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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


Axel Alonso is gone. Bendis is gone. Both are big proponents of having diverse characters. Bendis sheparded Miles Morales and Jessica Jones. Axel Alonso sheparded Ms. Marvel, the new Captain Marvel, the Reyes Ghost Rider. Now they're gone and the guy who said that "Diversity doesn't sell" and who argued with Bendis and Alonso in public about it, is still there. Oh yeah, and they hire Ron Richards, a serial abuser and harasser in a VP role. And with CB Cebulski coming in as EIC who wants to bring back old 1980s Marvel, with no real vision...it just strikes me as Marvel hustling to not reach out to new and different voices. Cebulski is an expendable part of Marvel...he's going to rely on marketing to tell him to edit comics. And the guy who said, "Diversity doesn't sell" is going to be throwing out interesting stuff for same old, same old.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of things to not like Axel Alonso and Bendis for: Secret Empire is top on my list of "WTF?" But this strikes me as "We are going to end up fridging and obscuring a lot of minorities and women soon."


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Axel Alonso is gone. Bendis is gone. Both are big proponents of having diverse characters. Bendis sheparded Miles Morales and Jessica Jones. Axel Alonso sheparded Ms. Marvel, the new Captain Marvel, the Reyes Ghost Rider. Now they're gone and the guy who said that "Diversity doesn't sell" and who argued with Bendis and Alonso in public about it, is still there. Oh yeah, and they hire Ron Richards, a serial abuser and harasser in a VP role. And with CB Cebulski coming in as EIC who wants to bring back old 1980s Marvel, with no real vision...it just strikes me as Marvel hustling to not reach out to new and different voices. Cebulski is an expendable part of Marvel...he's going to rely on marketing to tell him to edit comics. And the guy who said, "Diversity doesn't sell" is going to be throwing out interesting stuff for same old, same old.



    Quote:
    Don't get me wrong, plenty of things to not like Axel Alonso and Bendis for: Secret Empire is top on my list of "WTF?" But this strikes me as "We are going to end up fridging and obscuring a lot of minorities and women soon."


As long as the ones they fridge are the new characters and not old ones like Rhodey I'm fine with it.

Next time they do a diversity push they can actually include their established characters like Misty Knight instead of benching their classic characters in favor of new teen versions.





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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,952



    Quote:
    Axel Alonso is gone. Bendis is gone. Both are big proponents of having diverse characters. Bendis sheparded Miles Morales and Jessica Jones. Axel Alonso sheparded Ms. Marvel, the new Captain Marvel, the Reyes Ghost Rider. Now they're gone and the guy who said that "Diversity doesn't sell" and who argued with Bendis and Alonso in public about it, is still there.


Who was that?

As for diversity selling - I was just looking at this:
Top 300 Comics October

I'm impressed by how well Jane-Thor, Riri, Spider-Gwen and Laura-Wolverine sold last month.

But then I look at September:
Top 300 Comics September

Those four books did nowhere near as well in September. So I would have to say that without an event, diversity doesn't sell.


    Quote:
    Oh yeah, and they hire Ron Richards, a serial abuser and harasser in a VP role.


I never heard of him. But unless he's a complete moron, he will continue offering diversity IF diversity sells - which, I think, it doesn't.


    Quote:
    And with CB Cebulski coming in as EIC who wants to bring back old 1980s Marvel, with no real vision...


I don't think we know what his vision is. But we know the 1980s were pretty strongly pro-diversity for Marvel. Chris Claremont loved diversity and his X-books were sales powerhouses.

Here's the thing: However stupid this may be, comic fans in general want their diversity ON TEAMS, not in solo books. The Avengers and the X-Men can be stuffed to overflowing with women, and with women and men of color, and with women and men of non-hetero persuasion. The books will sell and the characters will be popular. But try to make some of these characters solo stars and you will fail far more than you succeed. Oh, and it goes without saying that the diverse teams must nevertheless feature white males in the line-up.


    Quote:
    Cebulski is an expendable part of Marvel...he's going to rely on marketing to tell him to edit comics.


If he actually uses marketing, he'll be more successful than the current paradigm, which basically views the comics as promotional vehicles for the movies and TV shows. Imagine if Marvel only greenlighted comics that they actually believed would sell 70,000+ copies!


