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c-mccormack




I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?


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Sam




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

This months issue of Comic Buyers Guide (CBG) has a reprint from an old "Who Killed Gwen Stacy" article from many years back. I'm posting the link to the pdf file, it's a great read (or reread for those of us who have been reading CBG for many years)

Hope that helps your question...at least a little \:\)

link:
http://www.cbgxtra.com/Portals/1/BG_Images/Online%20PDFs/1647GWEN.pdf

Keep On Thwipin'!!!
Sam


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Wraith




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?


Weeell, in terms of proximate cause of Gwen's death, I'm gonna say that my own sense is that Spidey inadvertently snapped her neck when he caught her with his web line. Of course, there have been many different tellings of that event, and as it's fiction there's no "real" truth to get to.

Thinking about it, though, it does seem like there should have been an autopsy, which would have at least pointed to one cause vs. another... has this ever been brought up?

Ultimately, of course, The Green Goblin pushed Gwen off the top of a bridge; it was GG who sent her to her death... even if Spider-Man's attempted rescue ended up killing Gwen several seconds earlier, it's still not really accurate to blame Spidey for Gwen's demise.

*Wraith


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Common-Sense, Tingling!




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?



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Captain Speedbump




> > I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?
>
>
> Weeell, in terms of proximate cause of Gwen's death, I'm gonna say that my own sense is that Spidey inadvertently snapped her neck when he caught her with his web line. Of course, there have been many different tellings of that event, and as it's fiction there's no "real" truth to get to.
>
> Thinking about it, though, it does seem like there should have been an autopsy, which would have at least pointed to one cause vs. another... has this ever been brought up?
>
> Ultimately, of course, The Green Goblin pushed Gwen off the top of a bridge; it was GG who sent her to her death... even if Spider-Man's attempted rescue ended up killing Gwen several seconds earlier, it's still not really accurate to blame Spidey for Gwen's demise.
>
> *Wraith

I absolutely agree with Wraith on this... the Green Goblin put Spider-Man in a no-win situation. Spidey couldn't physically reach Gwen in time to catch her, and if he didn't try to save her with webbing, she would have hit the water and died. In all honesty, the whole "falling vs. webbing" debate is irrelevant to me, because the actions of the Green Goblin would have resulted in Gwen's death no matter what. Even if an autopsy revealed a broken neck killed Gwen, anyone who knows the whole story wouldn't blame Spidey in the slightest.

Capt. Speedbump





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Benjamin Reilly





> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

Well, I guess it's like someone giving first aid. If you don't do anything, the other person who needs help dies. So you have to try. But when trying so many things can go wrong. That doesn't mean that you killed that person.

It's the same here. If Peter did nothing, Gwen would have died because of the impact. Peter tried to save her and it went wrong. So the ultimate reason for her death was the Green Goblin pushing her off the bridge.

So Norman killed her.



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Comp 

Moderator

Location: Owings Mills, MD
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,976



> I absolutely agree with Wraith on this... the Green Goblin put Spider-Man in a no-win situation. Spidey couldn't physically reach Gwen in time to catch her, and if he didn't try to save her with webbing, she would have hit the water and died. In all honesty, the whole "falling vs. webbing" debate is irrelevant to me, because the actions of the Green Goblin would have resulted in Gwen's death no matter what. Even if an autopsy revealed a broken neck killed Gwen, anyone who knows the whole story wouldn't blame Spidey in the slightest.
>

Except for Spider-Man himself. And that's why it is relevant, in the comics at least, because even if it's absolutely true that the Green Goblin is wholly responsible--and I agree that it is--Peter Parker will always suspect his webbing snapped her neck, and always wonder if he could have saved her if he'd acted differently, and that will always be with him.

-Comp





My first novel, The Listeners, is in bookstores now! Check it out at www.harrisondemchick.com!
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Spider-Hulk




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

This really is my own thoughts on the Death of Gwen. Firstly, knowing that the Green Goblin was as psychotic as he was... but at the same time a master planner and a genius... I seriously doubt somebody like Norman Osborn would take any chances.

