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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.11 on Windows XP



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.11 on Windows XP
Author
seeker




Tony and co have:
-Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
-Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
-Manipulated the populace in a negative way
-Thrown people in prison without a trial
-Profitted from a war they helped set-up
-Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
-Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
-Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
-Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
-Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
-Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
-Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy

Did I miss anything?

P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
PsychicPanda




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)

This happened because some of the people were screwing around with the ships engines when they shouldn't have. This was never intended, and not even the fault of gross neglicence as was the death of Bill Foster.

> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team

And they're lying about it. Remember they haven't actually told anyone about Bullseye yet, because i guess the little people just aren't smart enough to understand.

> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy

When did this happen?

>
> Did I miss anything?
>




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Stingray




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Piotr W.




... Marvel's claims that Tony has not been turned into a villain are quite bizarre.

What next? Maybe they let Iron Man try to destroy the universe to recreate it in his own image? I suspect even then Marvel will claim that wasn't really evil and it's all just a matter of point of view. *rhe*


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
emerickman




Maybe:

Made clandestine deals with arch enemies to endangered civilian lives and screwed Spidey over.
Confessed that the SHRA was not worth it.
Unjustly tried a New Warrior patsy from Stamford.
Virtually taken over SHIELD and established new mission statement(s).
Use the originally intended derogatory statement of cape-killers, quite casually/proudly now.
Coerced Wonderman with legal threats.
Helped destroy, or at least really damage, the marriage of superherodom's First Family.
Already bending/breaking the rules in regards to Eternals
Can claim responsibility for more superhero deaths since the Act started than most iconic villains ever.
Negotiated with Kingpin in prison.
Present questionable honoring of some amnesty promises when Cap surrendered.
Debatably 'enslave' convicted criminals with nanite explosives.


and... still have to read Omega Flight for the details of their international interferring...


> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
CyberCoyote




I can't believe you're saying this! Tony Stark is saving the WORLD! Oh man, I can't believe people are so naive they can't see that..that..

Dang, I can't even fake backing any of this up. He deserves a spot on the throne right next to Doom.

> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.






"I don't think there's such a thing as a hero.
It's a lovely idea and this isn't meant to be cynical,
but I think people are just people who are capable of
very good of very bad things.... "

Mark Millar: Writer of Super Hero comic books


CyberCoyote-=^..^=-
Icon




>


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Sandman




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
They got a kid killed, MVP, and acted like it was Armory's fault even though she was under the influence of Trauma's power. They irresponsibly screwed up in training these new recruits that just arrived and like cowards refused to take responsibility. Pym, Gauntlet, and Gyrich broke the law and are using the registration act law to put themselves above the other laws. Once the truth is revealed to the public, the government will probably have no choice but to arrest them, and Iron Man, and give them a prison sentence according to criminal law.

This may end where a lot of super-heroes who were in on the corruption who will be arrested and trailed for their crimes and may end up being like the Thunderbolts. She-Hulk may end up defending people like Wonder Man who was forced into this by the government through blackmail, but she'll probably do nothing for Iron Man for his excusable actions.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Spiffy




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.

More ethical no-nos, even if not all are crimes:

- Through Tony Stark's wisdom, persuaded Peter Parker to give up the safety net of his secret identity (and if you recall, Tony set up a whole fake conflict to help push that manipulation). Indirectly this caused grave injury to one of Peter's loved ones. I almost laughed at The Initiative directive about not letting anyone know your secret ID after that.
- Persued Spidey as if he wasn't in compliance with the SHRA... when he was.Admittedly two different publications showed the conflict two different ways (one with Peter throwing the first punch and one with Tony doing so), but even if Peter HAD started it, all Peter was initially going to do, I believe, was leave Stark's physical custody. Which at that point he had ever right to do.
- Plenty of lies on a personal level. Carol Danvers has been shown as doing this multiple times for her lord and master, Tony.
- The betrayal of Songbird by Tony and his lackey, in Thunderbolts. She went through extraordinary lengths to prove her redemption, and in particular helped the Powers That Be out on a number of things. And so their repayment is apparently to put her at Norman Osborn's complete mercy. In its own way, this is as disgusting and slimy a move as what Stark did to Peter Parker. Tony has proved that he's an even worse "friend" to have than an enemy.
- For all that we hate her, in a way Tony's treatment of Maria Hill is indicative of what a scumball he's been transformed into. Yes, she's a moral zero in some ways, but you can tell that Tony liked being able to humble her and grind her under his Iron boot. Which I'd be okay with if he was any more moral than her. But he's not, so it makes his display disturbing and jut wrong. Immoral characters should be humbled by the righteous, not other immoral characters.
- If we are to believe recent developments in the FF and Black Panther comics, basically the Pro-Regers have invaded an alien world with intelligent owners for placement of their stupid prison. Yeah, real moral, jackholes!
- From an absolute moral standpoint, the way Tony used Norman Osborne was immoral. Not just the part about almost starting a war, but also the mere method. Now I know that objections to immorality against Evil people seem to ring hollow, but if you are looking at it from an absolute standard of what's right and wrong, the person the immoral act is against shouldn't matter. Some things are just wrong by principal.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.2pre on Linux
Dark Marvel




