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sonofzeus




I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two. So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid). Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.


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MattS80




> I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two. So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid). Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.


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Disel




> I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two.
So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid).


You're wrong, Grundy's not always been a Superman level foe his strength level's fluxated A LOT over the years. Everytime he's died and been reborn he's been so with a different strenght level. For all we know his strength could be pretty average this time.

Nice compliment btw u're giving Meltzer comparing his JLA with one of the greatest comicbooks ever - Sin City.


Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.


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sonofzeus




Yes, it's true that Grundy's strength has fluctuated over the years, but did you get the impression that this was one of his wimp versions? He tossed Red Tornado around like he was nothing, and was fully prepared to duke it out with the whole JLA. So, do you think he was stronger or weaker than a tree?

As for Sin City, I'm fully aware that Miller's sickening work is popular among a certain segment of bloodthirsty, misogynistic young males. I've long out-grown my angry-young-man stage.


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Ironing Man




I really hope Meltzer sticks to what he's doing. I've loved every bit of it. He also said in an interview that he's setting the team for the next writer, so take a break and come back around issue 12 when a new writer is on board.


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Ironing Man




> Yes, it's true that Grundy's strength has fluctuated over the years, but did you get the impression that this was one of his wimp versions? He tossed Red Tornado around like he was nothing, and was fully prepared to duke it out with the whole JLA. So, do you think he was stronger or weaker than a tree?
>
> As for Sin City, I'm fully aware that Miller's sickening work is popular among a certain segment of bloodthirsty, misogynistic young males. I've long out-grown my angry-young-man stage.

I commented on your origial post, but I had to jump in here. I hate people who make assumptions and ignorant comments. It's fine for you not to like something, but don't put down other people who do. There's a lot of fans of that book, and I have yet to meet one who is a bloodthirsty mysoginist. And FYI I didn't enjoy Sin City comic, but I did enjoy the movie.



...And on topic. I loved this issue of JLA.


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Seyg-El




> I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two. So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid). Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.

Hey, I really enjoyed this arc. Some thought it was too slow, but I liked the fact that it read a bit heavy on interaction, and less on action. You don't see it often, and as long as it is occasional, it works for me.

And how Red Tornado took care of Grundy worked for me. We know that Grundy's strength, durability, and intelligence varies greatly each time he dies and is resurrected. But we've seen Grundy get killed when he was exhibiting a high level of strength. Back in James Robinson's Starman series, Grundy died after a building he was holding up collapsed on him. So just because he may be in Superman's strength class at some point doesn't mean he's as durable. Plus, Grundy is more plant matter than anything (see Robinson's Starman, again), so yes...the tree analogy worked well here.

Again, I enjoyed it. If you didn't like it, drop the title. I'm sure you've got other things you can spend you're money on.


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sonofzeus




> > Yes, it's true that Grundy's strength has fluctuated over the years, but did you get the impression that this was one of his wimp versions? He tossed Red Tornado around like he was nothing, and was fully prepared to duke it out with the whole JLA. So, do you think he was stronger or weaker than a tree?
> >
> > As for Sin City, I'm fully aware that Miller's sickening work is popular among a certain segment of bloodthirsty, misogynistic young males. I've long out-grown my angry-young-man stage.
>
> I commented on your origial post, but I had to jump in here. I hate people who make assumptions and ignorant comments. It's fine for you not to like something, but don't put down other people who do. There's a lot of fans of that book, and I have yet to meet one who is a bloodthirsty mysoginist. And FYI I didn't enjoy Sin City comic, but I did enjoy the movie.
>




Ah, so you're one of those who have an 'anything goes' philosophy. Sorry, but in a democratic society, it's hardly ignorant to be condemning of a form of entertainment(and those who consume it), that can be seen as damaging to society in general(ignorance implies the critic doesn't know what he's talking about). Are people who engage in(or view for fun) extreme fighting, dwarf-tossing, drag-racing, jackass movies, etc, etc above criticism? If they like it so much, then they should be able to defend their choice from those who don't.

Which brings me to another point. Since you liked it so much, why didn't you say what was so redeeming about the film? Alot of people say they liked the movie but never say why. Was it the scene where Bruce Willis rips the pedophiles genitals off with his bare hands? Or where Jessica Alba gets a whipping, but looks as if she's enjoying it? Please elaborate.

How does this tie in to JLA? Did we really need to see Tornado's arm get ripped off? Kids do read comics you know. It seems to me that Meltzer wants to be the new Miller. In an adult comic that's fine. You'll forgive my 'ignorance' if I remain critical of something that's also meant to be enjoyed by children.
>


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Zazu




> Again, I enjoyed it. If you didn't like it, drop the title. I'm sure you've got other things you can spend you're money on.

