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Dark Marvel




nt


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
SourceMole




that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
the list goes on and on \:\-D


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Dark Marvel




> that basic human/mutant rights are ignored

***example(s)

> that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,

***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.



> that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,

***When and where?


> that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,


***with nano leashes of course.


> that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,

***Who are the innocents?


> that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it

***Thats like telling some beat cop instead of catching people who are breaking the law go and try and bust your Sargent because he is looking corrupted...almost NEVER happens.

> the list goes on and on \:\-D


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> that basic human/mutant rights are ignored

Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register

> that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,

you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active

> that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,

there has been ZERO enforcement outside the USA...the only thing he has done outside USA is SHIELD stuff that has always been the case with SHIELD

> that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,

Yeah the Thunderbolts are a bit odd I'll give you...the govt. threw them out there to counter the Initiative, but they are a cure thats worse then thye problem

> that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,

Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.

> that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it

They HAVE shown that Tony is still looking for whats corrupt in SHIELD...he has come down hard on any in the Initiative who acted out of line...Gyrich was REMOVED for his corruption. There has been some effort...and there has been some results.

> the list goes on and on \:\-D

When you keep making stuff up sure it can go on and on...lol


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> nt

I like the concept...it makes sense plain and simple.

I do not like much of the execution and the total disregard many writers have shown one anothers works. Editorial is to blame here...there should be some basic guidlines we see on how SHRA works...differnt books portray it completely differently...and if it's a LAW this would not be tolerated so openly as it is.

Sure you can show corruption in the system and have a story as the heroes fight against it...but the concept is a good one...there are some good people in charge...it should be shown that the LAW just needs some work as opposed to being outright evil...some writers show that....some dont.

The inconsistancy is what bothers me.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
SourceMole




> > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
>
> ***example(s)
>
how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place

> > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
>
> ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.

its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this

>
>
>
> > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
>
> ***When and where?
>
how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice. and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law

>
> > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
>
>
> ***with nano leashes of course.
>

a lot of good that did to those heroes that they have crippled, maimed and eaten

>
> > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
>
> ***Who are the innocents?
>

those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?

>
> > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
>
> ***Thats like telling some beat cop instead of catching people who are breaking the law go and try and bust your Sargent because he is looking corrupted...almost NEVER happens.
>

but ironman is no beatcop. he basically runs the operation. so its very different. his mere knowledge of the existence of the thunderbolts and his inability to take this group out proves this.

> > the list goes on and on \:\-D


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
SourceMole




> > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
>
> Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register
>

In X-men Civil War the President pardons the 198 that ran away from the Institude. those mutants would, from that point on, be treated as super powered people instead of anything else. They would no longer have to stay within the confine of the Xavier Institude, they can travel freely anywhere in the U.S. But they need to register like ALL super powered folks. From then on they can serve in a super hero team or not.

> > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
>
> you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active
>

unless your powers are useful to the government then you are forced to work for them

> > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
>
> there has been ZERO enforcement outside the USA...the only thing he has done outside USA is SHIELD stuff that has always been the case with SHIELD
>

so are you saying that tony has NEVER tried to arrest anyone outside the US for violating the SHRA?

> > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
>
> Yeah the Thunderbolts are a bit odd I'll give you...the govt. threw them out there to counter the Initiative, but they are a cure thats worse then thye problem
>
> > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
>
> Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.
>

it was only called a war but there never really was a "war" so basic liberties and rights should have been applied. anyone who was arrested during this "war" and were not given their day in court is innocent in my book. \:\-D and trusting captain marvel as their warden in so short a time without even questioning or verifying why he's suddenly alive again? reeks of incompetent handling of the prison

> > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
>
> They HAVE shown that Tony is still looking for whats corrupt in SHIELD...he has come down hard on any in the Initiative who acted out of line...Gyrich was REMOVED for his corruption. There has been some effort...and there has been some results.
>

im not talking about shield. im talking about the thunderbolts and those that get injured and killed during their "training"

> > the list goes on and on \:\-D
>
> When you keep making stuff up sure it can go on and on...lol

wearing blinders are we? \:\-p


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Icon




> > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
>
> ***example(s)
>
> > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
>
> ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.

So far I don't think that's worked with anyone in the Initative. They HAVE to register and attend training, so they can't just say "I won't use my powers"

>
> > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
>
> ***Who are the innocents?

