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Attok12




Not interested. I liked the New Warriors back in the day, but now....eh. And Marvel has been batting waaaaaay below average when it comes to introducing new characters (see Avengers: The Initiative, this new New Warriors book, and other Marvel titles for the past few years). Not only that, but the Grey Gargoyle once again gets treated like a pansy, as he did in CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE. *rhe*

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=106667


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Tiger Shark




...and I hardly think Pierre would be afraid, as he's shown to be here, of a few...pansies like these NW.

He's fought Thor, IM, and the Avengers to a standstill, and has some fairly awesome powers...and yet, here again, we see Marvel treating its classic villains like mindless cannon fodder.

A Big No Thanks to this book.


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Thatguy




> ...and I hardly think Pierre would be afraid, as he's shown to be here, of a few...pansies like these NW.
>
> He's fought Thor, IM, and the Avengers to a standstill, and has some fairly awesome powers...and yet, here again, we see Marvel treating its classic villains like mindless cannon fodder.

I wish people would stop reading oiff past resumes like it actually means a damn thing. Characters grow, standards change. Grey Gargoyle has been pretty much the same, while the world around him has grown and changed. It's only natural the new guys would surpass him.

And, it's worth noting that there's evidence that the Warriors aren't new guys at all. So it's not rookies taking him down.


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spiderprince




> ...and I hardly think Pierre would be afraid, as he's shown to be here, of a few...pansies like these NW.
>
> He's fought Thor, IM, and the Avengers to a standstill, and has some fairly awesome powers...and yet, here again, we see Marvel treating its classic villains like mindless cannon fodder.
>
> A Big No Thanks to this book.

Actually I didn't read it as GG being scared cause there was a giant girl in front of him. From the last panel on the previous page the art inclines me to think that this is more of something to do with telepathy.


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Tiger Shark




..is it simply because the writers need a pantsy, and pull him out of the villain pool the same way they constantly do with the Rhino, Mr. Hyde, the Wrecker, the Shocker, and others?

Thor is dead---he hasn't progressed. Cap is dead--he hasn't progressed. Spider Woman has become a weepy, hand-wringing mess--this is progression? Spider Man's web has become so tangled no one really knows what the hell is going on with the character anymore, and fewer even care. Monica Rambeau/Pulsar has gone from an intelligent, disciplined, emotionaly-mature adult woman to a nasty black urban stereotype who spouts idiotic remarks. That's progress to you? Daredevil has been completely flummoxed by life itself (ah, the horror, the horror) for years now.

And I could go on about the number of 'classic' (or near-classic, at the very least, established) characters that have become utter bores or have been badly mishandled by amatuers: including Gambit, for instance, Machine Man, and Storm (thankfully, Carey and Brubaker have done wonders recently for Polaris, Rogue, and Mystique, and to a lesser degree, to Ice Man, Havok, and Cable).

IM has become a monster and almost a god in terms of power, and is thus no longer interesting, at least to me.

Reed and Hank Pym let many of us down during CW--is that character progression? Maybe to you, it is. To me, it's just laziness on the parts of the writers, which alter these classic character's personalities to fit their stilted storylines. But Pym's a whack-job, so what does it matter what's done with or to him--Right?

The Grey Gargoyle is no slouch---he has a very deadly power, and one he can easily use on enemies. IF he has'nt devloped in the manner in which you suggest, it's because....

....dragging him in and out of books in a few panels to get a story going is no way to show respect for such a character.

Leap Frog I can see being used this way, and perhaps the Gibbon or the Grizzly, or even the Vulture in a worse-case scenario, but not the GG, not Electro, not the Living Laser, Avalanche, Spiral, Vertigo, the Cobra, the Unicorn, or characters of that caliber.






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Thatguy




All the characters you've listed have shown development. They've grown as characters.

Grey Gargoyle hasn't. His motivation has remained weak and dated, and sans a revamp his power isn't that impressive. After 10 years of being around, people ought to know not to allow Gargoyle to touch them, and to fight him at a distance. It's not rocket science.

The rookies today ought to at least be on the level of Iron Man, Thor et all when they all started out. That's the level Gargoyle's stayed on and without a hook, will stay on.


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Attok12




....if Marvel can take the time to update/revitalize their heroes, then they can do the same to their villains. I'm sure, under the right writer, the Grey Gargoyle can come up with brilliant ideas to use his power in some new way that will take the heros off-guard. But then, most Marvel writers don't bother with charcters like the Grey Gargoyle, unless they are used as cannon fodder (unless it's their golden boys like Hydra, the Wrecker and his Wrecking Crew, Mr. Hyde, and the Rhino).


