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Talezite




Hello all. I finally got caught up on my comics reading and I have to say that I enjoyed JSA 13 alot. I really liked the scene with Wildcat boxing against the new Judomaster. It was not even the sparring match I liked so much in the characterization of Damage, Citizen Steel, "cosmic cowboy" Starman (Thom Kallor),and Wildcat jr. Their conversation showed alot about them in a short space and thats good storytelling to me. "You know we have some in the kitchen, you just have to put it in the microwave." (Steel to Starman)(on popcorn) (Starman to Steel) "Put it in the microwave? Oh no I could'nt be that cruel." That cracks me up and shows a little bit of the character's personalities. I also liked how Jakeem Thunder was a bit threatened with the presence of the new members, that and no pictures of him and the Thunderbolt up (up yet..imo) made him think the other team members may be forgetting him. His annoyance is understandable as that would bug me to if I were in his shoes. Also when the Thunderbolt and Starman salute Citzen Steel is another amusing part and even the best was the conversation between the Thunderbolt and Damage. Great stuff! ;\)

Onto the new potential members...I like them and think that they are all pretty interesting. This to me is again the talent Johns has for introducing new characters. Cool concepts and things that at first seem out of left field but I am sure he is going somewhere with all this.There was some nice legacies touched on that have not been mentioned or known till this point. (at least thats my take) The story threads seem to always weave into a nice tapestry or bigger picture if one will.

some thoughts and comments:

1) Amazing Man: I really liked the orginal one from All Star squadron (with his Absorbing man like powers if you will) and thought that having Will Everett's legacy tied into the civil rights movement was pretty cool. Inclusion of real life events and history is always cool to me in the context of an Earth with a metahuman population. (Like the DCU) He is up there with MLK and Malcom X apparently now for influence and philosophy. Markus Clay gave an interesting speech as well echoing the teachings and understanding of his grandfather. Also as a Starman series (Robinson) fan I was glad to see the first grandson mentioned and confirmation of his unfortunate death at the hands of the Mist.I also remember Amazing Man 2 in the JLA and Extreme Justice as well...

2) Mr America: (Jeffery Graves) I find this character compelling. I have always been a fan of characters with limted power and the investigative skills that he has coupled with his backstory makes the character seem more human to me. He definately is a mortal man but he has such willpower and determination it makes me feel like he could even have some leadership potential. The very fact that he survived a solo encounter with Gog shows me his tenacity.Also I am curious to see if the whips he uses are made of a unique material...I am not sure if this was ever explained...as I am not the most familiar with the original Mr America character.

3)Lighting: Cool look and interesting backstory in that she is a daughter of Black Lightning. The last time I read a comic with BL in it was the original Batman and the Outsiders and I did not realize he had a family with meta human members. The constant electical field idea has some cool applications and she is a classic neophyte hero who needs training. I also like that she met Stargirl and Cyclone first as thats a good thing as they are all close to the same age,etc...I have to wonder how strong her energy/electrical field actually is and I hope we have a chance to see her cut loose. She is a legacy character I was unaware of till now.

4)Corporal David Reid: This is a cool character concept. The FDR legacy character! Very nice nod to the formation of the JSA and his symbol reminds me of the Illumanati pyramid or the all seeing eye. I like mystic origin characters and this is a neat idea. I also like how he referred to the symbol as a "brand" rather than a mystic tattoo, I wonder what the story is with that?? Also the idea that the US military has metahumans in it that are not costume wearing heroes is interesting as well. "Brass don't like advertising it for obvious reasons." 'nuff said.

speculation...I wonder when its all said and done if Jackeem will be on this "team" and if they move on from the JSA...just going by the cover on this one but its just a thought.

Personally I think that the JSA is growing in number to take on Gog (etc) and show how powerful of a villian Gog truly is....I am also interested in seeing how Kal-el (of Earth 22) fares against Gog and if he will still be around after the "Thy Kingdom Come" plot arc is over.

As always good reading to you all.


