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Talezite




Here is a question I am unsure of. Is the Earth 2 Robin still alive or did he really get killed by the Anti Monitor's shadow people minions in Crisis on Infinate Earths?? I hear some talk from Batman fans I know who say Robin 2 is definately alive but I think they are talking about Jason Todd. Can anyone clarify this maybe something happened in DC Countdown I was unaware of??

Also did the Earth 2 Robin have more experience? I think he could have since the Earth 2 Batman retired at some point I believe and became comissioner of Gotham City before he died. In theory the Earth 2 Robin would be a more mature experienced version of any Robin I can think of (including the mainstream DCU Dick Grayson)aka Nighwing

Nonetheless some food for thought and I am curious what everyone else thinks.

Good reading to you all.


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Niddle




> Here is a question I am unsure of. Is the Earth 2 Robin still alive or did he really get killed by the Anti Monitor's shadow people minions in Crisis on Infinate Earths?? I hear some talk from Batman fans I know who say Robin 2 is definately alive but I think they are talking about Jason Todd. Can anyone clarify this maybe something happened in DC Countdown I was unaware of??
>
> Also did the Earth 2 Robin have more experience? I think he could have since the Earth 2 Batman retired at some point I believe and became comissioner of Gotham City before he died. In theory the Earth 2 Robin would be a more mature experienced version of any Robin I can think of (including the mainstream DCU Dick Grayson)aka Nighwing
>
> Nonetheless some food for thought and I am curious what everyone else thinks.
>
> Good reading to you all.


Robin was a boy during the 1940s, and the Crisis took place during the mid 1980s.

How's 40 years of experience sit with you?


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Daveym




> Here is a question I am unsure of. Is the Earth 2 Robin still alive or did he really get killed by the Anti Monitor's shadow people minions in Crisis on Infinate Earths?? I hear some talk from Batman fans I know who say Robin 2 is definately alive but I think they are talking about Jason Todd. Can anyone clarify this maybe something happened in DC Countdown I was unaware of??
>
As I understand it when the Crisis was being planned and executed DC were unsure what fate to give to the Huntress as she was a very popluar character.
By way of compromise they left her and Robins fate a little unclear in their 'death' scene just in case they thought of a way of seguing her into the post-crisis earth... but once the new world order was becoming clear DC & Roy Thomas had decided the best thing to do with the leftover JSA was to give them a final send off in a blaze of glory one-shot called'Last days of the JSA'. This saw Thomas take the opportunity to deal with Huntress & Robins fate and finalize the fact they had indeed died in the Crisis and we saw the JSA bury their 'remains... Shame.


> Also did the Earth 2 Robin have more experience? I think he could have since the Earth 2 Batman retired at some point I believe and became comissioner of Gotham City before he died. In theory the Earth 2 Robin would be a more mature experienced version of any Robin I can think of (including the mainstream DCU Dick Grayson)aka Nighwing
>
> Nonetheless some food for thought and I am curious what everyone else thinks.
>
> Good reading to you all.

"savage hulk is at least as strong as superman. While i don't know despero; i am betting the gravage hulk would give him a good battle before beating him".


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Ham




Robin retired from active duty to practice law, and then as ambassador to the United Nations. He was semi-retired up until the advent of the
Super Squad. Therefore, he didn't really have 40 years of crime fighting experience.


> > Here is a question I am unsure of. Is the Earth 2 Robin still alive or did he really get killed by the Anti Monitor's shadow people minions in Crisis on Infinate Earths?? I hear some talk from Batman fans I know who say Robin 2 is definately alive but I think they are talking about Jason Todd. Can anyone clarify this maybe something happened in DC Countdown I was unaware of??
> >
> > Also did the Earth 2 Robin have more experience? I think he could have since the Earth 2 Batman retired at some point I believe and became comissioner of Gotham City before he died. In theory the Earth 2 Robin would be a more mature experienced version of any Robin I can think of (including the mainstream DCU Dick Grayson)aka Nighwing
> >
> > Nonetheless some food for thought and I am curious what everyone else thinks.
> >
> > Good reading to you all.
>
>
> Robin was a boy during the 1940s, and the Crisis took place during the mid 1980s.
>
> How's 40 years of experience sit with you?


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Scott




> Robin retired from active duty to practice law, and then as ambassador to the United Nations. He was semi-retired up until the advent of the Super Squad. Therefore, he didn't really have 40 years of crime fighting experience.

