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America's Captain 

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- do you hope to see in the movie?

Conversely, what 80s or 90s Carol Danvers moments do you hope NOT to see in the movie??

Please don't talk about current trailers at all. Current trailers are off topic.

Please don't talk about the 21st century at all. The 21st century is off topic.

Please limit your comments to 80s or 90s Carol Danvers moments in the comics that you either do or don't want to see in the movie.

Do you want to see her as Binary (first appeared 1982 per Wikipedia) even if only briefly? Do you want to see her as Warbird (first appeared 1998 per Wikipedia) even if only briefly? Do you want to see her as Ms. Marvel (her identity when the 80s began per Wikipedia) even if only briefly?








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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:
    - do you hope to see in the movie?

I'm pretty sure all of the moments I'd like to see won't ever be in any movie. And outside of the ones that won't fit MCU Carol, she didn't really have any 80s/90s moments that I can recall. Destroying Broodworld was one. After that, I can't recall her doing anything until Starblast, but that wasn't much iirc, and then she came back depowered for her Warbird phase.


    Quote:
    Conversely, what 80s or 90s Carol Danvers moments do you hope NOT to see in the movie??

The rape, obviously.


    Quote:
    Do you want to see her as Binary (first appeared 1982 per Wikipedia) even if only briefly? Do you want to see her as Warbird (first appeared 1998 per Wikipedia) even if only briefly? Do you want to see her as Ms. Marvel (her identity when the 80s began per Wikipedia) even if only briefly?

I do think the trailers have shown her powering up that seems to be a nod to Binary. And no, it's probably best not to play musical codenames or costumes.




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America's Captain 

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    Quote:

    I'm pretty sure all of the moments I'd like to see won't ever be in any movie. And outside of the ones that won't fit MCU Carol, she didn't really have any 80s/90s moments that I can recall. Destroying Broodworld was one.


The Brood might make a good nemesis for the next movie. Unless Marvel thinks they're too creepy.


    Quote:
    After that, I can't recall her doing anything until Starblast, but that wasn't much iirc, and then she came back depowered for her Warbird phase.


I didn't realize she spent time with the Starjammers. Maybe Marvel could give a nod to that by showing her with a team or crew of semi-heroic aliens.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Conversely, what 80s or 90s Carol Danvers moments do you hope NOT to see in the movie??

    The rape, obviously.


Oh wow do I agree. Massively.


    Quote:
    And no, it's probably best not to play musical codenames or costumes.


Probably true. But I wonder if MCU Captain Marvel will be as powerful as the comic book Binary was.






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Unstable Molecule


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The shame of it is - most of her iconic moments are bad moments, and therefore won't (and shouldn't) be featured in the movie. That's what makes me shake my head that they chose her to be the subject of the first female movie (not counting Elektra). Moments like:
- The rape
- The birth of a child conceived by rape
- The mind-controlled extended period of rape
- Rogue turning her into a powerless vegetable
- Her bout with alcoholism (this is less iconic but still).
- Her courtmartial in Busiek's Avengers.

I think she had her best moments with the X-Men (as Binary), but that won't be shown in the movie either.

I didn't read her original series with Claremont as the writer. Did anything of note happen to her in that period?






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    I didn't read her original series with Claremont as the writer. Did anything of note happen to her in that period?


I read them. The answer is no. Like you said the more iconic moments in Carol's life are the bad moments where she's raped/mind controlled/mentally violated/drunk.

I'm just going to say it...that original series of hers was pretty boring.

Ironically the main time I really liked her was when she was a supporting character in Captain Marvel's book before she became Ms. Marvel. And I guess I liked her when she wore the black costume in Avengers before the whole Marcus incident.








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Iron Man Unit 007

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Well as to her Binary form, that was just a phoenix-knockoff anyway.
I cant say for sure but I think read once that long ago carol was going to be the Phoenix but editorial changed it to Jean Grey.


I wouldn't mind seeing her classic Ms Marvel suits but I'm sure the SJW crybabies will have a fit if they are in the movie. Not that I care but just saying....

warbird: well that basically her back in one of her classic costumes, depowered from binary and a new name.

I suspect she will be suggested to call herself Ms Marvel and may use that name at first, then become Captain Marvel.