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor

Is there a law against cloning Gods? I know there is one that applies to humans...Gods...not so sure plus to mention the fact that this was a cyborg

> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin

***Yeah they did that.

> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way

***Whats the law on that?

> -Thrown people in prison without a trial

People are put in jail without trial all the time...Thats where they stay bfore thier trial begins and we know that they eventually would have gotten one...Speedball was getting set for his and he was the first


> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up

War takes 2 sides...If cap had followed the law the war wouldnt have been started in the first place.


> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains

Nobody has been enslaved...they had a choice the murderous super villains were put on leashes.

> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter

***That was certainly unfortunate...but also can be seen as a pure accident.

> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)

***Exactly we are not sure and it is looking like an accident one with the fact it happened so long after he landed and it said warp core breach whch sounds like there was something broken

> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology

***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.


> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team

***What law is this? They allowed the greatest hero the world has ever known to become an Avenger and Ares technically is a diplomat as he is part of a royal family...I dont see a law being broken here


> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war

***1st this hasn't anything to do with pro reg. 2nd what could be seen as a weapon was used on citizens of earth and has been confiscated as a weapon because of national security.

> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy

***When did they plot this? They are keeping the possibility open in case it becomes necessary which imo is a smart move in case other countries try to go at the USA.
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
D. Strange




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Spiffy




> > Tony and co have:
> > -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
>
> Is there a law against cloning Gods? I know there is one that applies to humans...Gods...not so sure plus to mention the fact that this was a cyborg
>
> > -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
>
> ***Yeah they did that.
>
> > -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
>
> ***Whats the law on that?

This poster should have qualified that a lot of stuff was immoral or unethical even if not illegal.

> > -Thrown people in prison without a trial
>
> People are put in jail without trial all the time...Thats where they stay bfore thier trial begins and we know that they eventually would have gotten one...Speedball was getting set for his and he was the first
>
>
> > -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
>
> War takes 2 sides...If cap had followed the law the war wouldnt have been started in the first place.

I think you misunderstand the claim. The poster isn't talking about the winner taking the spoils, they are talking about war profiteering--about Tony Stark's companies making money by getting contracts to help win a war he started.

>
> > -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
>
> Nobody has been enslaved...they had a choice the murderous super villains were put on leashes.

Call it indenture instead of slavery then. Its not much better.

And controlling people's actions through mind control, drugs and electro-mechanical manipulation isn't really ethical (and probably not legal by most analysis) no matter who the person involved is, murderous criminal or not.

> > -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
>
> ***That was certainly unfortunate...but also can be seen as a pure accident.

Sure. Then again, there's a moral problem for many with creating a being just to be your enforcer. If villains do it we call it bad. Why is it any better when "heroes" do it?

> > -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
>
> ***Exactly we are not sure and it is looking like an accident one with the fact it happened so long after he landed and it said warp core breach whch sounds like there was something broken

I do think it was an accident. Then again even that shows a certain degree of irresponsibility. If you send a big huge nuclear powered device to a planet, you probably should check up to make sure it went where you assume it would and that nothing else has gone wrong. Same goes for someone you exile.

> > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
>
> ***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.

Top of the head blown off seems pretty clear.

I was also bothered by the fact that the "hero" who manipulated that girl into freaking out didn't get booted too.