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Sweep Secondhand




> I also liked how Jakeem Thunder was a bit threatened with the presence of the new members, that and no pictures of him and the Thunderbolt up (up yet..imo) made him think the other team members may be forgetting him. His annoyance is understandable as that would bug me to if I were in his shoes. Also when the Thunderbolt and Starman salute Citzen Steel is another amusing part and even the best was the conversation between the Thunderbolt and Damage. Great stuff! ;\)
>

I think Jakeem should direct his fear at the writers. He is an incredibly underdeveloped new character that is about to get lost in a sea of more new characters. Based on his previous treatment, if I was him I would be scared too! The one part of this segment I did like though was the acknowledgement that Johnny Thunder is still a part of the Thunderbolt which I have always thought was a brilliant move.


> some thoughts and comments:
>
> 1) Amazing Man: I really liked the orginal one from All Star squadron (with his Absorbing man like powers if you will) and thought that having Will Everett's legacy tied into the civil rights movement was pretty cool. Inclusion of real life events and history is always cool to me in the context of an Earth with a metahuman population. (Like the DCU) He is up there with MLK and Malcom X apparently now for influence and philosophy. Markus Clay gave an interesting speech as well echoing the teachings and understanding of his grandfather. Also as a Starman series (Robinson) fan I was glad to see the first grandson mentioned and confirmation of his unfortunate death at the hands of the Mist.I also remember Amazing Man 2 in the JLA and Extreme Justice as well...
>
Amazing Man 1 is a perfect example of a decent character being created, not properly developed, and then killed in a wasted death just to make a mediocre story feel more powerful. Now they have to create a new character to replace the previous one that was wasted.

> 2) Mr America: (Jeffery Graves) I find this character compelling. I have always been a fan of characters with limted power and the investigative skills that he has coupled with his backstory makes the character seem more human to me. He definately is a mortal man but he has such willpower and determination it makes me feel like he could even have some leadership potential. The very fact that he survived a solo encounter with Gog shows me his tenacity.Also I am curious to see if the whips he uses are made of a unique material...I am not sure if this was ever explained...as I am not the most familiar with the original Mr America character.
>

Agreed, I just hate the fact that they introduce another Mr. America and a genuine legacy character at the begining of this series only to kill him off unneccesarily. Now they have to create another one. Is anyone else starting to see a disturbing trend here?

> 3)Lighting: Cool look and interesting backstory in that she is a daughter of Black Lightning. The last time I read a comic with BL in it was the original Batman and the Outsiders and I did not realize he had a family with meta human members. The constant electical field idea has some cool applications and she is a classic neophyte hero who needs training. I also like that she met Stargirl and Cyclone first as thats a good thing as they are all close to the same age,etc...I have to wonder how strong her energy/electrical field actually is and I hope we have a chance to see her cut loose. She is a legacy character I was unaware of till now.
>
Don't know and don't really care. This is a character that has no place in the JSA. She's not a legacy, they have other legacies that are being passed over in favor of her, and the team has plenty of members already. Every page with her in it feels forced.

> 4)Corporal David Reid: This is a cool character concept. The FDR legacy character! Very nice nod to the formation of the JSA and his symbol reminds me of the Illumanati pyramid or the all seeing eye. I like mystic origin characters and this is a neat idea. I also like how he referred to the symbol as a "brand" rather than a mystic tattoo, I wonder what the story is with that?? Also the idea that the US military has metahumans in it that are not costume wearing heroes is interesting as well. "Brass don't like advertising it for obvious reasons." 'nuff said.
>
The character is OK but it just seems like they could have done a whole lot more with another true legacy character. Having a distant relative of FDR join the team just doesn't cut it with me when there are so many other characters that are true JSA/ASS legacies that could be developed instead. No where near as bad as the Lightening inclusion though.

> speculation...I wonder when its all said and done if Jackeem will be on this "team" and if they move on from the JSA...just going by the cover on this one but its just a thought.
>
I don't care what they do with him (short of killing him off) as long as they don't do nothing with him. Put him in the JSA book, put him in another book, just get the poor boy some page time!

> Personally I think that the JSA is growing in number to take on Gog (etc) and show how powerful of a villian Gog truly is....I am also interested in seeing how Kal-el (of Earth 22) fares against Gog and if he will still be around after the "Thy Kingdom Come" plot arc is over.
>
Personally I think you are right, I just hope they aren't packing the cannon with these new characters so they can blow them off in the story. I don't know who told comic writers that killing off quickly intoduce, poorly developed characters that readers haven't been given time to care about makes a story better. It doen't make a story feel more epic to me, it just makes me feel like everything associated with that character up to that point was a waste of pages in the big picture.

