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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 4,292


Okay the thread below is getting a bit lengthy so I figured I'd post this here.

Years ago in the Golden Age there was an android Human Torch. He overloaded and shut down in the 50's and was gathering dust.

Timely Comics becomes Marvel Comics.

The Fantastic Four are created and Johnny Storm is now the human torch.

Years later in FF annual 4, the Mad Thinker reactivated the android Torch and he fight Johnny and ends up deactivated again. His body is left in the Thinker's lab by Reed as Reed stated a lab was where he was born and should rest......okay that is just stupid writing. Reed should have at least taken the android Torch to FF HQ for storage and study.

In the Submariner series at the time, around issue 14 (I think), the Torch's old partner Toro was lured into a trap by the Thinker who had somehow enslaved a town and staged a funeral for the android Torch as bait. Toro gets captured and enslaved, breaks free and perishes in a fiery explosion as he attempted to destroy the Thinker's rocket ship.
Go figure....a character with immunity to fire and can absorb flame/heat killed in a fiery explosion.......


So we have the android Torch buried for years in a forgotten and unknown grave in a small town cemetery and of course the town's memory of it is wiped.

Yet Ultron apparently confronted the Thinker, Ultron wanted an android to make as his own and Thinker tells him of the lab where the Torch was left after his failed attack on the FF. Ultron finds the Torch there and takes him to Horton for reformatting and the Vision is created.

Thus the Torch is gone forever.....yet there is a Torch in that grave.

Slight oversight by the writers and editors perhaps? \:\)

Hence comes Immortus as that plot device to fix this error by using his time powers to temporally replicate the Torch. One Torch becomes the Vision and the other lays dormant for years until the Avengers West Coast find him and switch him back on.

Thus the explanation Hank Pym had in Avengers West 50 of Vision being built from spare parts of the Torch is tossed out and the Ultron reformatting the Torch origin is essentially restored.

The Torch that became the Vision was rebuilt and reformatted by Ultron with assist from Horton who was killed by Ultron.


Truly this is as big a Gordian Knot as the continuity/retcons to Captain America and the Red Skull from the Golden Age to the Marvel Universe.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Okay the thread below is getting a bit lengthy so I figured I'd post this here.



    Quote:
    Years ago in the Golden Age there was an android Human Torch. He overloaded and shut down in the 50's and was gathering dust.



    Quote:
    Timely Comics becomes Marvel Comics.



    Quote:
    The Fantastic Four are created and Johnny Storm is now the human torch.



    Quote:
    Years later in FF annual 4, the Mad Thinker reactivated the android Torch and he fight Johnny and ends up deactivated again. His body is left in the Thinker's lab by Reed as Reed stated a lab was where he was born and should rest......okay that is just stupid writing. Reed should have at least taken the android Torch to FF HQ for storage and study.



    Quote:
    In the Submariner series at the time, around issue 14 (I think), the Torch's old partner Toro was lured into a trap by the Thinker who had somehow enslaved a town and staged a funeral for the android Torch as bait. Toro gets captured and enslaved, breaks free and perishes in a fiery explosion as he attempted to destroy the Thinker's rocket ship.
    Go figure....a character with immunity to fire and can absorb flame/heat killed in a fiery explosion.......



    Quote:

    So we have the android Torch buried for years in a forgotten and unknown grave in a small town cemetery and of course the town's memory of it is wiped.



    Quote:
    Yet Ultron apparently confronted the Thinker, Ultron wanted an android to make as his own and Thinker tells him of the lab where the Torch was left after his failed attack on the FF. Ultron finds the Torch there and takes him to Horton for reformatting and the Vision is created.



    Quote:
    Thus the Torch is gone forever.....yet there is a Torch in that grave.



    Quote:
    Slight oversight by the writers and editors perhaps? \:\)


Is that really a mistake by the writers?

Englehart says Jim was reformatted into Vision. Presumably in his version of events the Thinker dug Jim up.

Byrne says Torch wasn't reformatted into Vision and is buried in a cemetery. That's just a new piece of information offered by Byrne and not really a mistake on his or Englehart's part is it?




    Quote:
    Hence comes Immortus as that plot device to fix this error by using his time powers to temporally replicate the Torch. One Torch becomes the Vision and the other lays dormant for years until the Avengers West Coast find him and switch him back on.



    Quote:
    Thus the explanation Hank Pym had in Avengers West 50 of Vision being built from spare parts of the Torch is tossed out and the Ultron reformatting the Torch origin is essentially restored.



    Quote:
    The Torch that became the Vision was rebuilt and reformatted by Ultron with assist from Horton who was killed by Ultron.



    Quote:

    Truly this is as big a Gordian Knot as the continuity/retcons to Captain America and the Red Skull from the Golden Age to the Marvel Universe.








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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    Okay the thread below is getting a bit lengthy so I figured I'd post this here.