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Tiger Shark




...in most cases at least?

OF COURSE they receive more 'development' than the GG, who hasn't been treated as intelligent since Stern's Avengers 20 years ago.

I'm not going to go again into the full argument as to why Sabertooth is the Sabertooth we know today, while the Puma, the Mongoose, Feral, and other animal-based characters are still 2nd-tier characters at best and 5th-rate nobodies at worst.

Look at the Radioactive Man today: if not for Fabian N, he'd be a GG-level 'nobody' in your book, one who 'never learned to creatively use his powers.' Instead, FH and Ellis have developed him into a 'viable character' for present-day readers---merely by taking him up and treating him as less than a stooge.

Creator enthusiasm for a particular character is Everything.

Sorry, for me, Pulsar has gone backwards, and so have several of the others, those that aren't corpses.


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Piotr W.




> The rookies today ought to at least be on the level of Iron Man, Thor et all when they all started out. That's the level Gargoyle's stayed on and without a hook, will stay on.

But by that logic, that New Warriors character shouldn't have been able to defeat Gargoyle so easily. You assume she should be at the level that Thor was in his beginnings? Well, Thor had hard time defeating Gargoyle during their first encounter. By your logic, Wondra should have similar amount of trouble. But she defeats him with apparent ease.

I'm not saying the Gargoyle should be a Magneto level threat, but come on... He's veteran villain, he should not run from a single hero like that.


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Thatguy




> > The rookies today ought to at least be on the level of Iron Man, Thor et all when they all started out. That's the level Gargoyle's stayed on and without a hook, will stay on.
>
> But by that logic, that New Warriors character shouldn't have been able to defeat Gargoyle so easily. You assume she should be at the level that Thor was in his beginnings? Well, Thor had hard time defeating Gargoyle during their first encounter. By your logic, Wondra should have similar amount of trouble. But she defeats him with apparent ease.

First encounter, when Gargoyle was a new threat. These days, anyone with half a brain ought to know his powers and abilities and be able to counter them.
>
> I'm not saying the Gargoyle should be a Magneto level threat, but come on... He's veteran villain, he should not run from a single hero like that.

He's a vet that's gotten his butt kicked how many times? He has no new tricks, no new tactics. IMO, he's just fallen behind the curve.


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Tiger Shark




...just as we see today--and have seen since the early 90s--with 80% of Marvel's criminal antagonists, which represents hundreds, if not thousands, of bad guys.

It has nothing to do with the inherent value or powers of the GG. He's not Leap Frog. Thank God you're not a Marvel writer. 'The Griffin? He's just a big ugly cat with wings, and totally absurd!'

The Jester never had any super powers, but was a clever, intelligent, persistent, and very viable DD villain for decades.

Then the era of writer for enthusiasm/imagination for the Jester passed, and the poor Jester found himself yanked out as cannonfodder, which ended with CW, if in fact that was the first Jester and not the second.




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Dr. Shallot




> ....if Marvel can take the time to update/revitalize their heroes, then they can do the same to their villains. I'm sure, under the right writer, the Grey Gargoyle can come up with brilliant ideas to use his power in some new way that will take the heros off-guard. But then, most Marvel writers don't bother with charcters like the Grey Gargoyle, unless they are used as cannon fodder (unless it's their golden boys like Hydra, the Wrecker and his Wrecking Crew, Mr. Hyde, and the Rhino).

I agree that it only takes a creative writer to make an old villain interesting again.

However, I disagree with the Rhino being a current golden boy. In a recent Sensational Spider-man arc he gave Spidey a good thrashing...off-panel. That wasn't too irritating because the main point of the arc was to deal with the women in his life and how they reacted to this situation. Later in the arc the Black Cat encountered a drunken Rhino and convinced him to rethink his current status. Apparently the point was lost because from what I've heard he then got punked by the Punisher rather easily. Rhino's seen better days.
Mr. Hyde may be used to good affect in the current Sensational arc, that remains to be seen. The wrecking crew seems to be the bad guys of choice when a writer needs some tough foes that never seem to win. And I agree about Hydra, they are all over the place and get tiresome quickly. I do like how Brubaker and Fraction are using them in Iron Fist though.

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Thatguy




> ...just as we see today--and have seen since the early 90s--with 80% of Marvel's criminal antagonists, which represents hundreds, if not thousands, of bad guys.
>
> It has nothing to do with the inherent value or powers of the GG. He's not Leap Frog. Thank God you're not a Marvel writer. 'The Griffin? He's just a big ugly cat with wings, and totally absurd!'