- Sweep


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zvelf




> The character is OK but it just seems like they could have done a whole lot more with another true legacy character. Having a distant relative of FDR join the team just doesn't cut it with me when there are so many other characters that are true JSA/ASS legacies that could be developed instead.

I am curious who these “many other” legacies are that you have in mind and are not in the book at present?



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Sweep Secondhand




> > The character is OK but it just seems like they could have done a whole lot more with another true legacy character. Having a distant relative of FDR join the team just doesn't cut it with me when there are so many other characters that are true JSA/ASS legacies that could be developed instead.
>
> I am curious who these “many other” legacies are that you have in mind and are not in the book at present?
>

Well for startes you could count any member of the All Star Squadron that has not been shown to have a legacy so far. Any of these characters would be preferable to a legacy related to FDR. To answer your question more precisely though, just off the top of my head I can think of:

Air Wave, JR (aka Masar) - presumed dead but could be revived.
Brain Wave, JR
The Guardian (Jim Harper clone)
Manhunter (Kate Spencer, daughter Golden Age Atom)
Judomaster (Tommy Jagger, son of the original, why create another?)
Zatara (Zachary Zatara)
Dr. Fate (new Kent Nelson)
Ibis (Danny Khalifa)
STRIPE (Pat Dugan's son)
Sargon the Sorcerer (David Sargant)

I am sure there are lots more but that's nine right there that would be better qualified as legacy characters than an FDR relative.

- Sweep


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Ed Love




> > > The character is OK but it just seems like they could have done a whole lot more with another true legacy character. Having a distant relative of FDR join the team just doesn't cut it with me when there are so many other characters that are true JSA/ASS legacies that could be developed instead.
> >
> > I am curious who these “many other” legacies are that you have in mind and are not in the book at present?
> >
>
> Well for startes you could count any member of the All Star Squadron that has not been shown to have a legacy so far. Any of these characters would be preferable to a legacy related to FDR. To answer your question more precisely though, just off the top of my head I can think of:
>
> Air Wave, JR (aka Masar) - presumed dead but could be revived.
> Brain Wave, JR
> The Guardian (Jim Harper clone)
> Manhunter (Kate Spencer, daughter Golden Age Atom)
> Judomaster (Tommy Jagger, son of the original, why create another?)
> Zatara (Zachary Zatara)
> Dr. Fate (new Kent Nelson)
> Ibis (Danny Khalifa)
> STRIPE (Pat Dugan's son)
> Sargon the Sorcerer (David Sargant)
>
> I am sure there are lots more but that's nine right there that would be better qualified as legacy characters than an FDR relative.

I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it? And I found it ridiculous to kill off Judomaster, Ibis, Dr. Fate, and Sargon only to be replaced. Why create another Judomaster to begin with? Was there any real story that could be told with a replacement character that couldn't have been told with the original? There's only so many things you can do with a character called Judomaster than almost anything come up with is going to be a cheap copy. At least the original has some context and history to build upon.

The FDR legacy character was actually the only one of the recent additions that strikes me as having real potential or halfway interesting. His source of powers is ambiguous, he's a soldier not a superhero so his motivation can stem from a different place. Especially when contrasted against Citizen Steel whose big legacy angle seems to be that he defines himself as not being his soldier grandfather.

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman



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Sweep Secondhand




> I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it? And I found it ridiculous to kill off Judomaster, Ibis, Dr. Fate, and Sargon only to be replaced. Why create another Judomaster to begin with? Was there any real story that could be told with a replacement character that couldn't have been told with the original? There's only so many things you can do with a character called Judomaster than almost anything come up with is going to be a cheap copy. At least the original has some context and history to build upon.
>
If you think this is bad, just look at what happend to the Freedom Fighters. They killed off three characters, two of which were relativly new and undeveloped, in the span of only a page or two just to kick off Infinite Crapfest. Before their bodies are even cold they have way to close for comfort replacements for all of them. Tommy Jagger would have made a decent new Judomaster and his ties with Checkmate help the character. I think they came up with this new one just to make the character a Meta. Look at Tom-Cat. I still say that is one completely uneccisary character but thank God they haven't killed off Wildcat just to have him replaced by that!

