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Onslaught




I really find it odd how people don't think it is realistic that a dangerous criminal like Osborn could acheive such power. I mean, look through history! Hitler in Nazi germany was a complete madman, but due to events previous in germany he was able to take control. I could go on and on with a list of dictators etc but that wouldn't really prove my point. For example, after it was found that George Bush was wrong about WMD's in iraq, alot of people thought the guy was lying but he was still voted into power. I just find it really strange that poeple on these boards find it hard to beleive the public can be swayed so easily when it happens all the time in real life, and probably will continue to.


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Michael




> I really find it odd how people don't think it is realistic that a dangerous criminal like Osborn could acheive such power. I mean, look through history! Hitler in Nazi germany was a complete madman, but due to events previous in germany he was able to take control. I could go on and on with a list of dictators etc but that wouldn't really prove my point. For example, after it was found that George Bush was wrong about WMD's in iraq, alot of people thought the guy was lying but he was still voted into power. I just find it really strange that poeple on these boards find it hard to beleive the public can be swayed so easily when it happens all the time in real life, and probably will continue to.
Norman's a COP KILLER. Every police union in the country would protest if a cop killer was appointed to a position of authority in real life.
Michael


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CyberCoyote-=^..^-=

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> Norman's a COP KILLER. Every police union in the country would protest if a cop killer was appointed to a position of authority in real life.
> Michael
Signed

In fact the very govt officials that placed him in that spot did so to USE him as a pawn and supposedly had control over him. They obviously have no control over him at all, he seems to answer to absolutely no one, yet no one in the govt seems to think this is a bad idea? It's preposterous. Comparing him to Bush isn't fair at all, Bush may have made some poor decisions, but he never was a convicted felon or as Michael noted a known MURDERER.

The only out is to have the 'man behind the door' somehow manipulating the world's collective consciousness.




Pull List: Fantastic Four-Immortal Hulk-Capt America-Dr Strange- X-Men
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mjyoung




> > Norman's a COP KILLER. Every police union in the country would protest if a cop killer was appointed to a position of authority in real life.
> > Michael
> Signed
>
> In fact the very govt officials that placed him in that spot did so to USE him as a pawn and supposedly had control over him. They obviously have no control over him at all, he seems to answer to absolutely no one, yet no one in the govt seems to think this is a bad idea? It's preposterous. Comparing him to Bush isn't fair at all, Bush may have made some poor decisions, but he never was a convicted felon or as Michael noted a known MURDERER.
>
> The only out is to have the 'man behind the door' somehow manipulating the world's collective consciousness.



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Jared




> I really find it odd how people don't think it is realistic that a dangerous criminal like Osborn could acheive such power. I mean, look through history! Hitler in Nazi germany was a complete madman, but due to events previous in germany he was able to take control. I could go on and on with a list of dictators etc but that wouldn't really prove my point. For example, after it was found that George Bush was wrong about WMD's in iraq, alot of people thought the guy was lying but he was still voted into power. I just find it really strange that poeple on these boards find it hard to beleive the public can be swayed so easily when it happens all the time in real life, and probably will continue to.

The thing about Hitler was, no one really knew just how crazy he was when he first attained power. The Germans saw a guy who would rebuild the ruins of their country after the collapse of World War I, and restore their prosperity. How many ordinary Germans were aware of Hitler's ultimate goals is unclear, particularly when his major speeches emphasized the rebuilding of the country over anything else.

And don't forget, anti-Semitism was not frowned on in the 1930s the way it is today.

As for George W. Bush, many people probably elected him based on any number of issues, like agreeing with his security policies, his tax cuts, thinking that the U.S. was bringing freedom to Iraq even if Saddam didn't have any weapons. Even now, many Americans still associate Iraq with the war on terror, even if there were no actual WMDs found.

Norman Osborn is a completely different case. He is a known mass murderer who headed his own crime syndicates, and is a certifiable lunatic, whereas with Hitler most people at the time just saw a passionate, outspoken leader who promised to lead them out of the misery of the Great Depression.