    Quote:
    Don't get me wrong, plenty of things to not like Axel Alonso and Bendis for: Secret Empire is top on my list of "WTF?" But this strikes me as "We are going to end up fridging and obscuring a lot of minorities and women soon."


I really doubt it. But we'll see the cancellation or revamping of books that don't sell.






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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,145



    Quote:
    Axel Alonso is gone. Bendis is gone. Both are big proponents of having diverse characters. Bendis sheparded Miles Morales and Jessica Jones. Axel Alonso sheparded Ms. Marvel, the new Captain Marvel, the Reyes Ghost Rider. Now they're gone and the guy who said that "Diversity doesn't sell" and who argued with Bendis and Alonso in public about it, is still there. Oh yeah, and they hire Ron Richards, a serial abuser and harasser in a VP role. And with CB Cebulski coming in as EIC who wants to bring back old 1980s Marvel, with no real vision...it just strikes me as Marvel hustling to not reach out to new and different voices. Cebulski is an expendable part of Marvel...he's going to rely on marketing to tell him to edit comics. And the guy who said, "Diversity doesn't sell" is going to be throwing out interesting stuff for same old, same old.



    Quote:
    Don't get me wrong, plenty of things to not like Axel Alonso and Bendis for: Secret Empire is top on my list of "WTF?" But this strikes me as "We are going to end up fridging and obscuring a lot of minorities and women soon."


I imagine that sort of reach is not just going to away. I just imagine that we will probably see original characters step up again. I hope that we see most of the new characters still play a role.

I feel this was always a complicated issue in some respects. Just because the original character did not go away. So, eventually there is going to be a fair number of strange arguments about using a given name.




Look Raist bunnies...
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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,952



    Quote:
    I imagine that sort of reach is not just going to away. I just imagine that we will probably see original characters step up again. I hope that we see most of the new characters still play a role.


I think Jane Foster will die of cancer. Because for some reason no force in the multiverse can beat cancer. The Odinson will take back Mjolnir and his comic but I probably won't be interested. He hasn't been my Thor since JMS.

I think Riri may spin off into her own comic titled "Ironheart" which will sell 70,000+ copies of its first issue and then immediately drop to 35,000 copies for its second issue if it's lucky. Nevertheless, since Bendis won't be writing it, I may start following the comic. I guess Tony Stark will return and take over his own comic again. But I'm not sure I care. We'll see.

As for Laura/Wolverine - I'm hoping "The Wolverines" will be the new title of the book and will feature classic Logan, Laura, and Gabby - because, let's face it, classic Logan has always been at his best when acting as a gruff father figure to young women/girls.

I think Old Man Logan will pull a Flash and sacrifice himself to save reality.

I'm hoping Weapon H will get his own book. A grim grey Hulk with claws is what the world needs right now. I'm a thousand times more interested in this than I will ever be in Amadeus Cho. Bruce Banner may get his own book back but I'm not sure I care. We'll see.


    Quote:
    I feel this was always a complicated issue in some respects. Just because the original character did not go away. So, eventually there is going to be a fair number of strange arguments about using a given name.


I'm very curious how Laura and classic Logan will handle the name thing. As noted, I'm hoping they'll call themselves "The Wolverines" and form a small team with Gabby along for the ride.






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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 4,141



1. Tony lapses into the bottle and Rhodey takes over as Iron Man. Tony recovers, builds a new suit and returns as Iron Man but Rhodey would also still suit up at times. Then Rhodey nearly gets fried in the damaged armor, refuses to suit up again (can't blame him for that) but still serves as a support character for years until Tony builds the WAR MACHINE.

2. Hal Jordan resigns as GL, John Stewart takes over. At the end of the Crisis HAL is a GL again, but John doesn't get retired. At least not until Sinestro caused the implosion of the CPB until the Guardians later returned to repair it.


3. John walker takes over as the 5th Captain America. Rogers eventually reclaims his identity and Walker becomes the US Agent


4. Danny Ketch is the GR of the 90's but Blaze shows up first as hunter then supporter. Then years later Blaze is GR again and Danny is shoved aside (boo!)