>
> > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
>
> ***What law is this? They allowed the greatest hero the world has ever known to become an Avenger and Ares technically is a diplomat as he is part of a royal family...I dont see a law being broken here

The above statement could also be about the Thunderbolts, couldn't it?

>
> > -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
>
> ***1st this hasn't anything to do with pro reg. 2nd what could be seen as a weapon was used on citizens of earth and has been confiscated as a weapon because of national security.
>
> > -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> ***When did they plot this? They are keeping the possibility open in case it becomes necessary which imo is a smart move in case other countries try to go at the USA.
> >
> > Did I miss anything?

You missed the Black Panther book, although I can understand hesitance to read a book which has often been written so disgustingly bad. The U.S. has been consistently plotting to pre-emptively overthrow Wakanda for a while. And Stark's little fake war basically led to a fait accompli that they had to plan to overthrow Atlantis as well, although that has been delayed actually happening by other plots in the M.U. Also, not returning the Terragin Mists to the Inhumans was not only close to a declaration of war, it also probably inevitably would lead to an inevitable unseating of their governmental at some point if they don't get them back. The U.S. government had to know that.

> >
> > P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.2pre on Linux
seeker





>
> > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
>
> And they're lying about it. Remember they haven't actually told anyone about Bullseye yet, because i guess the little people just aren't smart enough to understand.
>
Actually, here I was talking about the Mighty Avengers. Specifically the Sentry and Ares. The Sentry tends to have mental breakdowns at every major occassion and Ares' history I think speaks for itself. In the past he was the rabid dog of Olympus, now he is Stark's rabid dog. That is essentially why they recruited him. To do the dirty work just like the Olympians had him do. Of course, in the past Zeus or Hercules were around to keep him on a leash. Now Zeus is dead and who knows about Hercules. They claim he is supposed to be the "Wolverine" of the team, but if you think about it isn't he more like Sabertooth?

> > -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> > -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> When did this happen?
>
In a recent FF issue some state department officals are discussing Reed allowing the Black Panther to stay in the U. S. and one mentions making Wakanda an example to other nations about opposing the U. S.

Also, in that comic where Stark profiles many of the superhumans. At the beginning he is discussing how several nations are dealing with the superhuman tension such as Japan treating them as modern gods while Israel and England I think have less severe forms of registration acts. Concerning Atlantis he talks about a "regime change" concerning Namor since Namor has opposed Stark for sometime.


> >
> > Did I miss anything?
> >
>
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
seeker




> > > Tony and co have:
> > > -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> >
> > Is there a law against cloning Gods? I know there is one that applies to humans...Gods...not so sure plus to mention the fact that this was a cyborg
> >
> > > -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> >
> > ***Yeah they did that.
> >
> > > -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> >
> > ***Whats the law on that?
>
> This poster should have qualified that a lot of stuff was immoral or unethical even if not illegal.
>
> > > -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> >
> > People are put in jail without trial all the time...Thats where they stay bfore thier trial begins and we know that they eventually would have gotten one...Speedball was getting set for his and he was the first
> >
> >
> > > -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> >
> > War takes 2 sides...If cap had followed the law the war wouldnt have been started in the first place.
>
> I think you misunderstand the claim. The poster isn't talking about the winner taking the spoils, they are talking about war profiteering--about Tony Stark's companies making money by getting contracts to help win a war he started.
>
> >
> > > -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> >
> > Nobody has been enslaved...they had a choice the murderous super villains were put on leashes.
>
> Call it indenture instead of slavery then. Its not much better.
>
> And controlling people's actions through mind control, drugs and electro-mechanical manipulation isn't really ethical (and probably not legal by most analysis) no matter who the person involved is, murderous criminal or not.
>
> > > -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> >
> > ***That was certainly unfortunate...but also can be seen as a pure accident.
>
> Sure. Then again, there's a moral problem for many with creating a being just to be your enforcer. If villains do it we call it bad. Why is it any better when "heroes" do it?
>
> > > -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> >
> > ***Exactly we are not sure and it is looking like an accident one with the fact it happened so long after he landed and it said warp core breach whch sounds like there was something broken
>
> I do think it was an accident. Then again even that shows a certain degree of irresponsibility. If you send a big huge nuclear powered device to a planet, you probably should check up to make sure it went where you assume it would and that nothing else has gone wrong. Same goes for someone you exile.
>
> > > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> >
> > ***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.
>
> Top of the head blown off seems pretty clear.
>
> I was also bothered by the fact that the "hero" who manipulated that girl into freaking out didn't get booted too.
>
> >
> > > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> >
> > ***What law is this? They allowed the greatest hero the world has ever known to become an Avenger and Ares technically is a diplomat as he is part of a royal family...I dont see a law being broken here
>
> The above statement could also be about the Thunderbolts, couldn't it?
>
> >
> > > -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> >
> > ***1st this hasn't anything to do with pro reg. 2nd what could be seen as a weapon was used on citizens of earth and has been confiscated as a weapon because of national security.
> >
> > > -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
> >
> > ***When did they plot this? They are keeping the possibility open in case it becomes necessary which imo is a smart move in case other countries try to go at the USA.
> > >
> > > Did I miss anything?
>
> You missed the Black Panther book, although I can understand hesitance to read a book which has often been written so disgustingly bad. The U.S. has been consistently plotting to pre-emptively overthrow Wakanda for a while. And Stark's little fake war basically led to a fait accompli that they had to plan to overthrow Atlantis as well, although that has been delayed actually happening by other plots in the M.U. Also, not returning the Terragin Mists to the Inhumans was not only close to a declaration of war, it also probably inevitably would lead to an inevitable unseating of their governmental at some point if they don't get them back. The U.S. government had to know that.
>
> > >
> > > P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
BlakGard




