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Past-Watch




Was it ever explained what the symbiote was doing in the machine Spidey was using to repair his suit in the original Secret Wars? Did it specifically choose him or was just just at the wrong place at the wrong time?


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durabill




> Was it ever explained what the symbiote was doing in the machine Spidey was using to repair his suit in the original Secret Wars? Did it specifically choose him or was just just at the wrong place at the wrong time?

I don't think it was ever explained what that machine was. If I remember correctly The Wasp told spidey that there was a machine that would make him a new uniform by reading his thoughts. Spidey unfortunately used the wrong machine and the symbiote was released.
So I'm guessing wrong place, wrong time. It would be a cool story to see though if the symbiote had actually directed Spidey to choose the wrong machine with a little mental push.

Durabill


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Spider-Hulk




> > Was it ever explained what the symbiote was doing in the machine Spidey was using to repair his suit in the original Secret Wars? Did it specifically choose him or was just just at the wrong place at the wrong time?
>
> I don't think it was ever explained what that machine was. If I remember correctly The Wasp told spidey that there was a machine that would make him a new uniform by reading his thoughts. Spidey unfortunately used the wrong machine and the symbiote was released.
> So I'm guessing wrong place, wrong time. It would be a cool story to see though if the symbiote had actually directed Spidey to choose the wrong machine with a little mental push.
>
> Durabill

Don't take this to the bank... but, IIRC I heard "somehwere" and when I say "Somewhere" I'm thinking from that Toxin mini-series (Which I barely remember reading)... that the machine which Spider-Man used was in fact holding the symbiote prisoner... His thoughts directed the machine to release the prisoner.


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Pengi




> Don't take this to the bank... but, IIRC I heard "somehwere" and when I say "Somewhere" I'm thinking from that Toxin mini-series (Which I barely remember reading)... that the machine which Spider-Man used was in fact holding the symbiote prisoner...

Was the prisoner angle established in Planet of the Symbiotes? It was imprisoned because it wanted to bond with its hosts instead of taking them over? I didn't like that angle at all, how they turned the symbiotes into an evil race.


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Spider-Hulk




> > Don't take this to the bank... but, IIRC I heard "somehwere" and when I say "Somewhere" I'm thinking from that Toxin mini-series (Which I barely remember reading)... that the machine which Spider-Man used was in fact holding the symbiote prisoner...
>
> Was the prisoner angle established in Planet of the Symbiotes? It was imprisoned because it wanted to bond with its hosts instead of taking them over? I didn't like that angle at all, how they turned the symbiotes into an evil race.

YES! Spot on Pengi that's the stuff!

The Venom symbiote wanted to work with the host rather than just take them over completely.

I don't think that was the right call either to just say symbiote = evil but, having said that I can see how they came to that conclusion given how the symbiotes amplify aggression.


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Pengi




> I don't think that was the right call either to just say symbiote = evil but, having said that I can see how they came to that conclusion given how the symbiotes amplify aggression.

But where was that established? The symbiote didn't make Peter any more aggressive. Eddie Brock and Cletus Cassidy were already bastards. In his recent podcast David Michellinie pretty much said as much, that the symbiote bonded with other people wouldn't necessarily be evil like Venom.

Did the aggression angle come from the 1994 TV series?


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Spider-Hulk




> > I don't think that was the right call either to just say symbiote = evil but, having said that I can see how they came to that conclusion given how the symbiotes amplify aggression.
>
> But where was that established? The symbiote didn't make Peter any more aggressive. Eddie Brock and Cletus Cassidy were already bastards. In his recent podcast David Michellinie pretty much said as much, that the symbiote bonded with other people wouldn't necessarily be evil like Venom.
>
> Did the aggression angle come from the 1994 TV series?

Yes it did. The Black suit made Spider-Man more aggressive to the point where he contemplated killing Rhino and shocker. But he didn't go through with either naturally.

They also pursued the aggression storyline in SM3.

Peter didn't really come over more aggressive but Brock and Kassidy did.

I believe that the idea of aggression being amplified comes from Eddie Brock, Brock upon getting the suit was obviously changed radically... can't deny that... but I would say upon getting the symbiote it made him more of a bad person than he already was. My theory is that the symbiote sort of amplifies what is already there, that appears to be the case anyway.

