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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,581


Of course, I am speaking about ... Roxxon

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/roxxon.htm

It is only a juridical person and the owners & CEO have often changed but, no matter what, Roxxon is one of the recurring adversaries of Tony Stark & Iron Man.

Some theories even imply that the corporation might have killed Howard & Maria Stark.



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


I think Roxxon like Hammer make perfect enemies of Stark.

They are the dark side and truthfully more realistic real-world evil empires as opposed to Starks empire of companies being of the most noble bent.

Now I know Mandarin would say this is boring and all corporate intrigue...but if you present it more like empires and delve deeply into the people it affects and so on I see some great stories that could be told. Don't focus on all the board meetings...focus on the destruction and world dominating plots of Roxxon and Hammer...and Tony fighting them behind the scenes or in the public light with his technical genius + his corporate assets which include a star supporting cast like Dave and Bob had for us.


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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,581



    Quote:
    I think Roxxon like Hammer make perfect enemies of Stark.

    They are the dark side and truthfully more realistic real-world evil empires as opposed to Starks empire of companies being of the most noble bent.

    Now I know Mandarin would say this is boring and all corporate intrigue...but if you present it more like empires and delve deeply into the people it affects and so on I see some great stories that could be told. Don't focus on all the board meetings...focus on the destruction and world dominating plots of Roxxon and Hammer...and Tony fighting them behind the scenes or in the public light with his technical genius + his corporate assets which include a star supporting cast like Dave and Bob had for us.

\:\-\)

One of the things that I found interesting about Roxxon is that the company itself has become an adversary of most Marvel superheroes on Earth no matter who the shareholders or the CEO of the corporation are.

Since the disappearances of their founders, Stane International & Hammer Industries have become shades of their former glory but Roxxon is as powerful as ever.

Although, in theory, Roxxon could be annihilated, through merger, acquisition or bankruptcy, the corporation seems unkillable.


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The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,312


You misunderstand me. I don't object to corporate villains. I object to Stark being emphasized as a businessman when he should be an inventor who happens to own a business. And I object to Stark defending money rather than defending people. Stark's superpower should not be money. What Stark defends should not primarily be money.

I also like the idea of Pepper as a brilliant businesswoman. In my opinion, Pepper should be boring to the point of caricature. She should be so boring that it crosses the line twice into being funny. She should be the goddess of business graphs and business law. That way her and Stark make this team with great chemistry: Stark the wildly creative inventor with a Nutty Professor/Sherlock combo vibe to him, and Pepper the solid businesswoman trying to reign him in.

I have no problem with corporate villains. In fact, I think most of Stark's villains should be much richer than he is, and own far more corporate assets.




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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I think Roxxon like Hammer make perfect enemies of Stark.



    Quote:
    They are the dark side and truthfully more realistic real-world evil empires as opposed to Starks empire of companies being of the most noble bent.


Add in Alchemax for the triptych. I am 100% in favor of Tony regularly fighting these three evil corporations.

If arch enemies are supposed to be dark reflections of the hero, then these three evil corporations, being dark reflections of Stark Industries (or whatever the right name is nowadays) are tailor made to be arch enemies of Iron Man.

Who does Captain America fight? Most iconically, in my opinion, he fights HYDRA and other such dark reflections of SHIELD. Consider the name of that agency. SHIELD. Consider the fact that Captain America often fought alongside Nick Fury and other agents of that proud entity. Cap's greatest enemies are not individuals. They're evil collectives.

Spider-Man's greatest enemies are individuals. And that is exactly as it should be. That's what makes him Spider-Man. Everything is always about the individual with him.

Iron Man is more like Captain America. In fact they go together like chocolate and peanut butter. Like Cap, I think Iron Man is at his most iconic when he's fighting evil collectives, which, in Iron Man's case. would most organically be evil corporations.

Now this still leaves plenty of room for costumed super-villains. These guys would simply be hired by the corporations. I mean, let's face it, costumed super-villains are almost always hired by somebody.


    Quote:
    Now I know Mandarin would say this is boring and all corporate intrigue...but if you present it more like empires and delve deeply into the people it affects and so on I see some great stories that could be told.