The irony's a little too much for me, so read the below and say that, eh?

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1830151/5/

My position stands, Grey Gargoyle's a Silver Age guy in the modern world. Until writers do something with him to catch him up with the rest of the class, cannon fodder is all he's good for. It's hardly the end. Johns redeemed the Rogues. Who would have thought that possible following Underworld Unleashed?


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Piotr W.




... that we didn't see Gargoyle trying to put up a fight, with Wondra just countering his powers.

What we saw in the preview is Gargoyle running around like some Z-list villain and being too scared to defend himself.

Seriously, it seemed that Wondra had less trouble with him than Thor when they last met!

And if it comes to having butt kicked... How many times has Dr Doom been defeated? Yet he's still treated as a serious threat.


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Tiger Shark




....working with a criminal teleporter, say, Spiral (or, say, Diablo), the GG and Spiral teleport into the Oval Office, the GG taps Bush on the neck from behind, and they teleport out, either with the stone Bush statue, or leaving it behind to be found by the secret service--or perhaps first crushing it into rubble.

They might do this on their own, but more likely, as a huge terrorist attack on the country or the West itself by a new Masters of Evil.

Bingo. The GG has just been 'intelligently used.' ThatGuy speaks as if the GG's limited powers in themselves make him a patsy. Most heroes and criminals have limited powers.

And speaking of Diablo, Kurt made great creative use of him during his Avengers run.

Just because a villain was used in the Silver Age...ah, thinking they're useless is most likely a prejudice of 'those who weren't there then.'

And that does make a difference, because to newer readers who first encounter Diablo in an FF Essentials volume, OF COURSE he seems 'dated' and 'older.' They're coming at him from an entirely different perspective than readers are who were 'there then' and grew with him, the GG, and a zillion other good and bad guys and gals.


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Tiger Shark




...we've only seen a few pages so far. But chances are we're seeing everything we need to see concerning this issue.




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Thatguy




> ....working with a criminal teleporter, say, Spiral (or, say, Diablo), the GG and Spiral teleport into the Oval Office, the GG taps Bush on the neck from behind, and they teleport out, either with the stone Bush statue, or leaving it behind to be found by the secret service--or perhaps first crushing it into rubble.
>
> They might do this on their own, but more likely, as a huge terrorist attack on the country or the West itself by a new Masters of Evil.
>
> Bingo. The GG has just been 'intelligently used.' ThatGuy speaks as if the GG's limited powers in themselves make him a patsy. Most heroes and criminals have limited powers.
>
> And speaking of Diablo, Kurt made great creative use of him during his Avengers run.
>
> Just because a villain was used in the Silver Age...ah, thinking they're useless is most likely a prejudice of 'those who weren't there then.'

It's not that he was created in the Silver Age. Rather, it's that he hasn't changed in power, motivation, accomplishments and personality since then. That equals patsy, in my book.


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Attok12




The Jester that was will during Civil War was the second one who first appeared during that Acts of Vengeance Cloak & Dagger crossover issue. The original guy is still retired as far as I know.


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Tiger Shark




...the GG posed as a successful sculptor who specialized in life-size female figures? Well, it turned out to be the GG freezing women into stautues and selling them. Not a bad twist on the GG formula, I thought. And fairly creative for a single-issue story.

About the same time, the Radioactive Man took a job as a regular (non-green) human being at the huge science-based corporation so he could use their resources to conduct his own experiments. That made sense to me; no reason that he necessarily has to be green, toting a glue gun, and wearing a mini-tunic.

Over the years, we've seen many, many criminals used creatively and imaginatively, and also the opposite: some have been ruined by 'progress,' like the Plant Man and Black Tom.

I see no reason why the GG can't fly around in his costume causing havok; maybe he could have the Fixer make him invisible when he wants to be, so that he can sneak up on those he wants to turn to stone.

I belive he'd make an excellent addition to any new Masters of Evil.


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Tiger Shark




I still have my Battle Book here with me, and you're right. Boy, am I relieved. Thanks, A12.


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Attok12




Those were nice IRON MAN issues, and they were just a few issues prior to the big Madame Masque shooting in #238.


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CC




I gotta admit, the art is very nice. But C'mon, GG just got his butt kicked by Spiderwoman (who's no where near his class)and now newbies are making him run Scared when he just beat the Thing a couple years (weeks ago marvel time)

But this is standard, writers try to make characters good or bad seem one way or another by belittling someone else. In this case it's GG, Michael slaughtered Alpha Flight in one panel. In the Initiative Preview we hear how invulnerable the enemy is from Ms Marvel, Ares, and the Avengers then that no-name drops him with one pop.