I think the thing that really solidifies the symbiotes as being bad dudes, was Ben during his stint as Spider-Carnage. If you recall he had to really fight against the symbiote to stop himself really hurting people. Now arguably you could say that it was all Kassidy's influence, which carried over to Ben in the symbiote... but then when you consider how much worse Kassidy got when he bonded with the symbiote....

Certainly there is evidence to suggest that symbiotes while not evil, do have an effect on their host, in increasing what is already there.

Certainly again, citing Toxin as an example, the Cop, Frank I think his name was... had to increasingly reign in Toxin, because Toxin's own aggressive urges were becoming prominent.

Having said that, I believe that the symbiote learns from its host. So while not inherently evil on their, own, good and evil are things they can learn, and thus amplify in the host.





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GammaSpidey





The machine in Secet Wars was actually a containment unit/prison cell for the symbiote. Spider-Man went into the room and used the wrong device to create a costume; possibly due to mental influence by the symbiote.



> Was it ever explained what the symbiote was doing in the machine Spidey was using to repair his suit in the original Secret Wars? Did it specifically choose him or was just just at the wrong place at the wrong time?



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Pengi




> I believe that the idea of aggression being amplified comes from Eddie Brock, Brock upon getting the suit was obviously changed radically... can't deny that... but I would say upon getting the symbiote it made him more of a bad person than he already was. My theory is that the symbiote sort of amplifies what is already there, that appears to be the case anyway.

We didn't even get to see Eddie before he was Venom, but from his back story he clearly had a screw loose. Again, in the podcast David Michelinie said that Brock was a psychopath.

> I think the thing that really solidifies the symbiotes as being bad dudes, was Ben during his stint as Spider-Carnage. If you recall he had to really fight against the symbiote to stop himself really hurting people. Now arguably you could say that it was all Kassidy's influence, which carried over to Ben in the symbiote... but then when you consider how much worse Kassidy got when he bonded with the symbiote....

Cletus was already a monster. He just got really ill when the symbiote left him for Ben.

> Certainly there is evidence to suggest that symbiotes while not evil, do have an effect on their host, in increasing what is already there.
>
> Certainly again, citing Toxin as an example, the Cop, Frank I think his name was... had to increasingly reign in Toxin, because Toxin's own aggressive urges were becoming prominent.

Right, but this is all years after the fact. What was the first comic book to actually portray the symbiotes as evil/aggressive? Where did it come from? It certainly wasn't in the original black costume, Venom or Carnage stories. Even the Life Foundation symbiotes in the Venom: Lethal Protector mini-series didn't make their hosts evil as far as I can recall (though I'm sure they went down that road later).


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Spider-Hulk




> We didn't even get to see Eddie before he was Venom, but from his back story he clearly had a screw loose. Again, in the podcast David Michelinie said that Brock was a psychopath.

Brock sadly was never playing with a full deck, and I am convinced that him bonding with the symbiote just made him worse. If only for providing him with the opportunity to be worse, basically, the symbiote was just as keen to see Spider-Man destroyed as Brock was... So it was not all Brock's fault.

> Cletus was already a monster. He just got really ill when the symbiote left him for Ben.

Again, yes Cletus was a despicable person, who after bonding with a symbiote, got a lot worse. That is my point entirely, both Brock and Kassidy got a lot worse from bonding with a symbiote.

> Right, but this is all years after the fact. What was the first comic book to actually portray the symbiotes as evil/aggressive? Where did it come from? It certainly wasn't in the original black costume, Venom or Carnage stories. Even the Life Foundation symbiotes in the Venom: Lethal Protector mini-series didn't make their hosts evil as far as I can recall (though I'm sure they went down that road later).

I would say the first instance of the comics portraying symbiotes as aggressive hostile entities would have to be Ben as Spider-Carnage... The symbiote was driving Ben to do things and think things he wouldn't normally. But he was able to control it through sheer strength of character.

Also things happening years after the fact does not make it any less valid in the evolution of things. E.g. Doc Samson being Jewish. It was never stated when he first arrived in The Incredible Hulk he was Jewish till just before the Merged Hulk first showed up in #377.

I definately see where you are coming from though and you have good points of argument! There is no clear indication where somebody says "symbiotes are bad."

However, I disagree about the original black costume, the fact that it was cast out and shunned by its own kind for having a different way of doing things shows that symbiotes are not the most how shall you say... accepting of creatures ever. I think it depends on the host entirely how the symbiote behaves.