But he was active as a crimefighter in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. He joined the JSA in the 60s and was featured in various JLA/JSA team-ups in the 70s. His ambassadorship and law practice were "wedged" in there. He became more active in 1976 with the Super Squad and JSA. After the Batman died, he became less active, letting the Huntress handle things in Gotham City. He then started up again around the time that Infinity Inc. formed and he was active until the Crisis hit. I'd say he has at least 30+ years of crime fighting experience.

Scott


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Ham




> > Robin retired from active duty to practice law, and then as ambassador to the United Nations. He was semi-retired up until the advent of the Super Squad. Therefore, he didn't really have 40 years of crime fighting experience.
>
> But he was active as a crimefighter in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. He joined the JSA in the 60s and was featured in various JLA/JSA team-ups in the 70s. His ambassadorship and law practice were "wedged" in there. He became more active in 1976 with the Super Squad and JSA. After the Batman died, he became less active, letting the Huntress handle things in Gotham City. He then started up again around the time that Infinity Inc. formed and he was active until the Crisis hit. I'd say he has at least 30+ years of crime fighting experience.
>
> Scott

The Earth 2 Robin appeared in a handful of adventures in the 1960's.
Assuming he started his career at age 10, fought crime with Batman for about 8 years, then 4 years of college, 4 more of law school, and several as an ambassador, I don't believe you can say he has 30 plus years of active adventuring. Even with a sliding time scale.


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Scott




> The Earth 2 Robin appeared in a handful of adventures in the 1960's.
> Assuming he started his career at age 10, fought crime with Batman for about 8 years, then 4 years of college, 4 more of law school, and several as an ambassador, I don't believe you can say he has 30 plus years of active adventuring. Even with a sliding time scale.

Let's see. If we discount Robin's 1960s stories, we still have from 1940 to 1956 (BATMAN #102 was the last Golden Age story as accepted by Overstreet and comic book historians) and from 1976 to 1986 for the Earth-2 Robin adventures. That gives him 26 years of crime fighting experience. And I would surely give him at least 4 years for his active JSA membership in the 1960s and pre-1976. Also there was no sliding time scale pre-Crisis. That's a post-Zero Hour device. So 30 years is pretty accurate.

Scott


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Fastback




> Here is a question I am unsure of. Is the Earth 2 Robin still alive or did he really get killed by the Anti Monitor's shadow people minions in Crisis on Infinate Earths?? I hear some talk from Batman fans I know who say Robin 2 is definately alive but I think they are talking about Jason Todd. Can anyone clarify this maybe something happened in DC Countdown I was unaware of??
>
> Also did the Earth 2 Robin have more experience? I think he could have since the Earth 2 Batman retired at some point I believe and became comissioner of Gotham City before he died. In theory the Earth 2 Robin would be a more mature experienced version of any Robin I can think of (including the mainstream DCU Dick Grayson)aka Nighwing
>
> Nonetheless some food for thought and I am curious what everyone else thinks.
>
> Good reading to you all.


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Ham




> > The Earth 2 Robin appeared in a handful of adventures in the 1960's.
> > Assuming he started his career at age 10, fought crime with Batman for about 8 years, then 4 years of college, 4 more of law school, and several as an ambassador, I don't believe you can say he has 30 plus years of active adventuring. Even with a sliding time scale.
>
> Let's see. If we discount Robin's 1960s stories, we still have from 1940 to 1956 (BATMAN #102 was the last Golden Age story as accepted by Overstreet and comic book historians) and from 1976 to 1986 for the Earth-2 Robin adventures. That gives him 26 years of crime fighting experience. And I would surely give him at least 4 years for his active JSA membership in the 1960s and pre-1976. Also there was no sliding time scale pre-Crisis. That's a post-Zero Hour device. So 30 years is pretty accurate.

If there was no sliding time scale pre-crisis, then why was the JLA of the 1970's not all in the late forties? There is always a sliding time scale in comics. The Robin in 1956 was certainly not in his late 20's, which he would have had to have been, having debuted in 1940. My point is: Yes, the Earth 2 Robin has much more experience than Nightwing, but certainly not the 40 years as originally posted.
>
> Scott


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Ham




> > > The Earth 2 Robin appeared in a handful of adventures in the 1960's.
> > > Assuming he started his career at age 10, fought crime with Batman for about 8 years, then 4 years of college, 4 more of law school, and several as an ambassador, I don't believe you can say he has 30 plus years of active adventuring. Even with a sliding time scale.
> >
> > Let's see. If we discount Robin's 1960s stories, we still have from 1940 to 1956 (BATMAN #102 was the last Golden Age story as accepted by Overstreet and comic book historians) and from 1976 to 1986 for the Earth-2 Robin adventures. That gives him 26 years of crime fighting experience. And I would surely give him at least 4 years for his active JSA membership in the 1960s and pre-1976. Also there was no sliding time scale pre-Crisis. That's a post-Zero Hour device. So 30 years is pretty accurate.
>
> If there was no sliding time scale pre-crisis, then why was the JLA of the 1970's not all in the late forties? There is always a sliding time scale in comics. The Robin in 1956 was certainly not in his late 20's, which he would have had to have been, having debuted in 1940. My point is: Yes, the Earth 2 Robin has much more experience than Nightwing, but certainly not the 40 years as originally posted.

