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America's Captain 

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Tim Drake (Robin)
Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern)
Kon-El (Superboy)
Linda Danvers (Supergirl)
Cassandra Cain (Batgirl)

So what's your verdict?

Tim or Damian?

Tim or Dick Grayson? (Which would mean retiring the Robin identity, since Dick isn't using it.)

Kyle or Hal?

Kon-El or Jon?

Linda or Kara?

Cassandra or Barbara?

I personally prefer Batman with Robin, because I think the teamwork is part of what makes the victories believable, and because Alfred becomes doubly relevant when he has two people (instead of just one) to worry about, fuss over, and snark at. So for me it's a choice between Tim and Damian. And I have to admit, Damian is cool.

I never really believed in Kyle as a Green Lantern. He just never had the gung-ho attitude I expect in a galactic soldier/cop.

Kon-El wins over Jon a million times over. Oh my God kill Jon right now.

I never gave Linda Danvers a fair chance. Maybe I should have. At the time, because she wasn't Kryptonian, I didn't want her using the "Super" designation. I feel the same way nowadays regarding Superwoman and New Superman. They're not Kryptonian so they should be given different code names. "Super" should mean you're from Krypton.

In the beginning I didn't give Cassandra a fair chance because I was secretly in love with Yvonne Craig. But eventually, when I saw Cassandra outfighting absolutely everybody, I switched over to her team.

How about you?







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394




    Quote:
    Tim Drake (Robin)
    Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern)
    Kon-El (Superboy)
    Linda Danvers (Supergirl)
    Cassandra Cain (Batgirl)



    Quote:
    So what's your verdict?



    Quote:
    Tim or Damian?



    Quote:
    Tim or Dick Grayson? (Which would mean retiring the Robin identity, since Dick isn't using it.)


I like Tim more. I thought he was just a really well thought out character (before the new 52). Probably one of the best comic book characters ever IMO.

Sometimes I would be reading Nightwing and wonder what the point of that book was. With Tim it seemed like the writers took time to show how him and Batman are not alike in many ways and worse you would see he does share some of his worst habits (being manipulative) in a way I don't think Nightwing ever could connect with Bruce on. Tim seemed like the guy who had the potential to be better than Batman but who really never wanted to be.



    Quote:
    Kyle or Hal?


John. And if I had to give second place...Guy.


    Quote:
    Kon-El or Jon?


Kon-El.


    Quote:
    Linda or Kara?


Neither


    Quote:
    Cassandra or Barbara?


Barbara


    Quote:
    I personally prefer Batman with Robin, because I think the teamwork is part of what makes the victories believable, and because Alfred becomes doubly relevant when he has two people (instead of just one) to worry about, fuss over, and snark at. So for me it's a choice between Tim and Damian. And I have to admit, Damian is cool.


I've always hated Batman with a Robin. But I liked Tim enough to overlook it. I probably enjoyed his solo series more than his missions in Batman's titles.


    Quote:
    I never really believed in Kyle as a Green Lantern. He just never had the gung-ho attitude I expect in a galactic soldier/cop.








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Superman's Pal

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    Quote:
    So what's your verdict?



    Quote:
    Tim or Damian?

I can't really compare, I haven't read enough of Damian. When he first showed up he seemed insufferable but I only saw less than a year of his stuff.


    Quote:
    Tim or Dick Grayson? (Which would mean retiring the Robin identity, since Dick isn't using it.)

I liked that Dick grew out of Batman's shadow to become his own hero with Nightwing. I preferred a universe with both Nightwing and Robin. I liked Tim because he was smart, he discovered Bruce Wayne's identity and broke into the Batcave with his skills and moxie. I didn't see much of Dick as Robin, I mostly saw him with the Titans as Nightwing.


    Quote:
    Kyle or Hal?

I never warmed to Kyle. Hal was okay I think in the '60s and to some extent after Rebirth. The '80s was not his decade with the self-doubts and such. I was much more into Guy Gardner, I am a big cheerleader for Guy. I guess I like broken characters, odd men out. Post Rebirth when he became more of a team player I didn't like him as much. But at least it's better than the Warrior years.


    Quote:
    Kon-El or Jon?