    Quote:
    Years ago in the Golden Age there was an android Human Torch. He overloaded and shut down in the 50's and was gathering dust.



    Quote:
    Timely Comics becomes Marvel Comics.



    Quote:
    The Fantastic Four are created and Johnny Storm is now the human torch.



    Quote:
    Years later in FF annual 4, the Mad Thinker reactivated the android Torch and he fight Johnny and ends up deactivated again. His body is left in the Thinker's lab by Reed as Reed stated a lab was where he was born and should rest......okay that is just stupid writing. Reed should have at least taken the android Torch to FF HQ for storage and study.


Leaving him with the Thinker was insanity.


    Quote:
    In the Submariner series at the time, around issue 14 (I think), the Torch's old partner Toro was lured into a trap by the Thinker who had somehow enslaved a town and staged a funeral for the android Torch as bait. Toro gets captured and enslaved, breaks free and perishes in a fiery explosion as he attempted to destroy the Thinker's rocket ship.
    Go figure....a character with immunity to fire and can absorb flame/heat killed in a fiery explosion.......


The Thinker was getting a lot of page space back then.


    Quote:

    So we have the android Torch buried for years in a forgotten and unknown grave in a small town cemetery and of course the town's memory of it is wiped.


Wait! What? Where/when was this revealed?


    Quote:
    Yet Ultron apparently confronted the Thinker, Ultron wanted an android to make as his own and Thinker tells him of the lab where the Torch was left after his failed attack on the FF. Ultron finds the Torch there and takes him to Horton for reformatting and the Vision is created.


Would have made a cool Japanese cartoon.

I'm over being annoyed by this. It did nothing for the Vision as a character but I guess it did something for the Human Torch as a character. It provided closure as to what happened to his body.


    Quote:
    Thus the Torch is gone forever.....yet there is a Torch in that grave.



    Quote:
    Slight oversight by the writers and editors perhaps? \:\)



    Quote:
    Hence comes Immortus as that plot device to fix this error by using his time powers to temporally replicate the Torch. One Torch becomes the Vision and the other lays dormant for years until the Avengers West Coast find him and switch him back on.


So the whole reason for doing the Torch/Vision story goes out the window. Did Jim Hammond join the West Coast Avengers?

Wait - is it easy to switch Jim Hammond back on? Could Reed have done it? The Thinker did it.


    Quote:
    Thus the explanation Hank Pym had in Avengers West 50 of Vision being built from spare parts of the Torch is tossed out and the Ultron reformatting the Torch origin is essentially restored.


Oh! So Avengers West Coast initially tried to say the Vision wasn't actually a rebuilt Torch. Ultron just found some parts and used them.


    Quote:
    The Torch that became the Vision was rebuilt and reformatted by Ultron with assist from Horton who was killed by Ultron.


Because there were two Torches. Because Immortus.


    Quote:

    Truly this is as big a Gordian Knot as the continuity/retcons to Captain America and the Red Skull from the Golden Age to the Marvel Universe.


So here's my question:

We have the Vision. We have the Human Torch. Both are active in the present day at this time if I'm understanding you right.

Why do we need Simon Williams?








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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 4,292


The Avengers Forever 12 issues series offers explanations in issue 8 regarding Vision and Jim, and how what happened with Vision and Scarlet Witch was indeed a long plot of Immortus



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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 4,292


Avengers West Coast #42 Byrne has taken over the book and thus starts Vision Quest.

Vision has gone missing and the trail leads them to a govt. facility where the Vision is in pieces, his synthetic skin floating in a tube and his memory banks including all back ups at Avengers HQ are WIPED.

They get explanations and out is brought an older but still alive Horton who states the Vision IS NOT THE TORCH.

Teh Scarlet Witch is horrified to say the least. Pym rebuilds the Vision but his skin is now chalk white (think Data from TNG) and though Pym recosntructed the data of Vision's programming, Wonder Man would not let himself be copied again because he loves Wanda.

Wanda under goes more trauma as she is possessed by an alien parasite then later becomes a bride of Set in Atlantis Attacks.

Vision Quest culminates in Avengers West Coast 50 where the clues lead them to the secret grave of the Torch that the Thinker created way back in Submariner 14 (1966) to trap and enslave TORO. Pym is speaking to the mayor to get permission to exhume the grave even though there is no memory or record of the grave.

The Scarlet Witch at this point is now NOT a model of mental health and is becoming as arrogant as her father magneto and imperiously waves her hand and her hex powers flip the switch as it were and The Torch bursts out his grave. Wonder Man cashes him, convinces him to return and he and the Vision meet each other.

Pym later concludes Ultron built Vision from spare parts of the Torch.

Avengers Forever #8 gives a full explanation of how Immortus replicates the Torch and why....to ensure Wanda never has kids of her own due to the power they'd wield. Vision and the Torch were merely pawns to Immortus, nothing more. We also learn the history of the Space Phantom and all the times the Phantom(s) attacked the Avengers and how a Phantom was disguised as Horton to sow the seeds of confusion about Vision not being the Torch.

