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Comic Book Guy




Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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PDT




> the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor

When you put it like that it sounds so silly. ;\)


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Common-Sense, Tingling!




> > the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor
>
> When you put it like that it sounds so silly. ;\)

Yeah, that’s like describing the Hobgoblin as “some random fashion designer who keeps his weapons in a purse” or Doc Ock as “a tubby middle-aged glass-jawed physicist who uses his lab equipment to commit crimes”. If you word it right you can make any character sound silly. After all, Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.



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PDT




> Yeah, that’s like describing the Hobgoblin as “some random fashion designer who keeps his weapons in a purse” or Doc Ock as “a tubby middle-aged glass-jawed physicist who uses his lab equipment to commit crimes”. If you word it right you can make any character sound silly. After all, Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.

Well, sort of. I mean, he does have a bit of a point. At least Doc Ock and Venom have superpowers that give Spidey a lot of trouble, but I mean...the Jackal was just a middle age guy with a furry costume. It's a bit weird how he was able to slap Peter around like that.


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Comp




> > Yeah, that’s like describing the Hobgoblin as “some random fashion designer who keeps his weapons in a purse” or Doc Ock as “a tubby middle-aged glass-jawed physicist who uses his lab equipment to commit crimes”. If you word it right you can make any character sound silly. After all, Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.
>
> Well, sort of. I mean, he does have a bit of a point. At least Doc Ock and Venom have superpowers that give Spidey a lot of trouble, but I mean...the Jackal was just a middle age guy with a furry costume. It's a bit weird how he was able to slap Peter around like that.

In general, I think Conway wrote Spider-Man as a lot less powerful than he's considered today.

I remember a book, a team-up with the Punisher, where Spider-Man was knocked out by a simple lead pipe to the head, wielded by an ordinary thug.

-Comp


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entzauberung




> > > Yeah, that’s like describing the Hobgoblin as “some random fashion designer who keeps his weapons in a purse” or Doc Ock as “a tubby middle-aged glass-jawed physicist who uses his lab equipment to commit crimes”. If you word it right you can make any character sound silly. After all, Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.
> >
> > Well, sort of. I mean, he does have a bit of a point. At least Doc Ock and Venom have superpowers that give Spidey a lot of trouble, but I mean...the Jackal was just a middle age guy with a furry costume. It's a bit weird how he was able to slap Peter around like that.
>
> In general, I think Conway wrote Spider-Man as a lot less powerful than he's considered today.
>

In general, I think Gerry Conway wrote it like if you just put on a costume or a gimmick you automatically become awesome. There's also the instance where Harry Osborn as Green Goblin can match Spider-Man in a close range fist fight, for example.




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Mr Honey Bunny




> Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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Blargh




It's not just Conway either. The various gangs, like the Enforcers and the group with Princess Python gave Spidey a lot of trouble. And when originally imagined, Green Goblin didn't have super strength, only "enhanced."

But to the topic, I think Shocker. So many of Spidey's enemies suffer from overconfidence or a personal vendeta. Shocker, at one point, knocked out Spider-Man and would be able to kill him, but decided not to because the price on his head alive was more than if he was dead. Shocker's a thug, a merc, not an overtly evil villain, and that knowing his limitations makes him a foe to be reckoned with.


> In general, I think Gerry Conway wrote it like if you just put on a costume or a gimmick you automatically become awesome. There's also the instance where Harry Osborn as Green Goblin can match Spider-Man in a close range fist fight, for example.
>
>


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Dr. Shallot




> Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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Jeffers




> > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).















"The grassroots support from the SG message board has been fantastic. Those fans have managed to keep Spider-Girl alive. They never gave up on the title. Not even when Marvel canceled it and told me there was no hope of ever bringing it back. Spider-Girl lives because of her fans!"


--Tom DeFalco




Check out Jeffers' film reviews at Rotten Tomatoes.







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Dr. Shallot




> > > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).
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> "The grassroots support from the SG message board has been fantastic. Those fans have managed to keep Spider-Girl alive. They never gave up on the title. Not even when Marvel canceled it and told me there was no hope of ever bringing it back. Spider-Girl lives because of her fans!"
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Check out Jeffers' film reviews at Rotten Tomatoes.