As to Binary.....I'm pretty confident we will briefly see her looking a bit like Binary for a moment in the movie...



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Iron Man Unit 007

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The rape story was truly disgusting and shameful. I honestly would love to know what both the writer and the editor were smoking when they thought this was a good idea because it must have been some quality stuff they smoked.

However, the rape story was essentially retconned and washed away and is now filed by Marvel under W.W.N.S.O.T. (We Will NOT Speak of This)

So I really don't think we have to worry about her getting raped in this or any other movie, put it out of your minds and relax. If they did have her get raped they would have to undo it just like Hasbro had to undo the death of Optimus.

Also given that she is the MCU's first female solo movie hero, I doubt she will be raped.

As to her Binary power levels, well Binary was basically a Phoenix-knock off, and I still could swear I read somewhere that she was the original choice to be Phoenix but it was changed to Jean Grey. Still checking on that....

However she was linked to a white hole as Binary and thus gained tremendous cosmic powers. Nowadays that link is gone but if she absorbs enough energy she can go Binary again as when she faced the Phoenix in AvX.


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America's Captain 

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I like how powerful she was. I like the visual aspect. I like that she was with the X-Men. And I like that her power came from a white hole.

I can see Marvel making her potentially as powerful as Binary in the movie. Her default power level would be less but she'd have the ability to power up.

Visially she won't look like Binary except when/if she's engaged in a serious power up. I'd like to see that.

We won't see her with the X-Men in this film for obvious reasons, but maybe eventually we can see her with the X-Men. Of course the best opportunity would be the very movie most of us don't want: X-Men in Space. Still, if Marvel ever does an X-Men in Space film, Carol Danvers would be a great guest star.

As for the white hole - I really wish Marvel would use that, even if only as a one-time deal. I'm a big fan of heroes stepping up to major power, even temporarily.







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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:

      Quote:

      I'm pretty sure all of the moments I'd like to see won't ever be in any movie. And outside of the ones that won't fit MCU Carol, she didn't really have any 80s/90s moments that I can recall. Destroying Broodworld was one.



    Quote:
    The Brood might make a good nemesis for the next movie. Unless Marvel thinks they're too creepy.

The only reason I think they might stay away from them is that they are too much like Xenomorphs.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      After that, I can't recall her doing anything until Starblast, but that wasn't much iirc, and then she came back depowered for her Warbird phase.



    Quote:
    I didn't realize she spent time with the Starjammers. Maybe Marvel could give a nod to that by showing her with a team or crew of semi-heroic aliens.

I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.

But yes, she was with the Starjammers from the day Rogue joined the X-Men (1983) until the Avengers restarted after Heroes Return (1998)... and she became an alcoholic.




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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:
    The shame of it is - most of her iconic moments are bad moments, and therefore won't (and shouldn't) be featured in the movie. That's what makes me shake my head that they chose her to be the subject of the first female movie (not counting Elektra). Moments like:
    - The rape
    - The birth of a child conceived by rape
    - The mind-controlled extended period of rape
    - Rogue turning her into a powerless vegetable
    - Her bout with alcoholism (this is less iconic but still).
    - Her courtmartial in Busiek's Avengers.



    Quote:
    I think she had her best moments with the X-Men (as Binary), but that won't be shown in the movie either.

Although I loved her time in the X-Books, they were pretty lackluster after the Brood Saga. I think her best moments so far were in last decade's Brian Reed series. I do not like all of that Kelly Sue DeConnick stuff... and think some of it is misogynist (oddly enough).


    Quote:
    I didn't read her original series with Claremont as the writer. Did anything of note happen to her in that period?

Like Rev said, not really. Most of it was small arcs that barely affected anything outside of her. The most significant of that period was Mystique (killed her boyfriend, who we later learned was an evil jerk, anyway) and Deathbird being her archnemeses, but they are more X-Villains. She fought AIM and MODOK a bit. Otherwise, just a bunch of also-rans. Grotesk, the Subterranean guy who killed Xavier back in the 60s, showed up for an issue or two. Lizard people showed up another issue or two. The Kree came back just in time for the series to end, but they didn't hang around.




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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Carol entering the Pentagon ... but, contrary to the comics, it would be to read the government's files on her & the Kree.