Ultron took the Torch that was in the lab after FF annual 4, Immortus then placed the other torch in that lab and made sure the Thinker would find it and come up with the plan to ensare Toro, and bury the Torch.

Reed Richards could easily have studied and repaired the Torch just as the Thinker did. Pym also knows the Vision and Torch's construction rather well.

For full data on Torch and his apparent present status:

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Torch_(Android)_(Earth-616)

As to Wonder Man, he's become a character in his own right and he is the original Simon Williams, while Vision was a copy at best.


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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,317



    Quote:
    So here's my question:



    Quote:
    We have the Vision. We have the Human Torch. Both are active in the present day at this time if I'm understanding you right.



    Quote:
    Why do we need Simon Williams?


Wonder Man is a character of his own, and gets bonus points for having been created by Stan Lee (Simon's first appearance in Avengers #8 was drawn by the often underappreciated Don Heck, but according to wikipedia Jack Kirby also had a hand in his creation). Eventually he was brought back in 1972 and since then must have racked up more on-panel appearances than the original Human Torch.

Simon Williams is a character of his own with his own personal connections, notably to his villainous brother, the Grim Reaper, and his long-running friendship with his fellow Avenger, the Beast (recently featured again in Uncanny Avengers). Simon may not be the most popular Avengers, but he has fans.



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,317



    Quote:
    Okay the thread below is getting a bit lengthy so I figured I'd post this here.


Okay, I'll join you here, but will include some stuff that is not covered by your heading...


    Quote:
    Years ago in the Golden Age there was an android Human Torch. He overloaded and shut down in the 50's and was gathering dust.



    Quote:
    Timely Comics becomes Marvel Comics.



    Quote:
    The Fantastic Four are created and Johnny Storm is now the human torch.



    Quote:
    Years later in FF annual 4, the Mad Thinker reactivated the android Torch and he fight Johnny and ends up deactivated again. His body is left in the Thinker's lab by Reed as Reed stated a lab was where he was born and should rest......okay that is just stupid writing. Reed should have at least taken the android Torch to FF HQ for storage and study.



    Quote:
    In the Submariner series at the time, around issue 14 (I think), the Torch's old partner Toro was lured into a trap by the Thinker who had somehow enslaved a town and staged a funeral for the android Torch as bait. Toro gets captured and enslaved, breaks free and perishes in a fiery explosion as he attempted to destroy the Thinker's rocket ship.
    Go figure....a character with immunity to fire and can absorb flame/heat killed in a fiery explosion.......


AFAIK that was in Sub-Mariner #15 (1969).


    Quote:

    So we have the android Torch buried for years in a forgotten and unknown grave in a small town cemetery and of course the town's memory of it is wiped.



    Quote:
    Yet Ultron apparently confronted the Thinker, Ultron wanted an android to make as his own and Thinker tells him of the lab where the Torch was left after his failed attack on the FF. Ultron finds the Torch there and takes him to Horton for reformatting and the Vision is created.


I've now checked in Wonder Man's wikipedia article and then in the extremely comprehensive The Official Marvel Index to The Avengers #3 (1987).

It turns out that the Vision having Simon Williams' memories actually dates back to the classic "Even an Android Can Cry" (Avengers #58, 1968) by Roy Thomas and John Buscema. (I hadn't re-read that story in ages and so had forgotten those details). This contains a flashback to Wonder Man's death (Avengers #9) which retcons in that Iron Man and Hank Pym (as Giant-Man) recorded his brain patterns and put them into storage in Pym's lab for the eventuality that they would find a way of reviving Wonder Man's body. We also see the origin of Ultron-1, which ends with ends with Ultron hypnotizing his "father" Hank Pym to forget about him and into abandoning his lab. In #58 Hank Pym (as Goliath) discovers the gap in his own memories in the course of the examination of the Vision (he talks about his old synthozoid experiments and then is stumped for an answer when Hawkeye asks what their ultimate results were) and decides to revisit his abandoned, boarded-up lab. Using the memory bank there, he sees what happened when he built Ultron-1. Iron Man then discovers that the tape with Wonder Man's memories is missing, and the Avengers come to the conclusion that the Vision is a synthetic body with Wonder Man's mind. (Okay, that may be based on circumstantial evidence, but it's good enough for comicbooks).


    Quote:

    Truly this is as big a Gordian Knot as the continuity/retcons to Captain America and the Red Skull from the Golden Age to the Marvel Universe.





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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    Avengers West Coast #42 Byrne has taken over the book and thus starts Vision Quest.



    Quote:
    Vision has gone missing and the trail leads them to a govt. facility where the Vision is in pieces, his synthetic skin floating in a tube and his memory banks including all back ups at Avengers HQ are WIPED.