His goal was to hurt Peter, to make him suffer... and to feel like his world was caving in round him. What better way to do that than to kill the woman who he idolised?

Now the most accepted theory is that Spider-Man snagging her with his web after GG threw her off the bridge, caused her to break her neck and she died. Unlike the Hulk, there is no way a mere mortal can come back from that.

I've not seen the issue where Gwen is thrown off the bridge for a while now... so I may be wrong.
My point... I believe Gwen Stacy was already dead before he even chucked her off the bridge. So if in the event Spider-Man could mount a life saving effort, it would all be for nought... Reason I think this, throught the fall and the events, Gwen was mysteriously quiet... No scream when the GG chucked her over the side of the bridge?

As it stands, it turned out better than the GG could ever have hoped for! Peter snagged her with a web, but she was dead when he hauled her up, so he is left wondering if his effort to save her killed her.

In reality, Norman is Gwen's killer. No question about it. Had she hit the water she would have been dead, even though it was water, the speed she would have fell, she wouldn't have stood a chance. Spider-Man did the only thing he could do at the time to try and save her. So Goblin is the killer, no doubt.

As I say... I suspect she was already dead before Spidey even caught her.


But if you want to put it in real world context. Lets say you see a guy deliberately shove another guy off a cliff then run away. You run over and see the other guy hanging on to a branch. You reach down, try to pull the guy up, but he slips and falls to his death. Are you the guy's killer? Or was it the one who did the shoving?


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Michael




> > I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?
>
> This really is my own thoughts on the Death of Gwen. Firstly, knowing that the Green Goblin was as psychotic as he was... but at the same time a master planner and a genius... I seriously doubt somebody like Norman Osborn would take any chances.
>
> His goal was to hurt Peter, to make him suffer... and to feel like his world was caving in round him. What better way to do that than to kill the woman who he idolised?
>
> Now the most accepted theory is that Spider-Man snagging her with his web after GG threw her off the bridge, caused her to break her neck and she died. Unlike the Hulk, there is no way a mere mortal can come back from that.
>
> I've not seen the issue where Gwen is thrown off the bridge for a while now... so I may be wrong.
> My point... I believe Gwen Stacy was already dead before he even chucked her off the bridge. So if in the event Spider-Man could mount a life saving effort, it would all be for nought... Reason I think this, throught the fall and the events, Gwen was mysteriously quiet... No scream when the GG chucked her over the side of the bridge?
>
> As it stands, it turned out better than the GG could ever have hoped for! Peter snagged her with a web, but she was dead when he hauled her up, so he is left wondering if his effort to save her killed her.
>
> In reality, Norman is Gwen's killer. No question about it. Had she hit the water she would have been dead, even though it was water, the speed she would have fell, she wouldn't have stood a chance. Spider-Man did the only thing he could do at the time to try and save her. So Goblin is the killer, no doubt.
>
> As I say... I suspect she was already dead before Spidey even caught her.
>
>
> But if you want to put it in real world context. Lets say you see a guy deliberately shove another guy off a cliff then run away. You run over and see the other guy hanging on to a branch. You reach down, try to pull the guy up, but he slips and falls to his death. Are you the guy's killer? Or was it the one who did the shoving?
There was a lot of debate about this. In ASM 500 and 512, Gwen seems conscious, while in every other flashback she was unconscious. Some people argued that Peter changed history during his trip through time in ASM 500. If she was conscious, she could have died of a heart attack.
In any case, it's possible that Gwen died from the collision with Norman's glider. It would depend on several factors- how fast Norman was going, the angle at which he hit into her, any pre-existing medical conditions,etc.
Michael


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DeathBug




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

If Spider-Man hadn't tried to intervene, then Gwen still would have died on impact; water has approximately the same surface tension as solid ground. The impact would have most likely snapped her neck, regardless.


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GammaSpidey





I mean, I know that Gerry Conway added the 'SNAP' sound effect "Subconsciously" (his words), but consciously he liked to believe that Gwen was either already dead before she got tossed, or the shock of the fall killed her before Spidey webbed her.

