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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,275


I'm just wondering if people prefer the original revelation or the Kingsley one. I recently bought and reread Amazing #289 (When Ned was revealed at that time to be The Hobgoblin.), and I kind of liked the issue. Macendale was the Hobgoblin that I read about until his death, so he was kind of "My" Hobgoblin. Looking back though, he wasn't all that great in the role. I definitely prefer the original Hobgoblin. From what I understand, a lot of people didn't really like Ned as the Hobgoblin (Including editorial.). I still think that it's a pretty good issue, but one thing that bothers me is that it said that Ned became the Hobgoblin to TAKE down criminals (Such as the Kingpin.), but then went kind of crazy. BUT, in the original issues, he was pretty cold and murderous from the beginning. When he kills his informant and then kidnaps and kills Lefty Donovan. I'm not sure how that can fit, so I think that Kingsley works better. We don't really know anything about Kingsley though, so, who knows? Anyhow, what do you guys think?


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Rodimus


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,409



    Quote:
    I'm just wondering if people prefer the original revelation or the Kingsley one. I recently bought and reread Amazing #289 (When Ned was revealed at that time to be The Hobgoblin.), and I kind of liked the issue. Macendale was the Hobgoblin that I read about until his death, so he was kind of "My" Hobgoblin. Looking back though, he wasn't all that great in the role. I definitely prefer the original Hobgoblin. From what I understand, a lot of people didn't really like Ned as the Hobgoblin (Including editorial.). I still think that it's a pretty good issue, but one thing that bothers me is that it said that Ned became the Hobgoblin to TAKE down criminals (Such as the Kingpin.), but then went kind of crazy. BUT, in the original issues, he was pretty cold and murderous from the beginning. When he kills his informant and then kidnaps and kills Lefty Donovan. I'm not sure how that can fit, so I think that Kingsley works better. We don't really know anything about Kingsley though, so, who knows? Anyhow, what do you guys think?


Not sure, as I didn't read a whole lot of Spidey comics back then, but I have a question: Did Roderick Kingsley appear in the Spidey comics back during the time that the original Hobgoblin was out there in the comics? If so, what did he do? And it was just the 80's, right?




- Rodimus




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,751


Ned Leeds was a real cop-out. Roderick Kingsley, who Roger Stern has said was his original intended character, is a great character. Fascinating personality, and genuine cold blooded-bad-ass.


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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


Kingsley did appear in the comics during the storyline of the Hobgoblin.

Sometimes I think at the same time Hobgoblin was elsewhere such as meeting with the Rose. But Kingsley did have a twin brother and had already used a doppelganger to recreate and test the goblin serum so that he could perfect it.

I never accepted that Leeds was the actual Hobgoblin, Hobby gained strength equal to Spiderman from the goblin serum and was more then willing to kill. Even caught by surprise as he was, if Leeds really was the Hobgoblin he would have torn those normal human assassins to shreds.


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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


Yep, it is a shame that Stern left the book before outing Hobgoblin and that editorial disagreed with/didn't like the idea of Kingsley hence the killing of Ned Leeds in a Hobgoblin suit just so they could make a different Hobgoblin and wreck the character.

I was SO glad when Stern returned and gave us the Hobgoblin lives mini-series and corrected that huge mistake.


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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


Kingsley by far, Ned's death makes no sense. Hobby had strength to match Spiderman and was more then willing to kill. One punch from him would pulverize any one of the assassins that attacked him, and muscle augmentation from super strength has been shown to save the person from strangulation. (ref: waaay back when Walker took over as Captain America, his partner Bucky/Battlestar was strung up to be hung but his super strength saved him from strangulation)

Kingsley had already used a decoy to recreate and test the goblin serum and he gathered test data from the decoy's fight with Spidey to perfect the serum, so Ned being another decoy makes more sense then Ned being the actual Hobgoblin.


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Rodimus


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,409



    Quote:
    Kingsley did appear in the comics during the storyline of the Hobgoblin.



    Quote:
    Sometimes I think at the same time Hobgoblin was elsewhere such as meeting with the Rose. But Kingsley did have a twin brother and had already used a doppelganger to recreate and test the goblin serum so that he could perfect it.


You just mean how his twin brother posed as him while he acted as Hobgoblin back in the day, as shown in Hobgoblin Lives LS?


