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Tailgunner Joe




The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists) was so blatant as to make the quality of writing meaningless. The acting was great, the animation was great, the writing was great, but all thrown out the window with its "I hate anyone who worked for anti-communism/American first movement" message.

Too bad, I was really looking forward to enjoying it.


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yelmurc99




> The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists)


i'm not sure if you're just trolling or what... but just so i understand... it's your case that McCarthy fought IN FAVOR OF American freedom?


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tailgunner Joe




> > The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists)
>
>
> i'm not sure if you're just trolling or what... but just so i understand... it's your case that McCarthy fought IN FAVOR OF American freedom?

Not a troll. Big fan of JLA. The Venona papers proved that this JLA movies propaganda is based on fear and/or on hatred of US Constitutional government, not facts.


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Ironing Man




In the books I've read, and the US history classes I've taken (college and high school), McCarthy Era is well known as the Red Scare. Anyone with supposed 'communist' leanings was assumed to be a traitor-you couldn't even criticize McCarthy's program without being branded a sympathizer or traitor. As far as I'm concerned, it was an out of control witch hunt.
Besides that fact, McCarthy's anti-communism has played a major part in DCU history for a long time. It's now canon that in the comics, McCarthy ordered the JSA to reveal their identities for fear of them secretly being communists, thus the reason the JSA quit for a number of years.

The movie is based on a comic. One of the best made in recent history.


> The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists) was so blatant as to make the quality of writing meaningless. The acting was great, the animation was great, the writing was great, but all thrown out the window with its "I hate anyone who worked for anti-communism/American first movement" message.
>
> Too bad, I was really looking forward to enjoying it.


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darth-sinister




> > > The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists)
> >
> >
> > i'm not sure if you're just trolling or what... but just so i understand... it's your case that McCarthy fought IN FAVOR OF American freedom?
>
> Not a troll. Big fan of JLA. The Venona papers proved that this JLA movies propaganda is based on fear and/or on hatred of US Constitutional government, not facts.
>

What papers? Look, in the 50's, McCarthy was a little nuts and caused problems where there really wasn't. All "New Frontier" did was look at it the same way everyone else has in the years since then.


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TJ Burns





> Besides that fact, McCarthy's anti-communism has played a major part in DCU history for a long time. It's now canon that in the comics, McCarthy ordered the JSA to reveal their identities for fear of them secretly being communists, thus the reason the JSA quit for a number of years.

No, HUAC did... which McCarthy, being a Senator instead of a member of the House, had nothing to do with. Sorry, that's just a frequent pet peeve of mine. \:\)


TJB


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TJ Burns




> > > > The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists)
> > >
> > >
> > > i'm not sure if you're just trolling or what... but just so i understand... it's your case that McCarthy fought IN FAVOR OF American freedom?
> >
> > Not a troll. Big fan of JLA. The Venona papers proved that this JLA movies propaganda is based on fear and/or on hatred of US Constitutional government, not facts.
> >
>
> What papers? Look, in the 50's, McCarthy was a little nuts and caused problems where there really wasn't.

He's referring to the release of the Venona intercepts in the early 90s after the fall of the Soviet Union, which proved that a surprisingly large number of people in multiple high-level government positions were, in fact, communists, and in the pay of the Soviet Union.


TJB


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Tailgunner Joe




>
> > Besides that fact, McCarthy's anti-communism has played a major part in DCU history for a long time. It's now canon that in the comics, McCarthy ordered the JSA to reveal their identities for fear of them secretly being communists, thus the reason the JSA quit for a number of years.
>
> No, HUAC did... which McCarthy, being a Senator instead of a member of the House, had nothing to do with. Sorry, that's just a frequent pet peeve of mine. \:\)
>
>
> TJB


No such thing as HUAC, just a pet peeve of mine ;-p It is House Committee on UnAmerican Activities. Pro Communists have changed it to be commonly referred to as the House UnAmerican Activities Committee to give it a bad name. Your overall point is clearly valid though. I'm just a stickler for that stuff. \:\-\)


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TJ Burns





> No such thing as HUAC, just a pet peeve of mine ;-p It is House Committee on UnAmerican Activities. Pro Communists have changed it to be commonly referred to as the House UnAmerican Activities Committee to give it a bad name. Your overall point is clearly valid though. I'm just a stickler for that stuff. \:\-\)

Duly noted, and something I should have caught myself. Yeah, that history degree's really paying off for me... \:\)


TJB


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Marvin and Wendy




Never mind the fact there actually were communist infiltrators in the country at the time...