Maybe, she could encounter Geoffrey Ballard on the way ? \:\-\)
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/centurion.htm

Apparently, she will have her Binary powers (as shown in the trailers) but with her current appearance instead.

I'd like a Brood, a Shi'ar or a Kt'kn to make a cameo but I don't count on it. :-I

NB : The Faceless One is a Kt'kn
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/faceleso.htm







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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.


You're right, they are (in essence).

Maybe the third Guardians of the Galaxy film could feature Captain Marvel.


    Quote:
    But yes, she was with the Starjammers from the day Rogue joined the X-Men (1983) until the Avengers restarted after Heroes Return (1998)... and she became an alcoholic.


So for 15 years if we saw Binary we saw the Starjammers too?

What year did Rogue absorb Carol's powers? Let me see if Wikipedia gives me a clue.

---------------
Claremont effectively "undid" the Marcus story in Avengers Annual #10 (1981). In that story, Danvers is revealed to have returned to Earth—courtesy of Immortus's technology after Marcus continued to age and die of old age—but is attacked by the mutant Rogue, who permanently absorbs the character's abilities and memories. Danvers' memories are restored by Professor X, and an angry confrontation with the Avengers concerning their failure to realize Marcus had brainwashed her follows.[16] Claremont continued to develop the character in the title Uncanny X-Men. Danvers enters the Pentagon and, while wiping the government's files on the X-Men, also deletes all records of herself in a symbolic break with her life as Ms. Marvel.[17] During an adventure in space with the X-Men, Danvers is changed by courtesy of experimentation by the alien race, the Brood, into a newly-empowered character called "Binary".[18] Drawing on the power of a cosmic phenomenon called a white hole, Danvers becomes capable of generating the power of a star. As Binary, the character has a number of encounters with the X-Men,[19] New Mutants,[20] and the British team Excalibur,[21] as well as a solo adventure.[22]
---------------------

OK. So first Rogue did the absorption thing, and then, a little later, Carol had her encounter with the Brood and the white hole.

Now I have to see if I can find that solo adventure.






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,073



    Quote:
    The shame of it is - most of her iconic moments are bad moments, and therefore won't (and shouldn't) be featured in the movie. That's what makes me shake my head that they chose her to be the subject of the first female movie (not counting Elektra). Moments like:
    - The rape
    - The birth of a child conceived by rape
    - The mind-controlled extended period of rape
    - Rogue turning her into a powerless vegetable


This one is a bit of an exaggeration - Carol was stripped of her powers and lost her emotional memories (the other memories were restored to her by Professor X in the same issue, Avengers Annual #10), but she still had lots of useful skills e.g. from her time as a secret agent, so to call her a "vegetable" does her an injustice. IIRC that part of her origin really was only revealed during her time with the X-Men (and when Rogue accessed the memories she had absorbed from Carol), including most importantly her past with Mick Rossi and Wolverine.


    Quote:
    - Her bout with alcoholism (this is less iconic but still).


Yeah, Kurt Busiek being the nostalgia-driven writer that he is, could think of nothing better than to return Carol to her Ms. Marvel powers and then do "Demon in a Bottle 2.0" with her. \:\-P


    Quote:
    - Her courtmartial in Busiek's Avengers.



    Quote:
    I think she had her best moments with the X-Men (as Binary), but that won't be shown in the movie either.


Well, she had two memorable moments with the X-Men as Binary, one with the Brood (which, as Black Guardian already alluded to, probably won't be used as the Brood have been seen as an "Alien" rip-off from their first appearance) and when she punched Rogue through the X-Mansion's roof and into space (which can't be used as they don't yet have the rights to the X-Men characters). Personally I think she was really under-used during her time as Binary and with the Starjammers, but then she was so powerful then that it wasn't easy to use her.


    Quote:
    I didn't read her original series with Claremont as the writer. Did anything of note happen to her in that period?


Not an awful lot, but then the series only lasted 23 issues. Originally she worked for J. Jonah Jameson as editor-in-chief of WOMAN magazine (which gave off a "Lou Grant"-type vibe to the civilian part of much of her series; since she worked in the same building as the Daily Bugle, the original writer (Gerry Conway) had her run across Peter Parker and become gal-pals with Mary Jane Watson). I seriously doubt they're going to want to pick up on that, especially as it was on its way out in the final published issues (She got her pink slip from JJJ in #22).