Frank taught Toxin to be good, and so Toxin learned to not be aggressive and to understand limits to how far they can go. The Black suit learned goodness and virtue from Spider-Man and in some warped way carried them to Brock.

Symbiotes take on characteristics of their host and I feel certainly from what I've seen of them over the years that they essentially just bring out bigger what is already there inside their host. So while Spider-Man never really turned aggressive because of the symbiote, had he been going through a rough patch, maybe he would have become more aggressive... pure speculation though! I do feel that certainly over the years symbiotes have been shown to enlarge the characteristics of their host.



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Michael





> We didn't even get to see Eddie before he was Venom, but from his back story he clearly had a screw loose. Again, in the podcast David Michelinie said that Brock was a psychopath.
>
Yeah. "You beat up a serial killer who was trying to kill your ex-girlfriend and turned him over to the police. Therefore, it's your fault my life was ruined." Brock was blaming Peter for his own incompetence, even before he bonded with the symbiote, like Doom's thinking that Reed destroyed his face.
> > I think the thing that really solidifies the symbiotes as being bad dudes, was Ben during his stint as Spider-Carnage. If you recall he had to really fight against the symbiote to stop himself really hurting people. Now arguably you could say that it was all Kassidy's influence, which carried over to Ben in the symbiote... but then when you consider how much worse Kassidy got when he bonded with the symbiote....
>
> Cletus was already a monster. He just got really ill when the symbiote left him for Ben.
>
> > Certainly there is evidence to suggest that symbiotes while not evil, do have an effect on their host, in increasing what is already there.
> >
> > Certainly again, citing Toxin as an example, the Cop, Frank I think his name was... had to increasingly reign in Toxin, because Toxin's own aggressive urges were becoming prominent.
>
> Right, but this is all years after the fact. What was the first comic book to actually portray the symbiotes as evil/aggressive? Where did it come from? It certainly wasn't in the original black costume, Venom or Carnage stories. Even the Life Foundation symbiotes in the Venom: Lethal Protector mini-series didn't make their hosts evil as far as I can recall (though I'm sure they went down that road later).
I think that we need to distinguish between the symbiotes being "evil" and the symbiotes making their hosts more aggressive. In the original black costume storyline, the symbiote was the moral equivalent of a rapist. However, the idea that the symbiotes make their hosts more aggresive didn't come up until the Spider-Carnage story. I think that part of the problem was that writers remembered that in the original black costume story the symbiote needed adrenaline and equated adrenaline with evil/aggresion.
Michael


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Pengi




> However, the idea that the symbiotes make their hosts more aggresive didn't come up until the Spider-Carnage story.

Planet of the Symbiotes pre-dated Spider-Carnage. The Carnage symbiote being pure evil actually makes sense because it's known nothing but Cletus' Kasady's twisted mind since birth.

So I guess the aggression/evil thing did happen in the TV show first after all?


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DPFW




> Yes it did. The Black suit made Spider-Man more aggressive to the point where he contemplated killing Rhino and shocker. But he didn't go through with either naturally.
>

You're thinking of the animated cartoon. It was never established in the comic that the symbiote made him aggressive- in fact, it made him more tired because it was using his body at night while he was sleeping.



-DPFW


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Spider-Hulk




> > Yes it did. The Black suit made Spider-Man more aggressive to the point where he contemplated killing Rhino and shocker. But he didn't go through with either naturally.
> >
>
> You're thinking of the animated cartoon. It was never established in the comic that the symbiote made him aggressive- in fact, it made him more tired because it was using his body at night while he was sleeping.
>
>
>
> -DPFW

I know. I said so in one of the previous posts. ;\-\)


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Spider-Hulk




> > However, the idea that the symbiotes make their hosts more aggresive didn't come up until the Spider-Carnage story.
>
> Planet of the Symbiotes pre-dated Spider-Carnage. The Carnage symbiote being pure evil actually makes sense because it's known nothing but Cletus' Kasady's twisted mind since birth.
>
> So I guess the aggression/evil thing did happen in the TV show first after all?

That was what I said before, that the possibility of the carnage symbiote being evil was due to being bonded to Kassidy, and that badness transferred over to Ben.