I haven't read anything of Jon. I liked Kon-El as Superboy better than Clark as Superboy because he was a different character. Adventures of young Clark were always boxed in because it had to some day lead into the adult Superman stories so it couldn't diverge too far. Kon-El had possibilities. I liked his series with Kesel and Grummett and liked him in Young Justice. The latter years of his series and the Titans run, not as much.


    Quote:
    Linda or Kara?

Didn't read Linda's book, may try it one day. I also didn't like the idea of a non-Kryptonian Supergirl. I had warmed to Matrix and would have read her series, probably. I did read her mini series. I don't like when a character becomes popular enough for their own book and the first thing they do is hand their powers off to someone else. Like they were gaining traction with the Eradicator after Reign, and when he got a series they had him merge with a human and the human now had all of his powers. Why do I want to read about this new character? I came here for the Eradicator, y'know? Same reason I didn't like the Lone Gunmen TV series. They finally got their own show and what do they do? Bring in two new stars and make the Gunmen sidekicks in their own show. I wanted to see the Gunmen as the stars!


    Quote:
    Cassandra or Barbara?

I didn't read either of their runs as Batgirl, although I saw Cassandra a few times and she had potential. I liked Barbara as Oracle and I think it's a shame if they got rid of that character in the New 52.


    Quote:
    I personally prefer Batman with Robin, because I think the teamwork is part of what makes the victories believable, and because Alfred becomes doubly relevant when he has two people (instead of just one) to worry about, fuss over, and snark at. So for me it's a choice between Tim and Damian. And I have to admit, Damian is cool.

I guess I grew up with a dead Bucky and dead Jason Todd and the feeling at the time was that no responsible adult would draft a child into a war. Superheroing didn't used to be war, but by the '80s it was. I liked that they had consequences, I'm really sad that they brought those two characters back to life, I think they had far more value as reminders of how dangerous it can be.

Just like I really preferred a dead Barry Allen. Granted, I grew up after he was out of the comics so I didn't miss him. But it seems like you had a place for a lot of characters in the Flash family. Jay was the elder mentor, Barry was the dead father figure, Wally was the new adult trying to live up to Barry's memory, then they brought in Bart as the new kid. Four characters with four different places in the myth. When they brought back Barry it seemed like redundancy, he and Wally were too similar. At least before that when they grew up Bart into an adult, it was only after Wally was out of the picture. I don't even know about New 52, it's just Barry with Wally as Kid Flash right? Seems like such a step backwards. I can understand streamlining a bit, but I don't ever really see the point of rebooting and throwing out all that rich history.



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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I like Tim more. I thought he was just a really well thought out character (before the new 52). Probably one of the best comic book characters ever IMO.



    Quote:
    Sometimes I would be reading Nightwing and wonder what the point of that book was. With Tim it seemed like the writers took time to show how him and Batman are not alike in many ways and worse you would see he does share some of his worst habits (being manipulative) in a way I don't think Nightwing ever could connect with Bruce on. Tim seemed like the guy who had the potential to be better than Batman but who really never wanted to be.


It's amazing to me how much of an impact Grant Morrison had on 21st century comics. In this case, we have Tim, who would be Robin to this day if not for Grant Morrison, who invented Damian. So of course DC needed to make Tim diminish and then disappear. Because that's the kind of binary thinking DC engages in. Yes/no, in/out, only two choices, never a third. (I guess, to be fair, we had Tim as "Red Robin" for a while, which was sort of a third choice, I guess.)

Oddly it just occurred to me that Tim Drake could become the new Mister Terrific. He seems to be smart enough. (The only thing I like about this weird thought is that it gets Tim out of Batman's shadow.)


    Quote:
    I've always hated Batman with a Robin. But I liked Tim enough to overlook it. I probably enjoyed his solo series more than his missions in Batman's titles.


It would really be interesting to see Tim being his own kind of hero, separate from Batman.






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Superman's Pal

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    Quote:
    Oddly it just occurred to me that Tim Drake could become the new Mister Terrific. He seems to be smart enough. (The only thing I like about this weird thought is that it gets Tim out of Batman's shadow.)