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Omar Karindu




This is why I don't worry if comic books uncritically support my political views or not; it'd keep me from enjoying technically and artistically accomplished material far too often.

A far-out liberal should still be able to enjoy the virtues of a Chuck Dixon guns-n-glory romp because Dixon knows whow to write those with economy and wit; an ultra-conservative should be able to enjoy Alan Moore's Swamp Thing because Moore is just that blasted talented a scripter and plotter.

I can't understand people who take in everything as if it were propaganda, and then make aesthetic and moral judgments based on whether it's propaganda for their side or against it. It seems like it'd make reading comics into an angry, unpleasant experience.

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


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AKUS99




Actually the vast majority of the people mentioned in Venona were not government officials and certainly not at a high-level. The only high level names are Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White. Neither was a huge surprise, especially since Hiss went to prison because he denied being a Communist agent under oath. White had long been suspected of being a Communist agent before the Venona decrypts became public. Hiss actually doesn't appear in the decrypts by name. He is presumed to be the agent referred to as Ales. Also the espionage that Venona documents largely took place in the 1930s and early 1940s. The Venona papers contain no evidence to support any of McCarthy's claims of continued employment of communists during the 1950s. In fact, McCarthy did not expose one communist. The House Committee on Un-American Activities went after private citizens in key areas, such as education and entertainment. Most of the people were not accused of espionage but found guilty of hiding communist messages in their work.

> > > > > The over arching story against those that worked here in America for freedom (McCarthy and other anti-communists)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure if you're just trolling or what... but just so i understand... it's your case that McCarthy fought IN FAVOR OF American freedom?
> > >
> > > Not a troll. Big fan of JLA. The Venona papers proved that this JLA movies propaganda is based on fear and/or on hatred of US Constitutional government, not facts.
> > >
> >
> > What papers? Look, in the 50's, McCarthy was a little nuts and caused problems where there really wasn't.
>
> He's referring to the release of the Venona intercepts in the early 90s after the fall of the Soviet Union, which proved that a surprisingly large number of people in multiple high-level government positions were, in fact, communists, and in the pay of the Soviet Union.
>
>
> TJB


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Tailgunner




> This is why I don't worry if comic books uncritically support my political views or not; ...
>
> I can't understand people who take in everything as if it were propaganda, and then make aesthetic and moral judgments based on whether it's propaganda for their side or against it. It seems like it'd make reading comics into an angry, unpleasant experience.
>
> - Omar Karindu
>


It isn't about supporting one view, it is the blatant hatred for Americanism, and support of globalism.

No one sees EVERYTHING as if it were propaganda, however promoting an agenda, especially one not held by a majority of people, could easily be seen as being done for a specific purpose of making popular an idea that is not already popular.


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Tailgunner Joe




> Actually the vast majority of the people mentioned in Venona were not government officials and certainly not at a high-level. The only high level names are Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White. Neither was a huge surprise, especially since Hiss went to prison because he denied being a Communist agent under oath. White had long been suspected of being a Communist agent before the Venona decrypts became public. Hiss actually doesn't appear in the decrypts by name. He is presumed to be the agent referred to as Ales. Also the espionage that Venona documents largely took place in the 1930s and early 1940s. The Venona papers contain no evidence to support any of McCarthy's claims of continued employment of communists during the 1950s. In fact, McCarthy did not expose one communist. The House Committee on Un-American Activities went after private citizens in key areas, such as education and entertainment. Most of the people were not accused of espionage but found guilty of hiding communist messages in their work.
>


Don't know what you've been reading, but every independent review of Venona I have come across reveals McCarthy was basically vindicated. I have read the papers on the FBI site as well as the CIA site as well as a few books on the subject as well as the news paper articles that covered it at the time. The newspapers were the only medium that supported your point of view. Scholars that wrote beyond sound bites basically called it a vindication, although they personally did not like McCarthys tactics, they were forced to admit he was right.