    Quote:
    I never accepted that Leeds was the actual Hobgoblin, Hobby gained strength equal to Spiderman from the goblin serum and was more then willing to kill. Even caught by surprise as he was, if Leeds really was the Hobgoblin he would have torn those normal human assassins to shreds.


Ned Leeds would really have done something like that, or do you mean while under Kingsley's control?




- Rodimus




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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


Yes Kingsley's brother did aid in the deception back in the day, I need to go back and reread those classic tales, so much better then the grist Marvel grinds out now.


If memory serves, per the Hobgoblin Lives mini, Kingsley wanted to retire as Hobgoblin and knew assassins were hired to kill him and set up Leeds to take the fall. Leeds wasn't juiced with the goblin serum he was just brain twisted and confused.

Macendale's constant failures as the new Hobgoblin prompted Kingsley's ego to seek him out and make Macendale pay.


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D. Strange


Member Since: Tue Sep 19, 2017
Posts: 272


I have decided to finish my Spider-Man run (up to OMD) by my next birthday in March. AS such, I have bought and re-bought comics from many different eras. Including the original Hobgoblin era.

It was a real look at how such a story should unfold. You could feel the Hobgoblin in issues he never was.

Most importantly, there were a few different possible goblins. And yes, Leeds and Kingsley were set up as possible Hobgoblins.

I think Leeds wasn't jarring, especially since Kingsley disappeared from the books towards the end.

Leeds needed to be up to something. He kept disappearing for something. At the time it made sense. In some ways he worked better.

Then came Hobgoblin Lives. The twin thing was a bit hokey, but over all, I think it worked out.

So a draw... until Slott.

Two things I need to say first:

1. I like classic Hobgoblin more than Norman Osborn (and Harry more than his dad, for that matter)

2. I stopped reading Spider-man (minus returning writers I loved and alt. realities) until the 50th anniversary, and stayed until the end of Superior. Fortunately, this included a lot of Kingsley.

I did hear about what Hobgoblin was doing however, and gave a quick read through in someone's collection.

Slott writes Hobgoblin... wrong. His kingsley seemed almost like an 80s cartoon character. A cheap hood with a gimmick, then another gimmick, who just loved to fake his own death. His ego got in the way.

The Hobgoblin from back in the day, was cold and calculating. The whole point was that his ego wasn't involved, it was all business.

He was Kingpin, with powers, tech, ambition, and a cold detachment Fisk had lost under Miller (not complaining). Yes, I would say that fit Kingsley better.

In MY collection, and MY continuity... which ends just before the marriage does... I would say it doesn't matter. Leeds COULD have worked, in some way fit the part better since Kingsley was less memorable. Kingsley was a more logical choice.

I'd shrug. But post Slott, getting his hand on him? Leeds all day.




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,751


See pics


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Ned Leeds Jr. 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat Aug 17, 1996
Posts: 1,325


While Stern has stated that Kingsley was always intended to be the Hobgoblin and that Marvel shoehorned Ned in, after the fact. I found that Hobgoblin Lives, despite solid writing and beautiful artwork, was a huge disappointment. Whether it was the fact that I couldn't even remember Kingsley as a supporting character or that the damage had been done with Ned having been exposed and accepted... or both, I would have been more accepting, had they left it the way that it was, or had the reveal been someone else. Kingsley was a huge disappointment for me.

Ned




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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


The main thing was that it took way too long to correct the damage of Ned Leeds being shoehorned in.

The saga of the Hobgoblin should stand as an example to all writers that if you are going to make a new mystery villain to have the plan to out them in place, candidate to be the villain chosen, and to make sure that if you leave the story before hand that things will still happen the way you designed it.


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Ned Leeds Jr. 

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Member Since: Sat Aug 17, 1996
Posts: 1,325


100%. Stern would have been better served figuring out a more prominent replacement, in order to make the story more compelling to readers. While, Ned was not a fit for the clues left and had a lame end, I had zero emotional investment or intrigue about Kingsley.






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,537




    Quote:
    While Stern has stated that Kingsley was always intended to be the Hobgoblin and that Marvel shoehorned Ned in, after the fact. I found that Hobgoblin Lives, despite solid writing and beautiful artwork, was a huge disappointment. Whether it was the fact that I couldn't even remember Kingsley as a supporting character or that the damage had been done with Ned having been exposed and accepted... or both, I would have been more accepting, had they left it the way that it was, or had the reveal been someone else. Kingsley was a huge disappointment for me.