I meant "in THEIR late forties" not "the late forties".
> >
> > Scott


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Scott




> The Robin in 1956 was certainly not in his late 20's, which he would have had to have been, having debuted in 1940.

Um, no. You stated that Robin was 10 when he made his debut, so he would be 16 in 1956. I always pegged Robin to be 12 or 13 when he started though.

The thing that you are ignoring is that Robin was active during World War II, therefore he has a set point of beginning for a timeline. You can't say that he started his career "10 years ago" like the Robin of Earth-1 or "new Earth" or whatever DC is calling it these days.

Scott


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Ham




> > The Robin in 1956 was certainly not in his late 20's, which he would have had to have been, having debuted in 1940.
>
> Um, no. You stated that Robin was 10 when he made his debut, so he would be 16 in 1956. I always pegged Robin to be 12 or 13 when he started though.
>
> The thing that you are ignoring is that Robin was active during World War II, therefore he has a set point of beginning for a timeline. You can't say that he started his career "10 years ago" like the Robin of Earth-1 or "new Earth" or whatever DC is calling it these days.

Um, no. As far as I know, 1940 to 1956 is 16 years, and a ten year old boy would be 26 in 1956. Also, I know he (as well as all of the JSAers) were active in WWII. However, the time between the war and the 1960s and 1970s adventures were "ignored" so as not to have them too old. When the came out of retirement to meet the JLA in the early 60s, we were told they had been inactive for "about a decade", putting them all about twenty years older than the JLA. However, once 1980 rolled around, the JLA members certainly weren't in their 50's, so the JSAers couldn't have been in their 70's either. Regardless, my point is still this: The Earth 2 Robin, while having been around since the 1940's, was not active in crime fighting for the entire time between his debut and his death in Crisis (roughly 45 years). Rather, it has been shown that, given his education, law career, and ambassadorship, he more than likely was semi-retired upon reaching adulthood. I put him at about 50 years old at the time of the Crisis. So, as I figure it, he has about 20 to 25 years experience.


> Scott


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Scott




> Um, no. As far as I know, 1940 to 1956 is 16 years, and a ten year old boy would be 26 in 1956.

Yeah, that was bad math on my part. Sorry about that.

> However, once 1980 rolled around, the JLA members certainly weren't in their 50's, so the JSAers couldn't have been in their 70's either.

But the JSAers were. Read ALL-STAR SQUADRON ANNUAL #2 for the scoop on how & why the JSAers appeared younger in the 70s and 80s than they actually were.

> The Earth 2 Robin, while having been around since the 1940's, was not active in crime fighting for the entire time between his debut and his death in Crisis (roughly 45 years). Rather, it has been shown that, given his education, law career, and ambassadorship, he more than likely was semi-retired upon reaching adulthood. I put him at about 50 years old at the time of the Crisis. So, as I figure it, he has about 20 to 25 years experience.

At the time of the Crisis, using your starting age, Robin was 55. And Robin did semi-retire when he reached adulthood, but he was also still semi-active. You still have 26 years of active experience plus his semi-active years. I'd give him 4 years for that. In either view, he has had plenty of crimefighting experience. I think the original posters point of view was publishing history not the actual comic book stories.

Scott


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Ham




> > Um, no. As far as I know, 1940 to 1956 is 16 years, and a ten year old boy would be 26 in 1956.
>
> Yeah, that was bad math on my part. Sorry about that.
>
> > However, once 1980 rolled around, the JLA members certainly weren't in their 50's, so the JSAers couldn't have been in their 70's either.
>
> But the JSAers were. Read ALL-STAR SQUADRON ANNUAL #2 for the scoop on how & why the JSAers appeared younger in the 70s and 80s than they actually were.
>
> > The Earth 2 Robin, while having been around since the 1940's, was not active in crime fighting for the entire time between his debut and his death in Crisis (roughly 45 years). Rather, it has been shown that, given his education, law career, and ambassadorship, he more than likely was semi-retired upon reaching adulthood. I put him at about 50 years old at the time of the Crisis. So, as I figure it, he has about 20 to 25 years experience.
>
> At the time of the Crisis, using your starting age, Robin was 55. And Robin did semi-retire when he reached adulthood, but he was also still semi-active. You still have 26 years of active experience plus his semi-active years. I'd give him 4 years for that. In either view, he has had plenty of crimefighting experience. I think the original posters point of view was publishing history not the actual comic book stories.