Definitely. Warren Ellis is doing a two year maxi-series for DC titled "Wildstorm" which is a masterful take on evil corporations that have used their super-wealth to dominate on a global (or even greater) scale. There is nothing the least bit boring about this maxi-series. Quite the opposite. It's one of the best things on the shelves right now.


    Quote:
    Don't focus on all the board meetings...


Agreed. Unless someone will be shot in the head at the meeting. Then, fine.


    Quote:
    ...focus on the destruction and world dominating plots of Roxxon and Hammer...and Tony fighting them behind the scenes or in the public light with his technical genius + his corporate assets which include a star supporting cast like Dave and Bob had for us.


See "Wildstorm" for how to set this all up for exciting action and intrigue.






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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


Is wildstorm a new series? Sounds interesting.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Is wildstorm a new series? Sounds interesting.


Fairly new. It's still under way. They've reached issue 11 or thereabouts. Highly recommended. Probably an especially good read in TPB so if you go that route for the first six issues I think you'll be happy.
Wildstorm Volume 1








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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,581



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Happy Hogan 

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think Roxxon like Hammer make perfect enemies of Stark.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        They are the dark side and truthfully more realistic real-world evil empires as opposed to Starks empire of companies being of the most noble bent.



    Quote:
    Add in Alchemax for the triptych. I am 100% in favor of Tony regularly fighting these three evil corporations.



    Quote:
    If arch enemies are supposed to be dark reflections of the hero, then these three evil corporations, being dark reflections of Stark Industries (or whatever the right name is nowadays) are tailor made to be arch enemies of Iron Man.


But Tony Stark isn't a corporation.


    Quote:
    Who does Captain America fight? Most iconically, in my opinion, he fights HYDRA and other such dark reflections of SHIELD. Consider the name of that agency. SHIELD. Consider the fact that Captain America often fought alongside Nick Fury and other agents of that proud entity. Cap's greatest enemies are not individuals. They're evil collectives.


Captain America is supposed to represent an idea, so his enemies should maybe represent opposing ideas.


    Quote:
    Spider-Man's greatest enemies are individuals. And that is exactly as it should be. That's what makes him Spider-Man. Everything is always about the individual with him.


Iron Man and Captain America should also be about the individuals at least to the point of figuring where individuals fit into a collective.




    Quote:
    Iron Man is more like Captain America. In fact they go together like chocolate and peanut butter. Like Cap, I think Iron Man is at his most iconic when he's fighting evil collectives, which, in Iron Man's case. would most organically be evil corporations.



    Quote:
    Now this still leaves plenty of room for costumed super-villains. These guys would simply be hired by the corporations. I mean, let's face it, costumed super-villains are almost always hired by somebody.


Those supervillains would just become hired hands. That would mean, especially in Shellhead's case, the book would be a rich Knight fighting peasants that work for anonymous rich guys.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Now I know Mandarin would say this is boring and all corporate intrigue...but if you present it more like empires and delve deeply into the people it affects and so on I see some great stories that could be told.



    Quote:
    Definitely. Warren Ellis is doing a two year maxi-series for DC titled "Wildstorm" which is a masterful take on evil corporations that have used their super-wealth to dominate on a global (or even greater) scale. There is nothing the least bit boring about this maxi-series. Quite the opposite. It's one of the best things on the shelves right now.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Don't focus on all the board meetings...



    Quote:
    Agreed. Unless someone will be shot in the head at the meeting. Then, fine.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      ...focus on the destruction and world dominating plots of Roxxon and Hammer...and Tony fighting them behind the scenes or in the public light with his technical genius + his corporate assets which include a star supporting cast like Dave and Bob had for us.



    Quote:
    See "Wildstorm" for how to set this all up for exciting action and intrigue.







America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    But Tony Stark isn't a corporation.


I think he is. In part. Capitalist and inventor. The capitalist is impossible without the inventor and the inventor is impossible without the capitalist. If Tony had never become Iron Man, his entire legacy would be Stark Industries. When Tony Stark was constantly being called to testify in front of Senate sub-committees, they weren't calling him because he invented things. They were calling him because he owned and represented Stark Industries.