    Quote:
    They get explanations and out is brought an older but still alive Horton who states the Vision IS NOT THE TORCH.



    Quote:
    Teh Scarlet Witch is horrified to say the least. Pym rebuilds the Vision but his skin is now chalk white (think Data from TNG) and though Pym recosntructed the data of Vision's programming, Wonder Man would not let himself be copied again because he loves Wanda.


Copied again. When was he copied the first time and why? Which story, which writer, what probably flimsy explanation?


    Quote:
    Wanda under goes more trauma as she is possessed by an alien parasite then later becomes a bride of Set in Atlantis Attacks.



    Quote:
    Vision Quest culminates in Avengers West Coast 50 where the clues lead them to the secret grave of the Torch that the Thinker created way back in Submariner 14 (1966) to trap and enslave TORO. Pym is speaking to the mayor to get permission to exhume the grave even though there is no memory or record of the grave.



    Quote:
    The Scarlet Witch at this point is now NOT a model of mental health and is becoming as arrogant as her father magneto and imperiously waves her hand and her hex powers flip the switch as it were and The Torch bursts out his grave. Wonder Man cashes him, convinces him to return and he and the Vision meet each other.



    Quote:
    Pym later concludes Ultron built Vision from spare parts of the Torch.



    Quote:
    Avengers Forever #8 gives a full explanation of how Immortus replicates the Torch and why....to ensure Wanda never has kids of her own due to the power they'd wield. Vision and the Torch were merely pawns to Immortus, nothing more. We also learn the history of the Space Phantom and all the times the Phantom(s) attacked the Avengers and how a Phantom was disguised as Horton to sow the seeds of confusion about Vision not being the Torch.



    Quote:
    Ultron took the Torch that was in the lab after FF annual 4, Immortus then placed the other torch in that lab and made sure the Thinker would find it and come up with the plan to ensare Toro, and bury the Torch.


The convolutions are breathtakingly relentless.


    Quote:
    Reed Richards could easily have studied and repaired the Torch just as the Thinker did. Pym also knows the Vision and Torch's construction rather well.


So Reed leaving the Torch with the Thinker was sheer insanity, as I originally thought.


    Quote:
    For full data on Torch and his apparent present status:



    Quote:
    http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Human_Torch_(Android)_(Earth-616)



    Quote:
    As to Wonder Man, he's become a character in his own right and he is the original Simon Williams, while Vision was a copy at best.


That sentence is why I hate the Simon Williams permutation to the story. Without it, the Vision could one day have had his gem removed and returned to his Torch personality, while retaining his memories and feelings up to that point. He would have been the Torch (mentally and emotionally) and he also would have been in love with Wanda and a dedicated Avenger while having memories of being friends with Captain America both as an Invader and as an Avenger. This would have brought closure to his incessant search for meaning and identity while opening up a new door for very different future stories of Vision and Wanda, the Avengers in general, and even the relationship with Captain America.

Of course this would be complicated and angst-inducing due to the Immortus story and the existence of a second Torch. The second Torch would of course look a lot more like the Torch and thus would have a psychological leg up over the Vision, who would feel insecure because he can't fit in as easily with humans as the second Torch can. This would be a very Marvel-type soap opera story so I guess I could put up with it.

But Simon Williams? He has no role in any of this that I've seen so far. He seems to have been shoehorned in. He must have been somebody's pet character. Maybe because of his name. "Simply delicious! DC must hate how we have Wonder Man in our books! Oh, sweet triumph! How can we increase his visibility and centrality in the stories? I want to send the DC guys a Christmas card with Wonder Man on it! Oh I'm crying! I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!"








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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    Simon Williams is a character of his own with his own personal connections, notably to his villainous brother, the Grim Reaper, and his long-running friendship with his fellow Avenger, the Beast (recently featured again in Uncanny Avengers). Simon may not be the most popular Avengers, but he has fans.


No, you misunderstood my question. Why do we need Wonder Man in the Vision's origin story? What gap did he fill in that particular story?

I wasn't asking why we need the character as a character. I would never ask that. He existed in the Silver and Bronze Ages. He's part of the bedrock of Marvel. No one from that era should ever cease to exist on the published page. Not even Willie Lumpkin.

Thus I could ask the same question a different way: Why does Wonder Man need the Vision? From a character design and overall story design perspective - why? They were two separate characters in their own right with their own trajectories set long ago by Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. Why convolute the one with the other? I'm asking for both the in-story reason and the meta-reason.

(EDIT: I hadn't read your post near the top of the thread, Menshevik. Now I have. So I know Roy betrayed me with heartless disregard for my feelings.)

I'm not anti-Wonder Man by any means. I long for a return to the days of Wonder Man and the Beast as Avengers and best friends. It was easily one of the best bromances ever published in any comic. They were awesome.