I think that was the problem. Kingsley hadn't been built up enough as a character to make that revelation land with any punch at the time of the original mystery. You can have a murder mystery but if no one remembers the character who turns out to be the killer then it's a waste. But the revelation of Ned didn't make sense with the facts presented.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,537




    Quote:
    100%. Stern would have been better served figuring out a more prominent replacement, in order to make the story more compelling to readers. While, Ned was not a fit for the clues left and had a lame end, I had zero emotional investment or intrigue about Kingsley.


I've always wondered why it was such a big mystery once we knew he had that twin brother. That explains away any incidents where Roderick could potentially have an alibi.

Reverend Meteor (I guess watching soap operas has inured me to expecting this sort of twist)



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,032



    Quote:
    I'm just wondering if people prefer the original revelation or the Kingsley one. I recently bought and reread Amazing #289 (When Ned was revealed at that time to be The Hobgoblin.), and I kind of liked the issue. Macendale was the Hobgoblin that I read about until his death, so he was kind of "My" Hobgoblin. Looking back though, he wasn't all that great in the role. I definitely prefer the original Hobgoblin. From what I understand, a lot of people didn't really like Ned as the Hobgoblin (Including editorial.). I still think that it's a pretty good issue, but one thing that bothers me is that it said that Ned became the Hobgoblin to TAKE down criminals (Such as the Kingpin.), but then went kind of crazy. BUT, in the original issues, he was pretty cold and murderous from the beginning. When he kills his informant and then kidnaps and kills Lefty Donovan. I'm not sure how that can fit, so I think that Kingsley works better. We don't really know anything about Kingsley though, so, who knows? Anyhow, what do you guys think?


The 1987 resolution was not perfect, but I felt comfortable with it as it retroactively gave some meaning and emotional payback for Ned Leeds' otherwise arbitrary and senseless death in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 (I did not know that Jim Owsley/Christopher Priest had killed Ned off in order to sabotage Tom DeFalco's plans or that DeFalco had misled Owsley into believing that Ned was going to be the Hobgoblin when he was in fact planning to reveal Richard Fisk as the man behind the goblin mask). Such weaknesses as there were could be excused (in my opinion) by the fact that Peter David had to come up with a solution at extremely short notice - something like a month for plotting, artwork, scripting and lettering IIRC - in order to honour the deadline for this double-sized issue.(1) For instance I think that had PAD been more aware of the Hobgoblin's power level, he would have equipped the Foreigner's squad with the requisite armoury etc. to take down and kill him.

There were no such hasty mistakes in "Hobgoblin Lives!", but that is not surprising or that exciting because Roger Stern had years to prepare that self-congratulatory mini-series. The resolution with Kingsley as the Hobgoblin however left me disappointed and underwhelmed. Ned Leeds was a fairly important supporting character who had been in the franchise since Ditko, Kingsley in contrast was someone I only remembered from a PPSSM story pre-Hobgoblin which left me with the impression of him being a snivelling incompetent, an impression I did not feel I had to revise in the light of his later appearances. And Kingsley had not appeared in years before Hobgoblin Lives!, even though Macendale now took over the Hobgoblin identity, which to my mind only underlined his insignificance. And the anti-climactic end of the mini-series was then compounded by the fact that shortly afterwards, when Norman Osborn returned, Kingsley was ignominously defeated and fled back to the Caribbean with his tail between his legs. To me he only became a credible villain (one who could succeed without being the author's pet character for indiscernible reasons) when Tom DeFalco started using him in the MC-2 universe. Also, since Stern's resolution involved an identical twin brother (IIRC it had only been mentioned once before 1987 that Roderick had a brother, but never that he was a twin, let alone an identical one) and hiding his real character and competence from his first appearance, I felt it involved at least a little cheating.

(1) IIRC Peter David had very little experience of writing the Hobgoblin before the job of resolving his mystery before was dumped in his lap after Owsley/Priest fired DeFalco and Shooter then fired Owsley. And apparently neither Stern, DeFalco nor Owsley/Priest had taken PAD or anyone else then still working on the Spider-books into their confidence about their intended resolutions. (DeFalco had told Ron Frenz, IIRC, but Frenz had left when DeFalco was fired).