- Sweep


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Ed Love




> > I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it? And I found it ridiculous to kill off Judomaster, Ibis, Dr. Fate, and Sargon only to be replaced. Why create another Judomaster to begin with? Was there any real story that could be told with a replacement character that couldn't have been told with the original? There's only so many things you can do with a character called Judomaster than almost anything come up with is going to be a cheap copy. At least the original has some context and history to build upon.
> >
> If you think this is bad, just look at what happend to the Freedom Fighters. They killed off three characters, two of which were relativly new and undeveloped, in the span of only a page or two just to kick off Infinite Crapfest. Before their bodies are even cold they have way to close for comfort replacements for all of them. Tommy Jagger would have made a decent new Judomaster and his ties with Checkmate help the character. I think they came up with this new one just to make the character a Meta. Look at Tom-Cat. I still say that is one completely uneccisary character but thank God they haven't killed off Wildcat just to have him replaced by that!

Oh, I agree. One of the things I liked about the second generation Freedom Fighter characters the Ray, Black Condor, Damage (who was the modern version of the Human Bomb), and Firebrand (who was senselessly killed off by Johns further back) was that the originals were not sacrificed to make way for the new ones. The Ray, Black Condor, and Damage featured the originals in small roles whereas it was rightfully recognized that Firebrand's name was generic enough there was no need to actually make him a legacy character.

The new Sargon and Ibis I found especially annoying as it was part of a mini-series of one-shots that were to help set up the new Doctor Fate. It's overkill. DC's gone too much the legacy route of the characters. I'd rather either see the originals or actual new concepts. Out of all the legacies introduced the last couple of years, the only one that has struck me as interesting and enjoyable is the Ryan Choi Atom, but a big part of that is probably the power of Gail Simone's writing. And that Ray Palmer wasn't put in a doggie body bag to make room for him.
>
> - Sweep

Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman



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Zazu




> I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it?

Kate is still a legacy character because her grandparents are Iron Monroe and Phantom Lady.

From Wiki: "Recently Spencer fought her father, a minor league supervillain who erroneously claimed to be the son of Al Pratt - the Golden Age Atom. Kate is in fact the granddaughter of Phantom Lady and Iron Munro. Al Pratt allowed Sandra Knight (the Phantom Lady) to use his contact information in order to enter a home for unwed mothers, which led to the mix-up."


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Sweep Secondhand




> > > I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it? And I found it ridiculous to kill off Judomaster, Ibis, Dr. Fate, and Sargon only to be replaced. Why create another Judomaster to begin with? Was there any real story that could be told with a replacement character that couldn't have been told with the original? There's only so many things you can do with a character called Judomaster than almost anything come up with is going to be a cheap copy. At least the original has some context and history to build upon.
> > >
> > If you think this is bad, just look at what happend to the Freedom Fighters. They killed off three characters, two of which were relativly new and undeveloped, in the span of only a page or two just to kick off Infinite Crapfest. Before their bodies are even cold they have way to close for comfort replacements for all of them. Tommy Jagger would have made a decent new Judomaster and his ties with Checkmate help the character. I think they came up with this new one just to make the character a Meta. Look at Tom-Cat. I still say that is one completely uneccisary character but thank God they haven't killed off Wildcat just to have him replaced by that!
>
> Oh, I agree. One of the things I liked about the second generation Freedom Fighter characters the Ray, Black Condor, Damage (who was the modern version of the Human Bomb), and Firebrand (who was senselessly killed off by Johns further back) was that the originals were not sacrificed to make way for the new ones. The Ray, Black Condor, and Damage featured the originals in small roles whereas it was rightfully recognized that Firebrand's name was generic enough there was no need to actually make him a legacy character.
>
> The new Sargon and Ibis I found especially annoying as it was part of a mini-series of one-shots that were to help set up the new Doctor Fate. It's overkill. DC's gone too much the legacy route of the characters. I'd rather either see the originals or actual new concepts. Out of all the legacies introduced the last couple of years, the only one that has struck me as interesting and enjoyable is the Ryan Choi Atom, but a big part of that is probably the power of Gail Simone's writing. And that Ray Palmer wasn't put in a doggie body bag to make room for him.
> >
> > - Sweep
>
> Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman
>

So far I think the best example of multi-generational heros operating together has to be Rick and Rex Tyler. I thought the deal with Rick being able to confer with his father at zero point or whatever they called it was great. Now that Rex is completely back, I think it's great to see him pop up from time to time in a support role. With all the legacies, time travel, and immortal villians the JSA has to cope with, having a few original members around to provide information on the history is a must.