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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    I've now checked in Wonder Man's wikipedia article and then in the extremely comprehensive The Official Marvel Index to The Avengers #3 (1987).



    Quote:
    It turns out that the Vision having Simon Williams' memories actually dates back to the classic "Even an Android Can Cry" (Avengers #58, 1968) by Roy Thomas and John Buscema. (I hadn't re-read that story in ages and so had forgotten those details). This contains a flashback to Wonder Man's death (Avengers #9) which retcons in that Iron Man and Hank Pym (as Giant-Man) recorded his brain patterns and put them into storage in Pym's lab for the eventuality that they would find a way of reviving Wonder Man's body. We also see the origin of Ultron-1, which ends with ends with Ultron hypnotizing his "father" Hank Pym to forget about him and into abandoning his lab. In #58 Hank Pym (as Goliath) discovers the gap in his own memories in the course of the examination of the Vision (he talks about his old synthozoid experiments and then is stumped for an answer when Hawkeye asks what their ultimate results were) and decides to revisit his abandoned, boarded-up lab. Using the memory bank there, he sees what happened when he built Ultron-1. Iron Man then discovers that the tape with Wonder Man's memories is missing, and the Avengers come to the conclusion that the Vision is a synthetic body with Wonder Man's mind. (Okay, that may be based on circumstantial evidence, but it's good enough for comicbooks).


Oh my Lord. I do not remember that horror.

Roy - Roy - Why???

I really need to give up now. All of Marvel is stacked against me. When Roy betrays me, I have nowhere else to turn.

Yeah, the Vision was just Simon Williams in a can.

I'm done. Even an android's fan can cry.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





    Quote:
    As to Wonder Man, he's become a character in his own right and he is the original Simon Williams, while Vision was a copy at best.


I'm not a big Vision fan but that's just not fair.

Going by this recap I assume you've read a lot it. Vision and Simon's personalities are nothing alike. They needed someone's brain waves to give Vision a personality but Vision doesn't actually have Simon's memories. He got a rudimentary consciousness from Simon and has been building on it ever since. At some point he also had some brainwaves of a guy named Alex Lipton in there as well.

Vision isn't Simon's copy. Vision is a car that was jump started with Simon's brainwaves.

(honestly I thought them always going on about being brothers was dumb)





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I've now checked in Wonder Man's wikipedia article and then in the extremely comprehensive The Official Marvel Index to The Avengers #3 (1987).

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It turns out that the Vision having Simon Williams' memories actually dates back to the classic "Even an Android Can Cry" (Avengers #58, 1968) by Roy Thomas and John Buscema. (I hadn't re-read that story in ages and so had forgotten those details). This contains a flashback to Wonder Man's death (Avengers #9) which retcons in that Iron Man and Hank Pym (as Giant-Man) recorded his brain patterns and put them into storage in Pym's lab for the eventuality that they would find a way of reviving Wonder Man's body. We also see the origin of Ultron-1, which ends with ends with Ultron hypnotizing his "father" Hank Pym to forget about him and into abandoning his lab. In #58 Hank Pym (as Goliath) discovers the gap in his own memories in the course of the examination of the Vision (he talks about his old synthozoid experiments and then is stumped for an answer when Hawkeye asks what their ultimate results were) and decides to revisit his abandoned, boarded-up lab. Using the memory bank there, he sees what happened when he built Ultron-1. Iron Man then discovers that the tape with Wonder Man's memories is missing, and the Avengers come to the conclusion that the Vision is a synthetic body with Wonder Man's mind. (Okay, that may be based on circumstantial evidence, but it's good enough for comicbooks).



    Quote:
    Oh my Lord. I do not remember that horror.




    Quote:
    Roy - Roy - Why???



    Quote:
    I really need to give up now. All of Marvel is stacked against me. When Roy betrays me, I have nowhere else to turn.



    Quote:
    Yeah, the Vision was just Simon Williams in a can.


You knew Simon had some sort of connection to Vision. What did you think it was?

Vision got "brain waves" and later "engrams" but you already knew that. Vision did NOT get Simon's memories.

They just jump started Vision with Simon's brain waves. The way they described it in the book Vision would be like Simon with amnesia. The memories that make Simon Simon he didn't get.

(honestly the whole thing doesn't make much sense...he didn't get memories...so what exactly did he get from Simon)


    Quote:
    I'm done. Even an android's fan can cry.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





    Quote:
    No, you misunderstood my question. Why do we need Wonder Man in the Vision's origin story? What gap did he fill in that particular story?


I think Roy thought Vision needed some spark of humanity. We're used to robots like Data who proved their worth without being human. Maybe back when the Vision was introduced the idea of a robot being accepted completely wasn't something people considered. So Roy just made Vision a reincarnation of a former Avengers ally who died.


    Quote:
    I wasn't asking why we need the character as a character. I would never ask that. He existed in the Silver and Bronze Ages. He's part of the bedrock of Marvel. No one from that era should ever cease to exist on the published page. Not even Willie Lumpkin.