5. Ben Reilly would have likely stuck around after the Clone Saga 2 ended, but they wanted to definitely show he was the clone and the best proof is to have him crumble to ash after being mortally wounded.

6. Eric Masterson took over as THOR on Earth with THOR's blessing until ODIN intervened and gave Masterson the Thunderstrike mace instead.




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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,611


I think Marvels idea of what constitutes 'diversity' is suspect at best.

First of all, you don't introduce diversity to make a profit - you do it because it has moral importance.

There's no loyalty and very little morality in business - just the bottom line - and these guys are as prone to the chop as anyone else regardless of the moral importance of diversity.

Secondly, diversity isn't taking a minority character, giving him the name, costume, gimmick, and support cast of a successful mainstream character, and hoping that he can be dragged along on the coat-tails of his success. Thats literally the least diverse thing you can do.

No, diversity is about letting people stand on their own merits - not someone else's.

Calling a book about a young, female named 'Ironheart', 'Ironman' is an example of prioritising marketing and brand recognition - not diversity. We want to tell you how important this character is, but shes not important enough to use her own name, because the name of the white guy she replaced makes more money.

Killing of the original Nick Fury in order to try and achieve (by their own admission) greater corporate synergy by introducing a new, black Nick Fury is NOT diversity...

Finally, it doesn't matter how diverse the Marvel Universe is if its not an interesting place, and many of these new characters quite simply aren't anywhere near as interesting as the ones they replaced.

They have been promoted almost entirely on their census traits of being young, female, black, latino, or gay, rather than because they are exciting and interesting. No one has ever been interested in a hero primarily because of what boxes they tick on a national census. Never has a title sold primarily because of the colour of the main characters skin, or their gender.

Marvels attitude to creative talent is the same. Theyre quick to court the mainstream media and let them know that theyve got a female, gay, or ethnic minority young-adult fiction writer on one of their comics, but dont seem to care if they are familiar with the comics medium, or can write pre-existing characters they have no prior knowledge of.

Just like with the characters, it is not enough that the creators are 'diverse', they must also be talented and experienced.






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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,611


Regardless of the issue of diversity, we currently have Logan, Old Man Logan, Lauran, Daken, Jimmy Hudson, and now Gabby all running around the same time and place with claws on their hands.

Thats just stupid, and cheapens the idea of these characters being unique or interesting.

The same applies to a lesser degree to most of Marvels most popular characters. Having multiple versions of them active at the same time only makes them less interesting.


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,611


Lets be perfectly frank here, they killed of Rhodes because there was no way that they could promote Tony Starks new black friend if his old black friend was still on the block.

If ever there was a male equivalent of 'women in refridgerators', Rhodes death is that.

How diverse is that?

Diversity at Marvel has become a marketing tool, not the moral responsibility it should be.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,489


Yes, but serving as a supporting character really isn't sticking around, and does nothing to solve the problem that needs to be addressed.


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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,952



    Quote:
    Lets be perfectly frank here, they killed of Rhodes because there was no way that they could promote Tony Starks new black friend if his old black friend was still on the block.


I was wondering where Rhodes was, given the Punisher story line currently under way.


    Quote:
    If ever there was a male equivalent of 'women in refridgerators', Rhodes death is that.


Why can't Tony have two black friends? I don't get it. More to the point, Rhodes is in the movies. I never would have dreamed he'd get killed in the comics.


    Quote:
    How diverse is that?


Anti-diverse, if your speculation is accurate.


    Quote:
    Diversity at Marvel has become a marketing tool, not the moral responsibility it should be.


Personally, I would rather diversity be perceived not as a marketing tool, nor even as a moral responsibility, but as an aesthetic preference. Who wants to look at nothing but white males all day long? The Punisher TV series is aesthetically effective for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the inclusion of five prominent female characters, three of whom are white, while the other two are Farsi.






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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,952



    Quote:
    Regardless of the issue of diversity, we currently have Logan, Old Man Logan, Lauran, Daken, Jimmy Hudson, and now Gabby all running around the same time and place with claws on their hands.


I think Marvel is trying to replicate the Bat Family. I remember the old days when a person could buy a Bat Family or a Superman Family giant-size comic. I liked those days. I would buy a Wolverine Family giant-size comic.