Look at it this way. Would you appoint someone like Al Capone or John Gotti as the director of the FBI? Would you appoint Osama Bin Laden as director of the CIA or the Pentagon? Of course not, an action like that would be so stupid no one would ever seriously consider doing it.

And yet, against all logic and sane reason, the American government sees fit to place serial killers and psychopaths-I'm looking at you, Venom-who are known to have killed multiple people and many of whom have participated in plots threatening America's national security, as a de facto police force and superhuman army. 

For some bizarre, unfathomable reason, the public in the Marvel Universe, who have been repeatedly saved as a community by everyone ranging from the Avengers to the Fantastic Four to the X-Men and as individuals by everyone from Spider-Man to Iron Man to Sleepwalker, condemn these people for repeatedly putting their necks on the line and cheer the convicted murderers and terrorists who will save them from the big bad unregistered heroes. 
This is why I hate Civil War and the SHRA so much-they make absolutely no logical sense. 

Maybe Nitz the Bloody was on to something when he condemned the public in the Marvel Universe as a collection of idiots who make the citizens of Springfield on The Simpsons look intelligent. 


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But he was in prison when they got him for his new gig, wasn't he? Actually, how many trials do we get to see.. that might be a good series outside of the She-Hulk stuff: Law and Order Super-Criminal Intent? \:P





Pull List: Fantastic Four-Immortal Hulk-Capt America-Dr Strange- X-Men
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Nitz the Bloody





> Maybe Nitz the Bloody was on to something when he condemned the public in the Marvel Universe as a collection of idiots who make the citizens of Springfield on The Simpsons look intelligent. 

True, but I maintain that it's been that way since the 1960's ( when the Comics Code forbid explicit questioning of authority, though Stan and his collaborators snuck plenty of the implicit kind in ). The makeup of Springfield excluding Lisa may be more stupid than the real American people, but they're still satirizing the many forms of mass ignorance in the real world. The excesses of Homer and co. merely take it to a humorous extreme.

I have no problem with Marvel exaggerating the stupidity of the American people, because there's more than enough material to work with there. Ellis, the original author of Norman-as-legitimate-politician, did this especially well in Thunderbolts; Norman's serial killing as the Green Goblin being excused by a disease he overcame through prayer ( and while anyone who didn't get that reference wasn't paying attention, it still was a good way to satirize Christianity-as-arsehole license ). It's only when the satire is done badly, like Civil War, that it becomes a problem...



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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


>
> But he was in prison when they got him for his new gig, wasn't he? Actually, how many trials do we get to see.. that might be a good series outside of the She-Hulk stuff: Law and Order Super-Criminal Intent? \:P
>





- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Jared




>
> > Maybe Nitz the Bloody was on to something when he condemned the public in the Marvel Universe as a collection of idiots who make the citizens of Springfield on The Simpsons look intelligent. 
> True, but I maintain that it's been that way since the 1960's ( when the Comics Code forbid explicit questioning of authority, though Stan and his collaborators snuck plenty of the implicit kind in ). The makeup of Springfield excluding Lisa may be more stupid than the real American people, but they're still satirizing the many forms of mass ignorance in the real world. The excesses of Homer and co. merely take it to a humorous extreme.
> I have no problem with Marvel exaggerating the stupidity of the American people, because there's more than enough material to work with there. Ellis, the original author of Norman-as-legitimate-politician, did this especially well in Thunderbolts; Norman's serial killing as the Green Goblin being excused by a disease he overcame through prayer ( and while anyone who didn't get that reference wasn't paying attention, it still was a good way to satirize Christianity-as-arsehole license ). It's only when the satire is done badly, like Civil War, that it becomes a problem...

When it comes to exaggerating the stupidity of the public's reaction to anyone who looks even the slightest bit different (and your remarks about how mutants and other people like Spider-Man and the Hulk repeatedly suffer attacks for being 'different' could just as easily apply to Sleepwalker, who early in his career was confused and angered by the way people attacked him even after he'd rescued them from muggers or robbers, to the point where Alyssa Conover feared he'd stop altogether) then that's part and parcel of the Marvel tradition. 