    Quote:
    Thus I could ask the same question a different way: Why does Wonder Man need the Vision? From a character design and overall story design perspective - why? They were two separate characters in their own right with their own trajectories set long ago by Stan Lee and Roy Thomas. Why convolute the one with the other? I'm asking for both the in-story reason and the meta-reason.


Simon doesn't need the Vision. I think the Vision needed Simon story wise. He needed attachments...so they gave him Wanda and Simon.


    Quote:
    (EDIT: I hadn't read your post near the top of the thread, Menshevik. Now I have. So I know Roy betrayed me with heartless disregard for my feelings.)



    Quote:
    I'm not anti-Wonder Man by any means. I long for a return to the days of Wonder Man and the Beast as Avengers and best friends. It was easily one of the best bromances ever published in any comic. They were awesome.


No I see your point. Simon complicates things needlessly. But I don't think the original plan was for Simon and Vision to interact. Simon didn't return until several years later.






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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,841


Why? Because Roy's Avengers is awesome.

I'm really confused. How did you not know/remember all of this? This is sort of what has always made me a Vision fan.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 4,292


He was copied the first time by Hank as he was dying at the end of his debut story. The plan was that in some way Simon might live again some day.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Why? Because Roy's Avengers is awesome.



    Quote:
    I'm really confused. How did you not know/remember all of this? This is sort of what has always made me a Vision fan.


That's what I didn't get about his post. What was the new piece of information that made him disappointed with Roy's run? We've been talking about Simon having Vision's brainwaves the whole thread below but even then I'm sure he knew the broad strokes of that before hand.

Thomas's version of Vision IS better than Engelhart, Byrne, Stern and Busiek's interpretations as he asserts. If we've left him with the impression that all of the changes to the Vision's backstory were a good thing I would like to undo that. We're quibbling about facts here and there but none of us are trying to take anything away from Roy Thomas who is awesome in my book. To me Roy Thomas is like the steward of Marvel Comics. Jack and Stan created the universe...but Roy had to keep it going.


Reverend Meteor (Roy was the best Avengers writer IMO)




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    Copied again. When was he copied the first time and why? Which story, which writer, what probably flimsy explanation?


He meant Simon didn't want to be copied again after Hank and Tony copied him the first time way back in the day.

Simon didn't want to help recreate the Vision's personality after he was disassembled in Byrne's West Coast Avengers run for two reasons.

1. He was in love with Wanda.
2. He didn't feel that it was right that his brain engrams/essence what have you was copied into a robot in the first place. It would be like someone having created a child with your stolen sperm sample. Or what was done with Henrietta Lacks cell line.

While not submitting to be copied for the first reason makes him an opportunistic dick I agree with him for the second reason. Everyone has a right what they choose to share of themselves and he wasn't given the choice the first time around.




    Quote:
    That sentence is why I hate the Simon Williams permutation to the story. Without it, the Vision could one day have had his gem removed and returned to his Torch personality, while retaining his memories and feelings up to that point. He would have been the Torch (mentally and emotionally) and he also would have been in love with Wanda and a dedicated Avenger while having memories of being friends with Captain America both as an Invader and as an Avenger. This would have brought closure to his incessant search for meaning and identity while opening up a new door for very different future stories of Vision and Wanda, the Avengers in general, and even the relationship with Captain America.


yuck to all of that. There was no plan for any of that ever. There was never a Jim and Wanda couple. When Vision was with Wanda he was the Vision. Not Jim. Not Simon. He had his own personality and that was who Wanda fell for.

There was never a plan for Vision to regain those Torch memories and be Jim again. Which is why Byrne's retcon as bad as it is was, was also a bit of a good thing. Jim was his own distinctive character and there was never a plan to erase Vision and make Jim live again. Jim's origin had to be divorced from Vision's so both could live.


    Quote:
    Of course this would be complicated and angst-inducing due to the Immortus story and the existence of a second Torch. The second Torch would of course look a lot more like the Torch and thus would have a psychological leg up over the Vision, who would feel insecure because he can't fit in as easily with humans as the second Torch can. This would be a very Marvel-type soap opera story so I guess I could put up with it.


I have no love for the Immortus was behind everything angle. I accepted the Jim isn't the Vision aspect of it but in every other way I hated it. Wanda and virtually every thing in her life ended up being manipulated for a nonsense story (that Roy had to fix or make worse depending how you look at it) about Wanda being some time nexus being or something.


    Quote:
    But Simon Williams? He has no role in any of this that I've seen so far. He seems to have been shoehorned in. He must have been somebody's pet character. Maybe because of his name. "Simply delicious! DC must hate how we have Wonder Man in our books! Oh, sweet triumph! How can we increase his visibility and centrality in the stories? I want to send the DC guys a Christmas card with Wonder Man on it! Oh I'm crying! I can't breathe I'm laughing so hard!"