Digitek? The Negative Zone has an adverse affect on human minds, and though he was arrested for failing to sign on, the effect of ther Zone led to him committing suicide.

Robbie Baldwin was thrown into the Negative Zone prison too, despite not being formally charged with any crime.



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Dark Marvel




> > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> >
> > ***example(s)
> >
> how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place


***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?


>
> > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> >
> > ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.
>
> its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this


***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.

>
> >
> >
> >
> > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> >
> > ***When and where?
> >
> how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.


***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.


and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law



***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.

>
> >
> > > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
> >
> >
> > ***with nano leashes of course.
> >
>
> a lot of good that did to those heroes that they have crippled, maimed and eaten


***Oh you mean those criminals. By the way...the Thunderbolts have nothing to do with Stark or Shield or any of that that is the human council or super hman committee or some such.


>
> >
> > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> >
> > ***Who are the innocents?
> >
>
> those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?


***Once again we do not really know that do we?


>
> >
> > > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
> >
> > ***Thats like telling some beat cop instead of catching people who are breaking the law go and try and bust your Sargent because he is looking corrupted...almost NEVER happens.
> >
>
> but ironman is no beatcop. he basically runs the operation. so its very different. his mere knowledge of the existence of the thunderbolts and his inability to take this group out proves this.


***He can't just take them out...they are outside of his jurisdiction(since you like to use that term)and he knows of corruption within SHIELD and has secretly and partially actively been trying to weed it out and eradicate it.


>
> > > the list goes on and on \:\-D


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Icon




> > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
>
> Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register

That's hardly an argument, they don't have to register because apparently they were ALREADY registered.

> you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active

So can a trainee refuse to take part in a training mission, like, say, being thrown into a lethal firefight with AIM (Or it might have been Sons of the Serpent, I forget) as happened early in the Initative?

> > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
>
> Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.

Battlestar, the former Bucky, and member of Freedom Force, was attending an underground meeting of unsigned heroes when a bunch of "cape killers" (Nice non-perjorative title they gave themselves there) threw a bomb into the middle of it. He might have been in strict violation of the law, but there's such a thing as "appropriate force".



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Icon




> > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
>
> ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...

No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.

> > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.

Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?

> > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
>
> ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...

Irrelevent, it's not American territory.

>the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...

That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.

>if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...

Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.

>I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.

The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.

> > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
>
> ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.

Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.

> > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
>
> ***Once again we do not really know that do we?

Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Dark Marvel




> > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> >
> > ***example(s)
> >
> > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> >
> > ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.
>
> So far I don't think that's worked with anyone in the Initative. They HAVE to register and attend training, so they can't just say "I won't use my powers"


***Starfire-literally took off her mask and quit and we never heard from her again...she ain't in jail...Butterball an actual recruit who wanted to be in the initiative was sent home despite having a very useful power of invulnerability...


>
> >
> > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> >
> > ***Who are the innocents?
>
> Digitek? The Negative Zone has an adverse affect on human minds, and though he was arrested for failing to sign on, the effect of ther Zone led to him committing suicide.

***What book was this?


>
> Robbie Baldwin was thrown into the Negative Zone prison too, despite not being formally charged with any crime.

***Unless he was simply being held there...I mean nobody was bailing him out right?


>


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Menshevik




> > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > >
> > > ***example(s)
> > >
> > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
>
>
> ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?

Often enough to know that it happens regularly.
>
>
> > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > >
> > > ***When and where?
> > >
> > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
>
>
> ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America

Last I heard, Ka-Zar is a citizen of the United Kingdom, as was his father, so by your imperialist logic the Savage Land would belong to the Brits.





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.12 on Windows 98
Dark Marvel




> > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > >
> > > > ***example(s)
> > > >
> > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> >
> >
> > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?
>
> Often enough to know that it happens regularly.



***I don't know that it happens at all...I haven't encountered any proof of that...if you have then please let me know.




> >
> >
> > > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > > >
> > > > ***When and where?
> > > >
> > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> >
> >
> > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America
>
> Last I heard, Ka-Zar is a citizen of the United Kingdom, as was his father, so by your imperialist logic the Savage Land would belong to the Brits.