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,807



    Quote:
    I have decided to finish my Spider-Man run (up to OMD) by my next birthday in March. AS such, I have bought and re-bought comics from many different eras. Including the original Hobgoblin era.



    Quote:
    It was a real look at how such a story should unfold. You could feel the Hobgoblin in issues he never was.



    Quote:
    Most importantly, there were a few different possible goblins. And yes, Leeds and Kingsley were set up as possible Hobgoblins.



    Quote:
    I think Leeds wasn't jarring, especially since Kingsley disappeared from the books towards the end.



    Quote:
    Leeds needed to be up to something. He kept disappearing for something. At the time it made sense. In some ways he worked better.

I liked the eventual revelation that Leeds was mind-controlled to believe he was the Hobgoblin. But his casual, off-panel execution remains a waste of a great character. I blame Priest.


    Quote:
    Then came Hobgoblin Lives. The twin thing was a bit hokey, but over all, I think it worked out.



    Quote:
    So a draw... until Slott.



    Quote:
    Two things I need to say first:



    Quote:
    1. I like classic Hobgoblin more than Norman Osborn (and Harry more than his dad, for that matter)

Thank you. It's nice to know someone else feels the same as I do. Harry was a way better Goblin, and original Hobgoblin was more formidable than either of the Osborns.


    Quote:
    2. I stopped reading Spider-man (minus returning writers I loved and alt. realities) until the 50th anniversary, and stayed until the end of Superior. Fortunately, this included a lot of Kingsley.



    Quote:
    I did hear about what Hobgoblin was doing however, and gave a quick read through in someone's collection.



    Quote:
    Slott writes Hobgoblin... wrong. His kingsley seemed almost like an 80s cartoon character. A cheap hood with a gimmick, then another gimmick, who just loved to fake his own death. His ego got in the way.



    Quote:
    The Hobgoblin from back in the day, was cold and calculating. The whole point was that his ego wasn't involved, it was all business.



    Quote:
    He was Kingpin, with powers, tech, ambition, and a cold detachment Fisk had lost under Miller (not complaining). Yes, I would say that fit Kingsley better.

Again, thank you. An effete, cold-blooded, calculating business tycoon goes third-world, guerrilla mercenary? No. Slott wrote Kingsley like he was Macendale, and it's one of his major failings, in my opinion. Also, handing out super-identities is more the Tinkerer's deal. Nothing in Kingsley's previous depictions could make me believe he would pivot this way.


    Quote:
    In MY collection, and MY continuity... which ends just before the marriage does... I would say it doesn't matter. Leeds COULD have worked, in some way fit the part better since Kingsley was less memorable. Kingsley was a more logical choice.

In MY continuity, the Hobgoblin is Richard Fisk. It would have been a much better story than either Leeds or Kingsley. Again, I blame Priest.


    Quote:
    I'd shrug. But post Slott, getting his hand on him? Leeds all day.







And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,807


I love and I hate Hobgoblin Lives. I love it because I hated the reveal that Ned was the Hobgoblin, and Hobgoblin Lives finally fixed that.

When I read ASM #289 it felt to me like the writers never had a clue who was behind the mask and didn't want to write about it anymore, so they revealed it was Ned and killed him just to make a problem go away. And many years later when PAD and DeFalco and Priest started blogging about it, my suspicions turned out to be right.

And not for nothing, but any story that makes you think of the writers takes you right out of the story. Creator ego should never shine through in their work, and it's the reason I eventually turned against people like Priest, Byrne, and (of course) Joe Queseda.

Why did I hate Hobgoblin Lives? Because Kingsley was such a disappointing choice. Almost any of the major suspects would have been better (except Flash). Donald Menken would have been a fun choice - a businessman with strong ties to the Osborn legacy. Roger Hochsburg had personal ties to Peter (although not very strong ones). The Foreigner would have been a great fit for most of the clues that we had prior to Leed's death. Even Lance Bannon would have been a fit.

One thing that never made sense to me is why Georgie would have gone to Kingsley when he discovered the Goblin's Lair in the first place. "Hey Calvin Klein, look - I discovered a super-villain's lair!" It only made sense if Kingsley and Georgie were sleeping together or something - but they never really declared Kingsley as openly gay. Also, Kingsley would not have had the scientific knowledge (or access to scientific resources) to modify the Goblin formula. That alone should have ruled out Bannon, Leeds, Thompson and Kingsley.