I mean, no official autopsy was ever discussed in the comics, right? I think it was the intention to leave it fairly ambiguous, so we could have these debates 35 years after the fact, LOL.

Also, nothing in comics surprises me anymore, so I could see her coming back someday. Maybe she's in a wheelchair, maybe they retcon it as being one of the Jackal's clones htat got killed. It's easy to bring her back, if they want to.



> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?



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Michael




>
> I mean, I know that Gerry Conway added the 'SNAP' sound effect "Subconsciously" (his words), but consciously he liked to believe that Gwen was either already dead before she got tossed, or the shock of the fall killed her before Spidey webbed her.
>
But you CAN'T die from the "shock of the fall". Gwen could have died from the collision with the glider, or a heart attack if she woke up, but not "the shock of the fall".
Michael


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GammaSpidey





Look, I'm not making this up... these are the creator's words, Conway, Lee, etc. THis has always been one of their defenses on this story. So don't ever attack or belittle me for that, ok?


> >
> > I mean, I know that Gerry Conway added the 'SNAP' sound effect "Subconsciously" (his words), but consciously he liked to believe that Gwen was either already dead before she got tossed, or the shock of the fall killed her before Spidey webbed her.
> >
> But you CAN'T die from the "shock of the fall". Gwen could have died from the collision with the glider, or a heart attack if she woke up, but not "the shock of the fall".
> Michael




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Spider-Hulk




> > > I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?
> >
> > This really is my own thoughts on the Death of Gwen. Firstly, knowing that the Green Goblin was as psychotic as he was... but at the same time a master planner and a genius... I seriously doubt somebody like Norman Osborn would take any chances.
> >
> > His goal was to hurt Peter, to make him suffer... and to feel like his world was caving in round him. What better way to do that than to kill the woman who he idolised?
> >
> > Now the most accepted theory is that Spider-Man snagging her with his web after GG threw her off the bridge, caused her to break her neck and she died. Unlike the Hulk, there is no way a mere mortal can come back from that.
> >
> > I've not seen the issue where Gwen is thrown off the bridge for a while now... so I may be wrong.
> > My point... I believe Gwen Stacy was already dead before he even chucked her off the bridge. So if in the event Spider-Man could mount a life saving effort, it would all be for nought... Reason I think this, throught the fall and the events, Gwen was mysteriously quiet... No scream when the GG chucked her over the side of the bridge?
> >
> > As it stands, it turned out better than the GG could ever have hoped for! Peter snagged her with a web, but she was dead when he hauled her up, so he is left wondering if his effort to save her killed her.
> >
> > In reality, Norman is Gwen's killer. No question about it. Had she hit the water she would have been dead, even though it was water, the speed she would have fell, she wouldn't have stood a chance. Spider-Man did the only thing he could do at the time to try and save her. So Goblin is the killer, no doubt.
> >
> > As I say... I suspect she was already dead before Spidey even caught her.
> >
> >
> > But if you want to put it in real world context. Lets say you see a guy deliberately shove another guy off a cliff then run away. You run over and see the other guy hanging on to a branch. You reach down, try to pull the guy up, but he slips and falls to his death. Are you the guy's killer? Or was it the one who did the shoving?
> There was a lot of debate about this. In ASM 500 and 512, Gwen seems conscious, while in every other flashback she was unconscious. Some people argued that Peter changed history during his trip through time in ASM 500. If she was conscious, she could have died of a heart attack.
> In any case, it's possible that Gwen died from the collision with Norman's glider. It would depend on several factors- how fast Norman was going, the angle at which he hit into her, any pre-existing medical conditions,etc.
> Michael

Well, put it this way... a collision with a Glider was enough to kill Ben Reilly! So if it could kill him, killing a normal human like Gwen should be as easy as anything.

People get killed by being hit by cars at slower speed, granted, they are larger and heavier... but one single concentrated thud from the Goblin's glider and well... she'd be toast with that!