The costume she originally wore gave rise to criticism, especially due to its weird (but fanservice-y) combination of some scarf-like bands around her neck and a bared midriff. So the costume was changed a couple of times during the run of the series. They got Dave Cockrum to design an all new one, the one that came to be as iconic (IIRC that actually debuted in a Marvel Team-Up story (also written by Claremont) and not in Ms. Marvel).

Her boyfriend, psychiatrist Michael Barnett, wasn't anything to write home about either, and disappeared towards the end of the series (his last appearance was in #22, in #23 Carol is seen dating Sam Adams, one of her co-workers at the magazine). And thirteen years later, in Marvel Super-Heroes Special #10, it was revealed that Barnett was to have been killed in #24 (if I remember correctly - I'm too lazy to dig up the issues).

However, they say a (wo)man is measured by their enemies, and Ms. Marvel in her first series had two who proved enduring - Deathbird (debuted in #9) and Mystique (#16). Had the series continued for a few more issues, it would also have seen the first appearance of Rogue (as shown in Marvel Super-Heroes Special, based on the work that had been done by Claremont and co. when the series was abruptly cancelled). Unfortunately for the Carol Danvers movie Fox still has the rights to Mystique and Rogue, AFAIK. Deathbird, not being a mutant, could probably be used, but she's not that well-known a character outside of comics readers, I think.



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:

    I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.


Could you perhaps elaborate? I find it hard to wrap my head around this claim given that not only the original Guardians of the Galaxy and their series, but also pretty much all prominent individual members of the later incarnation debuted long before the first appearance of the Starjammers. Not being that familiar with the modern Guardians I may be wrong, but the similarity does not seem to go that much further than "a group of aliens and humans having adventures in space" (which would also cover e.g. the LSH).


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:

      I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.



    Quote:
    Could you perhaps elaborate? I find it hard to wrap my head around this claim given that not only the original Guardians of the Galaxy and their series, but also pretty much all prominent individual members of the later incarnation debuted long before the first appearance of the Starjammers. Not being that familiar with the modern Guardians I may be wrong, but the similarity does not seem to go that much further than "a group of aliens and humans having adventures in space" (which would also cover e.g. the LSH).


Pretty sure he means the more modern DnA/Bendis and later iterations of the GotG with Star Lord, Gamora, Groot, Rocket etc not the original (but still quite lame) GotG with Vance Astro, Matrinex, Yondu, Charlie-27 etc.

Which I still think is unfair. Clearly the modern Guardians of the Galaxy are ripping off Farscape more than anything \:\)

John Crichton ...pop culture aware human (Star Lord)
Zhaan...alien plant creature/odd color (Groot/Gamora)
D'argo...warrior (Drax)
Rygel...small sarcastic creature (Rocket)
Aeryn Sun...strong female looking for redemption (Gamora)






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Iron Man Unit 007

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Carol and xmen were captured by the brood. The xmen are infected by the brood to become brood but wolverine, the supreme overhyped mutant escapes and finds them experimenting on Carol as her DNA was still part kree and it interested them.

Her DNA was blasted by brood scanners and tweaked inadvertantly to link to the white hole.


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Menshevik


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Posts: 5,073



    Quote:


      Quote:

        Quote:

        I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.

      Could you perhaps elaborate? I find it hard to wrap my head around this claim given that not only the original Guardians of the Galaxy and their series, but also pretty much all prominent individual members of the later incarnation debuted long before the first appearance of the Starjammers. Not being that familiar with the modern Guardians I may be wrong, but the similarity does not seem to go that much further than "a group of aliens and humans having adventures in space" (which would also cover e.g. the LSH).


    Pretty sure he means the more modern DnA/Bendis and later iterations of the GotG with Star Lord, Gamora, Groot, Rocket etc not the original (but still quite lame) GotG with Vance Astro, Matrinex, Yondu, Charlie-27 etc.


Well, you may call them "lame", but the original incarnation least they managed to sustain a series of their own in the 1970s for ten issues (besides several guest appearances in Defenders, Avengers etc.) and the new one bacame successful in comics and movies while the Starjammers to this day never really overcame their tendency of riding along on the coattails of the X-books since their mythos is now so closely interwoven with that of the Summers family.