***You are right by my imperialist logic the savage land would belong to the brits...but i also know that Antarctica as a whole is split by many different countries...for all we now in the 616 universe the area that has the savage land could be in american territory..as it seems America is the only modern nation I have seen there, and no other world powers are doing jack about it.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
TJ Burns





Like: the idea that everyone that is going to be a superhero has to have Avengers-quality training and police authority. It greatly decreases the accidental deaths during rescues, or situations going totally out of control.

Dislike: the requirement that if you have super-powers, then you MUST use them as a superhero. Which, near as I can tell, is quietly going by the wayside as Butterball's time with the Initiative has shown.



TJB


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Sandman




> > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> >
> > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...
>
> No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.
>
> > > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> > ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.
>
> Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?
>
> > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> >
> > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...
>
> Irrelevent, it's not American territory.
>
> >the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...
>
> That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.
>
> >if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...
>
> Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.
>
> >I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.
>
> The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.
>
> > > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
> >
> > ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.
>
> Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.
>
> > > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
> >
> > ***Once again we do not really know that do we?
>
> Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything
>

And it was revealed in Spider-Man that there were no trials. Iron Man stated that they're here until they register which should be considered illegal. As for the negative zone not being U.S. turf, that's probably the reason they had the 42 prison there so that the laws that were design to protect wouldn't be effective there as well. Tony Stark is a criminal who put himself above the laws that are based on the bill of rights that the fore fathers created to stop people like Tony from doing stuff like this, but sadly words and paper aren't enough and the SHRA ended up having hardly anything to do with training and responsibility and more about controlling a resource that isn't considered human enough to have rights.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows Vista
TJ Burns




> > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > >
> > > ***example(s)
> > >
> > > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> > >
> > > ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.
> >
> > So far I don't think that's worked with anyone in the Initative. They HAVE to register and attend training, so they can't just say "I won't use my powers"
>
>
> ***Starfire-literally took off her mask and quit and we never heard from her again...she ain't in jail...Butterball an actual recruit who wanted to be in the initiative was sent home despite having a very useful power of invulnerability...

Firestar, actually, but yeah. Of course, as an Avenger, she would have legally had the training anyway...

> > > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> > >
> > > ***Who are the innocents?
> >
> > Digitek? The Negative Zone has an adverse affect on human minds, and though he was arrested for failing to sign on, the effect of ther Zone led to him committing suicide.
>
> ***What book was this?

Front Line. We've since heard that it was actually an escape plan that looked like a suicide attempt. (He can't die from blowing his head off... Battle Damage report is the source.) It wasn't a negative effect on HUMAN minds, by the way. It was a negative effect on his computerized mind, that also applied to Coldblood 7. It got better eventually, apparently.

> >
> > Robbie Baldwin was thrown into the Negative Zone prison too, despite not being formally charged with any crime.
>
> ***Unless he was simply being held there...I mean nobody was bailing him out right?

He was held in a regular prison for a while as well... and, I believe he was formally charged... wasn't that how he got shot at his hearing?


TJB


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> >
> > Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register
>
> That's hardly an argument, they don't have to register because apparently they were ALREADY registered.

No the initial point is hardly an argument...you can't say anything one way or the other...SHRA had nothing to do with the mutant issue...try laying the blame somewhere else...like the Scarlet Witch.

> > you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active
>
> So can a trainee refuse to take part in a training mission, like, say, being thrown into a lethal firefight with AIM (Or it might have been Sons of the Serpent, I forget) as happened early in the Initative?

Sure they can...they are supposed to be able to. Remember the official that made them do that has been removed for abuse of power.

> > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> >
> > Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.
>
> Battlestar, the former Bucky, and member of Freedom Force, was attending an underground meeting of unsigned heroes when a bunch of "cape killers" (Nice non-perjorative title they gave themselves there) threw a bomb into the middle of it. He might have been in strict violation of the law, but there's such a thing as "appropriate force".