Unconscious or dead. ;\-\)


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Spider-Hulk




>
> I mean, I know that Gerry Conway added the 'SNAP' sound effect "Subconsciously" (his words), but consciously he liked to believe that Gwen was either already dead before she got tossed, or the shock of the fall killed her before Spidey webbed her.
>
> I mean, no official autopsy was ever discussed in the comics, right? I think it was the intention to leave it fairly ambiguous, so we could have these debates 35 years after the fact, LOL.
>
> Also, nothing in comics surprises me anymore, so I could see her coming back someday. Maybe she's in a wheelchair, maybe they retcon it as being one of the Jackal's clones htat got killed. It's easy to bring her back, if they want to.
>
>
>
> > I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?
>


Something tells me that Gwen Stacy is going to stay dead... UNLESS... BND has affected Gwen's death... maybe it didn't happen after all, I mean Harry is now alive and well... especially as Osborn doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man anymore.

I always believed Gwen to be Peter's "true love!"


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Michael




>
> Look, I'm not making this up... these are the creator's words, Conway, Lee, etc. THis has always been one of their defenses on this story. So don't ever attack or belittle me for that, ok?
>
>
I'm sorry if you took it personally. I knew that they were Conway's words. I should have made it more clear that I was attacking Conway, not you.
Michael


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Blargh




> >
> > I mean, I know that Gerry Conway added the 'SNAP' sound effect "Subconsciously" (his words), but consciously he liked to believe that Gwen was either already dead before she got tossed, or the shock of the fall killed her before Spidey webbed her.
> >
> But you CAN'T die from the "shock of the fall". Gwen could have died from the collision with the glider, or a heart attack if she woke up, but not "the shock of the fall".
> Michael


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takotsubo_cardiomyopathy

Due to the issues surrounding Gwen at the time (death of her father, moving to Europe) and the retcon (Sins Past), she could've suffered from Broken Heart Syndrome, which culminated when falling.


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dave




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

If he hadn't tried to catch her she would have died anyway.


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Hatman




> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

Even if Gwen's neck did snap from the webbing, she never would have been put in the situation if the Goblin hadn't of thrown her off that bridge. Peter may have failed to save her life, but he certainly didn't kill her.

~Hat~


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emerick-man

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 69,566


> I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?

STRONGLY implied confirmation inTHUNDERBOLTS #120...




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Wraith




> > But you CAN'T die from the "shock of the fall". Gwen could have died from the collision with the glider, or a heart attack if she woke up, but not "the shock of the fall".
> > Michael
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takotsubo_cardiomyopathy
>
> Due to the issues surrounding Gwen at the time (death of her father, moving to Europe) and the retcon (Sins Past), she could've suffered from Broken Heart Syndrome, which culminated when falling.


My thought has also, generally, been that "died from the shock of the fall" was pretty unlikely. (And, even if theoretically possible, still quite a strain in the Marvel Universe where people are saved from 70-story falls all the time.)

But your input on this point is really good and thoughtful. Just wanted to say nice work.

*Wraith



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c-mccormack




> > I was having a conversation with my sister, a non-comic reader, and we got on this topic. She asked who killed Gwen and I couldn't give a good answer. I'm not asking about legal culpability, but do you think Spider-Man killed Gwen when he snagged her with his web, or had the Green Goblin already killed her?
>
> If he hadn't tried to catch her she would have died anyway.

Of course I knowa that, and I know that whatever happened, Norman is guilty of her murder. I guess what I was asking is how others view this. Was Gwen already dead (or incapable of being saved) or could Spider-Man have saved her if he acted differently? For my money, I guess I always viewed it as that Gwen could have been saved, but in the split second he had to choose, Peter chose the wrong method of trying. Call it inexperience or just bad luck, but I guess I felt it added an extra layer of tragedy that she could have been saved. I also felt this was bolstered by the few time the incident recurred in which Peter acted differently and saved the person. I can't remmberer them all, but I know there was one in the first few appearances of the Scarlet Spider and I feel like there were others.


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Jaycee

It was really Gerry Conway.



Gerry Coway was soley responsable for her death. He wanted her dead. And to this day, boast about how he was the one.


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