In any case, I'm interested in all of the above characters except Old Man Logan, who has never been anything but a stand-in for classic Logan. I'm all in for Laura and Gabby. I'm on the fence regarding Daken but I'm teetering toward liking him. Jimmy Hudson interests me because he seems to lack the single-mindedness of the others. He seems more like a normal person.

Let's not forget Weapon H. I love that guy and hope to see him again soon.


    Quote:
    Thats just stupid, and cheapens the idea of these characters being unique or interesting.



    Quote:
    The same applies to a lesser degree to most of Marvels most popular characters. Having multiple versions of them active at the same time only makes them less interesting.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    Personally, I would rather diversity be perceived not as a marketing tool, nor even as a moral responsibility, but as an aesthetic preference. Who wants to look at nothing but white males all day long? The Punisher TV series is aesthetically effective for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the inclusion of five prominent female characters, three of whom are white, while the other two are Farsi.


I think people want diversity if it seems organic. If it seems ham fisted or a cynical ploy to tap into a demographic's money people don't like it.

Like I hate all the new minority replacement characters except Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers. But I always loved when books like the New Warriors or X-Men related teams made their minority members into compelling characters (the Avengers always seemed to struggle with doing that and with the nature of the Fantastic Four it didn't come up much).

I like diversity if it seems genuine. One of my favorite scenes in a comic ever was Night Thrasher and Rage scattering the pictures of Rage's murdered grandmother off the Eiffel Tower so she could see Paris in New Warriors #39 (Elvin had bought her a eiffel tower statuette in a previous issue for Christmas because she had always wanted to go to paris). If I feel the characters are genuine and not a marketing ploy I'll become emotionally invested.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    I think Marvels idea of what constitutes 'diversity' is suspect at best.



    Quote:
    First of all, you don't introduce diversity to make a profit - you do it because it has moral importance.



    Quote:
    There's no loyalty and very little morality in business - just the bottom line - and these guys are as prone to the chop as anyone else regardless of the moral importance of diversity.



    Quote:
    Secondly, diversity isn't taking a minority character, giving him the name, costume, gimmick, and support cast of a successful mainstream character, and hoping that he can be dragged along on the coat-tails of his success. Thats literally the least diverse thing you can do.



    Quote:
    No, diversity is about letting people stand on their own merits - not someone else's.



    Quote:
    Calling a book about a young, female named 'Ironheart', 'Ironman' is an example of prioritising marketing and brand recognition - not diversity. We want to tell you how important this character is, but shes not important enough to use her own name, because the name of the white guy she replaced makes more money.



    Quote:
    Killing of the original Nick Fury in order to try and achieve (by their own admission) greater corporate synergy by introducing a new, black Nick Fury is NOT diversity...



    Quote:
    Finally, it doesn't matter how diverse the Marvel Universe is if its not an interesting place, and many of these new characters quite simply aren't anywhere near as interesting as the ones they replaced.



    Quote:
    They have been promoted almost entirely on their census traits of being young, female, black, latino, or gay, rather than because they are exciting and interesting. No one has ever been interested in a hero primarily because of what boxes they tick on a national census. Never has a title sold primarily because of the colour of the main characters skin, or their gender.



    Quote:
    Marvels attitude to creative talent is the same. Theyre quick to court the mainstream media and let them know that theyve got a female, gay, or ethnic minority young-adult fiction writer on one of their comics, but dont seem to care if they are familiar with the comics medium, or can write pre-existing characters they have no prior knowledge of.



    Quote:
    Just like with the characters, it is not enough that the creators are 'diverse', they must also be talented and experienced.


Honestly the Super Friends were more on the ball with diversity than modern comics. Sure the minority members had gimmicky powers and the characters were forgettable. But at least they had their own identities. (well ok not the Wonder Twins...but they don't count)







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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,489


Okay, I'm absolutely sure you're joking with this. You have to be.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,284


To an extent, it is good to have diversity, but it probably is true that it doesn't sell (To my knowledge, the guy who said that clarified his statement, and I think that it maybe came out the wrong way.). At the big two, it seems that only certain books, titles, events and characters sell, so they pretty much have to go back to the old standbys. Superior Spider-man was very successful, but then people wanted Peter back, etc. And so it goes. The good news though, is that Miles and Jessica (And a few others.) seem to be sticking around.