    Quote:
    Which I still think is unfair. Clearly the modern Guardians of the Galaxy are ripping off Farscape more than anything \:\)



    Quote:
    John Crichton ...pop culture aware human (Star Lord)
    Zhaan...alien plant creature/odd color (Groot/Gamora)
    D'argo...warrior (Drax)
    Rygel...small sarcastic creature (Rocket)
    Aeryn Sun...strong female looking for redemption (Gamora)

\:\)

Well, it often is easy to correlate members of one group to those of another (on another thread not that long ago I myself pointed out the obvious similarities between the original X-Men and the original Fantastic Four, which works very well despite the original X-Men consisting of six members, not four).

My problem is that I think the word "plagiarized" is too serious an accusations. I wouldn't have complained if Black Guardian had used words like "ripped off", "homaged", "channelled" or whatever. For instance, I would say that you can say that you are allowed say that the Daniel Craig James Bond movies channelled/homaged/imitated the successful Bourne pictures, but to say that they were "nothing but Jason Bourne plagiarized" is a no-no.

“If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish.”
Confucius





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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think the whole reason she hooked up with the Guardians of the Galaxy is because of her past with the Starjammers. That Guardians crew were nothing but Starjammers plagiarized to me.



    Quote:
    You're right, they are (in essence).



    Quote:
    Maybe the third Guardians of the Galaxy film could feature Captain Marvel.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      But yes, she was with the Starjammers from the day Rogue joined the X-Men (1983) until the Avengers restarted after Heroes Return (1998)... and she became an alcoholic.



    Quote:
    So for 15 years if we saw Binary we saw the Starjammers too?

Not really, but she was still joined to them. For instance, in the Starblast story, Starjammers weren't involved, but Binary was still a member.

Over those 15 years, Carol made a mere 30 or so appearances.
- She made a few cameos before the Starjammers left Earth circa Uncanny X-Men #200.
- Then she made another cameo in a New Mutants issue. Magik 'ported into space and briefly saw the Starjammers crew.
- Then a bigger appearance in New Mutants #50-51 to fight Magus the Technarch with the Starjammers.
- There was another cameo in an Excalibur issue before she appeared in the Starjammers 2-issue Spotlight mini.
- the War Skrulls arc of Uncanny X-Men (circa #275) was the next appearance
- the next appearance was in Quasar issues of Galactic Storm (no Starjammers, but her connection was the Shi'ar)
- then an Avengers arc (Avengers vs Starjammers was a cover)
- then Starblast
- next was the X-Men Unlimited issue that destroyed her white hole
- then a Silver Surfer issue before returning to the Avengers in 1998.


    Quote:
    What year did Rogue absorb Carol's powers? Let me see if Wikipedia gives me a clue.

Yup. 1981.


    Quote:
    OK. So first Rogue did the absorption thing, and then, a little later, Carol had her encounter with the Brood and the white hole.



    Quote:
    Now I have to see if I can find that solo adventure.

It wasn't a solo adventure. From circa Uncanny X-Men #160 to 171, Carol was a token pseudo-member of the X-Men. Xavier was helping her reclaim her stolen memories. After the Brood Saga, she spent most of her time with the Starjammers, who stayed in orbit around the Earth for a while (until Xavier joined the crew in #200/201). The X-Men accepting Rogue was a final straw and she told them to screw off.




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The Black Guardian

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If not then they certainly draw from the exact same archetypes.

Smart-ass human leader with his bad-ass alien girlfriend. Huge alien guy with his tiny alien companion. Another bad-ass alien guy with a blade thrown in. But the original Guardians did not fit this.

And yes, Rev, I think Farscape owes something to Starjammers, as well. Probably why I loved it so much.




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Menshevik


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    Quote:
    If not then they certainly draw from the exact same archetypes.


Superficial and vague resemblances do not equal plagiarism.


    Quote:
    Smart-ass human leader with his bad-ass alien girlfriend.


Kitty Pryde is an alien? News to me. Oh, and Star-Lord is half-alien while Corsair isn't. Gamora already was "the deadliest woman in the Galaxy" before the Starjammers' first appearance, while Hepzibah's narrative importance largely derives from the fact that she's Corsair's partner.