Of course in a perfect world, Hobgoblin would have been Richard Fisk, Kingsley would have been the Rose, and Macendale would still be Jack-o-Lantern. But Fisk was dead by the time Hobgoblin Lives came out, and had already been revealed to be the Rose.




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Ned Leeds Jr. 

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Member Since: Sat Aug 17, 1996
Posts: 1,325


Yep. I sat beside Roger Stern at a small con in Scranton, PA back in 1991 and he told me that they got it wrong and that only he knew who it was. Ever since that time, I waited for the "What If" story that he had hoped they'd let him write..... if only.




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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,032



    Quote:
    I love and I hate Hobgoblin Lives. I love it because I hated the reveal that Ned was the Hobgoblin, and Hobgoblin Lives finally fixed that.



    Quote:
    When I read ASM #289 it felt to me like the writers never had a clue who was behind the mask and didn't want to write about it anymore, so they revealed it was Ned and killed him just to make a problem go away. And many years later when PAD and DeFalco and Priest started blogging about it, my suspicions turned out to be right.


Well, it was actually worse because the infighting in the Spider-books editorial office led to the sacking of both DeFalco and Owsley/Priest, but unfortunately Marvel had already publicly announced that the Hobgoblin's ID would be revealed in the double-sized ASM #289 and Jim Shooter (who would also be fired the same year) rightly or wrongly thought he was legally bound to honour that promise, which resulted in Peter David (who to the best of my knowledge had never written the Hobgoblin before) having to come up with a solution at very short notice.


    Quote:
    And not for nothing, but any story that makes you think of the writers takes you right out of the story. Creator ego should never shine through in their work, and it's the reason I eventually turned against people like Priest, Byrne, and (of course) Joe Queseda.



    Quote:
    Why did I hate Hobgoblin Lives? Because Kingsley was such a disappointing choice. Almost any of the major suspects would have been better (except Flash). Donald Menken would have been a fun choice - a businessman with strong ties to the Osborn legacy. Roger Hochsburg had personal ties to Peter (although not very strong ones). The Foreigner would have been a great fit for most of the clues that we had prior to Leed's death. Even Lance Bannon would have been a fit.


That also bothered me - as I read it, it seemed to me that all Stern wanted to do was get in the last word without acknowledging how much things had changed since he left. That his successors as writers were not obliged to stick to his choice of the Hobgoblin's identity (as we now know, DeFalco wanted Richard Fisk, I'm not sure if Owsley/Priest ever revealed whom he had in mind, but it did not seem to be Kingsley). Or that once Ned Leeds had been revealed as the Hobgoblin one could not well undo that merely to replace him with a relative nonentity like Roderick Kingsley. While the Ned-is-Hobgoblin solution may have been flawed, it was something that one could live with (at least as long as one did not plan to revive Ned) and move on. At least as far as I was concerned the mystery of the Hobgoblin had already been dragged out for too long by 1987 (Marvel would make the same mistake with the second Clone Saga). So to me the main purpose of Hobgoblin Lives! appeared to me to be to allow Roger Stern to get in the last word, to satisfy some neatness-obsessed fans. ;\-\) This effect was compounded by Roderick Kingsley subsequently disappearing again in the wake of Norman Osborn's return.




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D. Strange


Member Since: Tue Sep 19, 2017
Posts: 272




    Quote:
    Thank you. It's nice to know someone else feels the same as I do. Harry was a way better Goblin, and original Hobgoblin was more formidable than either of the Osborns.


Agreed, Harry was a great character, and was really menacing at the end. He was however Hobgoblin was a stronger antagonist.
Though, Dematteis did have him just tearing out Peter's heart, with his whole "Cape Fear" style.

Having been born in the 80s, I never considered Norman Peter's greatest foe. It was Doc Ock. Norman was dead when I started reading. I had always heard how great he was.

The fact is, those stories (minus Gwen's Death) never felt as dire, when I eventually read them.

I think he is a victim of nostalgia, and much like Gwen's death created a false greatness of character, I think it also did that for Norman.

When he first came back, I liked that he was going at Peter from behind the scenes as a business man. After that, when he started psychologically tormenting Peter, wasn't that more Harry's thing?

They actually borrowed, and watered down, Harry's style to make Norman a better foe.