Out of Batman's shadow and into Terry Sloan's? Or Michael Holt's? Seems like a step down. From the sidekick of an A-lister to the sidekick of a B-lister. All respect to Holt who's a great character.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I've always hated Batman with a Robin. But I liked Tim enough to overlook it. I probably enjoyed his solo series more than his missions in Batman's titles.



    Quote:
    It would really be interesting to see Tim being his own kind of hero, separate from Batman.

Give him his own identity, like Barbara as Oracle. I know that kind of thing rarely works but maybe Tim could be one that does.



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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
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    Quote:
    Out of Batman's shadow and into Terry Sloan's? Or Michael Holt's? Seems like a step down. From the sidekick of an A-lister to the sidekick of a B-lister. All respect to Holt who's a great character.


I agree with you, of course. What struck me is that Tim is actually smart enough to pull it off. Dick Grayson couldn't. Jason Todd couldn't. Damian Wayne couldn't.


    Quote:

    Give him his own identity, like Barbara as Oracle. I know that kind of thing rarely works but maybe Tim could be one that does.


He could call himself "Drake" and dress like a duck.

OK - I agree - that would be daffy.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394





    Quote:
    Just like I really preferred a dead Barry Allen. Granted, I grew up after he was out of the comics so I didn't miss him. But it seems like you had a place for a lot of characters in the Flash family. Jay was the elder mentor, Barry was the dead father figure, Wally was the new adult trying to live up to Barry's memory, then they brought in Bart as the new kid. Four characters with four different places in the myth. When they brought back Barry it seemed like redundancy, he and Wally were too similar. At least before that when they grew up Bart into an adult, it was only after Wally was out of the picture. I don't even know about New 52, it's just Barry with Wally as Kid Flash right? Seems like such a step backwards. I can understand streamlining a bit, but I don't ever really see the point of rebooting and throwing out all that rich history.


I think the problem is if you like a particular hero you really don't want them to die just so they can serve as their replacement's object lesson. It almost seems to compound the annoyance seeing the replacement get all the glory while the original that you like isn't being used.


I know I felt that way about Sam Alexander as Nova over at Marvel.

Reverend Meteor







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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,527



    Quote:
    I think the problem is if you like a particular hero you really don't want them to die just so they can serve as their replacement's object lesson. It almost seems to compound the annoyance seeing the replacement get all the glory while the original that you like isn't being used.



    Quote:

    I know I felt that way about Sam Alexander as Nova over at Marvel.


I'm sure many feel the same about Mar-Vell in relation to Carol Danvers.

Yet the DC deaths were even worse than this. The Flash and Supergirl were killed off, in my opinion, so Crisis on Infinite Earths would seem more important. Talk about annoying! To make matters still worse, these two deaths have become the template for how special events to this very day are made to seem even more special. Marvel in particular has latched onto this formula. Seems like they almost always have to kill somebody.

I was never a big fan of the Flash (because he tended to fight villains he should have defeated in less time than it took them to blink) but Supergirl had always been a favorite of mine.

Let's also not forget the elimination of Superboy (Clark Kent version) for reasons I still don't grasp. Decades of stories tossed in the shredder. At least the Flash stories were still in continuity. He was dead but he wasn't banished from all history like Superboy (Clark Kent version) was. Don't even get me started on how the Legion of Super-Heroes was forever ruined.

Could Kon-El have called himself Superboy if Clark had also called himself Superboy? Of course he could have! It's not like Clark was still using the Superboy identity. Clark was no longer a boy.

These annoyances ruined my ability to enjoy the Kon-El, Linda Danvers, and Wally West versions of Superboy, Supergirl, and the Flash. In the case of Kon-El, I'm only now starting to feel (after more than two decades) some curiosity regarding the character. Lo and behold - DC is coming out with a paperback collection of his first twelve issues (0-11) in January. I may pre-order it. My only hesitation has to do with whether I really want to read about a rebellious teen-ager.






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Superman's Pal

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    Quote:
    I think the problem is if you like a particular hero you really don't want them to die just so they can serve as their replacement's object lesson. It almost seems to compound the annoyance seeing the replacement get all the glory while the original that you like isn't being used.

Understandable. I know you said you've been reading Silver Age Barry. Probably the first Flash comic I ever read was Crisis on Infinite Earths where he dies. Going forward, he was dead and major character deaths weren't so easily reversed, so I suppose having Wally look to him for inspiration was the silver lining. It's just the status quo I was familiar with and liked.

