didn't want to see it inform the current day Batman comics.

Even Alan Moore says Watchmen was a one-off, he likes superheroes too much to want the mainstream books to start following its model.



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