Part of the reason the Iron Man comic has often lost its way is the tendency to want to forget the capitalist and focus only on the inventor. But look at Tony. Just look at his face. Look at that mustache. That's the Howard Hughes mustache of a capitalist. In fact the Howard Hughes reference is particularly apt. Howard Hughes was an aviator. Tony is too. His aeroplane is his armor. Howard Hughes was also a great innovator, as is Tony.

If capitalism had a conscience it would be Tony Stark.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Who does Captain America fight? Most iconically, in my opinion, he fights HYDRA and other such dark reflections of SHIELD. Consider the name of that agency. SHIELD. Consider the fact that Captain America often fought alongside Nick Fury and other agents of that proud entity. Cap's greatest enemies are not individuals. They're evil collectives.


    Captain America is supposed to represent an idea, so his enemies should maybe represent opposing ideas.


And they do, HYDRA most of all. But it's not a philosophy debate. HYDRA is the physical embodiment of might makes right. Cap is the physical emmbodiment of right makes might. That's the real American ideal. Right makes might. That's Captain America's great source of courage and determination. He believes he will win because he's on the side of right. And he wins. Because his body can do what his mind conceives, and because his mind conceives victory when others would see only defeat. HYDRA will throw hordes against him. Cap will beat them all. Partly because his body is better, partly because his mind is better, but ultimately because he truly believes right makes might. The HYDRA goons put the cart before the horse. As they fall like dominoes all around the furious fists of the champion, they lose their nerve, because they relied for courage on their numbers, and they see the inefficacy of numbers against a human dynamo whose courage is self-reliant and a self-fulfilling prophecy.


    Quote:
    Iron Man and Captain America should also be about the individuals at least to the point of figuring where individuals fit into a collective.


Cap and Iron Man care about individuals, of course. But their destinies are bigger than that. They both represent America. That's the other thing the comics lost sight of in the late sixties and never found again. It isn't just Cap who represents America. Iron Man does too.


    Quote:
    Those supervillains would just become hired hands. That would mean, especially in Shellhead's case, the book would be a rich Knight fighting peasants that work for anonymous rich guys.


Super-villains almost always ARE hired hands. I'm not proposing this. It's simply the case. You've got your masterminds and you've got your thugs. The thugs are almost always hired hands. They work for the masterminds. Some thugs are even intelligent and sophisticated. Spymaster gets paid. Taskmaster gets paid. Sure, some thugs are independent. They rob banks. But Tony doesn't foil bank robberies. Neither does Cap. That's Spider-Man territory.






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The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,312





    Quote:
    Part of the reason the Iron Man comic has often lost its way is the tendency to want to forget the capitalist and focus only on the inventor.

I find the opposite. Focusing on the capitalist was killing Stark before the movies came out. He had become this dry businessman/politician who only worked as the villain in other people's stories.


    Quote:
    If capitalism had a conscience it would be Tony Stark.

Capitalism with a conscience isn't capitalism. It is literally the fiduciary responsibility of those running corporations to behave as tribalist sociopaths. If they don't, they are either fired, or simply lose the financial competition to those who ARE willing to behave as tribalist sociopaths. Consequently, a conscience can only be imposed on capitalism from outside, in the form of regulation that applies to everyone. A self-imposed conscience from a capitalist is financial suicide, which is why, in the absence of regulation, capitalism quickly deteriorates into monopolies and oligopolies behaving monstrously.








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America's Captain 

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      Part of the reason the Iron Man comic has often lost its way is the tendency to want to forget the capitalist and focus only on the inventor.

    I find the opposite. Focusing on the capitalist was killing Stark before the movies came out. He had become this dry businessman/politician who only worked as the villain in other people's stories.


That's because the writers don't get the capitalist side. "Dry businessman/politician" isn't necessary, it's just what these writers did. Howard Hughes wasn't dry. Real capitalists aren't dry. They're full of passion. "Let's build a railroad!" "Let's build a suspennsion bridge!" "Let's build a telecommunications network!" There's nothing dry about any of that. It's adventurous and bold and bigger than life. It's the spirit of the conqueror turned productive and pro-social.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      If capitalism had a conscience it would be Tony Stark.