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Comic Book Guy




> > Yeah, that’s like describing the Hobgoblin as “some random fashion designer who keeps his weapons in a purse” or Doc Ock as “a tubby middle-aged glass-jawed physicist who uses his lab equipment to commit crimes”. If you word it right you can make any character sound silly. After all, Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.
>
> Well, sort of. I mean, he does have a bit of a point. At least Doc Ock and Venom have superpowers that give Spidey a lot of trouble, but I mean...the Jackal was just a middle age guy with a furry costume. It's a bit weird how he was able to slap Peter around like that.

It makes sense that Doc Ock can knock Spidey out with his tentacles. What didn't make sense was in PPTSSM Annual #1, where Doc Ock trapped Spidey inside a cargo hold (I think) on a ship, in which the walls were slicked-down so Spidey couldn't stick to the walls and thus couldn't get a "footing." Doc Ock used all of his tentacles to anchor himself to the walls, then punched out Spidey with his bare fists, using what he described as his "own not inconsiderable strength." Hello??


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TalesMN




> Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.

LOL, what a priceless view on Venom! \:D


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DeathBug




> > the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor
>
> When you put it like that it sounds so silly. ;\)

I thought the Jackal had the same strength-enhancing harness that he built for the Grizzly. It was never stated as such, but it made sense. He did mention in Amazing 149 that he built special weaponry to use as the Jackal; it had to have been more than the clawed gloves.

And if he didn't, why the heck wouldn't he?


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Common-Sense, Tingling!




> > Venom is just some guy wearing Spidey’s dirty laundry.
>
> LOL, what a priceless view on Venom! \:D

I try. Still, it does go to show that the silliness of Spidey’s Foes doesn’t JUST extend to the “lame” ones (like Grizzly being a man in a bear suit). No, this is a guy whose third biggest villain is a hack reporter (or now a lousy PI) wearing one of his old outfits.

The sooner Marvel realizes that this is a GOOD thing the better. I’m sick of comic writers who are ashamed of superheroes and supervillains.






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Scott




Sorry, but no amount of physical training can prepare an enhanced human to trade punches with a fictional character who can pick up cars and dodge bulllets.


> Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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GammaSpidey




> > > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).
>
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> "The grassroots support from the SG message board has been fantastic. Those fans have managed to keep Spider-Girl alive. They never gave up on the title. Not even when Marvel canceled it and told me there was no hope of ever bringing it back. Spider-Girl lives because of her fans!"
>
>
>
--Tom DeFalco

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Check out Jeffers' film reviews at Rotten Tomatoes.

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Mac




Tell that to fans of Bats.

> Sorry, but no amount of physical training can prepare an enhanced human to trade punches with a fictional character who can pick up cars and dodge bulllets.
>
>
> > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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Blargh




> Tell that to fans of Bats.

Or any number of low/non super powered characters. Captain America only has peak human abilities, not super. Apart from his heightened senses and radar sense, Daredevil is normal. Bullseye, Elektra, and the Kingpin are all non-powered. Even in the spider verse, Black Cat's only power was her latent bad-luck mutation, and that hasn't been used in a very long time, right? Everything else is from technology.


>
> > Sorry, but no amount of physical training can prepare an enhanced human to trade punches with a fictional character who can pick up cars and dodge bulllets.
> >
> >
> > > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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Scott




> Tell that to fans of Bats.

I will. In a heartbeat. I have imminent respect for martial arts. In point of fact, that is how I make my living and I have practiced all over the globe. I will say it again: No amount of training can overcome bullet dodging speed and the sheer strength Spider-man exhibits--even during Conway's baffling runs. Not a knock on Batman. Not a knock on the Punisher. Personally I think it detracts from the ability to relate to these human characters when they are portrayed as holding their own with science-fictional characters and their impossible superhuman abilities.
>
> > Sorry, but no amount of physical training can prepare an enhanced human to trade punches with a fictional character who can pick up cars and dodge bulllets.
> >
> >
> > > Which villain, given his powers (or lack thereof), has been the most ridiculously successful against Spider-Man? A couple I can think of are the Jackal back in the '70s, who won every battle he had with Spidey despite having no superhuman powers and being a probably fortysomething college professor, and Hammerhead, whose metallic skull apparently protects his entire body from injury (to the point that his being at ground zero of a nuclear reactor exploding turns him into ethereal form rather than kills him).


