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Jeff Harey


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 490


I remember after Crisis Of Infinite Earths that two creators/contributors to the old DC Multiverse, Gardner Fox and E. Nelson Bridwell, died soon after and DC didn't care enough to send representation to the latter's funeral.
I guess the regime behind Marvel will be as callous to their remaining founding fathers/key contributors Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, John Romita, Sr. and Roy Thomas. Why not, since they are destroying their legacy?
It makes me wonder why Marvel bothered settling with the Kirby estate since they are cancelling FF/destroying the rest of Kirby's co-legacy.




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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,011



    Quote:
    I remember after Crisis Of Infinite Earths that two creators/contributors to the old DC Multiverse, Gardner Fox and E. Nelson Bridwell, died soon after and DC didn't care enough to send representation to the latter's funeral.
    I guess the regime behind Marvel will be as callous to their remaining founding fathers/key contributors Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, John Romita, Sr. and Roy Thomas. Why not, since they are destroying their legacy?
    It makes me wonder why Marvel bothered settling with the Kirby estate since they are cancelling FF/destroying the rest of Kirby's co-legacy.


Considering nothing has happened yet I do not see why anybody is getting worked up over nothing. I think there will be the collapsing of realities and then be shifted back.

The FF thing is sort of dumb for the reasons that they did it. But it is not like the series has been that good in a while. Hickman's run was pretty good but since then Fractions was pretty forgettable and so on.

Never fully understood the devotion to Kirby either. The guy was great and great at what he did but given his work is part of the MU it exists outside of him.




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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


On the contrary I think that Fantastic 4 has been very good for quite some time, however like many titles 'good' does not necessarily equate to 'popular'.

I dont think Marvel will destroy the legacy of the Marvel Universe, although I do think it will be significantly altered.

Characters origins will be shifted in time - so Stark will have always been injured in Afghanistan, the Punisher will have always been a Gulf Veteran, Hulk and the F4 wont have received their powers as a result of the cold war arms/space race, Nick Fury will have always been black etc.

Alot of peripheral characters will probably cease to exist in the short term, perhaps to be introduced at a later date as and when needed.

I also think it is inevitable that the comics universe will be brought more in line with the cinematic universe (I actually think that is the main principle behind the whole change) in order to try and attract in some of those millions of movie fans who dont currently read comics. I dont think it will actually work, but thats a different debate.

Most of Marvels main characters will still be easily recognised as those we currently know and love, but with various differences - most subtle, but perhaps some a little more drastic.

Continuity will however essentially cease to exist. I have no doubt that everything that has happened in 75 years of Marvel comics so far will be essentially erased and consigned as having never happened in the first place as the publisher attempts to write a new, more streamline, more convenient, more profitable history for itself.

Personally i think its very sad, and i am already satisfied that I will not be maintaining my current very significant investment in Marvels comics. Certainly very few of the Secret Wars titles interest me.


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The Black Guardian

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Posts: 26,169


I wasn't much of a fan of Hickman's FF, but Fraction obliterated it (quite possibly the most boring run of FF I've ever read). Robinson hasn't been bad. He just doesn't have the star quality that Hickman does.

Anyway... I certainly hope Marvel isn't as callous when the older bullpen passes on. I think we've changed as a culture since the mid-80s, and they just wouldn't do things like that today.

Yes, Marvel seems to be dumping a lot of Kirby-isms, but then seems to be pushing Inhumans (another Kirby thing).




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Comicguy1




I must have really missed something. Did they pull another Clone Saga, or One More Day? How did they ruin any legacy?


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Jeff Harey


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 490


They've ruined it by giving the likes of Brian Bendis and Mark Milliar the writing reigns of most of the Marvel Universe. This Secret Wars will put it in its grave.



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The Black Guardian

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Well, they are razing a great swath of entities created by some of the founders of Marvel, like the Living Tribunal, Eternity, the Celestials. They don't seem to want these creations around for the foreseeable future, and perhaps ever.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,658



    Quote:
    Well, they are razing a great swath of entities created by some of the founders of Marvel, like the Living Tribunal, Eternity, the Celestials. They don't seem to want these creations around for the foreseeable future, and perhaps ever.


Give me a break. All these characters are going to be back after Secret Wars ends. I swear, sometimes fans just like to gripe. We haven't seen what's going to happen yet and everyone assumes the worst. Marvel is going to spit on Stan Lee's grave is what the OP is saying. I guarantee you when Stan Lee dies, you're going to see tons of tributes in the comics.