Meanwhile, experienced 'nita starts a fight with an exploding guy next to a playground and a school bus daring him to explode. Someone should know that it's possible to show one side as competent without making the other side look like they just had lobotomies. I'm more impressed when a capable foe is overwhelmed more than a scared pussycat gets mauled.


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CC





> My position stands, Grey Gargoyle's a Silver Age guy in the modern world. Until writers do something with him to catch him up with the rest of the class, cannon fodder is all he's good for. It's hardly the end. Johns redeemed the Rogues. Who would have thought that possible following Underworld Unleashed?

That's not an arguement I can support. Because he hasn't been developed much in 20 years he's cannon fodder? this guy used to take on the Avengers. Character developement doesn't equivicate to total incompetance (that's MY job! \:\) )


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Piotr W.




... I MIGHT agree that Gargoyle can be shown as someone a little behind the times. And I have no problem with the idea that a new hero is able to defeat him. The problem lies in the way it was shown...

If Gargoyle would put up a fight and Wondra would be able to defeat him, pointing out how predicticable he is... well, that would be OK. It would show Wondra as competent hero, someone who "does the homework" when it comes to well-known villains.

But we were shown NO actual fight in the preview... Gargoyle came off as complete coward and amateur. I just don't buy it.

Though, to be honest - I consider Gargoyle's treatment a small issue. I think that New Warriors new book seems interesting and I possibly would buy it (if I had an actual chance of buying it in my country). But I agree that Gargoyle wasn't shown in appropriate way - and that it's part of current trend in Marvel. Trend of disrespecting Marvel's older villains...


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Piotr W.




> Someone should know that it's possible to show one side as competent without making the other side look like they just had lobotomies. I'm more impressed when a capable foe is overwhelmed more than a scared pussycat gets mauled.

Bravo! That's EXACTLY what I was thinking, too.


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Thatguy




> ...the GG posed as a successful sculptor who specialized in life-size female figures? Well, it turned out to be the GG freezing women into stautues and selling them. Not a bad twist on the GG formula, I thought. And fairly creative for a single-issue story.

Emphasize being a single story. Unless you wanna go the creepy Purple Man route, there isn't much potential there.
>
> About the same time, the Radioactive Man took a job as a regular (non-green) human being at the huge science-based corporation so he could use their resources to conduct his own experiments. That made sense to me; no reason that he necessarily has to be green, toting a glue gun, and wearing a mini-tunic.

Radioactive Man never had a glue gun. You're thinking of someone else ;\)
>
> Over the years, we've seen many, many criminals used creatively and imaginatively, and also the opposite: some have been ruined by 'progress,' like the Plant Man and Black Tom.
>
> I see no reason why the GG can't fly around in his costume causing havok; maybe he could have the Fixer make him invisible when he wants to be, so that he can sneak up on those he wants to turn to stone.

You seem to mistake formidable with growth. There's a difference. Until GG gets some growth as a character, cannod fodder is the best he deserves.
>
> I belive he'd make an excellent addition to any new Masters of Evil.

As muscle, maybe. On his own, much less so.


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Dr. Shallot




I too am tiring from the obligatory "look, I'm an obscure villain, now punch me out" routine that writers employ to make readers think that they don't ignore past continuity. They might as well create a new villain if the only purpose is to get clocked.

Although I'm not saying it's needed, but in this era of secondary mutations and enhanced powers for every other character around, would it not be unreasonable to have the Grey Gargoyle perhaps display some sort of control over granite itself? Maybe use chunks of stone as projectiles? I'm not saying turn him into Terrax, but increasing his skillset, IMO, would only be beneficial to the character.

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Tiger Shark




...during his time with the Masters of Evil incarnations 1 & 2/3 (since Klaw led the third MOE rather than Ultron), the Radioactive Man did indeed carry and use a glue gun, which emitted a kind of glue-ish white plaster that was fairly strong and gave the Avengers a run for their money.

He may have even utilized it as late as the Klaw-led MOE excusion in Rutland, Vermont, when the MOE attacked the Avengers and was stopped by the Lady Liberators. In fact, he may have used it during Egghead's MOE.

In this cover from Avengers 55, you see him holding the gun; on the cover of 54, you see Giant Man bound in the substance. If anyone has any panels from inside the books further showing the gun and its discharge, please post.

