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Rip Jagger




This has likely been mentioned here, but just in case let me make note of it. Apparently the JSA origin will be recapped in the 49th installment of 52. I don't get most issues of 52, but I'll likely gather up this one. \:\-\)

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Scott




The real origin of the JSA is in these gems.
And a horrible version was done in SECRET ORIGINS #31.

Scott


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Jon Walker




> The real origin of the JSA is in these gems.
> And a horrible version was done in SECRET ORIGINS #31.
>
> Scott


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Dr. Bob




Well, in my mind we had Roy Thomas at his worst, rewriting (I mean, adapting) a story that was only a few years old and adding all of his 1980s overly verbose and faux-historical flourishes that ultimately killed All-Star Squadron for me. Yes, we had to get rid of Superman and Batman, but the new version left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to the wonderful Levitz original, cheesy as it may have been.


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Rip Jagger




> Well, in my mind we had Roy Thomas at his worst, rewriting (I mean, adapting) a story that was only a few years old and adding all of his 1980s overly verbose and faux-historical flourishes that ultimately killed All-Star Squadron for me. Yes, we had to get rid of Superman and Batman, but the new version left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to the wonderful Levitz original, cheesy as it may have been.

The Levitz-Staton-Layton version is exquisite for sure. I'd have to agree alas that much of Roy's later stuff for the JSofA and A-SS was a tad too pedantic to maintain its momentum. Having to go back and excise such key heroes from these classic tales was unfortunate and the whole endeavor has a feeling of straightening furniture rather than designing a new room. :-/

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Mikel Midnight




> > Well, in my mind we had Roy Thomas at his worst, rewriting (I mean, adapting) a story that was only a few years old and adding all of his 1980s overly verbose and faux-historical flourishes that ultimately killed All-Star Squadron for me. Yes, we had to get rid of Superman and Batman, but the new version left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to the wonderful Levitz original, cheesy as it may have been.
>
> The Levitz-Staton-Layton version is exquisite for sure. I'd have to agree alas that much of Roy's later stuff for the JSofA and A-SS was a tad too pedantic to maintain its momentum. Having to go back and excise such key heroes from these classic tales was unfortunate and the whole endeavor has a feeling of straightening furniture rather than designing a new room. :-/

As much as I am not a fan of A*S, I don't believe this was a task Roy particularly relished. However, it's as reasonable a job of making the story work sans Superman as anyone would do.

It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).


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Rip Jagger




>
> As much as I am not a fan of A*S, I don't believe this was a task Roy particularly relished. However, it's as reasonable a job of making the story work sans Superman as anyone would do.
>

I'd agree. I don't see how he could've liked it much, maybe more of chore, a necessary evil to get the story at least quasi-coherent. After all his work on A-SS, it had to be a royal pain to have to unravel much of it.


> It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).

I can't imagine it's still canon. The DCU is such a plastic concept, that I don't much even try to keep track of that stuff. It's beyond convoluted. \:\-\)

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Dr. Bob




> >
> > As much as I am not a fan of A*S, I don't believe this was a task Roy particularly relished. However, it's as reasonable a job of making the story work sans Superman as anyone would do.
> >
>
> I'd agree. I don't see how he could've liked it much, maybe more of chore, a necessary evil to get the story at least quasi-coherent. After all his work on A-SS, it had to be a royal pain to have to unravel much of it.
>
>
> > It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).
>
> I can't imagine it's still canon. The DCU is such a plastic concept, that I don't much even try to keep track of that stuff. It's beyond convoluted. \:\-\)
>
True enough, but since we have hypertime or multiple universes or whatever back again I prefer to cite the original as the real deal!


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Mikel Midnight




> > > It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).
> >
> > I can't imagine it's still canon. The DCU is such a plastic concept, that I don't much even try to keep track of that stuff. It's beyond convoluted. \:\-\)
> >
> True enough, but since we have hypertime or multiple universes or whatever back again I prefer to cite the original as the real deal!

I would be willing to put aside Roy's rewrite for something new and original, but I lack confidence is the current crop of writers to produce anything that will impress me.


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little kon-el




> > > > It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).
> > >
> > > I can't imagine it's still canon. The DCU is such a plastic concept, that I don't much even try to keep track of that stuff. It's beyond convoluted. \:\-\)
> > >
> > True enough, but since we have hypertime or multiple universes or whatever back again I prefer to cite the original as the real deal!
>
> I would be willing to put aside Roy's rewrite for something new and original, but I lack confidence is the current crop of writers to produce anything that will impress me.

I wowuld like to see what Morrison would do, because he gave us a really neat version of "Flash of Two Worlds" that worked with the one-world concept without really destroying the original work laid down by the original creators.

But if we're looking at a new origin of the JSA, what would everyone suggest? I have some thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think...

- little kon-el


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Mikel Midnight




> I wowuld like to see what Morrison would do, because he gave us a really neat version of "Flash of Two Worlds" that worked with the one-world concept without really destroying the original work laid down by the original creators.

While I often have problems with Morrison's work, he is my single favorite Silver Age pastiche writer ever. I've never seen him do anything on the Golden Age, though it would be interesting.

> But if we're looking at a new origin of the JSA, what would everyone suggest? I have some thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think...

I would go back to the Levitz original as much as possible. But rather than having the Atom revived from death by the Spectre (a tedious trick, as well as a gimmick that had already been done in the Silver Age), Superman's and Batman's involvement would be carefully rewritten to include the other characters who had prominent positions in ALL-STAR COMICS but who wouldn't be likely members of the JSA: Biff Bronson, Red White & Blue, and Hop Harrigan. Possibly also Ultra-Man if I couldn't think of any other way to duplicate Superman's last-minute bomb-stopping save.