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Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 793



    Quote:



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Personally, I would rather diversity be perceived not as a marketing tool, nor even as a moral responsibility, but as an aesthetic preference. Who wants to look at nothing but white males all day long? The Punisher TV series is aesthetically effective for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the inclusion of five prominent female characters, three of whom are white, while the other two are Farsi.



    Quote:
    I think people want diversity if it seems organic. If it seems ham fisted or a cynical ploy to tap into a demographic's money people don't like it.



    Quote:
    Like I hate all the new minority replacement characters except Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers. But I always loved when books like the New Warriors or X-Men related teams made their minority members into compelling characters (the Avengers always seemed to struggle with doing that and with the nature of the Fantastic Four it didn't come up much).



    Quote:
    I like diversity if it seems genuine. One of my favorite scenes in a comic ever was Night Thrasher and Rage scattering the pictures of Rage's murdered grandmother off the Eiffel Tower so she could see Paris in New Warriors #39 (Elvin had bought her a eiffel tower statuette in a previous issue for Christmas because she had always wanted to go to paris). If I feel the characters are genuine and not a marketing ploy I'll become emotionally invested.


How do you define "organic" or "genuine"?

And speaking of Rage, wasn't his first appearance complaining to Cap about how there were no black Avengers? If you did something that like today, people would complain about SJWs ruining comics.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





    Quote:
    How do you define "organic" or "genuine"?


1. A minority character is an original...i.e. they didn't inherit a legacy name

That's really like my only rule on the matter. If you're an original character and are not created solely to be a replacement of someone else then I really don't have a problem. Create all the minority or female characters you want. Marvel has plenty of good ones and I am fine with them getting a push (including Sam Wilson).



    Quote:
    And speaking of Rage, wasn't his first appearance complaining to Cap about how there were no black Avengers? If you did something that like today, people would complain about SJWs ruining comics.


You're right. I liked Rage better when he was in the New Warriors. His Avengers appearances could be...off putting. I still liked them though. He had a viewpoint that was true (the Avengers historically DID NOT like diversity) even if it was inconvenient for the Avengers to hear about. Complaining about diversity in the New Warriors was less of an issue. Avengers was the premiere super hero team of the world while the New Warriors were nobodies who no one paid attention to anyways.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Okay, I'm absolutely sure you're joking with this. You have to be.


What? The super friends had Asian, black, and native american members who were invited to at least 30% of the missions. How could I joke about that? They're trail blazers.





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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,952



    Quote:
    I think people want diversity if it seems organic. If it seems ham fisted or a cynical ploy to tap into a demographic's money people don't like it.


I tend to agree. Definitely about the ham fisted part. I think the cynical ploy part is hard to get our arms around. I guess maybe Jane-Thor was a cynical ploy. But I don't really feel that way. It was certainly an attempt to get girls to buy Marvel comics or at least, maybe, Marvel toys. But what makes it cynical?


    Quote:
    Like I hate all the new minority replacement characters except Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers. But I always loved when books like the New Warriors or X-Men related teams made their minority members into compelling characters (the Avengers always seemed to struggle with doing that and with the nature of the Fantastic Four it didn't come up much).


Team books have always been the place where diversity could be explored at great length and depth. Maintain a core of white males and then toss in whatever you can dream up. Aliens, robots, Africans, lots of girls, knock yourself out.


    Quote:
    I like diversity if it seems genuine. One of my favorite scenes in a comic ever was Night Thrasher and Rage scattering the pictures of Rage's murdered grandmother off the Eiffel Tower so she could see Paris in New Warriors #39 (Elvin had bought her a eiffel tower statuette in a previous issue for Christmas because she had always wanted to go to paris). If I feel the characters are genuine and not a marketing ploy I'll become emotionally invested.


I think the whole marketing ploy angle becomes most pronounced when attempted with solo books. The original Ms. Marvel was unabashedly a marketing ploy, as were Luke Cage and and Shang-Chi, though the latter two are among my favorite characters of all time.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think people want diversity if it seems organic. If it seems ham fisted or a cynical ploy to tap into a demographic's money people don't like it.