    Quote:
    Huge alien guy with his tiny alien companion.


Tree-like being, reptilian alien, what's the diff? But honestly, Cr'reee (I rather suspect that after four decades the name and the looks are still the only interesting things about the character - Cr'reee does not rate an individual (sub-)entry on wikipedia or in OHOTMUDE) is more of a pet(1) than a companion. Rocket Raccoon was a (minor, granted) individual character in his own right before he joined the Guardians.

(1) The Ch'od sub-entry of the Starjammers entry in OHOTMUDE merely notes: "Ch'od is accompanied by his small, furry pet Cr'reee", and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27od uses a similar phrase.


    Quote:
    Another bad-ass alien guy with a blade thrown in. But the original Guardians did not fit this.


Well, Yondu's arrowtips are blades of a kind. The original Guardians' leader, Vance Astro, is a normal, white American male like Corsair after him. Martinex is decidedy non-mammalian in appearance, like Groot before and Ch'od after him.

Hey, I love the Starjammers. But let's not exaggerate their importance.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    Well, you may call them "lame", but the original incarnation least they managed to sustain a series of their own in the 1970s for ten issues (besides several guest appearances in Defenders, Avengers etc.) and the new one bacame successful in comics and movies while the Starjammers to this day never really overcame their tendency of riding along on the coattails of the X-books since their mythos is now so closely interwoven with that of the Summers family.


I don't find that particularly impressive. But I also don't find the Starjammers to be impressive either.

(I really quite loathed the 90's GotG ongoing series...everything always revolved around characters from the 20th Century)





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    And yes, Rev, I think Farscape owes something to Starjammers, as well. Probably why I loved it so much.


Well I was comparing the GotG to Farscape I think. But your point that it all leads back to the Starjammers is valid I suppose.

So Corsair would be John Critchton. Raza would be D'Argo. Hepzibah would be Chiana (they even look alike to my eyes). Not sure who Ch'od would be. Sikorsky could be Pilot I guess.





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Menshevik


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    Quote:
    (I really quite loathed the 90's GotG ongoing series...everything always revolved around characters from the 20th Century)


With a mixed group involving time-travellers, there always was a tendency to write the stories around the character the present-day reader can most easily relate to. The original GotG series was set in the 30th century, but the team was led by 20th-century American boy Vance Astro. The Starjammers don't involve time-travel as such, but they come from a culture that is technologically far advanced beyond 20th-century Earth, the home of their leader Christopher Summers. In both cases the leader of the team is arguably the member least familiar with the world it is set in. And it has to be said that the other members of the Starjammers narratively got a bit of a raw deal vis-à-vis Corsair, tending to be treated as his supporting characters (it didn't really get better for them when Binary and Professor X joined them). Corsair's ascendacy is even highlighted by the fact that he was the only one in the original team who used a code-name and that some of the others go by nicknames he gave them. Nicknames that are firmly based in the culture of America in the (post-WW2) 20th century: Sikorsky (after the helicopter manufacturer), Hepzibah (after the character from Walt Kelly's "Pogo") and Waldo (after the hero of a science fiction story by Robert Heinlein).

In a way it is not dissimilar for nationally mixed teams set in the present. The leaders of the X-teams tend to be North Americans born in the present (this of course includes Cable), others are rare exceptions and usually have short tenures (Nightcrawler in the X-Men, Karma as the original leader of the New Mutants (and even she is a naturalized US citizen), Magneto).




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Kitty was little more than a footnote and hasn't been around in a while. I'm really confused why you'd even mention her.

It's irrelevant how long Gamora's been around. The fact she was ever placed in Guardians is part of the reason for my feelings on this.




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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,073



    Quote:
    Kitty was little more than a footnote and hasn't been around in a while. I'm really confused why you'd even mention her.


Well, I haven't read many appearances of the modern GotG and so to make sure I checked at wikipedia. And neither
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star-Lord
nor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamora
has anything to say about the two being boyfriend and girlfriend in the comics. In contrast the article on Star-Lord has quite a bit to say about Peter Quill and Kitty Pryde's romantic relationship, how they were planning to get married and how they broke off their engagement etc. etc. So on that evidence it seems that in the comics Quill/Pryde was more serious and significant than Quill/Gamora, which apparently is only a thing in the MCU, where Kitty as yet does not exist.