In the middle of a WAR...yes the force used was fine considerign they were normals taking on supers.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> >
> > Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register
> >
>
> In X-men Civil War the President pardons the 198 that ran away from the Institude. those mutants would, from that point on, be treated as super powered people instead of anything else. They would no longer have to stay within the confine of the Xavier Institude, they can travel freely anywhere in the U.S. But they need to register like ALL super powered folks. From then on they can serve in a super hero team or not.
>
> > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> >
> > you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active
> >
>
> unless your powers are useful to the government then you are forced to work for them
>
> > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> >
> > there has been ZERO enforcement outside the USA...the only thing he has done outside USA is SHIELD stuff that has always been the case with SHIELD
> >
>
> so are you saying that tony has NEVER tried to arrest anyone outside the US for violating the SHRA?
>
> > > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
> >
> > Yeah the Thunderbolts are a bit odd I'll give you...the govt. threw them out there to counter the Initiative, but they are a cure thats worse then thye problem
> >
> > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> >
> > Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.
> >
>
> it was only called a war but there never really was a "war" so basic liberties and rights should have been applied. anyone who was arrested during this "war" and were not given their day in court is innocent in my book. \:\-D and trusting captain marvel as their warden in so short a time without even questioning or verifying why he's suddenly alive again? reeks of incompetent handling of the prison
>
> > > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
> >
> > They HAVE shown that Tony is still looking for whats corrupt in SHIELD...he has come down hard on any in the Initiative who acted out of line...Gyrich was REMOVED for his corruption. There has been some effort...and there has been some results.
> >
>
> im not talking about shield. im talking about the thunderbolts and those that get injured and killed during their "training"
>
> > > the list goes on and on \:\-D
> >
> > When you keep making stuff up sure it can go on and on...lol
>
> wearing blinders are we? \:\-p


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > > >
> > > > > ***example(s)
> > > > >
> > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > >
> > >
> > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?
> >
> > Often enough to know that it happens regularly.
>
>
>
> ***I don't know that it happens at all...I haven't encountered any proof of that...if you have then please let me know.
>
>
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > > > >
> > > > > ***When and where?
> > > > >
> > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > >
> > >
> > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America
> >
> > Last I heard, Ka-Zar is a citizen of the United Kingdom, as was his father, so by your imperialist logic the Savage Land would belong to the Brits.
>
>
> ***You are right by my imperialist logic the savage land would belong to the brits...but i also know that Antarctica as a whole is split by many different countries...for all we now in the 616 universe the area that has the savage land could be in american territory..as it seems America is the only modern nation I have seen there, and no other world powers are doing jack about it.

...who stole his property in the form of a Quinjet. There is no law there I know of...other then...you stole my s^$# Luke...your gonna pay...as noted before should the X-Men have never tried to stop Magneto when he was there? Where the h e double hockysticks was their jurisdiction...oh right...lets ignore that huh?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > >
> > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...
> >
> > No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.
> >
> > > > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> > > ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.
> >
> > Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?
> >
> > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > >
> > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...
> >
> > Irrelevent, it's not American territory.
> >
> > >the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...
> >
> > That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.
> >
> > >if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...
> >
> > Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.
> >
> > >I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.
> >
> > The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.
> >
> > > > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
> > >
> > > ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.
> >
> > Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.
> >
> > > > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
> > >
> > > ***Once again we do not really know that do we?
> >
> > Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything
> >
>
> And it was revealed in Spider-Man that there were no trials. Iron Man stated that they're here until they register which should be considered illegal. As for the negative zone not being U.S. turf, that's probably the reason they had the 42 prison there so that the laws that were design to protect wouldn't be effective there as well. Tony Stark is a criminal who put himself above the laws that are based on the bill of rights that the fore fathers created to stop people like Tony from doing stuff like this, but sadly words and paper aren't enough and the SHRA ended up having hardly anything to do with training and responsibility and more about controlling a resource that isn't considered human enough to have rights.

...anything referrign to that trash JMS wrote in Spiderman concerning this is just that complete trash. There is a story called Civil War...a series called Civil War...where that same scene went 100% completely different...they were not to be held there without trial...they were held there temporarily while the "Civil War" was raging....that JMS ignored the main title and totally re-wrote the entire scene was a failure on his part and the editors...me...I"ll stick with what the main CWar title says was happening...the main writer in charge of writing the story...not some disgruntled writer on Spiderman who cant keep his story straight with the main storyline and completely writes backwards.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
SourceMole




> > > > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***example(s)
> > > > > >
> > > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?
> > >
> > > Often enough to know that it happens regularly.
> >
> >
> >
> > ***I don't know that it happens at all...I haven't encountered any proof of that...if you have then please let me know.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***When and where?
> > > > > >
> > > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America
> > >
> > > Last I heard, Ka-Zar is a citizen of the United Kingdom, as was his father, so by your imperialist logic the Savage Land would belong to the Brits.
> >
> >
> > ***You are right by my imperialist logic the savage land would belong to the brits...but i also know that Antarctica as a whole is split by many different countries...for all we now in the 616 universe the area that has the savage land could be in american territory..as it seems America is the only modern nation I have seen there, and no other world powers are doing jack about it.
>
> ...who stole his property in the form of a Quinjet. There is no law there I know of...other then...you stole my s^$# Luke...your gonna pay...as noted before should the X-Men have never tried to stop Magneto when he was there? Where the h e double hockysticks was their jurisdiction...oh right...lets ignore that huh?

he wasnt trying to arrest them for stealing the quinjet. it was because they were still unregistered.
ok and since were not supposed to ignore any crimes committed then why dont we get tony to arrest himself for hiring someone to try to assasinate an ambassador to facilitate the signing of the shra? or am i just "making this thing up" as youre so prone to say?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
SourceMole




> > > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > > >
> > > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...
> > >
> > > No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.
> > >
> > > > > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> > > > ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.
> > >
> > > Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?
> > >
> > > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > > >
> > > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...
> > >
> > > Irrelevent, it's not American territory.
> > >
> > > >the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...
> > >
> > > That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.
> > >
> > > >if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...
> > >
> > > Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.
> > >
> > > >I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.
> > >
> > > The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.
> > >
> > > > > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
> > > >
> > > > ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.
> > >
> > > Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.
> > >
> > > > > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
> > > >
> > > > ***Once again we do not really know that do we?
> > >
> > > Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything
> > >
> >
> > And it was revealed in Spider-Man that there were no trials. Iron Man stated that they're here until they register which should be considered illegal. As for the negative zone not being U.S. turf, that's probably the reason they had the 42 prison there so that the laws that were design to protect wouldn't be effective there as well. Tony Stark is a criminal who put himself above the laws that are based on the bill of rights that the fore fathers created to stop people like Tony from doing stuff like this, but sadly words and paper aren't enough and the SHRA ended up having hardly anything to do with training and responsibility and more about controlling a resource that isn't considered human enough to have rights.
>
> ...anything referrign to that trash JMS wrote in Spiderman concerning this is just that complete trash. There is a story called Civil War...a series called Civil War...where that same scene went 100% completely different...they were not to be held there without trial...they were held there temporarily while the "Civil War" was raging....that JMS ignored the main title and totally re-wrote the entire scene was a failure on his part and the editors...me...I"ll stick with what the main CWar title says was happening...the main writer in charge of writing the story...not some disgruntled writer on Spiderman who cant keep his story straight with the main storyline and completely writes backwards.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
SourceMole




> > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > >
> > > Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register
> > >
> >
> > In X-men Civil War the President pardons the 198 that ran away from the Institude. those mutants would, from that point on, be treated as super powered people instead of anything else. They would no longer have to stay within the confine of the Xavier Institude, they can travel freely anywhere in the U.S. But they need to register like ALL super powered folks. From then on they can serve in a super hero team or not.
> >
> > > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> > >
> > > you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active
> > >
> >
> > unless your powers are useful to the government then you are forced to work for them
> >
> > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > >
> > > there has been ZERO enforcement outside the USA...the only thing he has done outside USA is SHIELD stuff that has always been the case with SHIELD
> > >
> >
> > so are you saying that tony has NEVER tried to arrest anyone outside the US for violating the SHRA?
> >
> > > > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
> > >
> > > Yeah the Thunderbolts are a bit odd I'll give you...the govt. threw them out there to counter the Initiative, but they are a cure thats worse then thye problem
> > >
> > > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> > >
> > > Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.
> > >
> >
> > it was only called a war but there never really was a "war" so basic liberties and rights should have been applied. anyone who was arrested during this "war" and were not given their day in court is innocent in my book. \:\-D and trusting captain marvel as their warden in so short a time without even questioning or verifying why he's suddenly alive again? reeks of incompetent handling of the prison
> >
> > > > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
> > >
> > > They HAVE shown that Tony is still looking for whats corrupt in SHIELD...he has come down hard on any in the Initiative who acted out of line...Gyrich was REMOVED for his corruption. There has been some effort...and there has been some results.
> > >
> >
> > im not talking about shield. im talking about the thunderbolts and those that get injured and killed during their "training"
> >
> > > > the list goes on and on \:\-D
> > >
> > > When you keep making stuff up sure it can go on and on...lol
> >
> > wearing blinders are we? \:\-p

and concrete examples were already given by other posters therefore i found no need to repeat them


