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galmanjr1968




After the golden age Green Arrow was killed in Crisis On Infinite Earths, whatever happened to the golden age Speedy who survived? How did the writers explain this one? Was he was "retconned" out of existence? Since we now have the multiverse back, there is room for the G.A. Speedy because we know there is a version of the G.A. Robin active.


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Ed Love




> After the golden age Green Arrow was killed in Crisis On Infinite Earths, whatever happened to the golden age Speedy who survived? How did the writers explain this one? Was he was "retconned" out of existence? Since we now have the multiverse back, there is room for the G.A. Speedy because we know there is a version of the G.A. Robin active.

That's the thing about the deaths of characters like the Earth-2 Robin and Green Arrow and Lex Luthor earlier. While used for dramatic effect in the story, ultimately they don't really count as ALL duplicate heroes and villains were retconned into non-existance. Usually it was the Silver-age version over the GA, but even that wasn't iron clad. In some cases like Luthor, ultimately both versions were gone in favor of an all new one when Superman's book got revamped. So, it really doesn't matter if Speedy survived that battle or not.

Now, I thought it would have been daring to have the present day Green Arrow actually be the golden-age Speedy, passing his own moniker to a new hero. If there is a version of the Earth-2 Robin active, then sure, maybe there's a Speedy. And of course, there may be a Green Arrow as well since Robin had also died in that comic.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Talezite




> > After the golden age Green Arrow was killed in Crisis On Infinite Earths, whatever happened to the golden age Speedy who survived? How did the writers explain this one? Was he was "retconned" out of existence? Since we now have the multiverse back, there is room for the G.A. Speedy because we know there is a version of the G.A. Robin active.
>
> That's the thing about the deaths of characters like the Earth-2 Robin and Green Arrow and Lex Luthor earlier. While used for dramatic effect in the story, ultimately they don't really count as ALL duplicate heroes and villains were retconned into non-existance. Usually it was the Silver-age version over the GA, but even that wasn't iron clad. In some cases like Luthor, ultimately both versions were gone in favor of an all new one when Superman's book got revamped. So, it really doesn't matter if Speedy survived that battle or not.
>
> Now, I thought it would have been daring to have the present day Green Arrow actually be the golden-age Speedy, passing his own moniker to a new hero. If there is a version of the Earth-2 Robin active, then sure, maybe there's a Speedy. And of course, there may be a Green Arrow as well since Robin had also died in that comic.
>
> Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman
>
> http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


I completely agree on that it would be daring/interesting to make the present day Green Arrow to actually be the Golden Age Speedy! In my opinion that would have been better than having Ollie come back from the dead...it would have been a true curve ball plot line wise as most long term readers are unfortunately used to all kinds of characters coming back from the dead.

The Golden age Speedy could be an interesting character if placed in the right hands (as all characters could potentially be). My take on him is that he would be a trainer for the marksmen of the DCU in the same manner Wildcat has taught Batman, Catwoman, etc (I am sure there are more) to fight.

as always good reading to you all.




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fred




When dealing with the E-2 Speedy don't forget that he skipped most of the time between WW2 and present day by being time lost. He'd still be one of the younger heroes.


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Scott




> When dealing with the E-2 Speedy don't forget that he skipped most of the time between WW2 and present day by being time lost. He'd still be one of the younger heroes.

Which is why I always wondered why he wasn't used in ALL-STAR COMICS in the 70s. He would have been a decent addition to the "Super Squad" of Robin, Power Girl and Star-Spangled Kid or Infinity Inc.

Scott
"The art in comics is generally better than ever, the writing is often clever and glib, but in spite of that, far too many comics are utterly unreadable. Even hardcore fans find many comics daunting to follow! The craft of comics storytelling is all but lost. A who's who of industry big shots have privately agreed with me when we've discussed exactly this subject, but it's a tough problem to fix, given the often huge egos of the creators, general creative anarchy and lack of trained editorial people." Jim Shooter


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Ed Love




> > When dealing with the E-2 Speedy don't forget that he skipped most of the time between WW2 and present day by being time lost. He'd still be one of the younger heroes.
>
> Which is why I always wondered why he wasn't used in ALL-STAR COMICS in the 70s. He would have been a decent addition to the "Super Squad" of Robin, Power Girl and Star-Spangled Kid or Infinity Inc.
>
>
Probably because he's a direct copy. Power Girl is substantially different from Supergirl, Robin was allowed to be an adult (and he didn't stay too long). Star-Spangled Kid was his own character. At that point, Speedy would be almost identical to his Earth-1 counterpart who was appearing periodically in the 70's Teen Titans. Plus that would have put two 7 Soldiers on the team. And, it would probably be harder to justify the side-kick Speedy and not have Green Arrow himself who would still be a young man, younger than most of the rest of the JSA, Robin included! Star-Spangled Kid worked because he was seen as the dominant hero and Stripesy the side-kick. Personally, I would have used the Crimson Avenger.