> > Tony and co have:
> > -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
>
> Is there a law against cloning Gods? I know there is one that
> applies to humans...Gods...not so sure plus to mention the fact that
> this was a cyborg

Technically, there isn't even a law against cloning humans at the moment (not in the real world, at least). There is just a law prohibiting the use of federal funds to pay for research into human cloning.

> > -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
>
> ***Whats the law on that?

Yeah. More of an ethical thing.

> > -Thrown people in prison without a trial
>
> People are put in jail without trial all the time...Thats where they
> stay bfore thier trial begins and we know that they eventually would
> have gotten one...Speedball was getting set for his and he was the
> first

Not according to Tony one occasion. "No trials," he said.

> > -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
>
> War takes 2 sides...If cap had followed the law the war wouldnt have
> been started in the first place.

Not true. The "war" started before there was even a law, and Cap didn't start it.

> > -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
>
> Nobody has been enslaved...they had a choice the murderous super
> villains were put on leashes.

That is still the legal definition of enslavement.

> > -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as
> > negilgant homicide or manslaughter
>
> ***That was certainly unfortunate...but also can be seen as a pure
> accident.

Thus "negligent homicide or manslaughter."

> > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing
> > up to acquire some technology
>
> ***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.

I'm kind of liking the theory that it was only an LMD and the real MVP is being prepped to be the new Cap.

> > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations
> > and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
>
> ***What law is this? They allowed the greatest hero the world has ever known to become an Avenger and Ares technically is a diplomat as he is part of a royal family...I dont see a law being broken here

Does the Marvel US have a diplomatic relationship with Olympia?
Does the Marvel US even recognize the status of Olympia?

> > -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return
> > it possible starting another war
>
> ***1st this hasn't anything to do with pro reg. 2nd what could be
> seen as a weapon was used on citizens of earth and has been
> confiscated as a weapon because of national security.

This doesn't exempt them. But yeah, this was a US/O*N*E thing. Not a pro-reg thing. There are no "citizens of Earth" though, and it's questionable if US forces had any authority on Genosha.
____________________



Posted with Netscape Navigator 8.1.2 on Windows XP
BlakGard




> > > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing
> > > up to acquire some technology
> > > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations
> > > and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> >
> > And they're lying about it. Remember they haven't actually told
> > anyone about Bullseye yet, because i guess the little people just
> > aren't smart enough to understand.
>
> Actually, here I was talking about the Mighty Avengers. Specifically
> the Sentry and Ares. The Sentry tends to have mental breakdowns at
> every major occassion and Ares' history I think speaks for itself. In
> the past he was the rabid dog of Olympus, now he is Stark's rabid dog.
> That is essentially why they recruited him. To do the dirty work just
> like the Olympians had him do. Of course, in the past Zeus or
> Hercules were around to keep him on a leash. Now Zeus is dead and who
> knows about Hercules. They claim he is supposed to be the "Wolverine"
> of the team, but if you think about it isn't he more like Sabertooth?