Still, if you bring back Barry you might as well turn Wally back into a teen, so they have a different role in the story. That doesn't leave much place for Impulse who was a better character than Wally Post-Crisis, in my opinion.



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Superman's Pal

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    Quote:
    Yet the DC deaths were even worse than this. The Flash and Supergirl were killed off, in my opinion, so Crisis on Infinite Earths would seem more important. Talk about annoying! To make matters still worse, these two deaths have become the template for how special events to this very day are made to seem even more special. Marvel in particular has latched onto this formula. Seems like they almost always have to kill somebody.

But the death only has impact anyway if it lasts. Barry was dead for 25 years, Kara for 20ish. Now they kill someone off and they're back within the year, so who cares? During Blackest Night didn't they kill the Hawks just so they could revive them as zombies and then at the end of the story brought them back to life (or in Brightest Day?) They need to take these shortcuts away from the writers. Tell them that in the next big crossover no one dies or changes status quo. Now try to make it an interesting story.


    Quote:
    I was never a big fan of the Flash (because he tended to fight villains he should have defeated in less time than it took them to blink) but Supergirl had always been a favorite of mine.

Sometimes speed worked against him ... I'm remembering an old Silver Age yarn where Barry fought the Turtle. He was so slow, The Flash was too fast to catch him! Yeah, no, I didn't buy that logic.


    Quote:
    Let's also not forget the elimination of Superboy (Clark Kent version) for reasons I still don't grasp. Decades of stories tossed in the shredder. At least the Flash stories were still in continuity. He was dead but he wasn't banished from all history like Superboy (Clark Kent version) was. Don't even get me started on how the Legion of Super-Heroes was forever ruined.



    Quote:
    Could Kon-El have called himself Superboy if Clark had also called himself Superboy? Of course he could have! It's not like Clark was still using the Superboy identity. Clark was no longer a boy.

Agreed, there was no reason to eliminate teenage Clark from history. Kon-El could have still been a legacy character. He was only birthed after Superman was dead anyway so he was a placeholder.


    Quote:
    These annoyances ruined my ability to enjoy the Kon-El, Linda Danvers, and Wally West versions of Superboy, Supergirl, and the Flash. In the case of Kon-El, I'm only now starting to feel (after more than two decades) some curiosity regarding the character. Lo and behold - DC is coming out with a paperback collection of his first twelve issues (0-11) in January. I may pre-order it. My only hesitation has to do with whether I really want to read about a rebellious teen-ager.

His early stuff is probably pretty bad, adults trying to write for teens in the '90s. Kind of like the tin ear of the Teen Titans writers in the '60s. I'm sure all the kids loved to go to beach rallies and such, right? I think Kon-El smoothed out after the first year though.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think the problem is if you like a particular hero you really don't want them to die just so they can serve as their replacement's object lesson. It almost seems to compound the annoyance seeing the replacement get all the glory while the original that you like isn't being used.

    Understandable. I know you said you've been reading Silver Age Barry. Probably the first Flash comic I ever read was Crisis on Infinite Earths where he dies. Going forward, he was dead and major character deaths weren't so easily reversed, so I suppose having Wally look to him for inspiration was the silver lining. It's just the status quo I was familiar with and liked.



    Quote:
    Still, if you bring back Barry you might as well turn Wally back into a teen, so they have a different role in the story. That doesn't leave much place for Impulse who was a better character than Wally Post-Crisis, in my opinion.


If I'm being honest post crisis Wally is the one I found interesting. The Silver Age Barry stories were great...but not BECAUSE of Barry. He just has great Rogues IMO and those stories were just really nifty and mostly self contained.

I can see why people didn't like Barry being killed off. My opinion is that Wally as a character was better Post Crisis (those early Wolfman era Titan stories he was a bit of a brat IMO)...but his solo title just wasn't as fun as those Silver Age Barry stories. So Wally had involved into an interesting character but I wasn't always interested in the plots he was put through.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think the problem is if you like a particular hero you really don't want them to die just so they can serve as their replacement's object lesson. It almost seems to compound the annoyance seeing the replacement get all the glory while the original that you like isn't being used.

