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Author
Da' Spyda"




As much as I love Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific, I am having a little problem with the two of them dismissing vampires so easily, and immediately look for scientific explanations. They've encountered ghosts, the Spectre, Mordru, Dr. Fate, etc. etc., and yet, they can't believe the murderer is really a vampire.

It would have been a far more interesting twist if they had believe it was a real, honest to gosh vampire only to learn afterwards, everything could be explained away with real science.

just my thoughts, still hoping for a Dr. Mid-nite and/or Mr. Terrific ongoing.

Da' Spyda'


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Rip Jagger




I follow your criticism. I tried to read it as if they were set on absoluting eliminating any and all rational explanations before going for the supernatural one. But it is difficult to swallow that these two guys, who are surrounded by magic, seem to be so skeptical. :-/

Rip Off


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Zazu




> I follow your criticism. I tried to read it as if they were set on absoluting eliminating any and all rational explanations before going for the supernatural one. But it is difficult to swallow that these two guys, who are surrounded by magic, seem to be so skeptical. :-/
>
> Rip Off

Who says that they believe that the Spectre is really a servant of God or that Dr. Fate really uses magic? They probably think that Spectre, Dr. Fate, Mordru, etc are powerful superhumans or aliens rather than believing that they are magical beings. Look at the Flash villain, Abracadabra. While it looks like he is a magician, he is really using advanced science to make it look like magic. Th Greek Gods could just be a group of deluded superhumans or aliens that ruled the ancient world as "gods" and now they believe the story 100%. I believe in Marvel's Ultimate universe, many characters don't believe that Thor is actually a god and they think he is a deluded guy with super powers. They don't dispute that he's a god to his face though. Just because Wonder Woman said she was born from clay doesn't mean that the story is true. It's just the story we've been told. Origins have been changed before for various reasons before. We could easily be told that she's an alien or something else down the line. (Is that going to happen? No, but it could.) Are Superman or Weather Wizard gods? No, but they could claim to be one if they wanted to.


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Da' Spyda'




You might have a point, Zazu, if that was established in previous stories that Mid-nite and Terrific don't believe in magic/paranormal/supernatural aspects of their fellow JSAers or the villains/situations they've encountered. But, you really haven't. Dr. Mid-nite apparently is a church-goer, Terrific is an atheist. But you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, "Yeaah. Suuure, you are."

Da' Spyda'


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Zazu




> You might have a point, Zazu, if that was established in previous stories that Mid-nite and Terrific don't believe in magic/paranormal/supernatural aspects of their fellow JSAers or the villains/situations they've encountered. But, you really haven't. Dr. Mid-nite apparently is a church-goer, Terrific is an atheist. But you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, "Yeaah. Suuure, you are."
>
> Da' Spyda'

Your original statement was:
As much as I love Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific, I am having a little problem with the two of them dismissing vampires so easily, and immediately look for scientific explanations. They've encountered ghosts, the Spectre, Mordru, Dr. Fate, etc. etc., and yet, they can't believe the murderer is really a vampire.

Whether one believes in God or is an atheist, that doesn't mean that either one of them needs to believe that vampires really exist. And just because they respect their friends/fellow heroes enough to not argue with them about the true nature of their abilities, doesn't mean that they wholeheartedly believe them. I don't have the same belief system as many of my friends, but I don't go around arguing theology with them either. Again, just because they've encountered "ghosts" and powerful allies/enemies doesn't mean that they believe they are the real thing. Why should they have to say "You're not an Amazon! They're just a myth," to Wonder Woman? Let her believe or claim whatever she wants. She's one of the good guys. What harm is there in letting her say she's an Amazon, whether she is or not? I don't go around telling my friends that there is no God and they are wasting their time. My friends don't try to convert me to their religion.


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Da' Spyda'




Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their enviroment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.

For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.

An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.

IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.

My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences. I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.

Da' Spyda'




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Zazu




> Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their environment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.