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Gernot




> > I wowuld like to see what Morrison would do, because he gave us a really neat version of "Flash of Two Worlds" that worked with the one-world concept without really destroying the original work laid down by the original creators.
>
> While I often have problems with Morrison's work, he is my single favorite Silver Age pastiche writer ever. I've never seen him do anything on the Golden Age, though it would be interesting.
>
> > But if we're looking at a new origin of the JSA, what would everyone suggest? I have some thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think...
>
> I would go back to the Levitz original as much as possible. But rather than having the Atom revived from death by the Spectre (a tedious trick, as well as a gimmick that had already been done in the Silver Age), Superman's and Batman's involvement would be carefully rewritten to include the other characters who had prominent positions in ALL-STAR COMICS but who wouldn't be likely members of the JSA: Biff Bronson, Red White & Blue, and Hop Harrigan. Possibly also Ultra-Man if I couldn't think of any other way to duplicate Superman's last-minute bomb-stopping save.

What about the heroes who REPLACED Superman and Batman? Would you like to see Iron Munro and Flying Fox somehow put into the story?

Gernot...

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Ed Love




> I wowuld like to see what Morrison would do, because he gave us a really neat version of "Flash of Two Worlds" that worked with the one-world concept without really destroying the original work laid down by the original creators.
>
It was a good story, but like Thomas' re-write of the JSA origin, he was basically re-writing a pre-existing story to make it fit into a post-Crisis world.

> But if we're looking at a new origin of the JSA, what would everyone suggest? I have some thoughts, but I'd be curious what other people think...
>
Think I'd chuck the Levitz origin completely, go with something that is a little more fitting in with the early JSA tales, ie common thugs, a single mastermind, etc: individual crimes that involve the JSA as individuals and as they follow the clues, they begin to meet up and realize they are all working on the same but wide-spread case, a nation-wide criminal organization. Could have robots, cthulu-esque monsters/sorcerers for the Dr. Fate and Spectre chapters, but over all, keep it a bit more grounded.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Mikel Midnight




> What about the heroes who REPLACED Superman and Batman? Would you like to see Iron Munro and Flying Fox somehow put into the story?

No. They're too young and essentially trivial to my mind, to have played such a significant role in the founding of the JSA. I mean, if they had been there, could you really see them being foisted off in the Young All-Stars later on?


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Pre-Crisis Chris




> > > Well, in my mind we had Roy Thomas at his worst, rewriting (I mean, adapting) a story that was only a few years old and adding all of his 1980s overly verbose and faux-historical flourishes that ultimately killed All-Star Squadron for me. Yes, we had to get rid of Superman and Batman, but the new version left a bad taste in my mouth when compared to the wonderful Levitz original, cheesy as it may have been.
> >
> > The Levitz-Staton-Layton version is exquisite for sure. I'd have to agree alas that much of Roy's later stuff for the JSofA and A-SS was a tad too pedantic to maintain its momentum. Having to go back and excise such key heroes from these classic tales was unfortunate and the whole endeavor has a feeling of straightening furniture rather than designing a new room. :-/
>
> As much as I am not a fan of A*S, I don't believe this was a task Roy particularly relished. However, it's as reasonable a job of making the story work sans Superman as anyone would do.
>
> It's water under the bridge anyway, as of course DC won't even stick to the SO#31 but will give us yet a third origin for the team (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but it would be standard operating procedure for them).

I'm sorry but I must totally disagree with much of what you're saying. Roy Thomas' work was some of the best ever in comics. Its just that the topic is somewhat esoteric, and perhaps old fashioned to a certain segment of the comic buying public....All Star Squadron's concept, and Thomas' efforts (to tell stories of the golden age heroes in their prime during world war 2, and to clean up DC continuity) was not a "Marvel-Zombie" type of book. It appealed to a different, perhaps smaller base of fans (although I had enough of my own friends and aquaintances who loved the book and Thomas' work.)

The very beauty of his work, was the mixing of real life history, literary/popular culture history, and (then) 40 years worth of comic book history into an amazing series of stories. He handled Retconning how it should be handled.....he didn't try to destroy everything you knew, he tried to fill in gaps, clear up things that were never explained, and added to, rather than eliminated. When he did alter story elements, it was all in the spirit of the original, and it made sense to do so. Another element I loved was his use of footnotes, and flashbacks....it was very much like you were reading a piece of history....his notes on the letters page, with the reference points to older comic stories, and the obvious care and love he put into his work made the series a pleasure to read. This was a truly unique series.

Unfortunately, he had no choice but to elminate the golden age Batman, Superman from the JSA origin....as anyone else would have had to do. DC eliminated them from the single universe continuity. There was no choice in the matter. I think he did the best he could, under the circumstances.

Why is there so much of a distaste for Thomas' DC work these days?? I'm shocked, as I feel he did more to clean up DC's parallel earths continuity issues, than almost anyone else did. DC's problem was never parallel earths, or alternate futures....it was that they didn't have the proper editorial staff in place, watching over their comics line. They used to keep everything they created, and no one ever tried to manage it in any way. This led to all kinds of continuity problems. That was the main problem for the company as they moved towards COIE. DC needed just a few more people like Thomas, as their editors, and they would never have ever needed COIE. The multiverse was the best!And so was Thomas' DC work (All Star Squadron was an awesome series!)

Again, as to why the JSA origin was so bad in Secret Origins....it would mainly be that DC had changed from a multiverse to a single universe, so you had to alter/fix the original origin story to account for Superman and Batman no longer being a part of it. But that was an error on DC's part for going through with the destruction/removal of the multiverse, and not a problem on Roy Thomas's skill as a writer.


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