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Scott




Since you brought it up, that's another thing that bothered me about the 70s and 80s incarnations of the JSA, how come they never invited the revived SSOV to join the ranks of the JSA? These guys were timelost for 20+ years (at the time of JLA #100-102) and could have used the help and comfort of the JSA. I know we are supposed to assume that most all of them went into retirement but it still would have been a decent thing to do.

Scott


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Chris




> Since you brought it up, that's another thing that bothered me about the 70s and 80s incarnations of the JSA, how come they never invited the revived SSOV to join the ranks of the JSA? These guys were timelost for 20+ years (at the time of JLA #100-102) and could have used the help and comfort of the JSA. I know we are supposed to assume that most all of them went into retirement but it still would have been a decent thing to do.
>
> Scott

Interesting thought. Something I kind of agree with, at least to a certain degree. In the case of Billy Gun and Stuff, I think Billy Gunn (who was already old) died between 1950, and the 1970's. For Stuff, I don't know if the World's Finest Vigilante stories from hte late 1970's were cannon for both Earth 1 and Earth 2...but the story was that the original Stuff was killed off, in modern times, and his son took his place. The Shining Knight "retired" and was returned to his proper place in Medieval England (circa All Star Comics 64-65), Crimson Avenger was killed off, dying heroically to stop terrorists, after he found out he had incurable cancer (I believe) in DC Comics Presents #38, and Wing was killed off in 1950, as shown in flashback in JLA #100-102. Stripsey, I think, retired, Star Spangled Kid joined the JSA. That would leave, Green Arrow, Speedy, and Vigilante. I actually could have seen Green Arrow being admitted to the JSA, but my guess is that they felt he was too close to his Earth-1 counterpart, even at that time (perhaps since a Green Arrow was in the JLA, they felt that the JSA should remain different by not having it's own Ollie?)I think the GA Ollie would have been a nice fit at some point though. And perhaps Stripesy could have been the team mechanic/support staff guy.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised that when Infinity, Inc. was started, that the GA Speedy and Sandy didn't make the cut. That's where Speedy would have been more appropriate (since even though he was older, chronilogically, his body was still a 20-something, due to being lost in time from that old JLA/JSA team up story.)

As for the original question, I'm not sure why Speedy wasn't shown as being killed off during COIE......ultimately, he (and the golden age variants of Green Arrow, Superman, Robin, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and I assume, the Earth 1 versions of Guardian, Airwave 1, Wildcat, Dr.Fate, Johnny Thunder and Vigilante were all elminated from continuity as a result of Crisis, since they were so close to their counterparts), so whether or not GA Speedy's fate at the time of COIE wasn't physically shown, it didn't matter as he (and the above group of characters) no longer existed in post crisis history.

Now here are some Post Crisis comments: Why did DC not better plan the post crisis revisions? Here are some takes I have on what they could have done to try to keep as much of pre-crisis history as possible:

1) Wonder Woman: I'm surprised that it took them so long to use Wonder Woman. I think either John Byrne's idea of having Hyppolyta as the GA Wonder Woman was great. Another possible idea would have been to have Diana be active from the 1940's through to present day.

2) Superman: I never really liked the Young All Stars as a separate book, but some ideas used in the series were great. Why not use the Iron Munro character and history, but have him be the GA Superman? Having a GA Superman, with a history where he was genetically altered, and not Kryptonian would have given him a unique identity.

3)Aquaman: I think his golden, silver and bronze age era stories should have been combined with some of the Peter David stuff.....he should have started his career in the 1940's, and due to being a hybrid Atlantean, he ages slower, thus allowing him to be a "teen" in the 1940's, joining the All Star Squadron, then age slower, and only reaching adult hood in modern times, and then helping to form the JLA. I would have kept the silver age history intact (with him being half Atlantean/Half Human....his natural father would be the light house keeper and his natural mom the Atlantean Queen)....I think this, because having him be truly the blood son of the lighthouse keeper, gave his relationship to Ocean Master more weight. I never liked the Keith Giffen mini series from 1988/89 or so.....his revision was boring in some ways, but hurt the dramatic element of his relationship to his own brother. If they're not real brothers, I don't see why they should truly care about each other or what they're doing.