    Quote:
    Again, thank you. An effete, cold-blooded, calculating business tycoon goes third-world, guerrilla mercenary? No. Slott wrote Kingsley like he was Macendale, and it's one of his major failings, in my opinion. Also, handing out super-identities is more the Tinkerer's deal. Nothing in Kingsley's previous depictions could make me believe he would pivot this way.


Yeah. One of the great things about Spidey in the 80s, was how everything came together, while still operating its own space. 1982-ASM 300, does feel like one big story.

A big part of that was how menacing Hobgoblin was. You could feel his presence, even in books he wasn't in. He would show up in two panels to tease a story down the line.

MJ convinced Pete to stop being Spider-Man, but not until Hobgoblin was stopped. He was that threatening to New York.

That is actually why I love Harry an Hobby so much. Harry is a great character, and he hits Pete so close to home, he is more fun to read. Hobgoblin, he held a city in fear (or at least large factions), his stories felt like a win for team Goblin was bad news.

They represent Pete pushed to his limit in both potential ways.


I actually almost picked up ASM, before the 50th anniversary, when I heard Kingsley was back. I knew t was a smart idea not to, when I saw what they did.

I came to a realization about Slott, he is rewriting everything since 1981. That is where Brand NEw Day palced Pete, a lamer version of himself in 1981.

You say Hobgoblin is one of his biggest missteps? I say it would be easier to name his correct moves, sure a shorter list.

He messes Peter up, he turned teh character that first pulled me into comics, into a character on teh Big Bang Theory.

That is his problem all over. He fears depth, after a fashion. So many characters he writes become caricature, devoid of nuance or depth.

Hobes is a perfect example. I think he just saw "fashion designer," and boom, there was teh idea of renting out costumes and names. and effete.

It was pointed out to me once, that Slott writes for Marvel Team_up, and it is true, while Team -Up wasn't a magnet for the issues Slott brings to the tables, it was more in line with Slott's sensiblities. Though, I do remember Claremont, Dematteis, Wein, and Conway, finding room for more character in MTU, but it was more about spectacle over character than either ASM or PPSSM.

I fear I may have babbled too much about Mr. Slott.



    Quote:
    In MY continuity, the Hobgoblin is Richard Fisk. It would have been a much better story than either Leeds or Kingsley. Again, I blame Priest.


I'm not sure I would go that far, but yea, that would be a cool idea.

Kingsley did have connection and dealing with organized crime from his first appearance, but he was so much less memorable than Richard Fisk or Ned.

I don' know if Stern would have pumped him up more (he was employing MJ at the time), but I do get where you are coming from, and why it didn't seem the obvious answer to Marvel at the time.

I just Wish Marvel would do a villain that amazing again. The last SPider-villain with that much charisma and gravity to them was, what? Venom? I may be spacing on some character, but that feels right.


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,807



    Quote:
    It was pointed out to me once, that Slott writes for Marvel Team_up, and it is true, while Team -Up wasn't a magnet for the issues Slott brings to the tables, it was more in line with Slott's sensiblities. Though, I do remember Claremont, Dematteis, Wein, and Conway, finding room for more character in MTU, but it was more about spectacle over character than either ASM or PPSSM.



    Quote:
    I fear I may have babbled too much about Mr. Slott.

I find it hard to contribute in a meaningful way to a conversation about Slott's limits - mostly because I have barely read any of his work. I picked up New Ways to Die (loved it) and most of Superior Spider-man (which was new and interesting). I did pick up the Kingsley arc, and hated it. I gather from these boards that Slott has overstayed his welcome. I really hate the idea of Peter being a millionaire businessman - they destroy the marriage to stay true to the character, and then make him rich? Talk about cherry-picking what the essential elements of the character are...


    Quote:
    I just Wish Marvel would do a villain that amazing again. The last SPider-villain with that much charisma and gravity to them was, what? Venom? I may be spacing on some character, but that feels right.

I haven't been so invested in a villain since Hobgoblin was dumped in limbo. His presence loomed over the book (similar to how Doom's presence was always close in Byrne's FF), and when they dumped him in limbo that great sense of menace just evaporated. The book felt less important, more trivial.

In retrospect, I understand why other creators were reluctant to bring the Hobgoblin back to the table. DeFalco and Owlsley were big names, and their dismissal was directly tied to the Hobgoblin debacle. But giving the Hobgoblin identity to a common mercenary like Macendale was not the way to go. Again, the sense of menace around the character evaporated. I would have preferred not to see the Hobgoblin at all than have him watered down.