The thing is Jim didn't really have anything to do with it. He was the victim of a retcon that effectively absorbed him into the Vision and wiped out his personality.

Simon wasn't part of the original plan. His brainwaves were what they used to give Vision some semblance of a working personality. But then years later they brought Simon back from the dead so they could have Vision and Simon interact. And Englehart built about this love story between Vision and Wanda. And then Byrne came along and hated all of that and made it his mission to destroy the happy couple. And then Busiek came along to tried make sense of the mess Englehart and Byrne had made of Avengers continuity over the years and made it much worse than it was before he got there.

Nothing occurred in a vacuum. Someone was always unhappy with the vision (lowercase) of the writers before them and put their little stink on it. Vision, Simon and Wanda are nearly unusable IMO with all the retcons they've been through.








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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,884



    Quote:
    (honestly I thought them always going on about being brothers was dumb)


It's all in the writing. When I was first getting into comics, one of the first things I read was the excellent Vision and Scarlet Witch mini-series (by Bill Mantlo and Rick Leonardi). The series really hammered home how connected these characters were. They were connected with the Brotherhood, Quicksilver (and therefore with the Inhumans), with the Avengers, with Simon and the Grim Reaper, with Ultron, with the Wizzer and Miss America, with Wundagore, with the High Evolutionary... the list went on and on. And ultimately it was revealed that Wanda and Pietro were the children of Magneto, and therefore Luna was Magneto's granddaughter.

Since the strength of the Marvel Universe was always its inter-connectivity, these stories really connected these two characters to the strength of Marvel itself. I fell in love with these guys fast. There were a couple of really good stories that followed around the same time - a Marvel Team-Up where Wanda got possessed by the Serpent Crown at Project Pegasus, and a Dr. Strange cross-over where Wanda assisted in destroying all vampires. Then came the intriguing Avengers-FF cross-over where the Vision crossed through the Negative Zone barrier and fell into a coma.

But then the bad writing came. Vision/Isaac became a disembodied floating head and took over the world's computers. The Englehart Vision and Scarlet Witch mini turned the Vision from a brooding, mysterious presence into a grinning, overly-relatable young father. To your point, Reverend, Englehart really enlarged upon the idea of the Simon and the Vision considering themselves brothers, to a ridiculous degree. And of course, the idea of this couple having children was always a terrible idea.

Then there was the infamous Byrne storyline in WCA which retconned the Vision from a being of synthetic flesh-and-blood (Pym had actually shrunk down and traveled through the Vision's fleshy insides) into a soulless thing of circuitry and robotics. Byrne also introduced Hammond into the Vision's origin, which really wasn't needed. During Byrne's run, Wanda's mental instability was introduced as a core element of her character, which allowed hacks like Bendis to dog-pile on the idea years later.

So, yeah. The writing matters. In my opinion, the damage started with Englehart's bad ideas (the children and the overly humanized Vision). It progressed to Byrne assassinating both of their characters. And it culminated in Avengers Disassembled where Vision was destroyed (again) and Wanda went 100% cuckoo.




And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    It's all in the writing. When I was first getting into comics, one of the first things I read was the excellent Vision and Scarlet Witch mini-series (by Bill Mantlo and Rick Leonardi). The series really hammered home how connected these characters were. They were connected with the Brotherhood, Quicksilver (and therefore with the Inhumans), with the Avengers, with Simon and the Grim Reaper, with Ultron, with the Wizzer and Miss America, with Wundagore, with the High Evolutionary... the list went on and on. And ultimately it was revealed that Wanda and Pietro were the children of Magneto, and therefore Luna was Magneto's granddaughter.



    Quote:
    Since the strength of the Marvel Universe was always its inter-connectivity, these stories really connected these two characters to the strength of Marvel itself. I fell in love with these guys fast. There were a couple of really good stories that followed around the same time - a Marvel Team-Up where Wanda got possessed by the Serpent Crown at Project Pegasus, and a Dr. Strange cross-over where Wanda assisted in destroying all vampires. Then came the intriguing Avengers-FF cross-over where the Vision crossed through the Negative Zone barrier and fell into a coma.



    Quote:
    But then the bad writing came. Vision/Isaac became a disembodied floating head and took over the world's computers. The Englehart Vision and Scarlet Witch mini turned the Vision from a brooding, mysterious presence into a grinning, overly-relatable young father. To your point, Reverend, Englehart really enlarged upon the idea of the Simon and the Vision considering themselves brothers, to a ridiculous degree. And of course, the idea of this couple having children was always a terrible idea.



    Quote:
    Then there was the infamous Byrne storyline in WCA which retconned the Vision from a being of synthetic flesh-and-blood (Pym had actually shrunk down and traveled through the Vision's fleshy insides) into a soulless thing of circuitry and robotics. Byrne also introduced Hammond into the Vision's origin, which really wasn't needed. During Byrne's run, Wanda's mental instability was introduced as a core element of her character, which allowed hacks like Bendis to dog-pile on the idea years later.


