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How do you mean?

Although Al Ewing's story reads well; as far as storytelling goes; there were many changes made to the character that I felt were forced. To name a few... The entire green door idea didn't play out smoothly, suggesting it was always there didn't sit well with me. Hulk being an avatar for the One Below All aka the One Above All's lower evil self, also was forced and came out of nowhere. Al Ewing destroyed the 'Angelic' mythos surrounding Rebecca Banner by turning her into that whining neighbor chick from the Sopranos. Gamma stemming from pretty much Hell, when it is a force that permeates the entire universe makes no sense to me. Devil Hulk (an incarnation of evil) leading the "noble" fray doesn't work for me. Cosmic Ray's trumping gamma waves isn't scientifically sound, when in fact gamma waves are the most powerful energy in the electromagnetic spectrum known to us. The ending to this story seemed rushed. But my biggest PEEVE is that all things termed Hulk, are now forever linked to cannibalism in the MU proper. These are just a few concerns.

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How do you mean?


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Although Al Ewing's story reads well; as far as storytelling goes; there were many changes made to the character that I felt were forced. To name a few... The entire green door idea didn't play out smoothly, suggesting it was always there didn't sit well with me. Hulk being an avatar for the One Below All aka the One Above All's lower evil self, also was forced and came out of nowhere. Al Ewing destroyed the 'Angelic' mythos surrounding Rebecca Banner by turning her into that whining neighbor chick from the Sopranos. Gamma stemming from pretty much Hell, when it is a force that permeates the entire universe makes no sense to me. Devil Hulk (an incarnation of evil) leading the "noble" fray doesn't work for me. Cosmic Ray's trumping gamma waves isn't scientifically sound, when in fact gamma waves are the most powerful energy in the electromagnetic spectrum known to us. The ending to this story seemed rushed. But my biggest PEEVE is that all things termed Hulk, are now forever linked to cannibalism in the MU proper. These are just a few concerns.

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Comic energy/rays in the MU have almost always been depicted as the lifeblood of the universe and even intrinsically tied with the astral plane.  


Cosmic is used more in the sense of "universal" rather than "high-energy protons and atomic nuclei that move through space at nearly the speed of light" discovered and coined "cosmic rays" by Victor Hess in 1912.  


Cosmic powers in Marvel have almost always granted mastery over all natural forms of energy (including gamma) along with the fundamental forces.  
I would assume that's the angle Ewing took which would be consistent with Marvel's usage of "cosmic" since the Silver Age.  

Although much of what you state in the comics is true, the fact of the matter is that in reality Gamma Waves are the highest and most powerful form of energy known to man. All other cosmic i.e. magnetic spectrum energies are less in output. Maybe this is why in comics Stan Lee's and Jack Kirby's Hulk has UNLIMITED strength potential while that is not said of any cosmic powered beings. Subsequently She-Hulk, Hotshot and Sasquatch have been said, in comic, to have the unlimited gammafied power potential. My point... what's being written in comics about cosmic trumping gamma, is not scientifically sound.

Cosmic rays are particles, while gamma is a wave that functions different from a physical thing. We know that waves uninhabited will continuously pick up momentum to no end.

As far as the Higher beings in the MU, I'm sure most of them, though termed cosmic, use other forms of energy as well including mystical. Although beings like FF, Captain Marvel and the U-Foes are powered by cosmic, and Silver Surfer channels it, they differ from those Higher entity forms like Eternity, Stranger and the Watchers.

Now you're just reaching my friend. These energies have been talked about by those cosmic beings at some point, and in the early days of Marvel, Hulk was considered a universal threat by some of these higher beings.

Here's a definition for you...

Gamma rays have the smallest wavelengths and the most energy of any wave in the electromagnetic spectrum. They are produced by the hottest and most energetic objects in the universe, such as neutron stars and pulsars, supernova explosions, and regions around black holes.

All these energies, cosmic and gamma, exist outside of earth's atmosphere.

And again, as far as energies are concerned, Marvelly written, only gamma and Ghost Riders have been said to be unlimited or boundless. Give me an instant of a cosmic being being said to have no limit.