    Capitalism with a conscience isn't capitalism. It is literally the fiduciary responsibility of those running corporations to behave as tribalist sociopaths. If they don't, they are either fired, or simply lose the financial competition to those who ARE willing to behave as tribalist sociopaths. Consequently, a conscience can only be imposed on capitalism from outside, in the form of regulation that applies to everyone. A self-imposed conscience from a capitalist is financial suicide, which is why, in the absence of regulation, capitalism quickly deteriorates into monopolies and oligopolies behaving monstrously.


Unless your name is Tony Stark. That's my whole point. Think about what you wrote and then realize Tony defies every word of it. He will defeat these soulless sociopaths. He will build the best and the biggest and the boldest and he will do it without sacrificing his soul. He will stand with clean hands and watch the bloody-handed ones slink into the shadows in defeat. That is his heroism when not in the armor. He represents an ideal we sorely need. That's why I said "if" - "if" - capitalism had a conscience it would be Tony Stark. Even if he weren't Iron Man, he would be one of the greatest men on Earth.

Do any Marvel writers comprehend what I'm saying? No, probably not. But that's their failure, not mine.

I think maybe Chuck Dixon could write the Iron Man who lives in my imagination. Also possibly Dan Jurgens.















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The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,312



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Part of the reason the Iron Man comic has often lost its way is the tendency to want to forget the capitalist and focus only on the inventor.

      I find the opposite. Focusing on the capitalist was killing Stark before the movies came out. He had become this dry businessman/politician who only worked as the villain in other people's stories.



    Quote:
    That's because the writers don't get the capitalist side. "Dry businessman/politician" isn't necessary, it's just what these writers did. Howard Hughes wasn't dry. Real capitalists aren't dry. They're full of passion. "Let's build a railroad!" "Let's build a suspennsion bridge!" "Let's build a telecommunications network!" There's nothing dry about any of that. It's adventurous and bold and bigger than life. It's the spirit of the conqueror turned productive and pro-social.


Yeah, in the context of a comicbook, that's pretty dry. Much more important than my personal opinion: I can't find any financially successful movies centering on a portrayal of business as heroic. There's plenty of movies about evil corporate types being brought down or self-destructing, but no successful ones about them as heroes. (I don't count films like Iron Man and Batman because they just use owning a company as a plot-device in a story about an inventor and a detective, respectively) Indeed, one of the extremely few heroic businessman movies I have even been able to find, "Tucker: The Man and His Dream" flopped hard.








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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Yeah, in the context of a comicbook, that's pretty dry. Much more important than my personal opinion: I can't find any financially successful movies centering on a portrayal of business as heroic. There's plenty of movies about evil corporate types being brought down or self-destructing, but no successful ones about them as heroes. (I don't count films like Iron Man and Batman because they just use owning a company as a plot-device in a story about an inventor and a detective, respectively) Indeed, one of the extremely few heroic businessman movies I have even been able to find, "Tucker: The Man and His Dream" flopped hard.


Right, but the comic isn't titled Business Man. It's Iron Man. Tony as capitalist is the alter ego. How many movies about a heroic photographer did you find? Probably not too many. Fortunately, that other comic isn't titled The Amazing Camera Man.

Incidentally, Oskar Schindler was a German businessman. Pretty cool film: Schindler's List.

And then there was the 1947 John Wayne film Tycoon.
Tycoon according to Wikipedia

Also, when I did an image search for "heroic industrialist" the very second image was - well, I've attached it so you can see it for yourself. I've also attached the 10th image. The 25th image as well because it made me smile.






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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


I think this is one thing Dave and Bob did well.

They actually made Stark Industries a living breathing thing from the gate guard to the secretary to many others. It showed Stark as a mixture of capitalism and noblesse oblige.

It's always easy to show the evil business because so many if not all of them irl are...but it would be nice to see a more altruistic Business model that worked with Stark leading the charge, dealing with those wanting to destroy science, innovation, independent thought and so on.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I think this is one thing Dave and Bob did well.



    Quote:
    They actually made Stark Industries a living breathing thing from the gate guard to the secretary to many others. It showed Stark as a mixture of capitalism and noblesse oblige.