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Comic Book Guy




> I thought the Jackal had the same strength-enhancing harness that he built for the Grizzly. It was never stated as such, but it made sense. He did mention in Amazing 149 that he built special weaponry to use as the Jackal; it had to have been more than the clawed gloves.

I don't remember the exact wording in ASM #149, so I don't know whether he used a term that could refer to multiple weapons; if he did, then it could've included the exoskeleton. Yes, it would've made sense for him to have worn an exoskeleton similar to that which he made for the Grizzly, but I think if he'd done so he would've mentioned it at some point. When he described his origin, he specifically mentioned having created the claws and having undergone "athletic training," but not using an exoskeleton (though obviously he created one for the Grizzly). If he'd worn an exoskeleton, too, I think he would've mentioned that. Unfortunately, because of his total domination of Spidey, to the point where Spidey couldn't even hit him once, we don't know whether he had the same sort of invulnerability to injury that the exoskeleton gave the Grizzly. (I also wonder how, given that his aptitude was in biochemistry and not engineering, he was able to devise the Grizzly's exoskeleton. It probably been more realistic for Professor Warren to have created a strength-enhancing potion. Then again, how many 15-year-olds are capable of inventing webbing and the webshooters with which to spin it? \:\) )

> And if he didn't, why the heck wouldn't he?

Possibly he wanted only those abilities or weapons which were consistent with those of a Jackal. As he put it in ASM #149, "A Jackal has shiny claws." But a jackal doesn't have superhuman strength, the way a grizzly bear does. A lot of supervillains (assuming for the sake of argument the Jackal counts as one) could be more deadly than they are if they used additionally, readily available means. For example, the Vulture could wear metallic talons. (The third Vulture, who appeared around ASM #127-28, had natural talons.) Doctor Octopus could carry a machine gun. As I recall, Doctor Doom's own armor is strength-enhancing, but he created a much more powerful exoskeleton for some other supervillain to wear.

Most of the time, when the Jackal beat Spidey in the '70s, it was because his status as Spidey's "friend" enabled him to evade Spidey's Spider-Sense, so that he was able to sneak up on him and strike the first blow with his either electrically-charged or drugged claws. As I've noted in a more recent thread, it never made sense that he wouldn't trigger Spidey's Spider-Sense.

Interestingly enough, the Jackal was originally written, in his first appearances in ASM #129-30, significantly different from how he turned out later. Then, he thinks about how killing Spidey is just the first step in taking over the city. It's only later on that it turns out Spidey's death is the only end he seeks. I wonder if Gerry Conway changed his mind midway about how he wanted to use the Jackal.

I'm aware that the Jackal came back in the '90s. Was he as dominant of Spidey then as well?




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Jeremiah Ecks




> Captain America only has peak human abilities, not super.

But his ability means that he is near practically perfect. No other human can reach that perfection, not even Batman or Punisher, why is why the Super Soldier serum is so special. So Cap is a bit of a 'naughty' example.

>Apart from his heightened senses and radar sense, Daredevil is normal.

I was always under the impression that all of his senses were heightened, and therefore, since his sense of touch was heightened, he has super-strength? Correct me if I'm wrong. I've just never regarded Daredevil with normal level strength ability.

> Bullseye, Elektra, and the Kingpin are all non-powered.

Until we find out Bullseye is a Mutant, like Taskmaster. ;\) Actually, Taskmaster is a good example also of a non-powered bad guy... until the dreaded retcon.
Elektra... she has ninja abilities to make up for it. She can actually psychically transfer her mind from place to place and influence people telepathically. She can, I think, also teleport, or am I wrong? In essence, Elektra has learned enough supernatural arts to no longer classify as 'non-powered'.
The Kingpin has always bothered me as there is simply no natural way for anybody to be as built and as fast as Fisk is. I've always secrely suspected him to be a Mutant.