I'd still argue, though, that that comparing Norman Osborn to Hitler is still a case of apples and oranges.  From everything I can recall, Hitler was not already known as a mass murderer and sociopathic criminal by the time he seized power (and things like the beer hall putsch could be easily spun as rebelling against the indolent and corrupt democracy he had seized power from in the beginning), while Norman is already a known criminal who's publicly known as having murdered multiple people.  Same thing with George W. Bush-and we'll stay the HELL away from discussing what kind of "crimes" he might or might not be responsible for-he's never killed anyone, never raped anyone, nothing like that. 

Even if Norman really had found God and turned over a new leaf, that still doesn't justify recruiting a collection of known criminals, many of whom are known serial killers or terrorists-and in the case of Venom, a known cop killer-and giving them official political power as law enforcement agents.  Ordinary, non-powered police departments and military organizations have sanity checks to filter out the lunatics who might try and enlist to get some destructive power...so how is it suddenly alright to suddenly put together a whole paramilitary unit of repeat offenders? 

It's like creating an entire Special Forces branch out of the lifers at Attica, headed by Charles Manson with David Koresh, Aileen Wuornos, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gein, the Columbine killers, and the Unabomber as his lieutenants.  A whole band of maniacs, sociopaths and high-risk offenders with official government sanction, legal access to firepower, and the ability to use it...
Someone care to explain how that's a good idea again? 

Then there's the fact that anyone who gets superhuman powers, even if it's completely by accident, ends up being required by law to join the Initiative and runs the risk of being called up for government service whether they like it or not...

This is a topic for another thread, but as a Canadian I'll just state that I never thought I'd see the day when (fictional) Americans would approve of laws requiring their fellow citizens to being called up for mandatory government service and being forced to use their abilities whether they wanted to or not, and generally being segregated from the rest of society.  I mean, even the Mutant Registration Act didn't state that mutants could run the risk of being called up at any time to use their powers in government service without giving them a choice in the matter! 


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Jared




>
> > Maybe Nitz the Bloody was on to something when he condemned the public in the Marvel Universe as a collection of idiots who make the citizens of Springfield on The Simpsons look intelligent. 
> True, but I maintain that it's been that way since the 1960's ( when the Comics Code forbid explicit questioning of authority, though Stan and his collaborators snuck plenty of the implicit kind in ). The makeup of Springfield excluding Lisa may be more stupid than the real American people, but they're still satirizing the many forms of mass ignorance in the real world. The excesses of Homer and co. merely take it to a humorous extreme.
> I have no problem with Marvel exaggerating the stupidity of the American people, because there's more than enough material to work with there. Ellis, the original author of Norman-as-legitimate-politician, did this especially well in Thunderbolts; Norman's serial killing as the Green Goblin being excused by a disease he overcame through prayer ( and while anyone who didn't get that reference wasn't paying attention, it still was a good way to satirize Christianity-as-arsehole license ). It's only when the satire is done badly, like Civil War, that it becomes a problem...


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mjyoung




I would love to hear them. Not trying to call you out or anything, but I generally love to hear new ideas, especially when people claim they are great.



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Onslaught




> I'd still argue, though, that that comparing Norman Osborn to Hitler is still a case of apples and oranges.  From everything I can recall, Hitler was not already known as a mass murderer and sociopathic criminal by the time he seized power (and things like the beer hall putsch could be easily spun as rebelling against the indolent and corrupt democracy he had seized power from in the beginning), while Norman is already a known criminal who's publicly known as having murdered multiple people.  Same thing with George W. Bush-and we'll stay the HELL away from discussing what kind of "crimes" he might or might not be responsible for-he's never killed anyone, never raped anyone, nothing like that. 