Spider-Man in the cartoon wasn't evil, he just gradually became more ruthless and aggressive. Till he realised he was losing control and then tried to wrestle the symbiote off. To be honest, the 90's cartoon I thought over all was crap... Spider-Man was a wimp in it. Aunt May could have done a better job as a superhero than he did.

Again the one thing I would strongly define in this discussion is that Symbiotes amplify characteristics of their hosts.

Also if they feed on adrenaline, one of the best ways to get it, is through anger. So while Spider-Man originally didn't become aggressive and mean like he did in the cartoon and in SM3... since the original story there has been a lot of inferrence that symbiotes can potentially have negative effects on their hosts.


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DPFW




> I know. I said so in one of the previous posts. ;\-\)


I must've missed it. Sorry.


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Pengi




> since the original story there has been a lot of inferrence that symbiotes can potentially have negative effects on their hosts.

Where? Peter only felt tired because the symbiote was borrowing his body at night.


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Spider-Hulk




> Where? Peter only felt tired because the symbiote was borrowing his body at night.

Well there is the case of Spider-Carnage, probably the most prominent. Arguably that was due to the symbiote being bonded to Cletus for as long as it was though, fair point. So lets forget him for a moment.

Then you have the case of the black suit as you say using his body when he was sleeping, not a good thing. Clearly the suit was using him for what it needed in doing so. (This also featured in the cartoon Spectacular Spider-Man, the suit wearing him which I found interesting.)

Also there is the effect it had on Brock making him even more nuts than he already was. And also, as I said in previous posts, it takes two to tango... the symbiote was just as keen to destroy Spider-Man as Brock was or else it wouldn't have shared all Spidey's secrets with Brock.

Also the fact that rather than take over its host totally the black suit decided it would just bond, a clear indicator of other symbiotes general hostility to its host organisms, and gives an incling as to symbiotes viewing hosts as lesser life forms there to be used.

Then if you factor in events in the Toxin mini-series, which admitedly I am a bit fuzzy on, that pretty much showed that symbiotes can learn goodness but more or less are bad dudes if left to their own devices. Frank the cop taught Toxin to be a force for good. But even during Toxin's learning, I remember he challenged Frank as to why he couldn't go any further... as in, kill the enemy.

Oh yes... nearly forgot, Spider-Venom in Spider-Girl. Not a very nice guy. Alternate reality I know, but... even so.

Then you have other sources which show symbiotes as aggressive and or dangerous creatures.

The big one being Spider-Man 3.

Then you have the various Spider-Man cartoons. Starting with the 90's cartoon, and lately Spectacular Spider-Man

There is also videogames to consider, Spider-Man on the PS1 and shortly Spider-Man: Web Of Shadows. Both of these games have symbiotes as the main enemy and threat to the city.

True those examples are not the comics... but they are marvel licenced and therefore would have their plots get the ok first.

Just generally when I sit and consider all these factors, it pretty much means that I personally feel that symbiotes can, and usually are, dangerous creatures. Even though the black suit didn't make Spidey blow his stacks like in the cartoon and SM3... when it left him and bonded to Brock, you could argue we saw its true colours then when it wanted to destroy Peter.

Of course, these are just my own musings on the subject of symbiotes and reading between the lines... so to speak.


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Pengi




You keep on bringing up story points that came up after the 1994 animated series aired. That isn't what I was discussing. I wanted to know if the symbiotes were shown as aggressive/evil before then.


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Spider-Hulk




> You keep on bringing up story points that came up after the 1994 animated series aired. That isn't what I was discussing. I wanted to know if the symbiotes were shown as aggressive/evil before then.

Ah well whoops, sorry,... I'm not sure of the exact answer to that question in all truth! Did Spider-Carnage come before Peter donned the black suit in the 90's cartoon? Not sure...

Also I've dug out and re-read the Venom and Carnage later Toxin mini-series. And the guys name is Pat!! I think Ive been getting his name wrong. whoops again... *Spider-Hulk goes to give himself 10 lashes!*




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Pengi




> > You keep on bringing up story points that came up after the 1994 animated series aired. That isn't what I was discussing. I wanted to know if the symbiotes were shown as aggressive/evil before then.
>
> Ah well whoops, sorry,... I'm not sure of the exact answer to that question in all truth! Did Spider-Carnage come before Peter donned the black suit in the 90's cartoon? Not sure...

Spider-Carnage was after.


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