Also, Gamora is the only female Guardian in the first movie, so it conforms to the good old Silver Age rule that in a team with just one female member that woman is the leader's girlfriend, fiancée or wife (vide Reed&Sue, Scott&Jean, Vance&Nikki, Chris&Hepzibah - Janet&Hank Pym is not an aversion as they were already a two-man team before the Avengers were founded).

I now did a double-check here
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Peter_Quill_(Earth-616)
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Gamora_Zen_Whoberi_Ben_Titan_(Earth-7528)

Still nothing about them being a couple. So apparently the only member of the GotG to whom the descriptor "Star-Lord's girlfriend" applied in the comics would appear to be Kitty Pryde (who was also his fiancée).




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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I liked her much better as Binary than Ms/Captain Marvel. However, what I didn't like is that they never really did anything with her. Although I've always liked Carol, the big thing I didn't like about her was that she was always in Mar-Vell's shadow. Binary had the potential to overcome this. Warbird too, but I didn't like the name, costume, etc.

I also preferred Carol with the X-Men or Starjammers than with the Avengers. To this day it pisses me off that the X-Men accepted Rogue over Carol.




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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,073



    Quote:
    I like how powerful she was. I like the visual aspect. I like that she was with the X-Men. And I like that her power came from a white hole.



    Quote:
    I can see Marvel making her potentially as powerful as Binary in the movie. Her default power level would be less but she'd have the ability to power up.



    Quote:
    Visially she won't look like Binary except when/if she's engaged in a serious power up. I'd like to see that.



    Quote:
    We won't see her with the X-Men in this film for obvious reasons, but maybe eventually we can see her with the X-Men. Of course the best opportunity would be the very movie most of us don't want: X-Men in Space. Still, if Marvel ever does an X-Men in Space film, Carol Danvers would be a great guest star.



    Quote:
    As for the white hole - I really wish Marvel would use that, even if only as a one-time deal. I'm a big fan of heroes stepping up to major power, even temporarily.


I liked the costume and the power-up. It was a chance for Carol to make a real fresh start and transcend the baggage that she had accumulated over the years, that of being a derivative heroine. After all, as Ms. Marvel she had been a female version of an established hero, and one to whom she used to be a supporting character at that. Her powers weren't sufficiently different (seventh sense instead of cosmic awareness, slightly different strength levels) to matter.(1) Then there was the whole rape and being-betrayed-by-her-fellow-Avengers back story. So this was, I still think, powering up and starting afresh was a good idea. The only drawback was that, like Phoenix before her, she now was too powerful to narratively function as a permanent member of the X-Men. And that was even more of a handicap than it had been with Phoenix because Carol wasn't a mutant. It wouldn't have done for the single non-mutant X-Man (and also the only one who really never had shown any notably interest in "mutant issues" before the X-Men offered to help her) to have the potential to make all her mutant teammates look like fifth wheels. So it was a logical step to send her off into deep space where she could be expected to run into . Unfortunately that also meant that she appeared only very infrequently as the Starjammers weren't all that important in Marvel's general picture (it might have worked better in the context of something like the Infinity Watch avant la lettre, but that's just idle speculation on my part).

I really disliked that when Busiek brought her back to Earth they returned her to the costume and powers she had had up until Avengers #200 and Annual #10, that he made her rejoin the team and turned her into a victim (of alcoholism this time) again. The new codename "Warbird" did not help, and in retrospect looks like a typical 1990s "edgy" codename (like the renaming of Thunderbird II to Warpath).

(1) Also, apart from the special senses, Mar-Vell's and the original Ms. Marvel powers were generic (super-strength, invulnerability, flight). Rogue stole them (and really never used the seventh sense), lost them, and now has practically the same ones after permanently absorbing Wonder Man's powers.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



Not particularly important but as me and Black Guardian discussed before I believe Carol got her powers BEFORE Eon gave Mar-Vell his cosmic awareness. So her actually having the seventh sense power should predate Mar-Vell's cosmic awareness. (although he probably used his ability before she did...I don't think she used that 7th sense until she got her ongoing).