Personally, I disagree with the "drop the title if you don't like it" argument. If you're trying something new, then sure, but this is something many of us have been reading all of our lives. Why should someone have to drop the title because of the writing? We love the characters. They've been written well in the past. I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting good, if not great, writing on one of DC's big titles. I have dropped the title in the past for bad writing and/or bad art, but why should I have to do that when it is normally a book I love to read?


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Ed Love




> > I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two. So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid). Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.
>
> Hey, I really enjoyed this arc. Some thought it was too slow, but I liked the fact that it read a bit heavy on interaction, and less on action. You don't see it often, and as long as it is occasional, it works for me.
>
> And how Red Tornado took care of Grundy worked for me. We know that Grundy's strength, durability, and intelligence varies greatly each time he dies and is resurrected. But we've seen Grundy get killed when he was exhibiting a high level of strength. Back in James Robinson's Starman series, Grundy died after a building he was holding up collapsed on him. So just because he may be in Superman's strength class at some point doesn't mean he's as durable. Plus, Grundy is more plant matter than anything (see Robinson's Starman, again), so yes...the tree analogy worked well here.
>
My problem with the title wasn't with Grundy but with the Red Tornado himself. I just don't buy the basic premise of how he's portraying the Red Tornado from being a heavy clunky robot on down. At this point in his career, unless there have been massive retcons we haven't been in on, RT should know he's far more than a robot and is truly alive, just in a robot shell. The whole disembodied spirit thing just didn't work because it's been repeatedly shown that outside of the shell, he's the tornado champion/tyrant. As such he can actually create realistic illusions, if he hates his robotic body so much. So, I had trouble with the whole transporting his "spirit" into a vacant body and killing him there. He's an actual wind being, who knows if he can truly die, at least a physical death?

And the lateness between issues, have to admit I was reading this issue and for the life of me couldn't really remember exactly what it was that Grundy and Ivo were hoping to accomplish but then again, that didn't seem really relevant for the comic other than to give them an excuse for a big final fight. Did feel a bit sorry for the schizophrenic Amazo though.

Also wonder what it was about all that wasted story space about the big 3 going through to handpick a team which obviously isn't how it was going to pan out and wasn't all that interesting of expositional reading. More curious about Geo-Force subplot.

Not horrible, but I'm not really impressed either. JUSTICE reads a lot more interesting and exciting and it's obvious both writers are drawing on the same era as inspiration.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Seyg-El




> > Again, I enjoyed it. If you didn't like it, drop the title. I'm sure you've got other things you can spend you're money on.
>
> Personally, I disagree with the "drop the title if you don't like it" argument. If you're trying something new, then sure, but this is something many of us have been reading all of our lives. Why should someone have to drop the title because of the writing? We love the characters. They've been written well in the past. I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting good, if not great, writing on one of DC's big titles. I have dropped the title in the past for bad writing and/or bad art, but why should I have to do that when it is normally a book I love to read?

I see your point, but why spend money on something you don't really like? If the writing isn't up to par, why not drop the title until the new team comes on?


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Spiffy




I was pretty let down by the issue. That whole conflict led to what was basically a mini-reset. With limbs being ripped off and crunched down on. It all seemed rather pointless in the end.

> I had a nauseating suspicion that since it took five issues of build up to get to any potential for a good fight, that Meltzer wouldn't know what to do when he got there. And sure enough, JLA#6 was a huge disappointment. Y'know you'd think that with villains like Amazo and Solomon Grundy that the fight would be something awesome(Die Hardesque), but apparently the modern crop of writers just don't know how to choreograph worth a sweet god damn. I wonder if it ever occured to Meltzer that having a split battle with two major heavyweights in a SINGLE issue would produce nothing more than a let down for both(and the constant switching back and forth was annoying). Compensating for the lack of decent combat writing by throwing in alot of gore doesn't cut it either. And the lack of logic: I don't care how devastating 350 mph winds are, they wouldn't cut Grundy in two. So what if winds like that can snap trees, Grundy has gone toe-to-toe with Superman, I think he's alot more sturdy than the average tree(next Meltzer will try having us swallow the same move with Darkseid). Given the nature of the violence in this issue, I'm thinking that writers(Meltzer obviously) are preoccupied with the type of crap that Frank Miller did with Sin City. It doesn't have any place in JLA. The 'creative' team better start coming up with some quality battle sequences, as it is, I'm a hair away from dumping this title.


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Ironing Man





> Ah, so you're one of those...

I can't take you seriously with a comment like this, it's ignorant and you've obviously already think your opinion is the right one with no room for something different. You don't know what you're talking about. Your awareness comes from a few fans of the book you may know or who may post on this board. Your ignorance is relating what you know about a few and labeling the whole damn group. And I called you ignorant when you were calling sin city fans mysoginists.

I want to say, "ah, so you're one of those who have an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" philosophy. Don't be so close-minded.