    Quote:
    I tend to agree. Definitely about the ham fisted part. I think the cynical ploy part is hard to get our arms around. I guess maybe Jane-Thor was a cynical ploy. But I don't really feel that way. It was certainly an attempt to get girls to buy Marvel comics or at least, maybe, Marvel toys. But what makes it cynical?



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Like I hate all the new minority replacement characters except Sam Wilson and Carol Danvers. But I always loved when books like the New Warriors or X-Men related teams made their minority members into compelling characters (the Avengers always seemed to struggle with doing that and with the nature of the Fantastic Four it didn't come up much).



    Quote:
    Team books have always been the place where diversity could be explored at great length and depth. Maintain a core of white males and then toss in whatever you can dream up. Aliens, robots, Africans, lots of girls, knock yourself out.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I like diversity if it seems genuine. One of my favorite scenes in a comic ever was Night Thrasher and Rage scattering the pictures of Rage's murdered grandmother off the Eiffel Tower so she could see Paris in New Warriors #39 (Elvin had bought her a eiffel tower statuette in a previous issue for Christmas because she had always wanted to go to paris). If I feel the characters are genuine and not a marketing ploy I'll become emotionally invested.



    Quote:
    I think the whole marketing ploy angle becomes most pronounced when attempted with solo books. The original Ms. Marvel was unabashedly a marketing ploy, as were Luke Cage and and Shang-Chi, though the latter two are among my favorite characters of all time.


And I'm fine with Luke Cage and Shang Chi. They're originals. Ms. Marvel is one of those female derivatives of the male hero characters that are kind of annoying. But I genuinely liked her as a supporting character for Mar-Vell. I thought she was better BEFORE she became a hero.





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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,611


You want a diverse Marvel title, go and read 1990's 'New Warriors' volume 1.

One of the most diverse casts you'll ever see, brilliant stories, and not a hint of an agenda unless you count environmentalism.

Modern Marvel are too bust trying to kiss the ass of the mainstream media to show the world what stand-up guys they are, that they forgot to make their stuff interesting, and their books positively ooze agenda.


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The Black Guardian

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,489


They're also some of the most offensive ever created.

And don't forget the Mexican.


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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,429



The difference is that most of your examples were unforced and had organic storytelling that lead to those changes.


    Quote:

    1. Tony lapses into the bottle and Rhodey takes over as Iron Man. Tony recovers, builds a new suit and returns as Iron Man but Rhodey would also still suit up at times. Then Rhodey nearly gets fried in the damaged armor, refuses to suit up again (can't blame him for that) but still serves as a support character for years until Tony builds the WAR MACHINE.


Rhodey was Tony's right hand man and a trained soldier. It only made sense that he would fill the role of Iron Man in Tony's troubled time.


    Quote:
    2. Hal Jordan resigns as GL, John Stewart takes over. At the end of the Crisis HAL is a GL again, but John doesn't get retired. At least not until Sinestro caused the implosion of the CPB until the Guardians later returned to repair it.


The nature of the power in which the Green Lantern works makes it possible that anyone worthy of the power could weild the ring. It has been that way since Hal first received the ring.


    Quote:

    3. John walker takes over as the 5th Captain America. Rogers eventually reclaims his identity and Walker becomes the US Agent


Captain America is a product of the USA, his image was an American creation. They owned his namesake and shield. When they deemed someone else was a better candidate, there was nothing Steve Rogers could do.


    Quote:

    4. Danny Ketch is the GR of the 90's but Blaze shows up first as hunter then supporter. Then years later Blaze is GR again and Danny is shoved aside (boo!)


Ghost Rider is a curse that anyone suited for the demon could inherit.


    Quote:
    5. Ben Reilly would have likely stuck around after the Clone Saga 2 ended, but they wanted to definitely show he was the clone and the best proof is to have him crumble to ash after being mortally wounded.


Like you've stated he was a "clone" of Peter Parker.


    Quote:
    6. Eric Masterson took over as THOR on Earth with THOR's blessing until ODIN intervened and gave Masterson the Thunderstrike mace instead.


Eric Masterson was one worthy to posses the power of Thor, yet that did not make him Thor. I don't think he ever referred to himself as Thor, however I could be wrong. Similar to the Green Lantern ring, it's possible for anyone qualified to gain that power of Thor, and that has been that way from day one. Again, weilding the power of Thor does not make one Thor himself.