The difference between Wolverine and Sabretooth is morality, and since Ares is trying to be a kinder, gentler war god so he can be a good role model for his son, he's really closer to Wolverine.
____________________



Posted with Netscape Navigator 8.1.2 on Windows XP
BlakGard




First thing that comes to mind...

"- You mentioned rape twice.
- I like rape."

No rapists here.
____________________



Posted with Netscape Navigator 8.1.2 on Windows XP
CyberCoyote




> > > Tony and co have:
> > > -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> >
> > Is there a law against cloning Gods? I know there is one that
> > applies to humans...Gods...not so sure plus to mention the fact that
> > this was a cyborg
>
> Technically, there isn't even a law against cloning humans at the moment (not in the real world, at least). There is just a law prohibiting the use of federal funds to pay for research into human cloning.
>
> > > -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> >
> > ***Whats the law on that?
>
> Yeah. More of an ethical thing.
>
> > > -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> >
> > People are put in jail without trial all the time...Thats where they
> > stay bfore thier trial begins and we know that they eventually would
> > have gotten one...Speedball was getting set for his and he was the
> > first
>
> Not according to Tony one occasion. "No trials," he said.
>
> > > -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> >
> > War takes 2 sides...If cap had followed the law the war wouldnt have
> > been started in the first place.
>
> Not true. The "war" started before there was even a law, and Cap didn't start it.
>
> > > -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> >
> > Nobody has been enslaved...they had a choice the murderous super
> > villains were put on leashes.
>
> That is still the legal definition of enslavement.
>
> > > -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as
> > > negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> >
> > ***That was certainly unfortunate...but also can be seen as a pure
> > accident.
>
> Thus "negligent homicide or manslaughter."
>
> > > -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing
> > > up to acquire some technology
> >
> > ***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.
>
> I'm kind of liking the theory that it was only an LMD and the real MVP is being prepped to be the new Cap.
>
> > > -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations
> > > and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> >
> > ***What law is this? They allowed the greatest hero the world has ever known to become an Avenger and Ares technically is a diplomat as he is part of a royal family...I dont see a law being broken here
>
> Does the Marvel US have a diplomatic relationship with Olympia?
> Does the Marvel US even recognize the status of Olympia?
>
> > > -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return
> > > it possible starting another war
> >
> > ***1st this hasn't anything to do with pro reg. 2nd what could be
> > seen as a weapon was used on citizens of earth and has been
> > confiscated as a weapon because of national security.
>
> This doesn't exempt them. But yeah, this was a US/O*N*E thing. Not a pro-reg thing. There are no "citizens of Earth" though, and it's questionable if US forces had any authority on Genosha.
> ____________________
>






"I don't think there's such a thing as a hero.
It's a lovely idea and this isn't meant to be cynical,
but I think people are just people who are capable of
very good of very bad things.... "

Mark Millar: Writer of Super Hero comic books


CyberCoyote-=^..^=-
Icon




> I think you misunderstand the claim. The poster isn't talking about the winner taking the spoils, they are talking about war profiteering--about Tony Stark's companies making money by getting contracts to help win a war he started.

Yeah, that severaly rankled with me too.

> > ***% to 1 odds that MVP is still alive.
>
> Top of the head blown off seems pretty clear.

Not too sure about that, the Doctor saying that there was something "vhich may change everything" might seem to indicate that MVP has a regenerative power he wasn't aware of himself, and if his powers come from the Super Soldier Serum (which they kinda-vaguely-might) when what might that mean for that other guy who had the SSP in him who was shot dead recently....

Pure speculation on my part of course.

> I was also bothered by the fact that the "hero" who manipulated that girl into freaking out didn't get booted too.

I think expecting any sort of ethically justifiable actions from this lot is a little optimistic.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Zeroun




> ... Marvel's claims that Tony has not been turned into a villain are quite bizarre.