4) Green Arrow/Speedy: why didn't they try to incorporate golden age and silver age elements......have them start in the 1940's, then get lost in time, ala JLA 100-102, then join the JLA and Teen Titans. It would mean having to move up where JLA 100-102 took place, chronilogically, but it allows you to have a GA & Speedy active in the 1940's and then again in the modern age. I'd use the silver age/bronze age origins for the characters too.....I don't like the modern interpertations that Ollie was just a playboy who fell overboard on his yaht because he was a lush, and then stopped a bunch of hippy pot growers. I preferred the more heroic origin of him being thrown overboard by modern age "pirates" and then him bringing them to justice later on, when after he learned to fend for himself on the desert island, after learning how to shoot a bow and arrow.

5) Supergirl/Powergirl & Superboy: I think John Byrne missed the boat. Superman didn't need quite the drastic overhaul he gave it. Superman did perhaps need to have his powers lessened a bit, but to loose so much of his previous history/background, hurt so many elements of his back story and supporting cast. The modern Superman, post Crisis, should have began his career as Superboy (it made more sense that he would have gained the experience by starting as a boy....he could have been influenced by/trained by a Golden Age version of the character (a post Crisis altered version as I explain above), and also gain experience learning to work with others, in the Legion of Super Heroes. It would have helped the Legion's history, and give more weight to who Superman was. For Supergirl......she is still a survivor of Krypton, starts her career as Supergirl, joins the Legion, then in an effort to gain her "independance" and a move to woman hood, in her 20's, changes her identity to Power Girl and joins the JSA. It allows DC to keep both a "supergirl" to exist and a Power Girl who has ties to Krypton.

6) Captain Marvel/Fawcett Heroes: Keep their golden age/bronze age stories intact. He begins his career in 1940, joins the All Star Squadron, and then all the Fawcett heroes go into "suspended animation" due to Sivana's botched plot to defeat them (as revealed circa 1973, in Shazam #1)...they come out of suspended animation in the modern era and either become active, or retire. I never understood why they didn't keep Cap active in the 1940's, once COIE was over.

Oh Well.....just a few thoughts on what should have been done during the revamping for the post crisis continuity.


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Ed Love




> Now here are some Post Crisis comments: Why did DC not better plan the post crisis revisions? Here are some takes I have on what they could have done to try to keep as much of pre-crisis history as possible:
>
> 1) Wonder Woman: I'm surprised that it took them so long to use Wonder Woman. I think either John Byrne's idea of having Hyppolyta as the GA Wonder Woman was great. Another possible idea would have been to have Diana be active from the 1940's through to present day.

That has been long my point of view that I've espoused. As an Amazon (and a place to retreat to where no one seems to age past their prime), it's not too hard to buy her having a longer lifespan. Especially when re-booting her affected not just one book, but the history of three super-teams (JSA, JLA, Teen Titans).

> 2) Superman: I never really liked the Young All Stars as a separate book, but some ideas used in the series were great. Why not use the Iron Munro character and history, but have him be the GA Superman? Having a GA Superman, with a history where he was genetically altered, and not Kryptonian would have given him a unique identity.

Come back to this one with #6. I did like the Axis versions of the big 4 though.

> 3)Aquaman: I think his golden, silver and bronze age era stories should have been combined with some of the Peter David stuff.....he should have started his career in the 1940's, and due to being a hybrid Atlantean, he ages slower, thus allowing him to be a "teen" in the 1940's, joining the All Star Squadron, then age slower, and only reaching adult hood in modern times, and then helping to form the JLA. I would have kept the silver age history intact (with him being half Atlantean/Half Human....his natural father would be the light house keeper and his natural mom the Atlantean Queen)....I think this, because having him be truly the blood son of the lighthouse keeper, gave his relationship to Ocean Master more weight. I never liked the Keith Giffen mini series from 1988/89 or so.....his revision was boring in some ways, but hurt the dramatic element of his relationship to his own brother. If they're not real brothers, I don't see why they should truly care about each other or what they're doing.

I agree that particular mini was the beginning of the end of the character. Never cared for David's take though. I'd be fine just having the golden-age Aquaman's adventures being given to Neptune Perkins.

> 4) Green Arrow/Speedy: why didn't they try to incorporate golden age and silver age elements......have them start in the 1940's, then get lost in time, ala JLA 100-102, then join the JLA and Teen Titans. It would mean having to move up where JLA 100-102 took place, chronilogically, but it allows you to have a GA & Speedy active in the 1940's and then again in the modern age. I'd use the silver age/bronze age origins for the characters too.....I don't like the modern interpertations that Ollie was just a playboy who fell overboard on his yaht because he was a lush, and then stopped a bunch of hippy pot growers. I preferred the more heroic origin of him being thrown overboard by modern age "pirates" and then him bringing them to justice later on, when after he learned to fend for himself on the desert island, after learning how to shoot a bow and arrow.
>
Agree about the origin. The removal of GA and Speedy from history does damage the Seven Soldiers team considerably, moreso than Superman, Batman & Robin, and Wonder Woman from the JSA. But, it wasn't insummountable with the great variety of heroes DC had that they didn't make use of such as the TNT & Dynamite (if you wanted a dynamic duo type) and the Spider (turning him into a villain on the other hand...)