As far as the GG sculptor story, MOST stories at that time were, thankfully, one-shots. There were longer stories only occasionally. So your criticism holds no water on that particular ground.


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Thatguy




> ...during his time with the Masters of Evil incarnations 1 & 2/3 (since Klaw led the third MOE rather than Ultron), the Radioactive Man did indeed carry and use a glue gun, which emitted a kind of glue-ish white plaster that was fairly strong and gave the Avengers a run for their money.
>
> He may have even utilized it as late as the Klaw-led MOE excusion in Rutland, Vermont, when the MOE attacked the Avengers and was stopped by the Lady Liberators. In fact, he may have used it during Egghead's MOE.

He hasn't used it in decades, might tell you somethin' ;\)
>
> In this cover from Avengers 55, you see him holding the gun; on the cover of 54, you see Giant Man bound in the substance. If anyone has any panels from inside the books further showing the gun and its discharge, please post.
>
> As far as the GG sculptor story, MOST stories at that time were, thankfully, one-shots. There were longer stories only occasionally. So your criticism holds no water on that particular ground.

Amazing how the bulk of your post veers away from the actual discussion to whether or not GG is useless or not. Oneshot stories were the deal then, but not oneshot motivations. Turning women into statues for profit, well...you can only tell that story twice, at most, before it gets old.


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Tiger Shark




My posts swerve away from that point because to me it's a non-issue: it's an issue for you.

I don't see any reason to bend over backwards to defend him. And your remark was itself a cheap shot: you were proven wrong, period.

You seem to think that the GG can only be used physically, as someone who can reach out and turn someone else to stone. Not so at all.

That's like saying Moonstone, the Grim Reaper, the Mad Thinker, the Radioactive Man, the Space Phantom, the Jester, the Puppet Master, the Owl, Llyra, the Red Skull, Loki, the Wingless Wizard, or Mystique are limited in their scheming and evil ways by their super powers.

No, they're intelligent individuals, and much of their allure, success, tenacity, and skill comes not from their powers but from their zealous sociopathic/amoral personalities.

They can work in partnership with one other indididual, or in teams, or on their own. They can actively fight in the foreground, or work from behind the scenes, manipulating others. They can use long-range weapons without physically appearing themselves, or send out LMDs, robots/androids, or act as crime lords and utilize human beings, either street criminals or scientists like members of AIM or HYDRA. They might even sit on corporate/governmental boards and committees, as Mystque has done in diguise, and as the Radioactive Man has done.

THIS is how a writer uses criminals and advances them. And there's no reason the GG can't be used in these and other ways, AS HE HAS--maybe just not in your life time or reading lifetime. He might fall through a hole in the Earth and end up partnering with the Mole Man, or befriend the Leader. The sky's the limit.


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Thatguy




> My posts swerve away from that point because to me it's a non-issue: it's an issue for you.
>
> I don't see any reason to bend over backwards to defend him. And your remark was itself a cheap shot: you were proven wrong, period.

Yes, I'm pure evil for suggesting you might have made a minor mistake *rhe*
>
> You seem to think that the GG can only be used physically, as someone who can reach out and turn someone else to stone. Not so at all.

Nope. You really ain't been reading my replies at all. That, or you don't understand them.
>
> That's like saying Moonstone, the Grim Reaper, the Mad Thinker, the Radioactive Man, the Space Phantom, the Jester, the Puppet Master, the Owl, Llyra, the Red Skull, Loki, the Wingless Wizard, or Mystique are limited in their scheming and evil ways by their super powers.
>
> No, they're intelligent individuals, and much of their allure, success, tenacity, and skill comes not from their powers but from their zealous sociopathic/amoral personalities.

Which GG lacks.
>
> They can work in partnership with one other indididual, or in teams, or on their own. They can actively fight in the foreground, or work from behind the scenes, manipulating others. They can use long-range weapons without physically appearing themselves, or send out LMDs, robots/androids, or act as crime lords and utilize human beings, either street criminals or scientists like members of AIM or HYDRA. They might even sit on corporate/governmental boards and committees, as Mystque has done in diguise, and as the Radioactive Man has done.
>
> THIS is how a writer uses criminals and advances them. And there's no reason the GG can't be used in these and other ways, AS HE HAS--maybe just not in your life time or reading lifetime. He might fall through a hole in the Earth and end up partnering with the Mole Man, or befriend the Leader. The sky's the limit.

GG's had since the Silver Age to catch up. He hasn't. Really, he's lucky to be used as cannon fodder.


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