And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,537




    Quote:
    I love and I hate Hobgoblin Lives. I love it because I hated the reveal that Ned was the Hobgoblin, and Hobgoblin Lives finally fixed that.



    Quote:
    When I read ASM #289 it felt to me like the writers never had a clue who was behind the mask and didn't want to write about it anymore, so they revealed it was Ned and killed him just to make a problem go away. And many years later when PAD and DeFalco and Priest started blogging about it, my suspicions turned out to be right.



    Quote:
    And not for nothing, but any story that makes you think of the writers takes you right out of the story. Creator ego should never shine through in their work, and it's the reason I eventually turned against people like Priest, Byrne, and (of course) Joe Queseda.



    Quote:
    Why did I hate Hobgoblin Lives? Because Kingsley was such a disappointing choice. Almost any of the major suspects would have been better (except Flash). Donald Menken would have been a fun choice - a businessman with strong ties to the Osborn legacy. Roger Hochsburg had personal ties to Peter (although not very strong ones). The Foreigner would have been a great fit for most of the clues that we had prior to Leed's death. Even Lance Bannon would have been a fit.



    Quote:
    One thing that never made sense to me is why Georgie would have gone to Kingsley when he discovered the Goblin's Lair in the first place. "Hey Calvin Klein, look - I discovered a super-villain's lair!" It only made sense if Kingsley and Georgie were sleeping together or something - but they never really declared Kingsley as openly gay. Also, Kingsley would not have had the scientific knowledge (or access to scientific resources) to modify the Goblin formula. That alone should have ruled out Bannon, Leeds, Thompson and Kingsley.


Is Roderick gay? I just assumed because he was fictional he could somehow defy logic and somehow be a heterosexual fashion designer.


    Quote:
    Of course in a perfect world, Hobgoblin would have been Richard Fisk, Kingsley would have been the Rose, and Macendale would still be Jack-o-Lantern. But Fisk was dead by the time Hobgoblin Lives came out, and had already been revealed to be the Rose.


It may not have been a good reveal but I liked that Stern at least got a chance to show who he wanted Hobgoblin to be...and Ned got cleared.

I'm sure there are probably a few other comic mysteries that were totally changed during a writer change so it was nice to see who Stern had in mind. At the end of the day Roderick doesn't seem an illogical choice...an unethical business man with lots of cash, a flair for the dramatic, with a twin brother...I could see it.



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,032



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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 3,257


Also Roderick did use his twin to scout things out when he was punked by Phil the fake Hobgoblin. So that element of the character is gone now, but the brainwashing of doppelgangers remains.

Frankly with the fall of SHIELD, Kingsley should see about raiding SHIELD weapons caches for LMDs. He could use LMD copies of himself in his place rather then brainwashed dupes who always succumb to fear before they get killed.


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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,155


I would have prefered Richard Fisk. It was one of the ideas that came to the mind of Tom DeFalco.

It never came to fruition in the comic book, Richard Fisk being revealed as the Rose instead (after Tom DeFalco left the book).

I think that Richard Fisk being Hobgoblin would have been an awesome idea.




Since the Schemer story (his first appearance), it has been proven that Richard has combat skills and he knows how to use (& perhaps even build) high-tech weapons & vehicles.

I can see Richard combining the Green Goblin costume & gadgets with the cloak & weapons of the Schemer to make the Hobgoblin's armory.




I can also see Richard being worried that her mother might learn the truth about him.



I didn't like Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin (too crazy, too unstable and it ruined Leeds' reputation as a nice guy which he had earned since the Silver Age).

Roger Stern probably had from the start the idea that Kingsley was the Hobgoblin. Roger Stern is an excellent writer but, in this case, he used one of the oldest threadbare tricks in fiction : two brothers, one impersonating the other when it is needed. Also, contrary to Fisk & Leeds, Kingsley was a recent character and almost a stranger to the reader.

So, well, Kingsley is cool but I would have prefered Richard Fisk.

It would have been interesting if the new villain was revealed as the heir of two legacies of evil (the Osborns & the Fisks).

Richard Fisk could have become the reverse of Peter Parker ... A Byronic character, an Anakin Skywalker falling from grace ...



http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/captain_america_145-148.shtml



Unfortunately, in 2017, it is probably far too late for that ...