> 5) Supergirl/Powergirl & Superboy: I think John Byrne missed the boat. Superman didn't need quite the drastic overhaul he gave it. Superman did perhaps need to have his powers lessened a bit, but to loose so much of his previous history/background, hurt so many elements of his back story and supporting cast. The modern Superman, post Crisis, should have began his career as Superboy (it made more sense that he would have gained the experience by starting as a boy....he could have been influenced by/trained by a Golden Age version of the character (a post Crisis altered version as I explain above), and also gain experience learning to work with others, in the Legion of Super Heroes. It would have helped the Legion's history, and give more weight to who Superman was. For Supergirl......she is still a survivor of Krypton, starts her career as Supergirl, joins the Legion, then in an effort to gain her "independance" and a move to woman hood, in her 20's, changes her identity to Power Girl and joins the JSA. It allows DC to keep both a "supergirl" to exist and a Power Girl who has ties to Krypton.

This is where DC clearly didn't have any plans. Originally, with Superman, the reboot was to be more like Wonder Woman's, starting completely over and just coming onto the superhero scene. That's part of why there was no more Superboy. But somewhere management decided that while he'd get an updated origin, he would still have been around a few years at the start of his regular series by Byrne & Wolfman. Byrne has stated if he knew that going in, he might not have chucked Superboy.

Personally, I didn't mind the loss of Superboy (Krypto on the other hand...) nor Supergirl, thought she had a great death scene and its impact handled well with CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and immediate aftermath stories. When the history finally gotten shaken out, I think the Legion of Superheroes was a strong enough team and concept to survive the loss by just stating it was the heroic age the JLA & Teen Titans that inspired them rather one or two heroes and then just never refer to it again. But then they just kept having to explain it and muddying the waters than just let it be: it was the Time Trapper and a pocket universe Superboy, it was Mon-el operating as Valor, it was none of the above. They would do this as well with Donna Troy and Power Girl. This is where being slaves to continuity is bad. When you have to keep explaining the past instead of moving forward. For me, those characters have ceased to be interesting because of the constant re-writing of their histories. Why should I bother to keep up with it if the next writer coming along is just going to write their own version?

> 6) Captain Marvel/Fawcett Heroes: Keep their golden age/bronze age stories intact. He begins his career in 1940, joins the All Star Squadron, and then all the Fawcett heroes go into "suspended animation" due to Sivana's botched plot to defeat them (as revealed circa 1973, in Shazam #1)...they come out of suspended animation in the modern era and either become active, or retire. I never understood why they didn't keep Cap active in the 1940's, once COIE was over.

See, this was why I didn't see the need for Iron Munro and the others though they are some interesting characters. You don't have Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin, etc any more but you have the Fawcett & Quality heroes now on one Earth. You have Captain Marvel, Master Man, Ibis, Bulletman & Bulletgirl, Mr. Scarlet & Pinky, Uncle Sam, the Human Bomb, the Ray, Black Condor, Stormy Foster, etc. You have more than enough heroes and villains to help take up the slack, even if you decide to remove the Marvel Family to update them.
>
> Oh Well.....just a few thoughts on what should have been done during the revamping for the post crisis continuity.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman

http://hero-goggles.blogspot.com/


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Omar Karindu




> Since you brought it up, that's another thing that bothered me about the 70s and 80s incarnations of the JSA, how come they never invited the revived SSOV to join the ranks of the JSA? These guys were timelost for 20+ years (at the time of JLA #100-102) and could have used the help and comfort of the JSA. I know we are supposed to assume that most all of them went into retirement but it still would have been a decent thing to do.
>
> Scott

For just a second there, I misread "SSOV" as "SSOSV" and thought you were discussing JLofA #195-7 and All-Star Squadron #25-6 and Annual #2.

Though that misreading got me thinking, I'll admit....

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


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Mikel Midnight




> For just a second there, I misread "SSOV" as "SSOSV" and thought you were discussing JLofA #195-7 and All-Star Squadron #25-6 and Annual #2.

>

> Though that misreading got me thinking, I'll admit....



I always thought a great story could be told with the two groups accidentally receiving each others' mail....


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