I can see it now: "Doom? Nah! He's allright, you just gotta look at it from his point of view!"

> What next? Maybe they let Iron Man try to destroy the universe to recreate it in his own image?

He's Parallax now?

>I suspect even then Marvel will claim that wasn't really evil and it's all just a matter of point of view. *rhe*

Iron Man: An evil alien made me do it!
Green Lantern: Yeah!


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows Vista
Icon




> > ... Marvel's claims that Tony has not been turned into a villain are quite bizarre.
>
> I can see it now: "Doom? Nah! He's allright, you just gotta look at it from his point of view!"

The thing is, with Doom you actually CAN do that. He believes wholeheartedly that he is best suited to rule the world, and based on "Emperor Doom" he might have a point, as he was doing a fairly good job of it.

He's never viewed his actions as evil, merely pragmatic, and when he WAS in power, there were no mass purges, no random deaths, just no free will. His utter loathing of Reed Richards is a relatively low key, almost amusing, pecadillo in the "World tyrant" stakes.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Chris Bechtloff




The SHRA doesnt just make it illegal to be a superhero who doesnt serve SHEILD and Director Stark, but its illegal to be a Super-HUMAN who doesnt serve SHEILD. I can give three exapmles. In Avengers: The Inititive #1 Could 9 is arrested not for being an unlicenced super-hero, but simply flying around. In Mighty Avengers #1 Ares is threaten with arrest unless he works for Stark, and he wasnt even exhibiting any powers, he was simply working at a construction site. A few issues ago in New Avengers at the start of the war Luke Cage is arrested for sitting in his home. He hadnt done any super hero activity after the passing of the SHRA at that point, for all Stark and SHEILD knew he was going to retire. You could argue the Cage and Cloud 9 were probably GOING to comit unlicenced acts of super-heroism, but since when do we arrest people because we think they might commit a crime later. It seems to me the SHRA makes it a crime to be super-human, unless of course your also willing to be Tony Starks bitch. Congratulations Tony, you've done what Doom, Magneto, Red Skull, and all the rest failed to do, you took over the world (or at least the U.S.).


> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor
> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin
> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way
> -Thrown people in prison without a trial
> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up
> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains
> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter
> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology
> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team
> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war
> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Piotr W.




> I can see it now: "Doom? Nah! He's allright, you just gotta look at it from his point of view!"

Yep, I really have trouble getting what's currently the difference between Stark and Doom...

> He's Parallax now?

That's what I meant \:\-\)

The way I see it, if DC was in the same mindset that current Marvel is, they would claim that Parallax wasn't evil... he had simply different, "more relevant and current" ideas about how to be a superhero...

Seriously, Marvel seems to write Pro-Reg side as steadily more and more villainous... while claiming that they are still heroes with a different point of view. Is it a case of one hand don't knowing what the other one does - or is current Marvel so cynical they actually believe that the end justifies any means? Mind boggles...


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
seeker





>
> The difference between Wolverine and Sabretooth is morality, and since Ares is trying to be a kinder, gentler war god so he can be a good role model for his son, he's really closer to Wolverine.
> ____________________
>

In the past Ares has definitly been like Sabertooth on the morality scale. It remains to be seen how much he has changed and how long it will last. Granted, Ares does seem to have matured some since he realized why even his own family hated him, but thousands of years of history is alot to overcome in a few years.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
seeker




> First thing that comes to mind...
>
> "- You mentioned rape twice.
> - I like rape."
>
> No rapists here.
> ____________________
>

When did I mention rape?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Icon




> > First thing that comes to mind...
> >
> > "- You mentioned rape twice.
> > - I like rape."
> >
> > No rapists here.
> > ____________________
> >
>
> When did I mention rape?

It's from Mel Brook's second funniest film (Young Frankenstein wins) "Blazing Saddles". When asking for a resumé of a desperado's vile deeds, the bad guy leader has that exchange with them.

"Credentials?"
"Rape, murder, robbery, arson, rape,.. "
"You mentioned rape twice."
"I like rape."


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Howard Johnson





> It's from Mel Brook's second funniest film (Young Frankenstein wins) "Blazing Saddles". When asking for a resumé of a desperado's vile deeds, the bad guy leader has that exchange with them.

