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daywing




In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.

The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?


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Sweep Secondhand




> In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
>
> The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?


I believe DC did as good a job with COIE as they could do given the task. The problem is they didn't just stop there. Had they gotten to the end of COIE and said "here's where we are and we fit in as much as we could. Now we will just move forward as is." that would have been fine. Instead they found 20 different ways to supposedly explain or improve things that only made the situation worse. That is up to and certainly including Infinite Crapfest. I would have preferred that DC never combined the multiverses in the first place. Once they did it though I was OK with moving forward. Now that they have spent the better part of 14 years unravaling the one half way decent job they did with COIE, I say put it back the way it was for good or give up already!

- Sweep


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Talezite




> > In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
> >
> > The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?
>
>
> I believe DC did as good a job with COIE as they could do given the task. The problem is they didn't just stop there. Had they gotten to the end of COIE and said "here's where we are and we fit in as much as we could. Now we will just move forward as is." that would have been fine. Instead they found 20 different ways to supposedly explain or improve things that only made the situation worse. That is up to and certainly including Infinite Crapfest. I would have preferred that DC never combined the multiverses in the first place. Once they did it though I was OK with moving forward. Now that they have spent the better part of 14 years unravaling the one half way decent job they did with COIE, I say put it back the way it was for good or give up already!
>
> - Sweep


The way I see things change is part of all ongoing stories and comics always seem to have an interesting history. Its a shared universe (as in there are many writers) and with that comes varied takes on characters and the past. Personally I was good with DC moving forward after the original COIE. It was then (I want to say 86) that brought me from being being regular marvel and comico reader to including DC. I liked the one Earth for a long time but also like the concept of multiple dimensions and Earths.I read some early JLA issues that had the JSA in it so I was familar with the multiple Earth (dimension) concept. I also read those oversized comics *famous first editions* like Flash comics number 1 and that showed me DCs long reaching history. (anyone remember those? ;\) It seems to me now that they are fully embracing all the dimensions again (show in 52, Countdown,etc) and I am curious and excited to see where this all leads. To answer the question should the original Earth 2 come back I say lets see where this story takes us ;\) As always good reading to you all.


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wonder women




does this mean katar the alien hawkman never came to the new earth?

> > > In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
> > >
> > > The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?
> >
> >
> > I believe DC did as good a job with COIE as they could do given the task. The problem is they didn't just stop there. Had they gotten to the end of COIE and said "here's where we are and we fit in as much as we could. Now we will just move forward as is." that would have been fine. Instead they found 20 different ways to supposedly explain or improve things that only made the situation worse. That is up to and certainly including Infinite Crapfest. I would have preferred that DC never combined the multiverses in the first place. Once they did it though I was OK with moving forward. Now that they have spent the better part of 14 years unravaling the one half way decent job they did with COIE, I say put it back the way it was for good or give up already!
> >
> > - Sweep
>
>
> The way I see things change is part of all ongoing stories and comics always seem to have an interesting history. Its a shared universe (as in there are many writers) and with that comes varied takes on characters and the past. Personally I was good with DC moving forward after the original COIE. It was then (I want to say 86) that brought me from being being regular marvel and comico reader to including DC. I liked the one Earth for a long time but also like the concept of multiple dimensions and Earths.I read some early JLA issues that had the JSA in it so I was familar with the multiple Earth (dimension) concept. I also read those oversized comics *famous first editions* like Flash comics number 1 and that showed me DCs long reaching history. (anyone remember those? ;\) It seems to me now that they are fully embracing all the dimensions again (show in 52, Countdown,etc) and I am curious and excited to see where this all leads. To answer the question should the original Earth 2 come back I say lets see where this story takes us ;\) As always good reading to you all.


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Jon Clark




> In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
>
> The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?

I loved Earth-2 back in the Pre-Crisis days, but I doubt you could get it back the way it was. Outside of Roy Thomas most writers couldn't keep the Earth-2 history straight when it wasn't intermingled with a shared Earth, I doubt anyone could reconstruct it now that it has been "confused" by twenty-two years of redefined stories.

If they told us they were returning to the original Earth-2, I doubt it would look much different than what we will be getting with the new one anyway. Geoff or whoever was writing would keep the bits of Earth-2 he remembered fondly and either deliberately or through faulty memory rewrite the rest. I mean how long would it take for a modern writer to introduce Robinson's non-Earth2 Starman history or Sandman Mystery Theater based on the faulty assumption these were how it happened originally (or even becuase they were better takes than the original stories).

And that's not necessarily a criticism or a bad thing. Guys like Roy Thomas or Kurt Busiek who seem to remember every panel in every comic they read decades ago are few in number. Better to state upfront "this isn't your father's Earth-2" than deal with us fans who know "that isn't how it REALLY happened in issue #XX".