To start with Hitler. This guy acheived support by basically stating his intention to lead his country to war, he wanted 'living space' for his people and the only way to acheive that, as he clearly pointed out, was to invade to the east and west of his country's borders. Second of all he rallied support based on his theory of racism (white supremecy) and prejudice towards the jewish people. While the NAzi party had a voice in governemnt before they took power, they managed to take power gaining support based on these theories. True hitler was not a convicted murderer before he took power, but, what difference does it make if the whole premise of what you are about is to commit murder anyway? Those who supported hitler certainly didnt think he was a saint, or he was going to be when he took charge, they realised war and death would follow, it was the only logical consequence of his intended actions. I wasn't trying to directly compare norman to hitler, lol, merely trying to point out that when a group of people feel that the chips are down and there isn't another alternative they look to the radical to solve their problems. This is present throughout all of history, anceint and modern. WHen things go wrong people as a group look to the most effective method of saving themselves. Whther it be a nazi party, communist party or terrorist actions people will as a group while condone death to some extent to save themselves. Just as the people in the mu, who after just being invaded by aliens (WTF!!!) will look toward the one man who did the best job of stopping them in their eyes.
Lastly i was not saying GWB is a murderer or anything like that at all, he was proving the point too. WHether he lied to the american peope or not, the fact was that his actions had cost the lives of american troops and civilians in iraq. However when confronted with the choice of supporting him or chosing a new leader, the american people felt he was the best man (whether right or wrong) to do the job of fighting terrorism. They put certain feelings to the side and supported a man to fight the greater evil, just what is being done in the MU now. If people across the country can be whipped up into a fury about terrorism and allow their government to pass anti-democratic laws witholding the rights of suspected terrosits etc etc then it is not too far a stretch of the imagination that people might support norman after his actions in SI. It is natural in history for people to condone death and war to fight the greater evil. In the MU at this point the greater evil is preventing another alien attack and keeping those with powers under control, norman is in their eyes the best guy for the job.


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Jared




> I would love to hear them. Not trying to call you out or anything, but I generally love to hear new ideas, especially when people claim they are great.
>

And I'll be happy to repeat them.  This was originally posted back in April of 2008 on the Spider-Man forum regarding ways to undo Brand New Day and restore the spider-marriage, with a few updates here and there. 

http://www.comicboards.com/app/show.php?rpy=smb-2008040322574800

Keep in mind that I prefer the Brand New Day status quo to the JMS run, but here we go anyway.  For the purposes of this analysis, assume that most of what officially happened actually did happen, including Peter agreeing to the deal with Mephisto...

It begins with Peter Parker having increasingly haunted dreams, with something tormenting him that, for all his efforts, he can't identify. He starts to feel ill once again, the way he did at the beginning of The Other.

At first, Dr. Strange can't tell what's going on. But Peter's words make him stop and think: People are not acting like themselves, with their worst traits being magnified, causing them to sink slowly into evil.  Never before has the Hulk murdered people during his rampages, never would the worlds' most powerful heroes organize themselves into a secret, unaccountable cabal to wield their power with no check or balance on it. 

Meditating on the problem, Dr. Strange examines his own aura, and shudders at what he sees...

Sleepwalker reports disturbing things going on in the Mindscape, as human minds are beginning to act irrationally, almost as if their wills are being corrupted, even though they seem to be acting of their own conscious desires. As they were currently occupied with a massive invasion of the Mindscape by Nightmare, they could not devote their energies to find out what was going on with the human minds until now. Sleepwalker's kin have contacted him with the details.

It seems that some entity with which the Sleepwalkers are unfamiliar has been infecting the minds of many different humans, playing upon their darkest natures and wickedest subconscious desires. While the Sleepwalkers are formidable warriors when it comes to directly confronting demonic invasions and other physical entities that threaten human minds, they have a harder time dealing with external mystical influences they can't directly confront from the Mindscape, so they asked their kinsman trapped on Earth to pass the information along to Dr. Strange.

Reviewing the last several months, Dr. Strange uses the information the Sleepwalkers have given him to realize just how long this manipulation has been going on. The manipulations initially began in a place called Stamford, Conneticut. At first, the manipulations only affected the New Warriors and the supervillains there, but the mental trauma released by the events of the tragedy opened the way for the entity to begin manipulating those anguished minds, which began a spiralling pattern of anger and mistrust, that allowed the mysterious being to prey on the natural dark sides of many of Earth's heroes, that culminated in...

...Civil War.

The Civil War, the increasingly fascistic actions of Iron Man, the control of superheroes through forcing them to register, the launching of the Hulk into space and his rampage on his return, the Illuminati, the otherwise insane plan of recruiting murderous supervillains through the Thunderbolts, all of it came from Mephisto, who had found a surer and more subtle way to corrupt humans than by openly tempting them; make them destroy themselves by strengthening their most debased natures. Better yet, by keeping the heroes at each others' throats, it's less likely that they'll notice what he's up to.