>Even in the spider verse, Black Cat's only power was her latent bad-luck mutation, and that hasn't been used in a very long time, right? Everything else is from technology.

Felicia lost her powers for a while thanks to the Chameleon and never regained them. All of her current powers are from the Tinkerer, but I suspect in one retcon or another she's recovered either her old powers or gained some new ones. But yes, I remember Felicia making a jump straight up in the air and finding it difficult to suspend my disbelief at that point.

Back onto Punisher, that man once went toe to toe with Venom... now that's stretching credibility.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who will defend Batman as the only example of a human being able to stand up to whomever he damn well pleases...


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Jeremiah Ecks




> I'm aware that the Jackal came back in the '90s. Was he as dominant of Spidey then as well?

By that point, Warren had mutated his body to actually more resemble a Jackal, so the point gets moot by then. Your point of Jackal wanting to take over the city is also brought up when Warren comes back because he tries to make a genetic bomb to blow people down to their primordial soup for him to genetically tamper with mankind. Also, there's a lot of nancy-pancy stuff which no sense about the High Evolutionary and I tend to ignore everything about it now anyway.

But the 'retcon' of Jackal wanting to blow mankind sky-high for his own genetic experimentation kind of covers your correct query of why Warren wanted to take over the city in the first place. Now that doesn't negate your original point - did Conway plan the Jackal to be Miles Warren all along and if he did, why did he include this line with Jackal's first appearance if all Jackal was bothered about was Gwen Stacy?

(My theory is that it wasn't planned, because Conway only later brought Gwen's clone into it because Stan Lee complained about the death of Gwen. So that last moment retcon of Gwen 'returning' probably needed some kind of rationale and the Jackal probably fit as the character most likely to pull it off)

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wonders what powers the current Jackal has...


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Blargh






> But his ability means that he is near practically perfect. No other human can reach that perfection, not even Batman or Punisher, why is why the Super Soldier serum is so special. So Cap is a bit of a 'naughty' example.



I'll grant you that. But it makes it a bit harder to believe when some super-powered villain appears and Cap somehow beats him without much trouble.



> I was always under the impression that all of his senses were heightened, and therefore, since his sense of touch was heightened, he has super-strength? Correct me if I'm wrong. I've just never regarded Daredevil with normal level strength ability.



His sense of touch is indeed heightened, but strength is not a sense. Daredevil rarely takes on super-powered beings without the assistance of other heroes. He is a master in many martial arts, but his strength, like many in the MU, is someone for his age, weight, and height who engages in regular, extensive exercise.





> Until we find out Bullseye is a Mutant, like Taskmaster. ;\) Actually, Taskmaster is a good example also of a non-powered bad guy... until the dreaded retcon.



I'm not too familiar with Taskmaster. Care to tell?



> Elektra... she has ninja abilities to make up for it. She can actually psychically transfer her mind from place to place and influence people telepathically. She can, I think, also teleport, or am I wrong? In essence, Elektra has learned enough supernatural arts to no longer classify as 'non-powered'.



Ninja abilities are still just that, abilities. She had to train to be that good, like Cap, Bucky, or any other number of experts in martial arts in the MU.



I've never heard of the teleport, but I have heard and read her influencing people. I like to toss that up to an intimidation in training to battle rather than a genuine super ability. Otherwise, how'd she get it? Bitten by a telepathic spider?



> The Kingpin has always bothered me as there is simply no natural way for anybody to be as built and as fast as Fisk is. I've always secrely suspected him to be a Mutant.



It really depends on who is writing him. He isn't FAST, per say, but whenever someone encounters him, they think they'll be able to just run circles. I think agile is a better word, since he has been shown in many comics in the weight room or practicing with his body guards. I wouldn't put it beyond Fisk to be using steroids or MGH, but that's just speculation on my part.