Many years later after the Hobgoblin story, Richard was killed by his own mother. Still, I speculate that Vanessa might have actually killed Alfredo Morelli instead of Richard because the true Fisk Jr had already entered the Witness Protection Program just after he had been arrested as the Blood Rose.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/gauntletmorellism.htm
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Alfredo_Morelli_(Earth-616)

Nevertheless, even if my speculation is correct, it is far from certain that the "true" Richard Fisk might ever come back from the dead.

This secondary character created by Stan Lee & John Romita Senior will probably stay in comics limbo a very long time.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,537



I remember reading ASM #249 as a kid and it did make me suspect Kingsley. He was the one who said "Then the Hobgoblin could be anywhere. He could even be one of us."

The mystery killer ALWAYS says that.




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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,032



    Quote:
    I would have prefered Richard Fisk. It was one of the ideas that came to the mind of Tom DeFalco.



    Quote:
    It never came to fruition in the comic book, Richard Fisk being revealed as the Rose instead (after Tom DeFalco left the book).



    Quote:
    I think that Richard Fisk being Hobgoblin would have been an awesome idea.



    Quote:
    Since the Schemer story (his first appearance), it has been proven that Richard has combat skills and he knows how to use (& perhaps even build) high-tech weapons & vehicles.



    Quote:
    I can see Richard combining the Green Goblin costume & gadgets with the cloak & weapons of the Schemer to make the Hobgoblin's armory.



    Quote:


From that point of view Richard Fisk makes a lot more sense than all other candidates given that AFAIK neither Ned Leeds nor Kingsley had ever shown talent for physical fighting. The best Ned managed to do was hit Peter Parker when he wasn't expecting it (back during Wolfman's run, when Betty cheated on Ned with Peter).


    Quote:

    I can also see Richard being worried that her mother might learn the truth about him.



    Quote:


Here Ned and Richard both make more sense than Roderick, clearly being likely to worry about the reactions of, respectively, Betty Leeds and Vanessa Fisk, while the only family Roderick Kingsley was ever shown having was his brother Daniel, who was his accomplice (and thus after an unmasking of Roderick as the Hobgoblin would have had to worry more about being arrested and imprisoned himself than about being disgraced) and whom Roderick treated like dirt. I wonder how closely Stern actually read the issues by DeFalco at al. as he seems to have overlooked this. It would have been easy to insert e.g. a mother with a heart condition into Hobgoblin Lives!, but he never bothered to clear up that matter.

Another thing which is rather odd is that the Hobgoblin addresses Mary Jane as "Miss Watson" in ASM #261 even though she apparently only started working for Kingsley ten issues later. That again was not explained by Stern but by fan theorizing.


    Quote:
    I didn't like Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin (too crazy, too unstable and it ruined Leeds' reputation as a nice guy which he had earned since the Silver Age).


Of course Ned's characterization tended to be all over the place during the Silver and Bronze Ages, very much like that of his wife...


    Quote:
    Roger Stern probably had from the start the idea that Kingsley was the Hobgoblin. Roger Stern is an excellent writer but, in this case, he used one of the oldest threadbare tricks in fiction : two brothers, one impersonating the other when it is needed. Also, contrary to Fisk & Leeds, Kingsley was a recent character and almost a stranger to the reader.


Especially as he had previously only appeared in PPSSM, the youngest Spider-Man title, and in storylines that were not all that memorable (who remembers Belladonna, the main villain of those stories?). But let's face it, the Hobgoblin mystery as envisaged by Stern fundamentally depended on Kingsley being a cipher about whom the readers at bottom knew (next to) nothing.


    Quote:
    So, well, Kingsley is cool but I would have prefered Richard Fisk.



    Quote:
    It would have been interesting if the new villain was revealed as the heir of two legacies of evil (the Osborns & the Fisks).



    Quote:
    Richard Fisk could have become the reverse of Peter Parker ... A Byronic character, an Anakin Skywalker falling from grace ...



    Quote:
    Unfortunately, in 2017, it is probably far too late for that ...






    Quote:
    Nevertheless, even if my speculation is correct, it is far from certain that the "true" Richard Fisk might ever come back from the dead.



    Quote:
    This secondary character created by Stan Lee & John Romita Senior will probably stay in comics limbo a very long time.





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