>...who have an 'anything goes' philosophy. Sorry, but in a democratic society, it's hardly ignorant to be condemning of a form of entertainment(and those who consume it), that can be seen as damaging to society in general(ignorance implies the critic doesn't know what he's talking about). Are people who engage in(or view for fun) extreme fighting, dwarf-tossing, drag-racing, jackass movies, etc, etc above criticism? If they like it so much, then they should be able to defend their choice from those who don't.

Who wants to get in a debate with someone who's already made up their mind and obviously have no intention of truly listening to what other's have to say. I have no problem with you criticizing a piece of work, but don't criticize the people who like it. Are you saying my Sister, who works for law enforcement as a forensic sicientist, is a mysogynist for enjoying Sin City? My father, who is a self-made millionaire and a respected member of the city government, wrong for enjoying Sin City or for getting a chuckle out of Jackass. You know what you're getting with Sin City, don't see the movie or even talk about it if you hate it so much.

>
> Which brings me to another point. Since you liked it so much, why didn't you say what was so redeeming about the film? Alot of people say they liked the movie but never say why. Was it the scene where Bruce Willis rips the pedophiles genitals off with his bare hands? Or where Jessica Alba gets a whipping, but looks as if she's enjoying it? Please elaborate.

I didn't want to get into a pointless debate with you. The fil was entertaining, I went in their to see a sexy, action movie and I got what I wanted. I wasn't expecting Shakespeare, its a movie called Sin City, I doubt the characters are going to sit around drinking tea, discussing politics.

>
> How does this tie in to JLA? Did we really need to see Tornado's arm get ripped off? Kids do read comics you know. It seems to me that Meltzer wants to be the new Miller. In an adult comic that's fine. You'll forgive my 'ignorance' if I remain critical of something that's also meant to be enjoyed by children.
> >

Now I completely see what a lot of people are saying about the violence in comics. It doesn't bother me, but I see what people are getting agitated about. The violence could have been shown in shadows or off to the side. But the point of the violence is to show that Red Tornado got more than he bargained for when his dream of being human came true. His human body is fragile compared to his robot one.

Also, I think Meltzer is the farthest thing from Millar. Brad has written 2 scenes I'd deem noteworthy for violence, the IC rape scene and the recent RT scene. I think it's a little early to label Meltzer as anything.



Lastly, the whole tone of your post is what set me off. You're coming off as rude and pushy. It's obvious this upset you, but don't bring people into your critique of a story.


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jwd




I didn't care for it either. The whole arc moved way to slow.

Ripping off Reddy's arm was for pure shock/gross out value.

The whole

"Sol"

"Solu"

"Solut"

....

got tiring.

Giant 2 page spread of a head ... I'm probably in the minority but I don't buy comics because I want a poster book. I want an actual story with panel and text and word balloons filling the book up.

This is my list issue and actually my last DC comics for the forseeable future.



ninja.monkeylord.org (12.345.67.89)
using Interwebs Stealth Engine 2.0 (0.13 points)
Zazu




> > > Again, I enjoyed it. If you didn't like it, drop the title. I'm sure you've got other things you can spend you're money on.
> >
> > Personally, I disagree with the "drop the title if you don't like it" argument. If you're trying something new, then sure, but this is something many of us have been reading all of our lives. Why should someone have to drop the title because of the writing? We love the characters. They've been written well in the past. I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting good, if not great, writing on one of DC's big titles. I have dropped the title in the past for bad writing and/or bad art, but why should I have to do that when it is normally a book I love to read?
>
> I see your point, but why spend money on something you don't really like? If the writing isn't up to par, why not drop the title until the new team comes on?

I've done that with some titles, including JLA when Joe Kelly was writing it. That doesn't mean I won't give an arc a try. Also, should we just give up buying it and be quiet about it? I think our voices should be heard in order to make some sort of change happen. The argument of "drop the title if you don't like it" only goes so far. I think TPTB should know why I'm dropping a title. At $3 a pop (or more in many cases), I feel I should get my money's worth and that includes good writing, good art and good editing. As I brought up in another post below, why is Meltzer letting the characters use their real names when he just wrote ID Crisis about the after effects of secret ID's being revealed?!?!? Hal, Roy and Clark's names were thrown around without a care in the world while they were in public. That was a stupid move on Meltzer's part and by the editor for not catching it.


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Jim Johnson




Buy the kids JLU. It's a fun read. Very few books are written for kids anymore.


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Seyg-El




> Buy the kids JLU. It's a fun read. Very few books are written for kids anymore.

Exactly. Most comics really aren't written for young children anymore. They're written for people who didn't put the books down after they got a little older.



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sonofzeus




But if you guys really believe that, then why aren't there warning labels(at least) on comics, or legislation barring stores from selling this clearly adult material to anyone under 14. Keep in mind that while the 3 of us are quite familiar with the current content of JLA, most parents are not.