Byrne tweaked the origin certainly but Englehart connected Jim Hammond to Vision in Avengers #135. Byrne was trying to make them separate characters again. I agree with that goal but the horrible crap that came with that (Wanda going crazy, nexus beings, Vision being disassembled, Wanda's children being erased, Immortus etc) just wasn't worth it.


    Quote:
    So, yeah. The writing matters. In my opinion, the damage started with Englehart's bad ideas (the children and the overly humanized Vision). It progressed to Byrne assassinating both of their characters. And it culminated in Avengers Disassembled where Vision was destroyed (again) and Wanda went 100% cuckoo.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    The Avengers Forever 12 issues series offers explanations in issue 8 regarding Vision and Jim, and how what happened with Vision and Scarlet Witch was indeed a long plot of Immortus


The point I'm trying to make (badly) is that the location of Hammond's body was never really "a mistake". Like no one forget where it was. Different writers just had different ideas on where that was.

Engelhart's view was that Thinker used Jim's body to lure in Toro. Later Ultron took the body and had Horton turn it into the Vision.

Byrne's view was that the Thinker just dumped Jim in a grave. The stuff from Englehart about Ultron taking the body was a lie concocted by Immortus and related by his magic staff.

We had two different interpretations of what happened to the body but both versions accounted for it.





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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm really confused. How did you not know/remember all of this? This is sort of what has always made me a Vision fan.


    That's what I didn't get about his post. What was the new piece of information that made him disappointed with Roy's run? We've been talking about Simon having Vision's brainwaves the whole thread below but even then I'm sure he knew the broad strokes of that before hand.


I thought I could blame some other writer for the Simon Williams part. I didn't remember it was there from the very beginning. I thought it was a retcon. HOWEVER -

I went back and re-read issues 57 and 58 of the Avengers. These, as you know, were the two issues that introduced the Vision and made him an Avenger. These were great issues, by the way. A few logic conundrums of the sort Emerick Man loves to point out, but nevertheless, some of the best comic book storytelling ever, thanks to the awesome Roy Thomas and superlative John Buscema. And here's the thing -

Simon Williams was STILL DEAD at that point.

You guys are probably scratching your heads in bewilderment even after that astonishing revelation. But you see, when I was reacting to Menshevik, I didn't REMEMBER that Simon Williams was still dead at that point. Even now I have no idea when Simon was revived. I would have to look it up.

And back then, when a character died, that character was expected to stay dead.

Roy was giving the Vision brain patterns from a dead man who was still dead and was going to stay dead as far as Roy could possibly have known.

Ridiculous as this will sound, I was picturing the Vision finding out about having Simon's brain patterns with Simon standing right there in the room with him. Because Simon has been revived for so incredibly long at this point that I forgot there was actually a period when he was doorknob dead.

Roy wasn't creating the Vision as some expendable mechanized copy of a guy who was living right there in the mansion and drinking Jarvis's tea. Simon was stone cold deceased. Skeleton in a box. Returned to the earth. Gone.

Totally different scenario than what I was picturing.

Roy and I are in love again. John and I, I'm happy to say, were never estranged to begin with.






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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 25,841



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I'm really confused. How did you not know/remember all of this? This is sort of what has always made me a Vision fan.



      Quote:
      That's what I didn't get about his post. What was the new piece of information that made him disappointed with Roy's run? We've been talking about Simon having Vision's brainwaves the whole thread below but even then I'm sure he knew the broad strokes of that before hand.



    Quote:
    I thought I could blame some other writer for the Simon Williams part. I didn't remember it was there from the very beginning. I thought it was a retcon. HOWEVER -



    Quote:
    I went back and re-read issues 57 and 58 of the Avengers. These, as you know, were the two issues that introduced the Vision and made him an Avenger. These were great issues, by the way. A few logic conundrums of the sort Emerick Man loves to point out, but nevertheless, some of the best comic book storytelling ever, thanks to the awesome Roy Thomas and superlative John Buscema. And here's the thing -



    Quote:
    Simon Williams was STILL DEAD at that point.



    Quote:
    You guys are probably scratching your heads in bewilderment even after that astonishing revelation. But you see, when I was reacting to Menshevik, I didn't REMEMBER that Simon Williams was still dead at that point. Even now I have no idea when Simon was revived. I would have to look it up.



    Quote:
    And back then, when a character died, that character was expected to stay dead.

Simon remained "dead" for another 100 issues or so, when his brother (and Englehart) brought him back.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

    Simon remained "dead" for another 100 issues or so, when his brother (and Englehart) brought him back.


Yeah I think after he died he came back from the dead a few times before he came back to life for good. (Kang, Black Talon, Living Laser's schemes I think)





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