What does all this have to do with Peter?

For all his manipulations in the Mindscape, Mephisto still has difficulty accessing the human world directly without the means to some contract. Hence his manipulations of Iron Man and Peter to motivate him into unmasking, which got Aunt May shot and killed, and Peter half out of his mind with grief...

...and along comes Mephisto, kindly offering to solve everything.

Spidey hasn't had much in the way of dealings with Mephisto, which makes him much easier to exploit than, say, Daredevil, Thor, Dr. Strange, or other prominent heroes. What he gets from Spider-Man's agreeing to his deal isn't really the marriage, which is just a cover for his REAL goal, which is to gain a proper foothold on Earth, which is what he has now...and from there practically free rein to operate on Earth on a grander scale

Unfortunately, there's a snag in Mephisto's plans. Spider-Man has wisened up to it, and now there's a hope, however faint, of stopping him. He's apparently become strong enough, through means unknown, to resist further attempts by Mephisto to manipulate him.

Here's where it gets interesting...

Spider-Man finally learns that Loki has been manipulating him for quite a while now. In truth, Loki was the one behind everything from the Totem, to Morlun, to Ezekiel, to Shathra and the events of The Other, and all the other mystical stuff Spidey's been going through. Loki put Spider-Man through all that to test his soul, to see how strong he was, and if he would be a worthy tool to oppose Mephisto. Killing and then "rebirthing" Spidey, pitting him against the catspaw Morwena, and everything else was to see how far Loki could push him without breaking. Ezekiel and others were meant to keep Spider-Man's guard down and distract him from what was really going on. 

Loki is trying to stop Mephisto not out of altruism, but because he bears the devil a grudge for various reasons, not the least of which is Loki's thinking that Mephisto is horning in on his "turf" by tricking humans, which, as the god of mischief, he views as his purview.

There are no Totems, there are no Ancients. All the mystical gobbledygook doesn't make sense because it wasn't supposed to-it was just Loki playing Spider-Man like a puppet. He chose the wall-crawler because, given Spider-Man's general lack of affiliation with the supernatural, he'd be one of the last heroes Mephisto would suspect. Unfortunately, Loki was too clever by half, as he toughened Spidey up to the point where he could see through Loki's illusions.
Needless to say, Spider-Man is outraged at being used and manipulated by two evil cosmic entities. He, Doctor Strange, Iron Man, and the other heroes realize how they've been played for fools, and nearly brought to destruction by their own darkest natures.

The breaches caused by Civil War are healed as Iron Man and Captain America (freed from Mephisto's realm) team up alongside Spidey, Thor and others to defeat Mephisto and Loki, and put an end to their sick, twisted games.

With the peoples' minds free of the influences of Mephisto, support for the Superhuman Registration Act plummets and every incarnation of it is quickly dismantled worldwide, as critics from every side of the political spectrum begin tearing it to shreds by pointing out its many, many logical fallacies.  While the public is still leery of superheroes and mutants, this is the way they have always been in the Marvel Universe and, for the reasons I cited before, would never support any idea of superhuman registration and giving governments what basically amount to super-powered armies.  The feeling is that, since they all operate independently of one another, none of them possesses enough power to threaten a legitimate government or impose a tyranny, even as legal experts cite the SHRA as unconstitutional, based on the fact that the Mutant Registration Act was previously repealed on the same grounds.  A sizable minority of the public also strongly supports superheroes in any event, viewing them in the same tradition as the gunfighters of the Old West, or a more modern incarnation like Paul Kersey or Dirty Harry, tough citizens who play by their own rules and strike back in defense of the little guys and the defenseless, the lone gunslingers who fight on behalf of truth and justice.  
 
Everything is back to the way it was...