I think this is getting off topic slightly, the point of the original post was to point out that the movie that was great (minus its anti climactic ending) was stripped of its status by promoting an agenda not based on the facts.


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little kon-el




> > Actually the vast majority of the people mentioned in Venona were not government officials and certainly not at a high-level. The only high level names are Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White. Neither was a huge surprise, especially since Hiss went to prison because he denied being a Communist agent under oath. White had long been suspected of being a Communist agent before the Venona decrypts became public. Hiss actually doesn't appear in the decrypts by name. He is presumed to be the agent referred to as Ales. Also the espionage that Venona documents largely took place in the 1930s and early 1940s. The Venona papers contain no evidence to support any of McCarthy's claims of continued employment of communists during the 1950s. In fact, McCarthy did not expose one communist. The House Committee on Un-American Activities went after private citizens in key areas, such as education and entertainment. Most of the people were not accused of espionage but found guilty of hiding communist messages in their work.
> >
>
>
> Don't know what you've been reading, but every independent review of Venona I have come across reveals McCarthy was basically vindicated. I have read the papers on the FBI site as well as the CIA site as well as a few books on the subject as well as the news paper articles that covered it at the time. The newspapers were the only medium that supported your point of view. Scholars that wrote beyond sound bites basically called it a vindication, although they personally did not like McCarthys tactics, they were forced to admit he was right.
>

It really just depends on whether or not the scholars believe in the way that the code was broken or in what the Soviets can verify on their part as to the identities of the people on the Verona Papers. Part of the problem is that we aren't sure how much of the Verona Papers are actual agents or dis-information provided by a Soviet regime that knew it was being watched by the west.

> I think this is getting off topic slightly, the point of the original post was to point out that the movie that was great (minus its anti climactic ending) was stripped of its status by promoting an agenda not based on the facts.
>

The agenda itself can be seen as based in facts because whether or not McCarthy was right, he was wrong in the way he went about creating a climate of paranoia in order to get power. People would say that he was justified in his action, but I still think that his actions did very little to stop agents of the USSR. It wasn't as if he had access to the Verona Papers. His paper of 207 names were names that the Secretary General didn't want to hire because they didn't fit background checks, which could mean that they had criminal backgrounds or were suspicious enough not to hire for the State Department. There was no proof to his findings. All the Verona Papers prove is that there were spies in the United States, not that McCarthy was ever correct or had evidence of corruption by agents of foreign powers.

But getting back to the New Frontier story, the story as told by the Edward R. Murrow was one of a country that still had huge racial divides that stopped it from becoming united. It didn't mention anything about McCarthy, although it probably alluded to HUAC and/or the disbanding of the JSA due to HUAC, but I don't think it ever did mention McCarthy (like it never mentioned Edward R. Murrow). There was a huge schism of distrust that took a Superman to mend through acting like a superhero "dad" to everyone.

It's agenda was about mending fences and creating a unified America. That's why we end on JFK's New Frontier speech. The beginning of the JLA is the end of the paranoia that came before it in the 50s where there was no trust between others.

I think a reunified America, free of strife and focused on the protection of its citizens, is something we can all get behind.

-l.k.


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Gernot




When I get home, I'm lockin' this off-topic thread, and deleting any posts made after mine.

Thanks.


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Smithville Thunderbolt




>Moore is just that blasted talented a scripter and plotter.

You know, I used to use "blasted" as an adjective, obviously influenced by comic books (too bad most writers now go with something akin "#$@!" instead).

> I can't understand people who take in everything as if it were propaganda, and then make aesthetic and moral judgments based on whether it's propaganda for their side or against it. It seems like it'd make reading comics into an angry, unpleasant experience.

"Propaganda" is a loaded term, but I find a lot of pleasure in noting political subtext in narratives. But I don't tend to get too worked up if it's a political leaning I disagree with.


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