I never said mystical energies are cosmic in comics,  I said I'm sure the Higher entities utilize it as well.

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Now you're just reaching my friend. These energies have been talked about by those cosmic beings at some point, and in the early days of Marvel, Hulk was considered a universal threat by some of these higher beings.

I don't know if the board is acting up, but I can't seem to respond to your thread using the quote function.

Marvel's use of the term cosmic is pretty much the same as science's. The difference is that in this fictional world, it can give a character super powers. But generally speaking, they are thought of in terms as the same energies in the real world.

It was you that bought Victor Hess into the conversation. But fact of the matter is that the reason Marvel Comics has a term called "cosmic rays" is because of him.

FYI This is what science today knows of Gamma Rays...

https://youtu.be/rYVUhSloDfc

See the thing is the word cosmic is hundreds of years old with etymological roots tracing back millennia to ancient Greek.
Hess called his discovery “cosmic rays” because of the dictionary definition of cosmic which already existed.
Cosmic rays didn’t define the word cosmic, cosmic rays were called cosmic rays because they were of the cosmos as opposed to of the earth.

What I’m saying is that “cosmic” in Marvel is largely used in the classical sense and not always (or even usually) referring specifically to cosmic rays.

You keep sticking on this comparison between cosmic and gamma rays but I’m arguing that “cosmic” has a larger and older meaning than cosmic rays specifically.
Marvel writers know this and use the term accordingly.

Power Cosmic - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Cosmic entity/being - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Fantastic Four’s original cosmic rays - is referring to actual cosmic rays

Just for reference:

cosmic adjective
cos·​mic | \ ˈkäz-mik

Definition of cosmic
1. a: of or relating to the cosmos, the extraterrestrial vastness, or the universe in contrast to the earth alone
Example:
cosmic radiation

b: of, relating to, or concerned with abstract spiritual or metaphysical ideas
Example:
cosmic wisdom

2. characterized by greatness especially in extent, intensity, or comprehensiveness

Example:
a cosmic thinker
a book of cosmic significance
the power cosmic

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I was the one to first state that the terminology is the same in comics and the real world, it's just that the comics fictionalize the effects.Although MC fictionalize the effects of these energies, the name term "cosmic" is based on the dictionary definition. Marvel tends to use real world scientific terms, whereas DC was the company that came up with its own fictional energy sources.
The point I was making wasn't geared towards Ewing only, but Marvel in general. Cosmic on a  real world scientific level does not trump Gamma in terms of energy output, as the two clips I posted above show. It's just weird Science writers come up with. Gamma is just a more powerful force than anything known.




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I'll look into Kubik in terms of his power being unlimited. Here's Stan Lee and John Romita Jr speaking on how Hulk's power works. This is Marvel comics Gamma power, not cosmic.
https://youtu.be/HGI1_rAoYPM

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See the thing is the word cosmic is hundreds of years old with etymological roots tracing back millennia to ancient Greek.
Hess called his discovery “cosmic rays” because of the dictionary definition of cosmic which already existed.

Cosmic rays didn’t define the word cosmic, cosmic rays were called cosmic rays because they were of the cosmos as opposed to of the earth.

See the thing is the word cosmic is hundreds of years old with etymological roots tracing back millennia to ancient Greek.
Hess called his discovery “cosmic rays” because of the dictionary definition of cosmic which already existed.
Cosmic rays didn’t define the word cosmic, cosmic rays were called cosmic rays because they were of the cosmos as opposed to of the earth.

What I’m saying is that “cosmic” in Marvel is largely used in the classical sense and not always (or even usually) referring specifically to cosmic rays.

You keep sticking on this comparison between cosmic and gamma rays but I’m arguing that “cosmic” has a larger and older meaning than cosmic rays specifically.
Marvel writers know this and use the term accordingly.