No, but my experiences can help explain (at least one way) how people with different beliefs co-exist peacefully. Would you rather have theological discussions every other issue? Who knows? Maybe they do discuss these things off panel. We certainly don't see everything that goes on in their lives.
>
> For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.

I think this story helps to establish what you are talking about. It's a piece of the puzzle, at the very least.
>
> An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.

No, I can't say that I recall Terrific going up to Dr. Fate and confronting him about whether he's really using magic, alien powers or advanced super-science. So what? I think that would distract from the stories we've been reading. Do you honestly want them to be in a battle with Extant or Black Adam and have Terrific ask Dr. Fate "No, really. How do you really do that?"

Oh, and Midnite and Terrific did express disbelief (saying he was an illusionist) when the Gentleman Ghost fought them at the end of the last series, and they tried to use science to explain his existence. Does that help you?
>
> IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.
>
> My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences.

So, people with different belief systems can't agree that vampires don't exist? Do Catholics believe in vampires while Atheists don't? They are both still scientists. I'm sure they share many common ideas. This just happened to be one of them.

> I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.
>
By saying things like "you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, 'Yeaah. Suuure, you are.'" implies vocalizing a disbelief of the others' origins. Just by expressing that disbelief in an other's belief system starts a dialogue so one can try to break down the other's belief. If I said to a friend, "You know that God really doesn't exist, right?" then I'm trying to change their belief system. But I have too much respect to do that to my friends.


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Da' Spyda'




> > Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their environment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.
>
> No, but my experiences can help explain (at least one way) how people with different beliefs co-exist peacefully. Would you rather have theological discussions every other issue? Who knows? Maybe they do discuss these things off panel. We certainly don't see everything that goes on in their lives.

But your experiences shouldn't have to explain story situations or characterization. That is the job of the writer. If a reader has to fill-in the blanks with his experiences and beliefs, then the writer has failed to do his job. I have never said that every other issue has to be a theological discussion. Maybe those conversations do happen off panel, but that does help the reader, does it?

> >
> > For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.
>
> I think this story helps to establish what you are talking about. It's a piece of the puzzle, at the very least.

I would concede that this would be a possibility if it was better written.
> >
> > An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.
>
> No, I can't say that I recall Terrific going up to Dr. Fate and confronting him about whether he's really using magic, alien powers or advanced super-science. So what? I think that would distract from the stories we've been reading. Do you honestly want them to be in a battle with Extant or Black Adam and have Terrific ask Dr. Fate "No, really. How do you really do that?"

Apparently you don't know when I am using absurd humor in making a point. This whole Mid-nite story hinges on supernatural vs. natural, and what our hero believes in AND what he has experienced as a member of the JSA.

> Oh, and Midnite and Terrific did express disbelief (saying he was an illusionist) when the Gentleman Ghost fought them at the end of the last series, and they tried to use science to explain his existence. Does that help you?

yeah, it does. So, it's okay for them to make that point in that story so you can bring it up for your defense. But, I can demand that could have done similar for this story? Hey, they even proved your point without making it a theological discussion every issue. Will wonders never cease? I can't remember, in that story did bring up whether they thought the Spectre was an illusionist too?
> >
> > IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.
> >
> > My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences.
>
> So, people with different belief systems can't agree that vampires don't exist? Do Catholics believe in vampires while Atheists don't? They are both still scientists. I'm sure they share many common ideas. This just happened to be one of them.

This is a Dr. Mid-nite story. Emphasis on "story".This wasn't a team-up story where Mr. Terrific joins him in the battle. He's there as a cameo and contrast situation. To offer as a sounding board for Dr. Mid-nite, but also a counter-point for the reader. It should be used as a technique to make the main character shine. By having both characters say "Oh, it's all a rational explanation even though we are surrounded by unexplainable people and situations" weakens the story, especially when the explanation is correct in this situation.
Let me see if I can make this clear. Imagine it is an old-time murder mystery. The police inspector talks with the ameuter armchair detective over the dead body. And the inspectory says "I think the butler did it." The armchair detective says, "I tend to believe you are right." Then you end the books with butler admitting he had done that dastardly deed. It's a dull story.
>
> > I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.
> >
> By saying things like "you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, 'Yeaah. Suuure, you are.'" implies vocalizing a disbelief of the others' origins. Just by expressing that disbelief in an other's belief system starts a dialogue so one can try to break down the other's belief. If I said to a friend, "You know that God really doesn't exist, right?" then I'm trying to change their belief system. But I have too much respect to do that to my friends.