- Sweep


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zvelf




> > > The character is OK but it just seems like they could have done a whole lot more with another true legacy character. Having a distant relative of FDR join the team just doesn't cut it with me when there are so many other characters that are true JSA/ASS legacies that could be developed instead.
> >
> > I am curious who these “many other” legacies are that you have in mind and are not in the book at present?
> >
>
> Well for startes you could count any member of the All Star Squadron that has not been shown to have a legacy so far. Any of these characters would be preferable to a legacy related to FDR. To answer your question more precisely though, just off the top of my head I can think of:
>
> Air Wave, JR (aka Masar) - presumed dead but could be revived.
> Brain Wave, JR
> The Guardian (Jim Harper clone)
> Manhunter (Kate Spencer, daughter Golden Age Atom)
> Judomaster (Tommy Jagger, son of the original, why create another?)
> Zatara (Zachary Zatara)
> Dr. Fate (new Kent Nelson)
> Ibis (Danny Khalifa)
> STRIPE (Pat Dugan's son)
> Sargon the Sorcerer (David Sargant)
>
> I am sure there are lots more but that's nine right there that would be better qualified as legacy characters than an FDR relative.
>
> - Sweep


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Talezite




> > > > I think the Manhunter's link was revealed as a lie wasn't it? And I found it ridiculous to kill off Judomaster, Ibis, Dr. Fate, and Sargon only to be replaced. Why create another Judomaster to begin with? Was there any real story that could be told with a replacement character that couldn't have been told with the original? There's only so many things you can do with a character called Judomaster than almost anything come up with is going to be a cheap copy. At least the original has some context and history to build upon.
> > > >
> > > If you think this is bad, just look at what happend to the Freedom Fighters. They killed off three characters, two of which were relativly new and undeveloped, in the span of only a page or two just to kick off Infinite Crapfest. Before their bodies are even cold they have way to close for comfort replacements for all of them. Tommy Jagger would have made a decent new Judomaster and his ties with Checkmate help the character. I think they came up with this new one just to make the character a Meta. Look at Tom-Cat. I still say that is one completely uneccisary character but thank God they haven't killed off Wildcat just to have him replaced by that!
> >
> > Oh, I agree. One of the things I liked about the second generation Freedom Fighter characters the Ray, Black Condor, Damage (who was the modern version of the Human Bomb), and Firebrand (who was senselessly killed off by Johns further back) was that the originals were not sacrificed to make way for the new ones. The Ray, Black Condor, and Damage featured the originals in small roles whereas it was rightfully recognized that Firebrand's name was generic enough there was no need to actually make him a legacy character.
> >
> > The new Sargon and Ibis I found especially annoying as it was part of a mini-series of one-shots that were to help set up the new Doctor Fate. It's overkill. DC's gone too much the legacy route of the characters. I'd rather either see the originals or actual new concepts. Out of all the legacies introduced the last couple of years, the only one that has struck me as interesting and enjoyable is the Ryan Choi Atom, but a big part of that is probably the power of Gail Simone's writing. And that Ray Palmer wasn't put in a doggie body bag to make room for him.
> > >
> > > - Sweep
> >
> > Golden-age hero and villain encyclopedia: www.geocities.com/cash_gorman
> >
>
> So far I think the best example of multi-generational heros operating together has to be Rick and Rex Tyler. I thought the deal with Rick being able to confer with his father at zero point or whatever they called it was great. Now that Rex is completely back, I think it's great to see him pop up from time to time in a support role. With all the legacies, time travel, and immortal villians the JSA has to cope with, having a few original members around to provide information on the history is a must.
>
> - Sweep


Whoops I meant JSA 12 not 13! lol It apparently fine as we all talked about it anyways. Its true I sometimes know how to count ;\) That said I can't wait for JSA 13. As always good reading to you all.


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