Exactly! I applaud them for that. Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, and Don Heck accomplished much the same thing. In the beginning, Happy Hogan and Pepper Potts were the same sort of characters as the gate guard and the secretary you mention in your comment. And yes, noblesse oblige is part of the dynamic. A more American phrase might be civic duty. The successful have often felt this obligation. One modern manifestation of this impulse is the Rotary Club.
The Rotary Club according to Wikipedia


    Quote:
    It's always easy to show the evil business because so many if not all of them irl are...but it would be nice to see a more altruistic Business model that worked with Stark leading the charge, dealing with those wanting to destroy science, innovation, independent thought and so on.


Productive and pro-social are sufficient for the alter ego role, in my opinion, though Tony would very likely be a Rotarian or some equivalent. Civic duty (or noblesse oblige if you like) would be natural for him, as it is for Bruce Wayne. I'm shying away from the last part of your sentence due to the political implications because, sadly, in America, such ideas as you raise at the end of your sentence have become politicized.

But at the start of your sentence you mention evil businesspersons (I'm assuming you meant to type "persons" or "people" or perhaps "men") and yes, evil of that sort runs rampant in our real world as it does in the Marvel reality. That's where IRON MAN comes in. Roxxon, Hammer, Alchemax - these are the iconic evil business empires in the Marvel reality. Tony would find them particularly offensive. They represent the antipode of everything he stands for. They turn what ought to be honorable (ambition, pride, spirit of excellence, audacity, energy, vision, creativity, intelligence, discipline, experience, skill) into something despicable, vile, loathesome, noxious. They are a perversion, a corruption of everything he admires, aspires to, and holds dear. They are his natural enemies. He would fight them to his last breath. And because they don't hesitate to kill and destroy, he would garb himself in iron.






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The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,312


I just finished binging Altered Carbon and I once again noted the absolute hatred of the oligarchy present in modern writing. It is clear to me, more than ever, that Iron Man's enemies need to be richer than he is. It shouldn't even be competitive.




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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I just finished binging Altered Carbon and I once again noted the absolute hatred of the oligarchy present in modern writing. It is clear to me, more than ever, that Iron Man's enemies need to be richer than he is. It shouldn't even be competitive.


You lose me with comments like that. Tony is one of the richest men in the world. It doesn't matter if people love or hate the super-rich. Tony is super-rich. He just is. The writers need to find a way to make him beloved by the fans regardless. Nor is this difficult. Show him doing terrific things like saving people's lives and there you go: problem solved. Show him saving little babies from a fiery death in a burning hospital building. Show him saving puppies and kittens from being crushed underfoot by Fin Fang Foom. There you go: problem solved.

Once Tony puts on the armor he becomes Iron Man, defender of the defenseless and rescuer of the imperiled. Show him catching and safely landing a 747 that was about to crash. Show him yanking free an unstable nuclear core from its place in the reactor and flying it up to the stratosphere where it can explode safely. For maximum melodrama have the explosion knock him unconscious and show him toppling helpless into the sea.

The difficulty isn't that the readers dislike Tony Stark, industrialist. The difficulty is that the writers don't like him. And this problem too is easily solved. Don't hire these writers for the Iron Man comic. Let them write something else.














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The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,312




    Quote:
    Tony is super-rich. He just is.


If Stark is a billionaire, then his enemies need to be trillionaires. That's not even that big a change: The Mandarin probably spent upwards of a trillion dollars on his invasion of Russia alone, and it was implied that he did it on a whim. But it needs to be emphasized.






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I just finished binging Altered Carbon and I once again noted the absolute hatred of the oligarchy present in modern writing. It is clear to me, more than ever, that Iron Man's enemies need to be richer than he is. It shouldn't even be competitive.



    Quote:
    You lose me with comments like that. Tony is one of the richest men in the world. It doesn't matter if people love or hate the super-rich. Tony is super-rich. He just is. The writers need to find a way to make him beloved by the fans regardless. Nor is this difficult. Show him doing terrific things like saving people's lives and there you go: problem solved. Show him saving little babies from a fiery death in a burning hospital building. Show him saving puppies and kittens from being crushed underfoot by Fin Fang Foom. There you go: problem solved.


I agree. He's super rich...we have to accept it. He's not the underdog. He's the...overdog \:\)







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America's Captain 

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      Tony is super-rich. He just is.