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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Not particularly important but as me and Black Guardian discussed before I believe Carol got her powers BEFORE Eon gave Mar-Vell his cosmic awareness. So her actually having the seventh sense power should predate Mar-Vell's cosmic awareness. (although he probably used his ability before she did...I don't think she used that 7th sense until she got her ongoing).


Yes, you're right. One of the recurring problems of Marvel's Marvel Family of characters is that their abilities often change.

Both Mar-Vell & Carol had their powers often upgraded during the Bronze Age.

When Marvel gave Carol superpowers, they retconned the story with the Psyche-Magnitron ... except that they gave her the powers of 1977 Captain Marvel, not the powers that Mar-Vell had at the time of the event.

BTW, I think that current writers are making the same mistake nowadays.
For example, current writers are making a mistake when they think that her main powers come from the famous 1st event with the Psyche-Magnitron or from her Kree lineage.

Even during the Bronze Age, she was exposed to the power of the Psyche-Magnitron twice and, apparently, also the Cavourite Crystals.

Also, her first costume had some of the powers of the Nega-Bands before they were transfered to her body by the the 2nd exposure to the Psyche-Magnitron. More exactly, it was direct exposure to the radiation of the Psyche-Magnitron's Power Core unit.


You'll notice that the Power Core Unit looks like a Cosmic Containment Unit. So, the Psyche-Magnitron could be the prototype for a Kree Cosmic Cube.


The way I see it, when the Brood experimented on Carol, they released all her potential, not just the hybrid DNA of the Kree and the Earthlings.


Nota Bene :

(1) Actually, writers tried to find very convoluted ways to give both Mar-Vell & Carol generic powers ... except that they change all the time the origin story that gave them these powers, lol. (^_^')
For example, the Nega-Bands & Quantum Bands are directly inspired by Marvel Boy's wristbands.
https://www.writeups.org/marvel-boy-1950s-atlas-marvel-comics/

(2) It has never been confirmed but, given their characteristics, the Cavourite Crystals could be linked to the Kree Moonstones and, thus, the Lifestone Tree ...

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Moonstones
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Lifestone_Tree

1st exposure to a Cavourite Crystal ...


2nd exposure to another Cavourite Crystal




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689






    Quote:
    Even during the Bronze Age, she was exposed to the power of the Psyche-Magnitron twice and, apparently, also the Cavourite Crystals.


When was the 2nd exposure to the Psyche Magnitron?



    Quote:

    NB : Actually, writers tried to find very convoluted ways to give both Mar-Vell & Carol powers that were more or less nearly the same than the 1950s Marvel Boy ... except that they change all the time the story that gave these powers, lol. (^_^')


1. Didn't Claremont do almost this exact same thing with Carol seeing her alternate selves in the cavorite crystal with Dazzler when she looked into the Siege Perilous. (I'm thinking of that time John Fogerty got sued for ripping off...John Fogerty!)

2. So did Grayson ever have the quantum bands or not? It sounds like Grayson and Mar-Vell never had the real quantum bands. Why would the alien who pretended to be Grayson have access to the real Quantum Bands but the real Grayson not have them? So confused.







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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    When was the 2nd exposure to the Psyche Magnitron?


In Ms. Marvel #4 (1977)
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/destructorkorman.htm

It was the last Bronze Age appearance of Kerwin Korman
(The obscure villain who was supposed to become the Lex Luthor/Dr. Sivana/Dr. Octopus/Wizard of Ms. Marvel if he had not been forgotten by Marvel writers)

Korman & the Doomsday Man were apparently destroyed by the explosion of the Power Unit of the Psyche-Magnitron.


    Quote:
    1. Didn't Claremont do almost this exact same thing with Carol seeing her alternate selves in the cavorite crystal with Dazzler when she looked into the Siege Perilous. (I'm thinking of that time John Fogerty got sued for ripping off...John Fogerty!)

Yes, absolutely ! \:\-D


    Quote:
    2. So did Grayson ever have the quantum bands or not? It sounds like Grayson and Mar-Vell never had the real quantum bands. Why would the alien who pretended to be Grayson have access to the real Quantum Bands but the real Grayson not have them? So confused.


Currently, it is a mess without viable explanation ... (-_-')
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_Boy:_The_Uranian_Vol_1_1
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_Boy:_The_Uranian_Vol_1_2


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