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Icon




>
> Like: the idea that everyone that is going to be a superhero has to have Avengers-quality training and police authority. It greatly decreases the accidental deaths during rescues, or situations going totally out of control.
>
> Dislike: the requirement that if you have super-powers, then you MUST use them as a superhero. Which, near as I can tell, is quietly going by the wayside as Butterball's time with the Initiative has shown.

I think there's a difference between being on call if you are summoned, and being a hero. Butterball will never be a hero, but he could be called up if a mission required him

I thought his story offered one of the few bright points, with the recommendation that his ablities would be a gift to fields like firefighting, rescue and recovery, hazmat handling etc.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Dark Marvel




> > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > >
> > > > ***example(s)
> > > >
> > > > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> > > >
> > > > ***or just not use their powers at all...and be citizens...there are multiple examples of this.
> > >
> > > So far I don't think that's worked with anyone in the Initative. They HAVE to register and attend training, so they can't just say "I won't use my powers"
> >
> >
> > ***Starfire-literally took off her mask and quit and we never heard from her again...she ain't in jail...Butterball an actual recruit who wanted to be in the initiative was sent home despite having a very useful power of invulnerability...
>
> Firestar, actually, but yeah. Of course, as an Avenger, she would have legally had the training anyway...
>
> > > > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> > > >
> > > > ***Who are the innocents?
> > >
> > > Digitek? The Negative Zone has an adverse affect on human minds, and though he was arrested for failing to sign on, the effect of ther Zone led to him committing suicide.
> >
> > ***What book was this?
>
> Front Line. We've since heard that it was actually an escape plan that looked like a suicide attempt. (He can't die from blowing his head off... Battle Damage report is the source.) It wasn't a negative effect on HUMAN minds, by the way. It was a negative effect on his computerized mind, that also applied to Coldblood 7. It got better eventually, apparently.
>
> > >
> > > Robbie Baldwin was thrown into the Negative Zone prison too, despite not being formally charged with any crime.
> >
> > ***Unless he was simply being held there...I mean nobody was bailing him out right?
>
> He was held in a regular prison for a while as well... and, I believe he was formally charged... wasn't that how he got shot at his hearing?
>
>
> TJB


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > >
> > > > Mutants are given a pass...they do not even have to register
> > > >
> > >
> > > In X-men Civil War the President pardons the 198 that ran away from the Institude. those mutants would, from that point on, be treated as super powered people instead of anything else. They would no longer have to stay within the confine of the Xavier Institude, they can travel freely anywhere in the U.S. But they need to register like ALL super powered folks. From then on they can serve in a super hero team or not.
> > >
> > > > > that people with powers that have no plans whatsover of being superheroes are forced to work for the government,
> > > >
> > > > you are NOT forced to work with the govt...you are forced to train them so you dont injure others but you are not forced to be active
> > > >
> > >
> > > unless your powers are useful to the government then you are forced to work for them
> > >
> > > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > > >
> > > > there has been ZERO enforcement outside the USA...the only thing he has done outside USA is SHIELD stuff that has always been the case with SHIELD
> > > >
> > >
> > > so are you saying that tony has NEVER tried to arrest anyone outside the US for violating the SHRA?
> > >
> > > > > that known supervillains are hired to enforce this law,
> > > >
> > > > Yeah the Thunderbolts are a bit odd I'll give you...the govt. threw them out there to counter the Initiative, but they are a cure thats worse then thye problem
> > > >
> > > > > that innocents together with supervillains are jailed in the negative zone just for refusing to sign for the shra,
> > > >
> > > > Only those that actively resisted were put into the Negative Zone...it wa a war...no "innocents" are there. Also it depends on which comic you buy how things are actually run there.
> > > >
> > >
> > > it was only called a war but there never really was a "war" so basic liberties and rights should have been applied. anyone who was arrested during this "war" and were not given their day in court is innocent in my book. \:\-D and trusting captain marvel as their warden in so short a time without even questioning or verifying why he's suddenly alive again? reeks of incompetent handling of the prison
> > >
> > > > > that the enforcers of this law are so busy trying to jail other heroes that they have no time to weed out the corruption present among those that enforces it
> > > >
> > > > They HAVE shown that Tony is still looking for whats corrupt in SHIELD...he has come down hard on any in the Initiative who acted out of line...Gyrich was REMOVED for his corruption. There has been some effort...and there has been some results.
> > > >
> > >
> > > im not talking about shield. im talking about the thunderbolts and those that get injured and killed during their "training"
> > >
> > > > > the list goes on and on \:\-D
> > > >
> > > > When you keep making stuff up sure it can go on and on...lol
> > >
> > > wearing blinders are we? \:\-p
>
> and concrete examples were already given by other posters therefore i found no need to repeat them