...but now the ramifications of it all must still be dealt with. How do Tony Stark and Reed Richards look at themselves in the mirror, realizing how they had been played like fiddles by Mephisto? How does the superhero community cope with the hard feelings and deep divisions that still exist? How do they cope with the fact that so much public remains just as leery about superheroes and mutants in general? How does the Hulk cope with the destruction he wrought on Earth after his return?  The fallout from Stamford and Civil War, and the characters' actions, still exist, even if the large-scale changes no longer apply.


This new status quo would free writers and artists from the creative restrictions of superhuman registration, and otherwise provide plenty of fodder for the development of characters like Iron Man and the Fantastic Four, and explains why so many characters were acting so irrationally and otherwise out of character. 
 
Even the Hood was a stooge for Mephisto, the true owner of the cloak and boots he wears.  While wearing these infernal garments, the Hood made a perfect conduit through which Mephisto could exercise his influence and power over so many supervillains, many of whom would have otherwise never supported him, in effect making them a perfect slave army without even realizing it.  When Robbins accepted the presence of the demon within him, he implicitly signed over his soul.  There's still a chance for him to be redeemed, and to regain his old persona, but does he have the willpower to overcome the monster within? 
 
And don't forget the Hulk.  He's had enough to cope with in either fighting or embracing the monster within, and possibly to keep from sliding into true evil and becoming like the Maestro, a sadistic creature that actively uses his power to rule over the "puny humans" and make their lives a living hell.  He came very, very close...so where does that leave the Hulk and Mephisto? 


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Nitz the Bloody





If the basic blueprint for Civil War is " SHRA passes in wake of metahuman tragedy, inspires massive panic on all levels ", then I'd make the following changes...

-- The heroes are freaking out about the SHRA's existence before it passes. The X-Men are well aware of it, since it predicts a Days of Future Past scenario ( remember, in the original story, Kate Pryde recounted how the Sentinels killed all the non-mutant superheroes as well ). The Avengers are aware of it, but their reactions vary greatly; none of them wholly agree with it, but some don't see it as a big deal a 'la the America of Sinclair Lewis' " It Can't Happen Here ". The supervillains are going utterly nuts about it. The second the news hits the underworld, there's a widespread villain panic, and well-intentioned extremist bad guys ranging from Magneto* all the way down to Firebrand are getting more and more desperate. Heroes fully aware of the ramifications of the event like Iron Man don't entirely disagree with the villains on the issue, and they're getting more and more frustrated.

-- The circumstances of Stamford are much more complex and suspicious. This would not be a case of ill-trained New Warriors taking on a bad guy out of their league; in my version, we'd get mutants ( the catch-all persecuted minority for Marvel events ) as the heroes who fail. I'd imagine it as a squad of the X-Men student class running off to take down Nuke, and being obliterated in the process. The fact that it's mutant scapegoats ( similar to how 9/11 scapegoated Muslims ) makes the X-Men the first to receive blame; the other superhumans actually come to the X-Men's defense, and the result is that superhumans at large are targeted.

-- Tony Stark's role is radically altered. Instead of immediately joining with the bad guys without even trying to beat them, Tony's the one who smells a rat. Tragedy and civilian casualties are nothing new in his line of work, but this seems orchestrated. There's too much coincidence; why would the heroes, even young and impetuous ones, manage to even get near Nuke ( who's probably on multiple SHIELD Most Wanted lists )? Why would Nuke be hanging out near a schoolyard? Why are the records for Miriam Sharpe, the first sympathetic parent figure to come forward, so nebulous? Tony spearheads the charge to find out the truth with a level of fantaticism not seen since the Armor Wars.

-- Cap's role is changed, because while Iron Man plays the bad cop who breaks fingers for information, he has to be the good cop. Cap's trying damage control for the public, trying to use his patriotic messiah status to return favor to the heroes. He's not terribly successful with it, and he's cracking up in his own way; how can his country be responsible for allowing this to happen?

-- The change in the villain/hero dynamic that occured in Dark Reign happens here; the heroes are on the run from the law, and the villains get jobs. But since it's too much of a stretch even for Marvel to think that you could make Venom into a beloved children's toy, the villains are repurposed; instead of just being given nano-chains, their free will is basically erased. They're effective zombies, expendable troops targeted at the heroes. 