He's... A Man-like MONSTER... an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because of HIS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!!
Gamma Ra - Keeper of Secrets
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Carter




Dude: you're not making any sense.

Just 'cause those two are gone doesn't mean it's all KKK and White supremacy here on out. Marvel had Ororo Monroe and the Black Panther and Sam Wilson and so on so on long before Alonso and Bendis were even out of diapers.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    You want a diverse Marvel title, go and read 1990's 'New Warriors' volume 1.


I already mentioned that run somewhere else in this thread. That's my favorite comic series. (well when Nicieza wrote it)


    Quote:
    One of the most diverse casts you'll ever see, brilliant stories, and not a hint of an agenda unless you count environmentalism.





    Quote:
    Modern Marvel are too bust trying to kiss the ass of the mainstream media to show the world what stand-up guys they are, that they forgot to make their stuff interesting, and their books positively ooze agenda.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    They're also some of the most offensive ever created.



    Quote:
    And don't forget the Mexican.


I had actually forgotten El Dorado altogether. But Apache Chief was my favorite.





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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,415


From the point of view of an European, I think that DC tend to create universal heroes whereas Marvel tend to create US-centric heroes (except the mutant characters).

For example, Superman & Batman are universal characters, whereas Captain America & Spider-Man are American characters (but are still very popular around the world).

Marvel Comics have always been centered on the USA, and even more on the East Coast of the USA, and even more on New York.

Superman & Batman are in fictitious cities (Metropolis & Gotham). On the contrary, Spider-Man is the friendly neighbourhood hero of NY.

It may explain why, many times, when Marvel try to include diversity, it is clunky, heavy-handed, goofy, etc. because it mirrors the stereotypes that a local guy might believe about foreigners/different people.

For example, my own country, France in Marvel comics.

Who's the most famous French character in Marvel comics ?
Batroc the Leaper ...

Who are the most prominent French characters in DC comics ?
Belphegor
Nightrunner
Henri Ducard
Mademoiselle Marie

But let's be honest. I am very severe. There are important exceptions. The main one is the X-verse. Since 1975, the X-books have been about diversity and are about mankind as a whole.

Also, characters such as the Black Panther are important and they are Marvel characters. So, of course, what I am saying is far from totally true.

And, of course, the MCU films are a success everywhere in the world.

Still, I think that Marvel Comics have never been subtle on the topic of diversity or, at least, as subtle as the distinguished competition.

It may explain why there have been so many heated discussions & reactions these last years about the new characters.

By the way, I like a lot Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel. I think that Carol being Captain Marvel is legitimate (and it should have happened decades ago ! She is the 3rd female Captain Marvel, not the 1st !).

But should Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel be included in a topic about diversity ?

I don't think so. She is an extremely beautiful blonde woman who looks like a young Jean Harlow, Charlize Theron, Robin Wright, Heather Graham, Naomi Watts or Cate Blanchett.

In other words, the classic archetype of feminine beauty canon in the fairytales of westerners (and which came from the Anglo-Saxons, Franks & Norsemen) !

Only Marvel could have the nerve to sell Carol Danvers as a shining example of diversity ! Lol !!! \:\-D

Also, I think that killing James Rhodes was a huge mistake.
He should come back, as soon as possible.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    From the point of view of an European, I think that DC tend to create universal heroes whereas Marvel tend to create US-centric heroes (except the mutant characters).


As an American I would have to agree with that assessment.



    Quote:
    For example, Superman & Batman are universal characters, whereas Captain America & Spider-Man are American characters (but are still very popular around the world).




    Quote:
    Marvel Comics have always been centered on the USA, and even more on the East Coast of the USA, and even more on New York.



    Quote:
    Superman & Batman are in fictitious cities (Metropolis & Gotham). On the contrary, Spider-Man is the friendly neighbourhood hero of NY.



    Quote:
    It may explain why, many times, when Marvel try to include diversity, it is clunky, heavy-handed, goofy, etc. because it mirrors the stereotypes that a local guy might believe about foreigners/different people.



    Quote:
    For example, my own country, France in Marvel comics.



    Quote:
    Who's the most famous French character in Marvel comics ?
    Batroc the Leaper ...