Once again, you seem to be taking me literally expecting Mid-nite or Terrific to acutally confront them. Again, absurd humor to make a point. Just as you can have a scene where Terrific and Mid-nite debate whether the Gentlemen Ghost is an illusionist or not. You can a similar scene with just the two of them discussing their thoughts and opinions on their teammates. It doesn't have to be a deep, issue-long theological discussion. A panel here, a line there can convey a lot. The problem with this story is they don't set a solid foundation for what are parameters on Mid-nite's beliefs and why.
I am beginning to believe you have a problem with religion. So,it pushes your buttons when you see something mentioned about atheism, and you feel as if you have to join the fray. You apparently have no problem with inferring things whether reading a comic book or by what I mean in a post.
If you want to infer, go ahead. You want to like this story? Go ahead. You want this to be the best damn Dr. Mid-nite story, go ahead. But if your happiness depends on my having to agree with you. You are not going to be happy.



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Zazu




> > > Ah, but we are not discussing your belief systems and the difference amongst your friends. We are discussing comic book characters and their characterization and their relationships with their environment (the DC Multiverse) and those characters around them.
> >
> > No, but my experiences can help explain (at least one way) how people with different beliefs co-exist peacefully. Would you rather have theological discussions every other issue? Who knows? Maybe they do discuss these things off panel. We certainly don't see everything that goes on in their lives.
>
> But your experiences shouldn't have to explain story situations or characterization. That is the job of the writer. If a reader has to fill-in the blanks with his experiences and beliefs, then the writer has failed to do his job. I have never said that every other issue has to be a theological discussion. Maybe those conversations do happen off panel, but that does help the reader, does it?
>
> > >
> > > For the story to work, the creative teams (not just those of JSA Classified, but other JSA appearances as well)have to establish what do Dr. Mid-nite and Mr. Terrific really think of the supernatural things around them.
> >
> > I think this story helps to establish what you are talking about. It's a piece of the puzzle, at the very least.
>
> I would concede that this would be a possibility if it was better written.
> > >
> > > An apparent contradiction in attitude by these characters should not be resolved by the readers' inferring beliefs that were not clearly established by previous appearances. From my meager memory, I do not recall Mid-nite and Terrific conversing about there doubts of the Spectre's, Wonder Woman's, et. etc. origins, backgrounds, etc. OR, while encountering Mordru or the Gentlemen Ghost or Dr. Fate have them debate that obviously it wasn't magic, but yadda yadda yadda.
> >
> > No, I can't say that I recall Terrific going up to Dr. Fate and confronting him about whether he's really using magic, alien powers or advanced super-science. So what? I think that would distract from the stories we've been reading. Do you honestly want them to be in a battle with Extant or Black Adam and have Terrific ask Dr. Fate "No, really. How do you really do that?"
>
> Apparently you don't know when I am using absurd humor in making a point. This whole Mid-nite story hinges on supernatural vs. natural, and what our hero believes in AND what he has experienced as a member of the JSA.
>
> > Oh, and Midnite and Terrific did express disbelief (saying he was an illusionist) when the Gentleman Ghost fought them at the end of the last series, and they tried to use science to explain his existence. Does that help you?
>
> yeah, it does. So, it's okay for them to make that point in that story so you can bring it up for your defense. But, I can demand that could have done similar for this story? Hey, they even proved your point without making it a theological discussion every issue. Will wonders never cease? I can't remember, in that story did bring up whether they thought the Spectre was an illusionist too?
> > >
> > > IF that had been done, then I would concede that the JSA Classified story would have held up better.
> > >
> > > My mentioning of Mid-nite's and Terrific's different belief systems was only to point out that they came to the same conclusions in spite of their apparent differences.