    Quote:
    If Stark is a billionaire, then his enemies need to be trillionaires. That's not even that big a change: The Mandarin probably spent upwards of a trillion dollars on his invasion of Russia, and it was implied that he did it on a whim. But it needs to be emphasized.


Because whoever has the most money is the most evil? Only the writers think this. The readers couldn't care less. If the readers haven't found a reason to like Tony it's because the writers haven't written Tony with the proper level of heroism.

What we need is for the writers to stop bringing their political agenda to the comic.

WRITER: I lean socialist so I hate all capitalists and industrialists and Tony Stark is both so I will portray him as the biggest schmuck ever. Watch me do it.

READERS: Wow. Look at what Tony Stark just did. He's a big schmuck.

AMAZINGLY NON-MORONIC MARVEL EDITOR: Yo, Writer, you're fired. Get the heck out of this building and don't come back. What the heck were you thinking? Sheesh!







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    Unless your name is Tony Stark. That's my whole point. Think about what you wrote and then realize Tony defies every word of it. He will defeat these soulless sociopaths. He will build the best and the biggest and the boldest and he will do it without sacrificing his soul. He will stand with clean hands and watch the bloody-handed ones slink into the shadows in defeat. That is his heroism when not in the armor. He represents an ideal we sorely need. That's why I said "if" - "if" - capitalism had a conscience it would be Tony Stark. Even if he weren't Iron Man, he would be one of the greatest men on Earth.



    Quote:
    Do any Marvel writers comprehend what I'm saying? No, probably not. But that's their failure, not mine.



    Quote:
    I think maybe Chuck Dixon could write the Iron Man who lives in my imagination. Also possibly Dan Jurgens.


Personally I don't think Stan Lee even liked Iron Man. He bailed on Iron Man before the ongoing even started back when Tony was still in Tales of Suspense.

I don't think Stan even knew how to really sell Tony as a protagonist to root for. He created him to rub people the wrong way...making the person who checks all the boxes for the guy you would absolutely hate and made him the hero. Tony was an experiment that accidentally worked out well. I don't think Stan had any faith that his Iron Man experiment would work out when he started.







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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,581



    Quote:
    I just finished binging Altered Carbon and I once again noted the absolute hatred of the oligarchy present in modern writing. It is clear to me, more than ever, that Iron Man's enemies need to be richer than he is. It shouldn't even be competitive.


Even though Roxxon started as a private joke from Steve Englehart about Exxon, it has become the nearly unbeatable Marvel antagonist : too huge, too important to ever really fall.

It is possible to beat one of their executives or even one of the shareholders (such as Aleksander Lukin) but Roxxon remains.

The only other corporation with as much power as Roxxon might be Alchemax but only in the near future (2099).

Even in the MCU, its presence made itself felt in the 3 Iron Man movies. Interestingly enough, each time, it was during one of the battles against the main opponent (Obadiah Stane, Ivan Vanko, Aldrich Killian).


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


Yeah...I see where Mandy is going and that might get a few of your anti-capitalist writers to not write him as so much a douche bag, but the problem is letting writers who have their own agendas be they social or personal issues and who don't LIKE the character be in charge.

The Knauffs might be the last writers that I can think about that seemed to actually like him as a concept at least a little bit.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Yeah...I see where Mandy is going and that might get a few of your anti-capitalist writers to not write him as so much a douche bag, but the problem is letting writers who have their own agendas be they social or personal issues and who don't LIKE the character be in charge.


Exactly. If you can't leave your politics at the door, then don't write the comic.


    Quote:
    The Knauffs might be the last writers that I can think about that seemed to actually like him as a concept at least a little bit.


I agree.

As I've noted before, Chuck Dixon or Dan Jurgens could probably write Tony Stark, capitalist, as a positive, heroic figure.

Almost any of the Golden Age writers could have done it, but of course most (if not all) of them are gone now, sadly.

Mike Grell could do it. He's 70 now but still seems to have his faculties.

John Ostrander could do it. He's 68 now but still seems to have most of his faculties, though he has glaucoma.

Notice how I'm picking older guys. That's on purpose.






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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


I wasn't a fan of Grell on anything but street level characters.


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,338


I can agree with this...I would find it interesting him fighting their influence and it would meet Mandy's requirement partially...his wealth may equal THIERs...ONE of THIERS, but not combined.


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