I dunno, there. Might need a vote. While Young Frankeinstein is without a doubt one of the funniest films of all time, there are those of us who may get a kick (from cocaine.....)err (movie reference too).. the anchronistic marvel that is Blazing Saddles \:\)


I mean c'mon. the sheriff is 'a neer \:\)
> "Credentials?"
> "Rape, murder, robbery, arson, rape,.. "
> "You mentioned rape twice."
> "I like rape."


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Icon




> > It's from Mel Brook's second funniest film (Young Frankenstein wins) "Blazing Saddles". When asking for a resumé of a desperado's vile deeds, the bad guy leader has that exchange with them.
>
> I dunno, there. Might need a vote. While Young Frankeinstein is without a doubt one of the funniest films of all time, there are those of us who may get a kick (from cocaine.....)err (movie reference too).. the anchronistic marvel that is Blazing Saddles \:\)
>
>
> I mean c'mon. the sheriff is 'a neer \:\)

But Young Frankenstein has Gene Wilder playing it relatively straight, Marty Feldman at his most hysterical, Madeleine Kahn in her best performance (Paper Moon to one side... possibly) and just when you think it can't get any better, Gene Hackman shows up with the funniest cameo this side of John Cleese in Doctor Who....


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.3 on Windows XP
Stingray




> >


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
MysteryMan




> Tony and co have:
> -Violated bioethics by cloning Thor

Thats YOUR opinion...many of us don't happen to see the word clone and think Evil.

> -Nearly started a war by unleashing the Green Goblin

With a country that has attacked them many times...that were activated sleeper agents and killing US citizens with their spies and troops...they SHOULD outright declare war on Atlantis.

> -Manipulated the populace in a negative way

That was Cap...Tony supported the "peoples" decisions...thr anti-regs tried to make "normals" into lemmings with their propoganda

> -Thrown people in prison without a trial

Yes in preparation for a trial...would you have prefered they tag and release them back into the wild?

> -Profitted from a war they helped set-up

Actually all that money was used to repair the damage and to set up training facilities...it was clarified Tony did not "personally" profit from this.

> -Enslaved and unleashed murderous super-villains

They aer not enslaved...and if you mean TBolts for the 80 millionth time...Tony has nothing to do with there current state.

> -Arguable responsible for the death of Bill Foster either as negilgant homicide or manslaughter

Let's see ... Tony legally enforcing the law...armed vigilanties resisting the law, after they were asked to talk rather then fight. Analogous to police trying to talk to bank robbers...and the orbbers open fire and one of them dies in the resulting shootout...nope...sorry thats not the definition of homicide or manslaughter.

> -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)

Everything was fine until Hulk lost his temper and those guys messed with the engines.

> -Covered-up the death of a student and perhaps set the whole thing up to acquire some technology

What do you know as facts here...you seem to just assume here

> -Allowed a mentally unstable power house into stressful situations and recruited a known sociopath on the same team

You never made a post about Cap's original recruitment of him...but thats ok right, because you lked the idea then and hey Cap can be a dictator if he wants right?

> -Stole the Terrigan Mists from the Inhumans and refused to return it possible starting another war

Who exactly stole it and who said they could not have it back?

> -Plotting the overthrow of forgein governments that oppose the current U. S. Policy

Who...what..which...where...when?

> Did I miss anything?
>
> P. S. I know all of this isn't Tony Stark, only about half of it. That is why I said Tony and Co. however he is the primary leader and has his hand in just about everything some way or another.

Yeah and the aliens kidnapped you and used all horrible types of probes on you as well too....right?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Thatguy





>
> > -Destroyed Planet Skaara (I'm still not clear if this was an accident or if they actually left a bomb to try and kill the hulk if he ever tried to leave)
>
> Everything was fine until Hulk lost his temper and those guys messed with the engines.

First, Hulk was trying to escape a trap just like anyone else in his situation would. Stark's actions were illegal, so Hulk is morally required to sit back and take it.

And we'd better hope that it was Hulk's buddies who blew the engines, because otherwise, yes Stark and friends are responsible for destroying a world.

Stark and the others took the law into their own hands when they exiled Hulk. All the damage that results from what is on their heads, regardless of intent.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
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