Power Cosmic - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Cosmic entity/being - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Fantastic Four’s original cosmic rays - is referring to actual cosmic rays

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I was the one to first state that the terminology is the same in comics and the real world, it's just that the comics fictionalize the effects.Although MC fictionalize the effects of these energies, the name term "cosmic" is based on the dictionary definition. Marvel tends to use real world scientific terms, whereas DC was the company that came up with its own fictional energy sources.
The point I was making wasn't geared towards Ewing only, but Marvel in general. Cosmic on a  real world scientific level does not trump Gamma in terms of energy output, as the two clips I posted above show. It's just weird Science writers come up with. Gamma is just a more powerful force than anything known.




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I'll look into Kubik in terms of his power being unlimited. Here's Stan Lee and John Romita Jr speaking on how Hulk's power works. This is Marvel comics Gamma power, not cosmic.
https://youtu.be/HGI1_rAoYPM

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See the thing is the word cosmic is hundreds of years old with etymological roots tracing back millennia to ancient Greek.
Hess called his discovery “cosmic rays” because of the dictionary definition of cosmic which already existed.
Cosmic rays didn’t define the word cosmic, cosmic rays were called cosmic rays because they were of the cosmos as opposed to of the earth.

I don't have a disagreement with this point.

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What I’m saying is that “cosmic” in Marvel is largely used in the classical sense and not always (or even usually) referring specifically to cosmic rays.

If you're agreeing with the fact that by "classical" you mean the term "cosmic" means universe, then I must state this is the point I was making. Marvel is using real world terminology to describe its fictional universe.

But I disagree with you in that there use of "cosmic rays" is also in accord with the real world's term. It just has super human results at times.

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You keep sticking on this comparison between cosmic and gamma rays but I’m arguing that “cosmic” has a larger and older meaning than cosmic rays specifically.
Marvel writers know this and use the term accordingly.

You're totally missing my initial point then. My entire argument is based on the fact that gamma waves, in the real world, are more powerful than any other cosmic ray or energy.

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Power Cosmic - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Cosmic entity/being - cosmic is being used in the classical sense
Fantastic Four’s original cosmic rays - is referring to actual cosmic rays

By that vague of a definition though, gamma as well would be a subset of "cosmic" energies, as indeed Ewing showed both originate from the same source in the end.

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By that vague of a definition though, gamma as well would be a subset of "cosmic" energies, as indeed Ewing showed both originate from the same source in the end.


And it tracks that entities of an abstract nature partake of the power balance between the forces they embody, so the Power Cosmic we have so far seen is not limited to traditional "cosmic rays". Indeed we have often seen Surfer or major gods manipulate both gamma and cosmic before. Magic is kind of a third pole, as it behaves in its own way when interacting with both, while Gamma and Cosmic are mostly "scientific" but the higher you go in the abstract territory  the more blurred the lines become between the scientific and the magical.


I guess this is just a semantic game to keep the illusion that gamma is more powerful than cosmic, while from what Ewing showed us it's just a balanced coin. Gamma is more destructive in nature, Cosmic is just as potentially powerful in opposing destruction/creating though.


Of course both can be used to punch/explode something very very hard if the story needed them to.

I was purposely being brief as I addressed it in an above post that some scientists say that gamma is the highest form of cosmic energy.

It's not semantics, this is science. Different energies differ because they have different frequencies that cause different effects.

However, you have hit the nail in the head , we are not talking about reality but comics which as we all know relate very little to reality as we know it.

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However, you have hit the nail in the head , we are not talking about reality but comics which as we all know relate very little to reality as we know it.


Right from the Silver age the cosmic powers have always been shown to be way beyond any other form of energy or power. Just look at how easy Silver Surfer took care of the Hulk in their first meeting.


Indeed as Stan himself pointed out on more than one occasion he invented Thor to be more powerful than the Hulk and indeed initially was more powerful even than Silver Surfer, just look at very first clash in Silver Surfer 4.

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What Stan & Jack intended is massively important as it was their characters and they knew what they wanted. Sadly modern Marvel writers/editors have no respect for tradition or history of characters.


For the record, the Savage Hulk of the 60's early 70's is still my favourite version and will always be the true Hulk to me.

I'm not sure why the quote function does not work when I reply to your thread.

Galactus is not omnipotent. He needs to eat to sustain himself, otherwise he'll die.