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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,102


I don't think the legacy aspect will end. That doesn't mean the same thing as ending one era to start a new one. For my money that Marvel style ended well over a decade ago. I have said Marvel should start over because the old style Marvel which so many of us love is gone and the medium has a completely different way of looking at what comics are for and how they should be used. Continuity and characterization were a bedrock that under penned that style. After over fifty years maybe it is time to do what Stan,Jack, and all those that came into the fold after did and break the mold and try to do something fresh. We love the era past but I think allowing it to become history will not tarnish the legacy. Indeed in these days people will have access to those decades material far easier and I think it will always remain held in high esteem. I have to say though whether current Marvel can pull it off or even really stick to such a company wide idea is dubious. As others have pointed out it will surely end up as at most a partial reboot and we know how well that works from D.Cs. problems. It will probably be used to bring the comics more inline with the movies. Honestly it sounds like they are doing Ultimate Universe all over again as opposed to really becoming a new 616. Battleworld will sell huge so Marvel will have a lot of momentum heading into the new M.U. and I guess it is a matter of wait and see.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I remember after Crisis Of Infinite Earths that two creators/contributors to the old DC Multiverse, Gardner Fox and E. Nelson Bridwell, died soon after and DC didn't care enough to send representation to the latter's funeral.
    I guess the regime behind Marvel will be as callous to their remaining founding fathers/key contributors Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, John Romita, Sr. and Roy Thomas. Why not, since they are destroying their legacy?
    It makes me wonder why Marvel bothered settling with the Kirby estate since they are cancelling FF/destroying the rest of Kirby's co-legacy.


Marvel and this Secret Wars crap should be rebuked. Or abjured. Anyone else up for a good abjuring?


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I must have really missed something.


I would say so.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/rip-the-marvel-universe-1961-2015#.yw0ZZQmJX6


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Reverend Meteor







    Quote:
    Continuity will however essentially cease to exist. I have no doubt that everything that has happened in 75 years of Marvel comics so far will be essentially erased and consigned as having never happened in the first place as the publisher attempts to write a new, more streamline, more convenient, more profitable history for itself.


Yep. I expect Spider-Man's parents to be NSA agents by July, She-Hulk to be a transgendered Chinese woman by Thanksgiving, and Thor to be muslim by Christmas.


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zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 527


I'll be picking up a lot of this Secret Wars stuff, mostly because it looks like it will be a good end cap to my collection. We have to wait until we read it, of course, but in my mind, this is how the Marvel Universe ends.

From here on out, I'll probably be putting lots of money into back issues.


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


I reckon I'll be giving most of it a miss.

Looks like the whole Secret Wars thing is just a free for all where anything that can happen will due to the fact that the publishers ultimately know that it wont mean a thing when all of reality is erased.

Its been highlighted many times in the past that Marvels big events have little meaning, well this will be the very definition of that - so whats the point?


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jcampie





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I remember after Crisis Of Infinite Earths that two creators/contributors to the old DC Multiverse, Gardner Fox and E. Nelson Bridwell, died soon after and DC didn't care enough to send representation to the latter's funeral.
      I guess the regime behind Marvel will be as callous to their remaining founding fathers/key contributors Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, John Romita, Sr. and Roy Thomas. Why not, since they are destroying their legacy?
      It makes me wonder why Marvel bothered settling with the Kirby estate since they are cancelling FF/destroying the rest of Kirby's co-legacy.



    Quote:
    Marvel and this Secret Wars crap should be rebuked. Or abjured. Anyone else up for a good abjuring?


Feel free to sign me up.


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,169


And according to those in power there is no "after." This is the new state of things for the foreseeable future. This is only likely to change if there is a significant regime change at Marvel.

Secret Wars will only be lasting 2-3 months. Battleworld is here for the long haul. And no Tribunal, Celestials, Eternity, etc. is just how things will be from now on.




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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


The writing is on the wall.

Marvel has made no secret of their desire to synergise their products, and have started some of that work with the likes of Nick Fury Jnr, the new SHIELD, the new Nova and numerous more cosmetic changes, but in order to complete that plan to the best of their ability that means some major changes, and I dont think its unrealistic to suggest that will happen.

A more streamlined, less convoluted Marvel universe where each of the characters have updated origins and where the heroes and teams look more like their movie counterparts is almost an inevitability at this point.


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Gernot 

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Location: St. Louis, MO
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Posts: 12,418


B-but Thor's a DISNEY PRINCESS now! They won't change her into anything ELSE, will they??? ;\)



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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 559


So true.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    And according to those in power there is no "after." This is the new state of things for the foreseeable future. This is only likely to change if there is a significant regime change at Marvel.




    Quote:
    Secret Wars will only be lasting 2-3 months. Battleworld is here for the long haul.


Didn't I say that a while back and you told me I was wrong? O\:\>


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    The writing is on the wall.