Personally I wish they would just remove some of the dead weight in the modern DCU by shifting characters back into the multiverse. Let Earth-2 have a retired version of the Trinity (among other JSA-ers) and tell stories there about the next generation (the old Infinitors plus a few new ones) on a world where they are the major heroes now. Give the fans of Ted Kord or Captain Atom a bone and set an on going series on Earth-4 where they are the stars and no one ever heard of Batman, Superman or any Flash. But if they do i'd rather the series start these world as blank slates where there is no continuity for the characters until a story ON THAT WORLD is told about them.







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TJ Burns




> does this mean katar the alien hawkman never came to the new earth?

Near as I can tell, Hawkworld's still in continuity. That said, there's not worlds of evidence either way since Infinite Crisis.


TJB


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Talezite




> > In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
> >
> > The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?
>
> I loved Earth-2 back in the Pre-Crisis days, but I doubt you could get it back the way it was. Outside of Roy Thomas most writers couldn't keep the Earth-2 history straight when it wasn't intermingled with a shared Earth, I doubt anyone could reconstruct it now that it has been "confused" by twenty-two years of redefined stories.
>
> If they told us they were returning to the original Earth-2, I doubt it would look much different than what we will be getting with the new one anyway. Geoff or whoever was writing would keep the bits of Earth-2 he remembered fondly and either deliberately or through faulty memory rewrite the rest. I mean how long would it take for a modern writer to introduce Robinson's non-Earth2 Starman history or Sandman Mystery Theater based on the faulty assumption these were how it happened originally (or even becuase they were better takes than the original stories).
>
> And that's not necessarily a criticism or a bad thing. Guys like Roy Thomas or Kurt Busiek who seem to remember every panel in every comic they read decades ago are few in number. Better to state upfront "this isn't your father's Earth-2" than deal with us fans who know "that isn't how it REALLY happened in issue #XX".
>
> Personally I wish they would just remove some of the dead weight in the modern DCU by shifting characters back into the multiverse. Let Earth-2 have a retired version of the Trinity (among other JSA-ers) and tell stories there about the next generation (the old Infinitors plus a few new ones) on a world where they are the major heroes now. Give the fans of Ted Kord or Captain Atom a bone and set an on going series on Earth-4 where they are the stars and no one ever heard of Batman, Superman or any Flash. But if they do i'd rather the series start these world as blank slates where there is no continuity for the characters until a story ON THAT WORLD is told about them.

These are all great points! I would look forward to any stories set on Earth 4 (Charleton comics earth) for sure ;\) As always good reading to you all.
>
>
>
>
>


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gunwitch31




> > In the early days of the new DCU after COIE, things were quite well done in the way the new combined DCU were potrayed. Sadly over the years things went a little haywire (see Donna Troy, Hawkman and Supergirl a little). It could not be helped though and I am sure it was not intentional. Now I really feel that after FC, we should see the return of the original multiverse. Not the new one after IC but the actual one before COIE. I really would not mind reading about different sets of heroes in different Earths. Sort of reading about DCu at one time and then Dark Hourse in another and then Wildstorm. With good writing it can be interesting and we can have the occasional crossovers.
> >
> > The only thing is how to explain the continuity from 1985 till now when everyone was in one Earth when so many heroes lives affected others? Any thoughts there?
>
>
> I believe DC did as good a job with COIE as they could do given the task. The problem is they didn't just stop there. Had they gotten to the end of COIE and said "here's where we are and we fit in as much as we could. Now we will just move forward as is." that would have been fine. Instead they found 20 different ways to supposedly explain or improve things that only made the situation worse. That is up to and certainly including Infinite Crapfest. I would have preferred that DC never combined the multiverses in the first place. Once they did it though I was OK with moving forward. Now that they have spent the better part of 14 years unravaling the one half way decent job they did with COIE, I say put it back the way it was for good or give up already!
>

Before the Crisis in '85 I had a perfect grasp on the multiverse. The changes that the Crisis brought really caught me off guard and I wasn't the least bit pleased with the changes they made to specific characters like Superman. However, the idea that now the JSA had paved the way for the JLA on the same earth kind of made more sense and opened up a world of possibilities. Although I think a lot of the possibilities were never explored to their full potential.

For whatever reasons, I had a very difficult time hanging on to comics, both Marvel and DC, throughout the late 80's and early 90's with brief highlights along the way. Now we've come full circle. We found out there is an entire (well 52 at least) multiverse again. And the current shared single universe is in danger of becoming ever darker in the pages of Final Crisis. I'm sure, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, this will be a good story. It's the ramifications afterwards that worry me so much. I've spent a good 20 years investing in this current universe. Part of me would hate to see it wiped off the map. But there is a part of me that wonders if it might not just work for the better to go back to separate earths, separate universes.