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > > > > > > > that basic human/mutant rights are ignored
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ***example(s)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...I mean this was goin on before shra in the MU...when have you ever seen any of the heroes that spierman, or cap, or the x-men caught on trial?
> > > >
> > > > Often enough to know that it happens regularly.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***I don't know that it happens at all...I haven't encountered any proof of that...if you have then please let me know.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > that even though this is only a US law people like stark likes to enforce it outside the US,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ***When and where?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America
> > > >
> > > > Last I heard, Ka-Zar is a citizen of the United Kingdom, as was his father, so by your imperialist logic the Savage Land would belong to the Brits.
> > >
> > >
> > > ***You are right by my imperialist logic the savage land would belong to the brits...but i also know that Antarctica as a whole is split by many different countries...for all we now in the 616 universe the area that has the savage land could be in american territory..as it seems America is the only modern nation I have seen there, and no other world powers are doing jack about it.
> >
> > ...who stole his property in the form of a Quinjet. There is no law there I know of...other then...you stole my s^$# Luke...your gonna pay...as noted before should the X-Men have never tried to stop Magneto when he was there? Where the h e double hockysticks was their jurisdiction...oh right...lets ignore that huh?
>
> he wasnt trying to arrest them for stealing the quinjet. it was because they were still unregistered.
> ok and since were not supposed to ignore any crimes committed then why dont we get tony to arrest himself for hiring someone to try to assasinate an ambassador to facilitate the signing of the shra? or am i just "making this thing up" as youre so prone to say?

Yes your making this up...Tony never hired someone to assasinate an ambassador...try again, but with something that actually happened this time.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Dark Marvel




> > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > >
> > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...
> >
> > No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.
> >
> > > > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> > > ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.
> >
> > Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?
> >
> > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > >
> > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...
> >
> > Irrelevent, it's not American territory.
> >
> > >the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...
> >
> > That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.
> >
> > >if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...
> >
> > Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.
> >
> > >I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.
> >
> > The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.
> >
> > > > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
> > >
> > > ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.
> >
> > Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.
> >
> > > > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
> > >
> > > ***Once again we do not really know that do we?
> >
> > Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything
> >
>
> And it was revealed in Spider-Man that there were no trials. Iron Man stated that they're here until they register which should be considered illegal. As for the negative zone not being U.S. turf, that's probably the reason they had the 42 prison there so that the laws that were design to protect wouldn't be effective there as well. Tony Stark is a criminal who put himself above the laws that are based on the bill of rights


1. Tony Stark did not create the SHRA
2. Tony Stark did not elect himself head of SHIELD so he didnt put himself above anything.


that the fore fathers created to stop people like Tony from doing stuff like this,


3. The same forefathers who owned slaves right?

but sadly words and paper aren't enough and the SHRA ended up having hardly anything to do with training and responsibility


***Yet there are now 50 states each with trained and responsible hero teams

and more about controlling a resource that isn't considered human enough to have rights.