The only other two I can think of are your namesake and Peregrine. And as I understand it Peregrine is not even a french word.

I think there is a British corner of the Marvel Universe thanks to Excalibur and the Marvel UK stuff but the rest of Europe is really an untapped resource. And Marvel characters rarely go to Africa except to go to Wakanda. Same for South America...no one in Marvel goes there except to made up countries. Every now and then people will go to China, Japan or Vietnam but that's about it in Asia.

I think the decision to create all these fictional countries has sort of left the comic versions of the real countries rather underdeveloped. Like what goes on in Belgium in the Marvel universe? I don't think I've ever seen a Marvel story in Belgium except maybe an Invaders related story set in WW2.


    Quote:
    Who are the most prominent French characters in DC comics ?
    Belphegor
    Nightrunner
    Henri Ducard
    Mademoiselle Marie


And the only one I knew of was Ducard...


    Quote:
    But let's be honest. I am very severe. There are important exceptions. The main one is the X-verse. Since 1975, the X-books have been about diversity and are about mankind as a whole.


Yeah but your point is valid. Outside of the X-books you don't see a lot of attention paid to non American characters. I mentioned somewhere else in the thread how diverse the New Warriors are...ethnically they are but almost everyone I can think of is still an American. (Tai was Cambodian I guess but she doesn't count)


    Quote:
    Also, characters such as the Black Panther are important and they are Marvel characters. So, of course, what I am saying is far from totally true.


It would be nice to have an African character from a real country in Africa. I mean even Storm was born in America.

DC has that Batwing guy from the Democratic Republic of Congo.


    Quote:
    And, of course, the MCU films are a success everywhere in the world.



    Quote:
    Still, I think that Marvel Comics have never been subtle on the topic of diversity or, at least, as subtle as the distinguished competition.



    Quote:
    It may explain why there have been so many heated discussions & reactions these last years about the new characters.



    Quote:
    By the way, I like a lot Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel. I think that Carol being Captain Marvel is legitimate (and it should have happened decades ago ! She is the 3rd female Captain Marvel, not the 1st !).



    Quote:
    But should Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel be included in a topic about diversity ?



    Quote:
    I don't think so. She is an extremely beautiful blonde woman who looks like a young Jean Harlow, Charlize Theron, Robin Wright, Heather Graham, Naomi Watts or Cate Blanchett.





    Quote:
    In other words, the classic archetype of feminine beauty canon in the fairytales of westerners (and which came from the Anglo-Saxons, Franks & Norsemen) !


She does look like the Aryan ideal...


    Quote:
    Only Marvel could have the nerve to sell Carol Danvers as a shining example of diversity ! Lol !!! \:\-D



    Quote:
    Also, I think that killing James Rhodes was a huge mistake.
    He should come back, as soon as possible.








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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,489



    Quote:
    By the way, I like a lot Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel. I think that Carol being Captain Marvel is legitimate (and it should have happened decades ago ! She is the 3rd female Captain Marvel, not the 1st !).

    But should Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel be included in a topic about diversity ?

    I don't think so. She is an extremely beautiful blonde woman who looks like a young Jean Harlow, Charlize Theron, Robin Wright, Heather Graham, Naomi Watts or Cate Blanchett.

    In other words, the classic archetype of feminine beauty canon in the fairytales of westerners (and which came from the Anglo-Saxons, Franks & Norsemen) !

    Only Marvel could have the nerve to sell Carol Danvers as a shining example of diversity ! Lol !!! \:\-D

"Diversity" isn't just about ethnicity. Gender applies, as well. If it's not straight, white, fully able, Christian, and male, it's part of the diversity hodge-podge. All female characters count.


    Quote:
    Also, I think that killing James Rhodes was a huge mistake.
    He should come back, as soon as possible.

Yeah. No question.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,489


Askari the Spear - Zanzibar's president is a mutant with Harpoon-like energy blasts

Lightbright - horrible name, but Somali mutant part of Wild Pack at times.

Oya (Idie Kwonkwo) - X-Men student is Nigerian. And she's often been a bone of contention for me, because she's been portrayed as far too Westerized and far too sexualized.

Moses Magnum - Ethiopian

But yes, we need more. Many, many more.


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