Although DC has been producing some top-notch stories these last few years, it seems to be done at the expense of a lot of once great ideas and characters. We've had a number of deaths since this all started back in Identity Crisis. We've seen things grow steadily darker, which for the villains isn't a bad thing, I like my villains dark. But it seems like we are seeing some of the heroes compromised as well. Maybe this makes for good sales, better stories, or a better way of competing with Marvel and holding on to readers that inevitably become jaded with the passage of years. But I'm not so sure it's for the best.

I know one thing. If I pick up an older comic, I do miss how bright things seemed, how good natured it was. Is it possible to do comics that are told well and maturely but at the same time draw a clear distinction between good and evil and without too much "serious-realism"?

If I had my way, yes, we'd see a comic for Captain Marvel, Bulletman, Spysmasher, and the Marvel Family. We'd see one that showcased the Charlton heroes; Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, Peacemaker. There would be an Earth-2 where the JSA & Infinity dwelled and were the primary heroes. And we'd see an earth where the Justice League and Teen Titans were still bright strong forces for good that haven't suffered from betrayals, affairs, or deaths. And finally, we'd still have this current Earth, the one that seems increasingly dark and brutal shared by all the heroes and villains that ever were.

I don't think DC should wipe out the recreated universe. I think if they were smart they would keep it as a back up plan, and if they want to go the route of Wildstorm and wreck the current universe, they still have good, untouched universes to fall back on.

~D


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randy77tx




Originally, I hated COIE. I loved Earth-2, and it was taken from me. However, I could see DC's point in a single universe, a single shared world. So, I said goodbye to E2 and moved on. Then it all started falling apart. All that COIE was supposed to have helped establish has been torn apart. For example, there are probably more duplicates now than when there were parallel worlds. And continuity was constantly being re-written. Wonder Woman is a founding member of the JLA. Then she isn't. Now she is again. Characters came along to replace characters only to be replaced by the original. No E2 Wonder Woman, enter Fury, enter Miss America, enter Hippoltya.

The difference between now and then is that back in the 60s - 80s, you had Thomas, Schwartz, Bridwell who knew the continuity (not saying they were perfect) and you saw these editor's notes. No one plays continuity cop anymore.

Personally, I'd be happy with one earth, one universe. I just wish DC would do a concise history/timeline or who's who and update it regularly.


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Superman's Pal




> > does this mean katar the alien hawkman never came to the new earth?
>
> Near as I can tell, Hawkworld's still in continuity. That said, there's not worlds of evidence either way since Infinite Crisis.

In "Rann-Thanagar Holy War #1" Carter is able to pass for a Thanagarian (and still had dark hair) so presumably he's still merged with Katar.





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Mikel Midnight




> Originally, I hated COIE. I loved Earth-2, and it was taken from me. However, I could see DC's point in a single universe, a single shared world. So, I said goodbye to E2 and moved on. Then it all started falling apart. All that COIE was supposed to have helped establish has been torn apart. For example, there are probably more duplicates now than when there were parallel worlds. And continuity was constantly being re-written.

That's exactly where I stand. I missed the old multiverse ... but I was content with the unitary universe. But it turned out to be even more complex and messy then the original, so what was the point?

> Wonder Woman is a founding member of the JLA. Then she isn't. Now she is again. Characters came along to replace characters only to be replaced by the original. No E2 Wonder Woman, enter Fury, enter Miss America, enter Hippoltya.

What bothers me most about this whole affair is that the solution to replacing the original Diana is actually fairly simple, but they keep approaching it in incredibly convoluted ways.



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Beowulf




> > > does this mean katar the alien hawkman never came to the new earth?
>
> Near as I can tell, Hawkworld's still in continuity. That said, there's not worlds of evidence either way since Infinite Crisis.

In "Rann-Thanagar Holy War #1" Carter is able to pass for a Thanagarian (and still had dark hair) so presumably he's still merged with Katar.




Any human can pass as Thanagarian.


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TJ Burns




> > > > does this mean katar the alien hawkman never came to the new earth?
>
> Near as I can tell, Hawkworld's still in continuity. That said, there's not worlds of evidence either way since Infinite Crisis.

In "Rann-Thanagar Holy War #1" Carter is able to pass for a Thanagarian (and still had dark hair) so presumably he's still merged with Katar.



>
> Any human can pass as Thanagarian.

To humans. Apparently, Thanagarians have highly defined enough senses that they can smell the difference, as Shayera stated in Johns' Hawkman run. (Carter, however, smells like Katar in those issues.)


TJB


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