Your fanboy revisionist idea of how Surfer could have broken the barrier is more out of this world than he is.

-- Feel free to quote me saying Galactus is omnipotent.
I have not typed those words in this discussion and you really should try to read more carefully.

Regarding the power of Galactus, he IS the metamorphosed embodiment of the 6th cosmos and only has his hunger affliction because he exists in an imperfect state due to having his incubation interrupted per Ewing's Ultimates run.

-- What fanboy revisionist idea of how Surfer could have broken out of the barrier?

I presented no alternative ideas I simply said the Hulk posed a much more realistic option for quick power boost for Surfer as opposed to someone like Stranger then laid out the logic behind that rationale.

I was NOT suggesting Surfer could subdue and drain the Stranger (like he did Hulk), in fact I was suggesting exactly the opposite.
It's really apparent you're skimming then reacting to my posts more than reading and comprehending them.

-- You seem to be under the revisionist fanboy delusion that *only* gamma power would allow the Surfer to break through the barrier when that is a totally illogical conclusion and not supported by the story.

Exceeding the mechanics of the barrier was spelled out in the story if you've ever actually read it which I begin to doubt.
Hulk's gamma power was **A** way for Surfer to boost his power by enough to pierce the barrier and was never suggested to be the *ONLY* way.

-- Speaking of revisionist fanboy ideas your assertion that "cosmic" always equates to "cosmic rays" in Marvel is exactly that.

I think I do get why you argue this position and its all borne out of Hulk bias - a way to rationalize Hulk being "greater" or having more potential than all cosmic characters.

It must have really stung when Ewing made cosmic energy trump gamma energy, eh?
I think I get why you *really* hated Ewing's run.

I still can't wait for you to experience Cates.
I'll be sure to check back in with you in 12-14 months to rub salt in that wound.

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I'm not sure why the quote function does not work when I reply to your thread.


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Galactus is not omnipotent. He needs to eat to sustain himself, otherwise he'll die.


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Your fanboy revisionist idea of how Surfer could have broken the barrier is more out of this world than he is.

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-- Feel free to quote me saying Galactus is omnipotent.
I have not typed those words in this discussion and you really should try to read more carefully.

Here's your exact words..."Odin, Galactus, Celestials, etc. have all been called omnipotent and omniscient by Stan Lee as the narrator."

https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=hulk-2021112919381517&layout=thread

Check my Battle Boards stats before you come at me with nonsense.

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Regarding the power of Galactus, he IS the metamorphosed embodiment of the 6th cosmos and only has his hunger affliction because he exists in an imperfect state due to having his incubation interrupted per Ewing's Ultimates run.

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-- What fanboy revisionist idea of how Surfer could have broken out of the barrier?

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I presented no alternative ideas I simply said the Hulk posed a much more realistic option for quick power boost for Surfer as opposed to someone like Stranger then laid out the logic behind that rationale.

I was NOT suggesting Surfer could subdue and drain the Stranger (like he did Hulk), in fact I was suggesting exactly the opposite.
It's really apparent you're skimming then reacting to my posts more than reading and comprehending them.

-- You seem to be under the revisionist fanboy delusion that *only* gamma power would allow the Surfer to break through the barrier when that is a totally illogical conclusion and not supported by the story.

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Exceeding the mechanics of the barrier was spelled out in the story if you've ever actually read it which I begin to doubt.
Hulk's gamma power was **A** way for Surfer to boost his power by enough to pierce the barrier and was never suggested to be the *ONLY* way.

-- Speaking of revisionist fanboy ideas your assertion that "cosmic" always equates to "cosmic rays" in Marvel is exactly that.

I think I do get why you argue this position and its all borne out of Hulk bias - a way to rationalize Hulk being "greater" or having more potential than all cosmic characters.

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It must have really stung when Ewing made cosmic energy trump gamma energy, eh?
I think I get why you *really* hated Ewing's run.

I still can't wait for you to experience Cates.
I'll be sure to check back in with you in 12-14 months to rub salt in that wound.

Sure thing. I'll await your arrival. Next time, try to remember what you said.

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