***except humans are the ones who came up with the law. Humans elected by humans to come up with this law...Humans accepted and loved by most humans because of this law...safer, and more protected humans...because of this law


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MysteryMan




> > > > > > how many of those arrested have been put on trial before being hauled out to jail? its a basic right to be tried by jury. heck even Guantanamo has "some" legal proceedings in place
> > > > >
> > > > > ***We can simply say we have not seen stories about trials...
> > > >
> > > > No, it's been stated that you can be held there whether you've been charged or not.
> > > >
> > > > > > its also been stated that once signing the act you are basically being drafted to shield. granted there have been conflicting stories about this
> > > > > ***Firestar is a perfect example. She simply took off her mask and simply quit...no jail and no being forced into working for shield.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't she be considered to be on call-up for whatever the SHRA equivalent of the draft is?
> > > >
> > > > > > how many times have we seen tony trying to arrest other heroes outside the US? in the savage land alone i think ive seen it twice.
> > > > >
> > > > > ***The Savageland does not have a law enforcement force...
> > > >
> > > > Irrelevent, it's not American territory.
> > > >
> > > > >the closest thing to one is Ka-Zar...who is American...not to mention the fact that the land was discovered by an American and even had an american oil company stationed there...
> > > >
> > > > That might wash if it weren't for the fact that the Savage Land was already populated by mutiple sentient races and humaoind species BEFORE Americans arrived there. They have no claim on the land.
> > > >
> > > > >if this land had to belong to a nation it would be America...but being that The Savageland has no government...
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't really matter, there's an established population and society. The fact it doesn't use OUR norms doesn't invalidate it, or leave it as open season for anyone to wander through.
> > > >
> > > > >I would say that it is open season on criminals who want to break the laws anywhere else then go there to hide out...never stopped the X-men from goin there and taking down magneto.
> > > >
> > > > The X-Men never went there as agents of any authority political or otherwise, they always went there as free human beings.
> > > >
> > > > > > and the negative zone is outside US jurisdiction so basically since the prisoners are out of the US laws jurisdiction then they are innocent of the registration law
> > > > >
> > > > > ***Come on dude. The N Zone is a virtual Universe...having a prison there does not make the prisoners innocent or outside of the law.
> > > >
> > > > Nor does it abrogate their civil rights.
> > > >
> > > > > > those that were jailed without any trial. ever heard of the term innocent until proven guilty?
> > > > >
> > > > > ***Once again we do not really know that do we?
> > > >
> > > > Again, Robbie Baldwin, they were happy to put him in there despite not having been charged, never mind found guilty of anything
> > > >
> > >
> > > And it was revealed in Spider-Man that there were no trials. Iron Man stated that they're here until they register which should be considered illegal. As for the negative zone not being U.S. turf, that's probably the reason they had the 42 prison there so that the laws that were design to protect wouldn't be effective there as well. Tony Stark is a criminal who put himself above the laws that are based on the bill of rights that the fore fathers created to stop people like Tony from doing stuff like this, but sadly words and paper aren't enough and the SHRA ended up having hardly anything to do with training and responsibility and more about controlling a resource that isn't considered human enough to have rights.
> >
> > ...anything referrign to that trash JMS wrote in Spiderman concerning this is just that complete trash. There is a story called Civil War...a series called Civil War...where that same scene went 100% completely different...they were not to be held there without trial...they were held there temporarily while the "Civil War" was raging....that JMS ignored the main title and totally re-wrote the entire scene was a failure on his part and the editors...me...I"ll stick with what the main CWar title says was happening...the main writer in charge of writing the story...not some disgruntled writer on Spiderman who cant keep his story straight with the main storyline and completely writes backwards.

you have a choice really accept

1) A spin off issue written by a writer with a hatred of a characetr.

2) The main storyline writen by the author in charge of the story, and later an editor (Breevort) admmiting they failed to properly edit many of the spin off issues.

They are 100% in complete contradiction...I go with the guy in charge of the main stortylines point of view who also has an editor indirectly backing him up over a spin off written by a guy with a distaste for the character he is slinging mud at.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> >
> > Like: the idea that everyone that is going to be a superhero has to have Avengers-quality training and police authority. It greatly decreases the accidental deaths during rescues, or situations going totally out of control.
> >
> > Dislike: the requirement that if you have super-powers, then you MUST use them as a superhero. Which, near as I can tell, is quietly going by the wayside as Butterball's time with the Initiative has shown.
>
> I think there's a difference between being on call if you are summoned, and being a hero. Butterball will never be a hero, but he could be called up if a mission required him
>
> I thought his story offered one of the few bright points, with the recommendation that his ablities would be a gift to fields like firefighting, rescue and recovery, hazmat handling etc.

...they can be drafted much the way you or I would be. In other words they would have to answer the call like any otrher citizen if a draft is instituted.


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