Either way, The Earth 2 Robin has way more experience than even the most seasoned crime fighter of Earth One.

>
> Scott


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little kon-el





> > At the time of the Crisis, using your starting age, Robin was 55. And Robin did semi-retire when he reached adulthood, but he was also still semi-active. You still have 26 years of active experience plus his semi-active years. I'd give him 4 years for that. In either view, he has had plenty of crimefighting experience. I think the original posters point of view was publishing history not the actual comic book stories.
>
> Either way, The Earth 2 Robin has way more experience than even the most seasoned crime fighter of Earth One.
>

Wasn't Robin affected by the Ian Karkull spell? I always thought that that's what kept him pretty much in his prime until the 1980s. He must've spent at least a decade in his teens, right?

That must have been really weird for a while. I couldn't imaging looking 16 with a 25 year old mental experience. That almost seems perverse.

- little kon-el


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Ham




>
> > > At the time of the Crisis, using your starting age, Robin was 55. And Robin did semi-retire when he reached adulthood, but he was also still semi-active. You still have 26 years of active experience plus his semi-active years. I'd give him 4 years for that. In either view, he has had plenty of crimefighting experience. I think the original posters point of view was publishing history not the actual comic book stories.
> >
> > Either way, The Earth 2 Robin has way more experience than even the most seasoned crime fighter of Earth One.
> >
>
> Wasn't Robin affected by the Ian Karkull spell? I always thought that that's what kept him pretty much in his prime until the 1980s. He must've spent at least a decade in his teens, right?
>
> That must have been really weird for a while. I couldn't imaging looking 16 with a 25 year old mental experience. That almost seems perverse.
>
> - little kon-el

I always disliked the "Ian Karkull Explanation" as to the JSA keeping their relative youth. As a kid in the 70's, I always assumed that Earth 2, besides vibrating at a different speed than Earth 1, also rotated at a different speed than Earth 1, allowing the JSA members to age a little less than normal. This made sense to me. Once the Karkull story came along (and I respect Roy Thomas for al least trying to come up with an explanation), my idea crashed. However, the Karkull explanation only works with the people that were there at the time. This leaves so many characters out in the cold as far as slowed aging goes. In my own ittle world, I'm still sticking with my idea.


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Ed Love




> >
> > > > At the time of the Crisis, using your starting age, Robin was 55. And Robin did semi-retire when he reached adulthood, but he was also still semi-active. You still have 26 years of active experience plus his semi-active years. I'd give him 4 years for that. In either view, he has had plenty of crimefighting experience. I think the original posters point of view was publishing history not the actual comic book stories.
> > >
> > > Either way, The Earth 2 Robin has way more experience than even the most seasoned crime fighter of Earth One.
> > >
> >
> > Wasn't Robin affected by the Ian Karkull spell? I always thought that that's what kept him pretty much in his prime until the 1980s. He must've spent at least a decade in his teens, right?
> >
> > That must have been really weird for a while. I couldn't imaging looking 16 with a 25 year old mental experience. That almost seems perverse.
> >
> > - little kon-el
>
> I always disliked the "Ian Karkull Explanation" as to the JSA keeping their relative youth. As a kid in the 70's, I always assumed that Earth 2, besides vibrating at a different speed than Earth 1, also rotated at a different speed than Earth 1, allowing the JSA members to age a little less than normal. This made sense to me. Once the Karkull story came along (and I respect Roy Thomas for al least trying to come up with an explanation), my idea crashed. However, the Karkull explanation only works with the people that were there at the time. This leaves so many characters out in the cold as far as slowed aging goes. In my own ittle world, I'm still sticking with my idea.

I liked it. For one thing it was a fun story, and good to see the JSA together in an adventure (as that rarely happened in All-Star Squadron). But, also, it serves to underscore how easy it is to provide an explanation for the relative youthfulness of the heroes, even normal guys like Sandman, Batman, and Robin and the relative future spouses. As often as readers keep trotting out that so and so should be old or dead because they had no powers, this highlights the response, "so what?" There are dozens of ways that they could have kept their youth, here's a nice blanket explanation for about a dozen characters. They might be normal in many regards, they didn't lead normal lives, they fought space aliens, time travellers, sorcerers and travelled to other dimensions and times. They only limitation to their age is that of the creator and readers. So, even if they weren't there for that event, as superheroes they faced enough strange things that the age doesn't bother me. If I see a relatively normal guy like the Whip show up still relatively young, I just assume there's a past story reason for it, not that I actually need to see the reasoning.