It's fair to say that the industry wants to have it both ways. They want to make comics that are appealing to adults, given the subject matter, but they still want to sell the same product to children, and maximize their profits. It's sleazy to say the least.


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Seyg-El




I don't have the book nearby, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't a Comics Code Authority label on the cover.

And to be honest, for the past few years, everytime I'm in a comic store, the kids seem to flock to the Johnny DC titles while the adults tend to go for the main titles.

And I hate to sound naive, but what happened to parental responsibility? It is the parents' job to make sure that their childrens' entertainment is what they deem appropriate. No one elses.


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Scott




Both of you need to tone it down.

Scott


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sonofzeus




> I don't have the book nearby, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't a Comics Code Authority label on the cover.

>

> And to be honest, for the past few years, everytime I'm in a comic store, the kids seem to flock to the Johnny DC titles while the adults tend to go for the main titles.

>

> And I hate to sound naive, but what happened to parental responsibility? It is the parents' job to make sure that their childrens' entertainment is what they deem appropriate. No one elses.



Normally I would agree with you, but the fact is that superhero comics have been an acceptable form of children's entertainment for decades. The only parents that would even be aware that JLA is now aiming for adult content are those parents who are also comic readers(and how many could there possibly be). How many doctors, lawyers, executives, firefighters and cops do you think take time out of their day and say, Gee I better start reading comics just in case they aren't for kids anymore. No, DC has a moral responsibility to ensure that as many parents as possible are informed about THEIR COMPANY'S decision to go adult content, deviating from two generations of history. They haven't, and they won't, because the truth is that they want as many people as possible to buy whatever they're turning out, even if it's kids.


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sonofzeus




> Lastly, the whole tone of your post is what set me off. You're coming off as rude and pushy. It's obvious this upset you, but don't bring people into your critique of a story.

I'll admit to opinionated(cause that's the god's honest truth), but I don't believe it's rude to have strong opinions about entertainment, and the people who feed into it. A good message board should be about debate.

It would be more accurate to say that JLA 6 annoyed me(it never got as far as being upset). And this is why: instead of getting a well-choreographed fight scene, Meltzer gave us gore instead. He went for cheap shock value instead of quality combat, and he did it in a way that reminds me of Frank Miller(who I think is a closet sadist). By the by, if you do appreciate quality fight scenes, go to your local comic store and pick-up the back issue of Avengers Annual#10 - one of the best fight sequences ever.

As for Sin City, doesn't it strike you as curious that the film-makers went for explicit and gritty realism on almost every scene except one: the scene where Jessica Alba gets horse-whipped. In that scene she isn't bloodied, her clothes aren't torn to shreds, and she doesn't look the least bit distressed. Rather, she's sweaty, calm, and doesn't scream at all. They deliberately eroticized that scene. And that doesn't strike you as sexist?



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Scott




.


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Ironing Man




> Both of you need to tone it down.
>
> Scott

I said what I wanted to say. Every few months I get a bit uppity, but it's passed now.


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Seyg-El




> Normally I would agree with you, but the fact is that superhero comics have been an acceptable form of children's entertainment for decades. The only parents that would even be aware that JLA is now aiming for adult content are those parents who are also comic readers(and how many could there possibly be). How many doctors, lawyers, executives, firefighters and cops do you think take time out of their day and say, Gee I better start reading comics just in case they aren't for kids anymore. No, DC has a moral responsibility to ensure that as many parents as possible are informed about THEIR COMPANY'S decision to go adult content, deviating from two generations of history. They haven't, and they won't, because the truth is that they want as many people as possible to buy whatever they're turning out, even if it's kids.


And although there may be some responsibility on DC there, I'm sorry...but I don't want to hear any parents griping that their kids were exposed to something they didn't want them exposed to. You will never EVER convince me that anyone but parents should hold the final responsibility. While it may make their lives easier to have others bear that responsibility, its not always going to happen, and they don't have much right to get upset if they don't take the time to make sure their children are being protected from whatever. It's part of accepting the responsibility of a parent.


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CyberCoyote




> I really hope Meltzer sticks to what he's doing. I've loved every bit of it. He also said in an interview that he's setting the team for the next writer, so take a break and come back around issue 12 when a new writer is on board.

as the others noted, I'm not about to share this with my kid.


"I don't think there's such a thing as a hero.
It's a lovely idea and this isn't meant to be cynical,
but I think people are just people who are capable of
very good of very bad things.... "

Mark Millar: Writer of Super Hero comic books

CyberCoyote-=^..^=-


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Smithville Thunderbolt




> I don't have the book nearby, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't a Comics Code Authority label on the cover.

There was.


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Zazu




> > I don't have the book nearby, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't a Comics Code Authority label on the cover.
>
> There was.

Well, as long as they approve, then that's all I need in life! *gah*


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