> >
> > So, people with different belief systems can't agree that vampires don't exist? Do Catholics believe in vampires while Atheists don't? They are both still scientists. I'm sure they share many common ideas. This just happened to be one of them.
>
> This is a Dr. Mid-nite story. Emphasis on "story".This wasn't a team-up story where Mr. Terrific joins him in the battle. He's there as a cameo and contrast situation. To offer as a sounding board for Dr. Mid-nite, but also a counter-point for the reader. It should be used as a technique to make the main character shine. By having both characters say "Oh, it's all a rational explanation even though we are surrounded by unexplainable people and situations" weakens the story, especially when the explanation is correct in this situation.
> Let me see if I can make this clear. Imagine it is an old-time murder mystery. The police inspector talks with the ameuter armchair detective over the dead body. And the inspectory says "I think the butler did it." The armchair detective says, "I tend to believe you are right." Then you end the books with butler admitting he had done that dastardly deed. It's a dull story.
> >
> > > I DID NOT say anything about trying to convert one's belief into another's. Where you got that idea I'll never know.
> > >
> > By saying things like "you never seen them talking to Wonder Woman, Dr. Fate, or whoever about their abilities and origins and say, 'Yeaah. Suuure, you are.'" implies vocalizing a disbelief of the others' origins. Just by expressing that disbelief in an other's belief system starts a dialogue so one can try to break down the other's belief. If I said to a friend, "You know that God really doesn't exist, right?" then I'm trying to change their belief system. But I have too much respect to do that to my friends.
>
> Once again, you seem to be taking me literally expecting Mid-nite or Terrific to acutally confront them. Again, absurd humor to make a point. Just as you can have a scene where Terrific and Mid-nite debate whether the Gentlemen Ghost is an illusionist or not. You can a similar scene with just the two of them discussing their thoughts and opinions on their teammates. It doesn't have to be a deep, issue-long theological discussion. A panel here, a line there can convey a lot. The problem with this story is they don't set a solid foundation for what are parameters on Mid-nite's beliefs and why.
> I am beginning to believe you have a problem with religion. So,it pushes your buttons when you see something mentioned about atheism, and you feel as if you have to join the fray. You apparently have no problem with inferring things whether reading a comic book or by what I mean in a post.
> If you want to infer, go ahead. You want to like this story? Go ahead. You want this to be the best damn Dr. Mid-nite story, go ahead. But if your happiness depends on my having to agree with you. You are not going to be happy.
>
I was going to reply to your comments, but luckily I read your whole response first. If you're going to be so closed-minded that you can't even be civil then there's no point in continuing this. I offered some valid points, and a point of view that you evidently hadn't considered and obviously refuse to listen to. Instead, you want to infer that I have a problem with religion (which I don't). Keep standing there with your arms crossed, shaking your head all you want. It's not going to get you very far in this world to be so closed-minded.


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Da' Spyda'




Ah, so I am closed-minded when I don't agree with your views, but you aren't closed-minded when you don't agree with my views.

Now I know how the world works.

Da' Spyda'


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Zazu




> Ah, so I am closed-minded when I don't agree with your views, but you aren't closed-minded when you don't agree with my views.
>
> Now I know how the world works.
>
> Da' Spyda'

You said I'd have a point if it was established before and I gave you examples of it being established before. You want stories to be bogged down with trivial quibbles between Midnite/Terrific and spiritually powered heroes. This does not benefit the plots or the readers in any way. I explained that Midnite and Terrific respect their colleagues enough to not question/doubt them. You're the one posing the questions here and I'm just trying to help you out. I didn't realize you weren't actually looking for an answer. Buh-bye.


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