As far as Robin, I figured the Karkull effect slowed down the ravages of time, thus as a kid and teen-ager, he'd still age relatively normal, as his body is still developing. He wouldn't notice side-affects from the Karkull effect until adulthood and his body started declining. Otherwise, there'd also be delays in the characters healing and building muscle. Which is really thinking about it way too much... \:\)

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Scott




.


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Scott




> Wasn't Robin affected by the Ian Karkull spell?

He was. But his grey hair was flowing by the mid-70s and colored almost all grey by the time of AMERICA VS. THE JUSTICE SOCIETY.

Scott


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Ed Love




> > Wasn't Robin affected by the Ian Karkull spell?
>
> He was. But his grey hair was flowing by the mid-70s and colored almost all grey by the time of AMERICA VS. THE JUSTICE SOCIETY.
>
I don't think he had gray hair until INFINITY INC. As gorgeous as Ordway's art is, that series did a dis-service to the JSA in my eyes. I think to play up the age differences between the JSA and the kids, the JSA aged decades over night. Look at how young Johnny Thunder looked in JLA 194-197, pretty much the same age he did in the 40's and the rest of the JSA had the graying at the temples but otherwise not that old looking. But with INFINITY INC #1, the heroes all looked about 15-20 years older than their last appearance just a year or two earlier (Thunder looked like he aged about 30), Alan Scott's hair was receding when he last had a full headfull. And Robin who had always looked to be and was pretty much played as being physically around the age of the Earth-1 heroes, now had the wrinkles and gray hairs, looking to be about the same age as the rest of the JSA.


> Scott

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Mikel Midnight




> I don't think he had gray hair until INFINITY INC. As gorgeous as Ordway's art is, that series did a dis-service to the JSA in my eyes. I think to play up the age differences between the JSA and the kids, the JSA aged decades over night. Look at how young Johnny Thunder looked in JLA 194-197, pretty much the same age he did in the 40's and the rest of the JSA had the graying at the temples but otherwise not that old looking.

I know I'm in the minority, but I actually liked to see the characters look closer to their actual ages.

> But with INFINITY INC #1, the heroes all looked about 15-20 years older than their last appearance just a year or two earlier (Thunder looked like he aged about 30), Alan Scott's hair was receding when he last had a full headfull.

The revelation that he wore a toupee was one of my all-time favorite Alan Scott moments.

> And Robin who had always looked to be and was pretty much played as being physically around the age of the Earth-1 heroes, now had the wrinkles and gray hairs, looking to be about the same age as the rest of the JSA.

He was. When he started out, he was maybe 10 years younger than they were. When you're a preteen, that's a huge difference; fifty years later, not so much.


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Sam Hawkins




> > I don't think he had gray hair until INFINITY INC. As gorgeous as Ordway's art is, that series did a dis-service to the JSA in my eyes. I think to play up the age differences between the JSA and the kids, the JSA aged decades over night. Look at how young Johnny Thunder looked in JLA 194-197, pretty much the same age he did in the 40's and the rest of the JSA had the graying at the temples but otherwise not that old looking.
>
> I know I'm in the minority, but I actually liked to see the characters look closer to their actual ages.

I don't know how much of a minority you're in, Mikel (Great site you have, BTW. One of my favorites). I like some visible age on them as well - though not so much that their heoric exploits look embarrassingly contrived - and the JSA was always the best vehicle around for exploring that angle. I remember an issue of Amazing Heroes in which Roy Thomas worked out the birthdates of the JSA. Once you do that, you really do need to deal with the age issue in depth, though it's understandable that companies would be reluctant to do so. But I have a feeling that there are lots of good stories yet to be done with "maturing" heroes.


>
> > But with INFINITY INC #1, the heroes all looked about 15-20 years older than their last appearance just a year or two earlier (Thunder looked like he aged about 30), Alan Scott's hair was receding when he last had a full headfull.
>
> The revelation that he wore a toupee was one of my all-time favorite Alan Scott moments.
>
> > And Robin who had always looked to be and was pretty much played as being physically around the age of the Earth-1 heroes, now had the wrinkles and gray hairs, looking to be about the same age as the rest of the JSA.
>
> He was. When he started out, he was maybe 10 years younger than they were. When you're a preteen, that's a huge difference; fifty years later, not so much.


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