      Quote:

        Quote:

        I know I felt that way about Sam Alexander as Nova over at Marvel.



    Quote:
    I'm sure many feel the same about Mar-Vell in relation to Carol Danvers.



    Quote:
    Yet the DC deaths were even worse than this. The Flash and Supergirl were killed off, in my opinion, so Crisis on Infinite Earths would seem more important. Talk about annoying! To make matters still worse, these two deaths have become the template for how special events to this very day are made to seem even more special. Marvel in particular has latched onto this formula. Seems like they almost always have to kill somebody.



    Quote:
    I was never a big fan of the Flash (because he tended to fight villains he should have defeated in less time than it took them to blink) but Supergirl had always been a favorite of mine.


I like his villains who are kinda lame but lovable. Barry can be bland. Wally's book could be bland...but I really loved the Waid years.


    Quote:
    Let's also not forget the elimination of Superboy (Clark Kent version) for reasons I still don't grasp. Decades of stories tossed in the shredder. At least the Flash stories were still in continuity. He was dead but he wasn't banished from all history like Superboy (Clark Kent version) was. Don't even get me started on how the Legion of Super-Heroes was forever ruined.


As much as I like the Legion and have to agree their continuity has never recovered...I just never liked Clark as a member. Everyone's useless with him around. Doubly so if Mon-El is also there. The solution they used to get rid of Clark from the Legion was just a bad one though. (we could have a separate thread on the horrors Crisis inflicted on the Legion)

I really liked Kon-El. It might have something to do with the awesome art his series had. On face value he seems like a crappy idea but I think they built him up to an interesting character.



    Quote:
    Could Kon-El have called himself Superboy if Clark had also called himself Superboy? Of course he could have! It's not like Clark was still using the Superboy identity. Clark was no longer a boy.



    Quote:
    These annoyances ruined my ability to enjoy the Kon-El, Linda Danvers, and Wally West versions of Superboy, Supergirl, and the Flash. In the case of Kon-El, I'm only now starting to feel (after more than two decades) some curiosity regarding the character. Lo and behold - DC is coming out with a paperback collection of his first twelve issues (0-11) in January. I may pre-order it. My only hesitation has to do with whether I really want to read about a rebellious teen-ager.


Already planning to get it. To me DC's comics were better in the 90's than Marvel's. I find myself enjoying reading a lot of 90's DC series for the first time and remembering how horrible a lot of things were over at Marvel at the the time.




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394




    Quote:

    Give him his own identity, like Barbara as Oracle. I know that kind of thing rarely works but maybe Tim could be one that does.


I like the idea of him having his own identity...and Red Robin didn't quite cut it.





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Superman's Pal

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I always forget about Red Robin. Didn't they come up with that name at the same time as the burger joint? Great, when I think of Tim Drake now I'll think Clucks N' Fries and Campfire Sauce.


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America's Captain 

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Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,527


I've actually been tempted for about a month to try some Silver Age Flash. I took the plunge this afternoon. This volume is selling for $49 right now:
Flash Silver Age Omnibus Volume 2


    Quote:
    As much as I like the Legion and have to agree their continuity has never recovered...I just never liked Clark as a member. Everyone's useless with him around. Doubly so if Mon-El is also there. The solution they used to get rid of Clark from the Legion was just a bad one though. (we could have a separate thread on the horrors Crisis inflicted on the Legion)


I used to feel similarly about Superman in the Justice League. But I realized I was thinking in terms of the inferior storytelling of modern times. Back in the Silver and Bronze Ages, you generally wouldn't see the entire League all in one place fighting one threat. If aliens are invading five continents at once, Superman will legitimately need help. Even the Super Friends cartoon employed this motif. Sure, it's cliche, but it works, and it's the only approach that does.

The Legion of Super-Heroes would take the above idea one step further. Threats would be attacking multiple planets! There was no chance in the world that Superboy could fight villains in two or three different solar systems at the same time. He absolutely needed the rest of the Legion.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,394




    Quote:
    I've actually been tempted for about a month to try some Silver Age Flash. I took the plunge this afternoon. This volume is selling for $49 right now:
    Flash Silver Age Omnibus Volume 2


I bought both volumes around the time the second one came out.

I really want a third one.



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