-- There is plenty of hero-v.-hero strife, but it's not a heavy-handed political allegory so much as breaking from the stress. The Fantastic Four face internal dysfunction because the Richards kids are targets as well, and being on the lam is no place to raise a child. The Avengers' make-up is shaken by the fact that a lot of the heroes don't want to defend a public that fears and hates them. And solo heroes like Spider-Man face the worst difficulties ever; a " Marvel Knights " arrangement of urban heroes forms out of necessity, even when it becomes more and more apparent that they can't work together.

-- The story resolves with the X-Men leading the charge against the SHRA. Before, they were the outcasts while the other superhumans were treated like royalty. Now that all of the genetically abnormal individuals are targets, the X-Men are the ones with experience as being the rebel force. This is a turning point for the mutant stories; they finally start to get the recognition they deserve, since their courage and skill is noticed now that the playing field is level.

-- In the end, the SHRA is repealed, but there's quite a bit of damage to repair in terms of public perception and personal trauma. And there's no crossover immediately following this one...



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Jared




>
> If the basic blueprint for Civil War is " SHRA passes in wake of metahuman tragedy, inspires massive panic on all levels ", then I'd make the following changes...

I love it, and I would have paid in full for the whole crossover if it worked this way. 

It's sad when fanfiction writers like you and me, or my friends in my own fanfiction community, are coming up with better material for free than all these supposedly hotshot creators, that's both more respectful of the characters as a whole and of better quality to boot. 

Bonus points for not turning Iron Man into Iron Fascist. 
 
Just two questions, though-since you mentioned that Iron Man smelled a rat, what did he eventually find out?  Who was behind the actual plot?  The Red Skull?  Doctor Doom?  Baron Von Strucker?  The Skrulls?  The Leader?  The Mandarin?  The Mad Thinker? 

Second question: when you mention "Nuke", are you talking about the Daredevil Nuke, or are you talking about Nitro?  If the former, what did Nuke do that caused so much death and destruction? 


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Nitz the Bloody




Thanks; if you think my fanfic ideas are good, then my original comic work ( linked in my sig ) should be awesome. This logic in no way represents a swollen ego. \:P

> Just two questions, though-since you mentioned that Iron Man smelled a rat, what did he eventually find out?  Who was behind the actual plot?  The Red Skull?  Doctor Doom?  Baron Von Strucker?  The Skrulls?  The Leader?  The Mandarin?  The Mad Thinker? 

The public villain Henry Peter Gyrich, taking his grudge against superhumans as far as he could. This wouldn't have the out of him being flooded with mind-controlling nanites, either; he'd actually go through with it. The real villain would be Mr. Sinister, who I actually think has a lot of potential despite years of being in lame-ass stories. Sinister manipulates things out of a detached amusement, mixed with Apocalypse's " Strong survive " genocidal motives ( except that Sinister knows this is a complete mockery of Darwin; he just wants to see what the best bloodlines are by rooting out the weak, and he doesn't hide that he wants this because he's an evil bastard. Look at the name ).

Megalomaniacs like the Mandarin, the Red Skull, and the Leader would use this the perfect opportunity to let loose their doomsday plans. With the heroes hiding out from their government, they face little obstructions. What might be neat would be for international heroes ( Winter Guard, Triumph Divison ) to have to step up; they're just as capable as the American heroes, but with American arrogance losing its justification, they, like the X-Men, get their day in the sun.

Doctor Doom and Magneto join the heroes. Doom, because he doesn't want to be deprived of the right to defeat Reed Richards on his terms, and Magneto because even his homo superior elitism could not make him stand by and see people persecuted.

Alien characters would not be involved; the heroes I imagine being involved in this crossover would be more like the Ultimate Universe makeup ( mutants and humans with powers ). One thing that made the Ultimate Universe suited to these sorts of stories was that cosmic and supernatural elements were kept to a minimum, and sidelined when necessary.

> Second question: when you mention "Nuke", are you talking about the Daredevil Nuke, or are you talking about Nitro?  If the former, what did Nuke do that caused so much death and destruction? 

Nitro, oops. Nuke is still dead ( and that ridiculous Wolverine: Origins story with him never happened in my mind ).



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