    Quote:
    Marvel has made no secret of their desire to synergise their products, and have started some of that work with the likes of Nick Fury Jnr, the new SHIELD, the new Nova and numerous more cosmetic changes, but in order to complete that plan to the best of their ability that means some major changes, and I dont think its unrealistic to suggest that will happen.



    Quote:
    A more streamlined, less convoluted Marvel universe where each of the characters have updated origins and where the heroes and teams look more like their movie counterparts is almost an inevitability at this point.


I expect a lot of white characters are about to die and be replaced with minorities.

Every time DC does a reboot they replace more classic characters with minority inheritors or just change the characters ethnicity.

Reverend Meteor (I'll never forget you Serifan and that time you were erased in that Crisis of Infinite Diversity)



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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,169


Yes.

I do see it both ways though. I do think things will eventually return to the iconic multiverse we've always had (because I really don't see Battleworld being sustainable in the long run), but it'll be a long, long, long time. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath.

Regardless of that, even temporarily killing these cosmic entities destroys the legacy, imo.




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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Yes.


2love


    Quote:
    I do see it both ways though. I do think things will eventually return to the iconic multiverse we've always had (because I really don't see Battleworld being sustainable in the long run), but it'll be a long, long, long time. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath.


I'm not saying you're wrong about how sustainable it is. But I really feel like Marvel's pride isn't going to let them reverse this any time soon. Look how long it took DC to bring back Supergirl or reveal Clark was Superboy when he was a teenager.

Marvel's going to refuse to believe they made a mistake.



    Quote:
    Regardless of that, even temporarily killing these cosmic entities destroys the legacy, imo.


No argument there.



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Comicguy1




It's pretty hard to blame him for this. Any of it. Letting popular writers write books that sell is in no way, shape or form ruining anything. You might not like the stories, which is fine, but writers and editors come and go all the time. It's nothing outrageous.


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Comicguy1




I mean, these characters will be back, obviously. Yeah, they're some of my favorites too, but if Marvel can ruin other classic deaths (Like Bucky, Elektra, Captain Marvell, etc.) and people can get over it, what's the difference with this? Almost anything in comics can be undone. Killing off characters hardly ruins the Marvel Universe, and if the direction is unpopular, then they'll just change it back.


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,169


Killing them off destroys their mystique thus ruining the entire concept and pretty much the bedrock of the Marvel Universe.

It's completely irrelevant that they'll potentially be back. If anything, them coming back just makes it all worse.




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Jeff Harey


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 490


The Fantastic Four is being cancelled due to damage suffered under Milliar and Matt Fraction.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Killing them off destroys their mystique thus ruining the entire concept and pretty much the bedrock of the Marvel Universe.



    Quote:
    It's completely irrelevant that they'll potentially be back. If anything, them coming back just makes it all worse.


I'm thinking we're going to be getting different iterations of the cosmic beings we know.

The cosmic beings were often manifestation of some aspect of the universe. Now that we're getting a new hodgepodge universe where I assume reality works somewhat differently maybe our old cosmic beings are going to be reincarnated/re-envisioned in new forms. Those old avatars that the cosmic entities used to interface with the old universe are gone...they might have to take on a new form.

Reverend Meteor (come on Black Galactus with an afro)



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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,169



    Quote:
    I'm thinking we're going to be getting different iterations of the cosmic beings we know.

    The cosmic beings were often manifestation of some aspect of the universe. Now that we're getting a new hodgepodge universe where I assume reality works somewhat differently maybe our old cosmic beings are going to be reincarnated/re-envisioned in new forms. Those old avatars that the cosmic entities used to interface with the old universe are gone...they might have to take on a new form.

Forms are meaningless. Unless they're performing the same functions, their mystique is dead. And if they are, they may as well not have been killed in the first place.


    Quote:
    Reverend Meteor (come on Black Galactus with an afro)

Hey, OG appears however the viewer wants him to appear. I'm 100% certain T'Challa sees him Black.




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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


F4 has struggled for sales throughout the nearly 20 years that I've been reading it, it isnt being cancelled because of the 'damage' done by anyone.

Its just one of those titles like the Punisher that appears to have had its hay-day back in another decade and is simply struggling to remain relevant and popular in the modern market.


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


The popularity of Marvel movies is hurting Marvel comics as an art form, as the publishers forgo artistic merit in favour of trying to reel in the generally more superficial movie-going audience and their shorter attention span.

Changing the ethnicity of characters in TV and the movies is a common practice, and I expect that whatever changes are made in Marvels movies will ultimately be reflected in their comics. So I have no doubt that when the dust settles on Secret Wars Nick Fury will have always been black, as will Heimdall, Nova will have always been hispanic, along with whoever else Marvel decide to change in their quest to pay lip-service to the idea of minority representation.


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