> Felicia lost her powers for a while thanks to the Chameleon and never regained them. All of her current powers are from the Tinkerer, but I suspect in one retcon or another she's recovered either her old powers or gained some new ones. But yes, I remember Felicia making a jump straight up in the air and finding it difficult to suspend my disbelief at that point.



Yeah, they all have unreasonable scenes of power. During the '90s, Spider-Man picked up a building and tossed it with one finger.



> Back onto Punisher, that man once went toe to toe with Venom... now that's stretching credibility.



I'm guessing he used a flamethrower.


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Jeremiah Ecks




> His sense of touch is indeed heightened, but strength is not a sense. Daredevil rarely takes on super-powered beings without the assistance of other heroes.

Yeah, I dunno why I always supposed Daredevil had super-human strength. Anybody else wanna back me up..? Noo...? \:\)
Actually, that makes DD a lot more unbelievable for me now. \^_\^ It's one thing for Punisher who takes on more 'street level' bad guys, but DD has even fought Doctor Doom level baddies...

> I'm not too familiar with Taskmaster. Care to tell?

Michelinie created the character as only a human who was extremely intuitive and could watch and copy any other person's fighting techniques based off simply seeing it in action. He was known to implement quite a few manouevers performed by Daredevil after watching him, and that's no mean feat. So that made Tasky an amazing hand-to-hand combatant as he could essentially do a 'human version' of what Rogue does to Mutant powers - see and copy. Alas, a future retcon decided that that would be too unrealistic so they decided to make Taskmaster a Mutant, which is actually a cheap way out if you ask me. I was happy with Taskmaster being a human.
(This also keeps this on topic 'cause Tasky is a Spidey villain. ;\) )

> Ninja abilities are still just that, abilities. She had to train to be that good, like Cap, Bucky, or any other number of experts in martial arts in the MU.
> I've never heard of the teleport, but I have heard and read her influencing people. I like to toss that up to an intimidation in training to battle rather than a genuine super ability. Otherwise, how'd she get it? Bitten by a telepathic spider?

Ninja abilities in the MU are capable of doing supernatural arts that are otherwise physically impossible. The Hand can summon people back from the dead (Dr. Octopus and Elektra, for example) and have been shown to shadow-port on occasion. I wasn't sure if Elektra too had done that but perhaps you're right and she never did.
Her telepathic nature has been shown to affect people who aren't even in the same room as she is (I'm sorry I wish I could give issue number? I'm going off vague memories) but I'd simply say 'it has some kind of occult element to it and best leave the rest of the explanations to somebody else. ;\) ' I see Elektra possessing some kind of extra-power, but only from this MU understanding of nunjitsu, which isn't exactly an accurate one - just as MU martial arts can beat ANYBODY. ;\) What rubbish. \^_\^ Amusing rubbish, nontheless...

> I wouldn't put it beyond Fisk to be using steroids or MGH, but that's just speculation on my part.

I'd go with that. Makes more sense than him just being 'big'. ;\)

> Yeah, they all have unreasonable scenes of power. During the '90s, Spider-Man picked up a building and tossed it with one finger.

I remember that! \:\)

> > Back onto Punisher, that man once went toe to toe with Venom... now that's stretching credibility.
> I'm guessing he used a flamethrower.

At one point he used a sonic device but Venom destroyed it. Apart from that, Punny and Venom actually had a FIST FIGHT. Okay, Punny got pretty beaten, but the fact that ONE punch off Venom didn't collapse Castle's ribs like toilet paper is beyond me.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who still likes Taskmaster. \^_\^


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Edward Whelan




> It's not just Conway either. The various gangs, like the Enforcers and the group with Princess Python gave Spidey a lot of trouble. And when originally imagined, Green Goblin didn't have super strength, only "enhanced."
>
> But to the topic, I think Shocker. So many of Spidey's enemies suffer from overconfidence or a personal vendeta. Shocker, at one point, knocked out Spider-Man and would be able to kill him, but decided not to because the price on his head alive was more than if he was dead. Shocker's a thug, a merc, not an overtly evil villain, and that knowing his limitations makes him a foe to be reckoned with.
>

It's "The Shocker" not "Shocker" \:\-\) and I agree with you.


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